House of Commons Hansard Debates for 8 Mar 1993

Mr. Waldegrave : The hon. Lady should have welcomed the fact that the chief scientific adviser, with my strong support, has launched a campaign to bring more women into science and engineering. I am sorry that she does not welcome that fact.

Mr. Mans : How does our current expenditure on civil research and development compare with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average?

Mr. Waldegrave : We are above the average for the OECD countries in our total spend on civil research and development. Hon. Members on both sides of the House might be forgiven for forgetting that fact in the barrage of somewhat selective statistics sometimes produced by Opposition Members.

Charters

30. Mr. Pike : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many charters have specific reference to the needs of disabled people.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of Public Service and Science (Mr. Robert Jackson) : The charter calls on all public services to make sure that services are accessible to all their customers and clients. Twenty- five charters make specific reference to people with disabilities.

Mr. Pike : Does the Minister recognise that many disabled people still feel that decisions are taken for them, without involving them, by people who think that they know what is best for them but are not necessarily always right? Will he ensure that there is more involvement of disabled people and that the private Member's legislation enacted some years ago to extend facilities to disabled people is fully implemented?

Mr. Jackson : First, I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman's concern for people with disabilities. I recently wrote to him after he came to see me on behalf of a constituent about the provision of information for people with disabilities about the citizens charter. I hope that I was able to satisfy him that we are taking steps to meet his concern. The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point about the need to bear in mind the interests of people with disabilities in constructing charters. We thought long and hard about the idea of special charters for special groups, but we decided that the right approach was to ensure that all the various clients and customers of public services are taken into account in framing charters. We endeavour to make sure that the interests of people with disabilities are taken fully into account in that context.

Mr. Lidington : Is my hon. Friend aware that British Rail's policy of phasing out the use of barrow crossings is causing problems and reducing the opportunities of wheelchair users, including many such people who travel to Stoke Mandeville spinal injuries unit and the Ludwig Gutmanne stadium in my constituency? Could he please

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have a word with the chairman of British Rail to see whether other means are available to restore the opportunities of wheelchair users to travel freely?

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I shall have to go into it. I cannot answer the point immediately, but I shall follow it up with his assistance.

Ms. Hoey : The Minister must surely agree that if citizens charters are to mean anything and have any credibility, citizens must have a right to compensation when Government services are inadequate. The operation of the disability living allowance by the Benefits Agency, for which there is a citizens charter, is clearly disgraceful. Does he realise how many people are still waiting to have their claims dealt with and will he insist that all who have suffered from the delays will be compensated?

Mr. Jackson : Of course the Government recognise the problems that have come about as a result of the introduction of disability living allowance. Some 800 extra staff have been recruited to deal with the delays. Overtime equivalent to some 300 extra staff has been undertaken. Compensation has been paid in 139 cases. There is a commitment to clear up the backlog of letters from Members of Parliament by the end of March. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security is fully on top of the need to improve the position in respect of DLA.

Mr. John Marshall : Does my hon. Friend agree that even more important than inclusion in charters is the level of spending on the disabled? Will he confirm that under the Conservative Government spending has doubled in real terms? While the Labour party talks, we act and get on with the job.

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend, as usual, is absolutely right. Spending has trebled in real terms since we came to office in 1978-79. Some £14 billion is currently being spent in support of people with disabilities.

Purchaser/Provider Split

32. Mr. Wells : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what measures the Government are taking to extend the

purchaser/provider split as part of their programme of public service reforms.

Mr. Waldegrave : The principle of splitting responsibility for purchasing services from that of providing them has been established in the national health service and in local authorities for a number of years. It is now being applied in central Government through the next steps initiative and market testing.

Mr. Wells : Will my right hon. Friend give the House some examples of savings from market testing and contracting out, and are the savings retained by the Department which achieves them?

Mr. Waldegrave : I can give one example that may be of interest to the House. Recent market testing by the Ministry of Defence enabled savings to be made which allowed the retention of two front-line regiments. I can confirm to my hon. Friend that the savings are retained by the Department for spending on the services that it provides.

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Mrs. Dunwoody : Is the Chancellor of the Duchy aware that there is considerable and clear evidence that if the sort of market testing that he is talking about is extended, for example, to the income tax authorities, it will lead to real problems with confidentiality for our constituents? Before he rides that hobby horse off into the distance, will he consider its implications carefully?

Mr. Waldegrave : I have never understood why it is thought that only those of our fellow citizens who work in the public sector can keep proper rules of confidentiality. In national defence, for instance, defence contractors have for many years held secrets at least as sensitive as those held by any part of the public sector.

Charters

33. Mr. Steen : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what is his policy towards establishing a citizens charter regarding Government posts abroad.

Mr. Waldegrave : Citizens charter principles apply to all public services, here and abroad.

Mr. Steen : Is the Chancellor of the Duchy aware that the diplomatic service overseas boasts leisure facilities on a par with those of some of the best five-star hotels, with 135 swimming pools and 81 tennis courts? Just as the hotel industry is having to consider carefully how it is run, does the Minister agree that we need to find evidence of whether tennis courts and swimming pools make the civil service leaner and fitter? If he is thinking of a charter for overseas, will he consider that permanent secretaries and their families travel first class at taxpayers' expense, and that every member of staff in the diplomatic service travels club class if they have to be on a plane for more than two and a half hours?

Mr. Waldegrave : I do not find myself entirely in sympathy with my hon. Friend. I have had the privilege to be a Foreign Office Minister and I am aware of the extreme pressures under which many of our diplomatic staff work abroad. I do not think that the House would begrudge them some basic amenities.

34. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what plans he has to introduce new charters.

Mr. Robert Jackson : New charters in 1993 will cover child support, the environment, and further and higher education. Other charters, such as the parents charter, will be revised to reflect new and higher standards.

Mr. Coombs : May I prevail on my hon. Friend to encourage local authorities to undertake the production of charters, in the hope that that may do something to improve their rather poor public image? What advantage, in particular, does he see in the production of league tables so that residents can compare how their local authority performs?

Mr. Jackson : The Government do encourage local authorities to produce citizens charters and many are doing so or thinking about it. My hon. Friend refers to league tables and the Government are committed to the

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improvement of information about councils' performances. It is interesting to note that the other day the National Consumer Council welcomed the proposed publication of local authority league tables, which it described as

"a sea change in what people can find out about council services". I noticed my hon. Friend's implication that such league tables are likely to show that Labour authorities provide relatively low-quality services at high cost to the public, which is no doubt why they are so hostile to the proposal.

Mr. Matthew Taylor : In drawing up his plans for future charters, will the Minister make it clear to the House how he intends to involve consumers--the citizens--in decisions about what should be contained in the charters? Concern has been expressed, not least by the National Consumer Council, that citizens are not sufficiently involved in decisions about what should be in the charters as they are drawn up by civil servants and those who operate the services, together with Ministers.

Mr. Jackson : We encourage every Department, when drawing up a charter, to conduct some sort of detailed survey of customer opinion and to consult customers when framing the survey. I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not join those who question the money being spent to enable that new customer service to take place.

Mr. Churchill : Will my right hon. and hon. Friends reconsider their decision not to have a charter for the disabled? Does my hon. Friend agree that it is unacceptable that my constituents from Manchester Davyhulme and those from other constituencies should be confined to unheated guards vans for long journeys when are travelling on lines other than InterCity? Under a Conservative Government in the 1990s that is just not acceptable. Will my hon. Friend see that British Rail gets its act together and starts treating disabled people at least as well as the airlines do?

Mr. Jackson : I will certainly look at the case to which my hon. Friend refers. As to whether we should have charters for particular groups, such as people with disabilities or other special groups, I repeat what I said to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike). We thought long and hard about the idea of specialist charters, but we believe that it is better for people in special groups to be treated on an integrated basis with other customers and clients of public service organisations. In our view, it is not necessary to have a special charter for people with disabilities. Instead, when appropriate, such people should be taken into account when charters are being framed. Indeed, they are taken into account in the case of almost all charters, except where it would be inappropriate to do so.

Duchy Land

35. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what is the total area of land within the ownership of the Duchy of Lancaster.

Mr. Waldegrave : The Duchy owns approximately 50,000 acres of land, made up principally of 35,000 acres of agricultural land.

Mr. Skinner : Does the Minister agree that some of the money accruing from that land is part of a carefully constructed tax avoidance scheme for the Queen? Is he

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satisfied--we are not--with the fact that the Queen is able to take part in this tax fiddle while any ordinary person has to pay tax--

Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman should rephrase his question. If he wishes to make a direct criticism of any member of the royal family, he should do so by way of a substantive motion. Of course, if he rephrases his question we shall have to listen to it.

Mr. Skinner : With regard to this carefully constructed tax avoidance scheme, will the Minister bear in mind the fact that any ordinary citizen would have to pay up to seven years' back tax? For 40 years the Queen has not had to pay a penny. The least we are entitled to is seven years' back tax.

Mr. Waldegrave : The report of the royal trustees with regard to tax matters is in the Vote Office. The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is no, and to the second part yes.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that the Duchy is an outstandingly good landlord, whose tenants were delighted when, not long ago, the duke turned up for tea? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that the Duchy fund benefits many thousands of good causes and charities throughout Lancashire and that the recipients of benefit bitterly resent Labour's constant attacks on it?

Mr. Waldegrave : As usual, my hon. Friend speaks for Lancashire. I suspect that if there were a Duchy of Yorkshire we might hear more sense from the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).

Mr. Skinner : My constituency is in Derbyshire.

Mr. Waldegrave : Derbyshire, then.

Next Steps

36. Mr. Milligan : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what proportion of the civil service is now working on next steps lines.

Mr. Waldegrave : Over half of the civil service is currently working on next steps lines. This will rise to about 60 per cent. in April with the expected launch of a further group of agencies.

Mr. Milligan : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his reply. Will he please take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of Ordnance Survey, which employs

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many of my constituents, for its commitment to customer service and, in particular, for the fact that it has succeeded in computerising 230,000 maps 10 years ahead of schedule?

Mr. Waldegrave : I think that my hon. Friend is entirely right. Ordnance Survey has always been a fine organisation, but it has improved its standards markedly since it became an agency. My hon. Friend is correct in saying that it completed that magnificent programme 10 years ahead of schedule. The nation should be very proud of it.

Venture Capital

37. Mrs Gillan : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what representations he has received from industry concerning the availability of venture capital for the funding of science-based businesses.

Mr. Robert Jackson : Several of the submissions received during the White Paper consultation highlighted the importance of venture capital for innovation.

Mrs. Gillan : I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Will he accept that, recently, many science-based businesses, particularly small and medium-sized firms, have had difficulty raising finance, chiefly because of short-termism and the short-term view taken by City institutions and venture capitalists? Can he give some assurances and perhaps encourage the City to look more carefully at the small and medium-sized businesses whose activities are based on science, as it is from such businesses that the recovery in this country will come?

Mr. Jackson : There is interesting evidence from the British Venture Capital Association and its constituent companies, showing an increase in the level of support to science-based businesses from 14.3 per cent. of the business of its members in 1989 to 18 per cent. in 1991.

I appreciate the spirit of my hon. Friend's question, but the allegation about short-termism in capital markets is one which is often made but has never been demonstrated. The key point that is often overlooked is the importance of interest rates. In this country, we have tended to have relatively higher interest rates than elsewhere, particularly the United States and Japan. The achievement in reducing interest rates will help the situation. Meanwhile, the Government have acted to promote proper reporting by companies of their research and development efforts.

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