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Column 1014

Porter, David (Waveney)

Redwood, John

Richards, Rod

Riddick, Graham

Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)

Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

Shaw, David (Dover)

Sims, Roger

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Speed, Sir Keith

Spencer, Sir Derek

Spink, Dr Robert

Sproat, Iain

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Steen, Anthony

Stephen, Michael

Stern, Michael

Stewart, Allan

Sykes, John

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Thomason, Roy

Thurnham, Peter

Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)

Trend, Michael

Twinn, Dr Ian

Viggers, Peter

Walden, George

Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)

Waller, Gary

Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John

Whittingdale, John

Widdecombe, Ann

Wigley, Dafydd

Willetts, David

Wood, Timothy

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. James Arbuthnot and

Mr. Andrew MacKay.

NOES

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Barnes, Harry

Bayley, Hugh

Bennett, Andrew F.

Boateng, Paul

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Cann, Jamie

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cryer, Bob

Davidson, Ian

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Dixon, Don

Dowd, Jim

Fatchett, Derek

Flynn, Paul

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Gordon, Mildred

Graham, Thomas

Gunnell, John

Hood, Jimmy

Lewis, Terry

McAvoy, Thomas

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Meale, Alan

Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)

Purchase, Ken

Rogers, Allan

Rooney, Terry

Skinner, Dennis

Spearing, Nigel

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Turner, Dennis

Winnick, David

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Jimmy Wray and

Mr. Eddie Loyden.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Before I call the next motion, may I say that I propose to invoke Standing Order No. 39. For those hon. Members who are not familiar with the Standing Order, after the lapse of two minutes on each motion I shall call the Ayes to stand and then to sit down and then the Noes to stand and then to sit down. I shall then make a judgment as to whether there is a clear majority one way or the other. Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you might reconsider your ruling. As I understand it, that procedure has normally been used in the middle of a Bill. I cannot recall an occasion when it has been used on statutory instruments. The history of statutory instruments is of considerable importance as they all used to be taken on the Floor of the House. Only with the permission of the House are they referred to a Committee upstairs on the basis that, when they return, it will be possible for the House to express a clear view ; in other words, for all hon. Members to record precisely their vote.

May I suggest that if you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the Government wish to proceed along this line, it is possible that my hon. Friends will decide that they do not want any orders to go upstairs to Committee. As I am sure you will appreciate--

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Column 1015

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The decision is a matter entirely for the Chair. I have not consulted anyone. It is my view that it is now appropriate to invoke the Standing Order.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The wording of Standing Order No. 39 is : "Mr. Speaker or the chairman may, after the lapse of two minutes, if in his opinion the division is unnecessarily claimed". You have said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you propose to exercise your discretion. However, surely there is a responsibility upon you to tell the House why you believe a Division is being unnecessarily claimed. I have a case to put to you that-- [Interruption.] I am quoting from Standing Order No. 39, which says :

"if in his opinion the division is unnecessarily claimed". I put it to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that these Divisions are being necessarily claimed. Some of us have voted in different Lobbies on different orders.

May I draw your attention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the fact that I voted against the draft Electricity Generators (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order --

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I accept the hon. Gentleman's word. However, I made it clear that my decision would be made after a lapse of two minutes ; I did not say what that decision would be. I said that if, in my opinion, it was necessary to invoke Standing Order No. 39, I would do so.

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : As you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am the Chairman of both the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments. We have made the complaint that in 1992 the Government produced more statutory instruments than have ever before been produced in the history of Parliament. It would be a very serious departure from parliamentary scrutiny if the torrent of statutory instruments produced by the Government were not then subject to a vote on the Floor of the House. That would mean that the legislative sausage machine that the Government are using would become even worse.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I have already made it clear that the House will not be denied a vote ; the House will get its vote.

Notice being taken that strangers were present, Mr. Deputy Speaker,-- pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw :--

The House divided : Ayes 0, Noes 170.

Division No. 189] [9.10 pm

AYES

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Bob Cryer and

Mr. Harry Barnes.

NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Alton, David

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Bayley, Hugh

Beggs, Roy

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

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