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Wood, TimothyWray, Jimmy
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. Sydney Chapman and
Mr. Irvine Patnick.
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Alan Meale (Mansfield) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you reconsider yet again your decision to invoke Standing Order No. 39? As I recall, the last time that that was invoked was in 1979- - [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman should be heard.
Mr. Meale : On that occasion, 13 votes had already taken place. Surely we have not yet reached that stage in these proceedings.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I entered the House considerably earlier than 1979 ; and if the hon. Gentleman looks back he will find other precedents. In any case, we have already had 10 Divisions.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it your intention to invoke standing order No. 39 in respect of motion No. 19, which concerns the controversial issue of the common organisation of the market in potatoes, because I am keen to register a vote agin it?
Several Hon. Members rose --
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. One at a time.
Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not want to pursue the question of your ruling, but I would like you to explain how you will implement your ruling, to protect the rights--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I am quite happy to do that when the time comes.
Mr. Bennett : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Mr. Skinner.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : On the few occasions that Standing Order No. 39 has been invoked since 1970 although that has happened recently--I have been present. The occupant of the Chair invoked the Standing Order only when there were seven, 10 or a dozen hon. Members in the Chamber. On no occasion were 30 or 40 hon. Members voting--not while I have been here. On the last occasion that I recall, when we were up most of the night, only a handful of hon. Members were voting. It was relatively easy for the occupant of the Chair to see the numbers involved clearly. To do it on the basis of--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I regret that the hon. Gentleman's memory is not perhaps as good as it used to be. Mr. Harry Barnes. Mr. Skinner rose --
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. In the 1986-87 Session, voting in the last three Divisions before the Standing Order was invoked was 167 to 32, 166 to 31, and 166 to 31.
Mr. Skinner rose --
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. That is the same scale
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Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Mr. Barnes.
Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker-- [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I ask hon. Members to contain themselves. Points of order from any part the House are important.
Mr. Barnes : On a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek your further ruling in respect of the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) in respect of motion No. 19. Initially, that motion was considered by European Standing Committee A and, in a Division, the voting was four votes to two.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I have already told the House that I will consider each motion on its merits. We have reached motion No. 11 ; we are nowhere near motion No. 19.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You said that you would consider each order on its merits. As an individual Member of Parliament, I ask you to provide a procedure whereby my name is recorded as being in favour of the next order. "Erskine May" states :
"Neither names nor numbers of a minority are now announced, though the numbers appear in the Journal."
That would be insufficient to indicate that I voted in favour of the order about the nuclear power industry. I appeal to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to allow a Division so that Hansard can show that I voted in favour of the valuation order as it relates to the Scottish nuclear industry.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I hear the hon. Gentleman's appeal, but I regret to say that I cannot meet it.
Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I ask you to consider how to ensure that there is sufficient time for hon. Members to get into the Chamber to express their views--as is their right--and that that is made clear on the Annunciator? Each order deals with a different subject, and an hon. Member may well decide not to vote on, for instance, the Scottish rating and valuation motions but to vote on the social security motions, or the motion relating to potatoes. You have a duty to protect the rights of Back Benchers, who rely on the Annunciator to know what is going on in the Chamber.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. However, 15 minutes have elapsed since I announced the position, and I assume that most--indeed, all--hon. Members now know what is going on. I shall now put the Question on motion No. 11. The Question is--
Mr. Campbell-Savours : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I hope that it is a new point of order.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : It really--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Is this a new point of order?
Mr. Campbell-Savours : No, it is not.
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Mr. Deputy Speaker : In that case, I shall put the Question on motion No. 11.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.). That the draft Scottish Nuclear Limited (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 15th February, be approved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
As many as are of that opinion say Aye--[ Hon. Members-- : "No."] Order. In my opinion, the Division has been called unnecessarily. I therefore call on hon. Members supporting the motion to rise in their places. Will those against the motion do the same?
Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. There is no point of order for me.
Mr. Bennett : Hon. Members are still coming in.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Will those who are voting No please stand? They have to be counted. Will hon. Members please stand still?
Mr. Meale : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. A major difficulty has occurred because of your ruling on this Division. We on this side of the House clearly heard the words from your lips, "Clear the Lobbies." That being the case, hon. Members on this side of the House must be allowed to vote through the Lobby.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I gave adequate warning. The difficulty is that the House is not used to this procedure.
Mr. Meale : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We should like you to reconsider your ruling. The reason is that, when you uttered the words, "Clear the Lobbies", hon. Members left the Chamber and went into the Lobby, following which the Division bells sounded. Those hon. Members remained in the Lobby and missed the vote. Some of them went to other parts of the House. We ask for a further ruling.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Hon. Members make their own decisions. I made very clear what procedure I was to invoke. That procedure is laid down in the Standing Orders of the House.
Mr. Don Dixon (Jarrow) rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. When I have finished one ruling I shall be happy to take another point of order. [Interruption.] Order. Let me announce the result of that Division. In my opinion, the Ayes have it.
Mr. Dixon : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. On that occasion, you definitely said, "Clear the Lobbies." The Division bells rang and it went on the Annunciator. Then my hon. Friends went into the Lobby. May I ask you how many voted Aye? No one took any account of those who stood in favour of the motion, although the Clerks counted those who voted against it. How can you have a proper Division when there are no Tellers?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : The Clerk's responsibility is to count the minority, which he did. On this occasion it was the Noes. It may be the Ayes on a future occasion. The Clerk undertook that responsibility and reported the result to me. [Interruption.] Order. In my judgment, the Noes
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were so far below the Ayes that the motion was accepted. [Interruption.] I do not need to count. It was quite clear that there was a majority in favour of that motion.Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that all of us in the Chamber, particularly those of us who have held chairs in various capacities, understand the difficulties that you face today--as well as the difficulties that some hon. Members might face in the next three days, difficulties that could have been relieved. Am I right in thinking that the procedure under the Standing Order is that the request to stand takes place on the second call after two minutes? Will you please confirm that? May I suggest that the difficulties that we have just experienced were caused by the fact that many of my hon. Friends--and nearly myself--did not understand that the moment to stand, if there was to be standing, was then and not earlier?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I think that the hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber when I explained that I proposed to invoke Standing Order No. 39. I spelt out the implications, and the record will show that I did. The fact that hon. Members are perhaps not aware of how Standing Order No. 39 works is not a matter for the Chair. I ask hon. Members to pay proper attention to announcements from the Chair.
Several Hon. Members rose --
Mr. Deputy Speaker : For the sake of clarification, and to ensure that there is no further confusion or misunderstanding, Standing Order No. 39, for those who-- [Interruption.] Order. Will the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) do me the courtesy of listening? Standing Order No. 39 states :
"Mr. Speaker or the chairman may, after the lapse of two minutes, if in his opinion the division is unnecessarily claimed, take the vote of the House, or committee, by calling upon the Members who support, and who challenge his decision, successively to rise in their places ; and he shall thereupon, as he thinks fit, either declare the determination of the House or committee, or name tellers for a division."
Mrs. Ann Taylor (Dewsbury) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I ask for clarification? I was working in my office when the Division bells rang. The Annunciator clearly stated that there was a Division in the House, and the bells were ringing for everyone to hear. There was no way that any hon. Members working in their offices could know that they had to be in the House immediately to stand up at the appropriate time.
That meant that hon. Members who were working in their offices when the Division was called thought that they had the usual eight minutes in which to come to the Chamber. I seek your guidance on how hon. Members in that situation were supposed to know that the Division was being called on the Floor of the House in an unusual way.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : The hon. Lady will be aware that I gave full warning 15 minutes before calling the Division.
Several hon. Members rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. How can I give a proper answer to the hon. Lady if other hon. Members rise?
I gave full warning 15 minutes prior to calling the Division what the procedure would be and when I would invoke it. Hon. Members are required to keep abreast of
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what is happening here. They must use their judgment about whether to leave the Chamber to work. My judgment is to give due warning, which I did to the best of my ability.Mr. Meale : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I crave your indulgence for a second or two? Is it part of the procedure in such cases, when Standing Order No. 39 is invoked, to say, "Clear the Lobbies" and to call a Division?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Yes, it is. If I say, "Clear the Lobbies", that is part of the required procedure. I must follow the procedure of the House as laid down by the Standing Orders. I have no room for discretion in that matter. My discretion concerns whether I announce the Tellers.
Mr. Derek Fatchett (Leeds, Central) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek clarification on how you weighed the votes for the Division. I think that the responsibility of the Chair in these circumstances is to protect the minority from those who try to shout us down. The point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is this : those of us who voted No were asked to stand in our positions here. You then said that you thought that the Noes were a minority. May I say how impressed I am by your clairvoyance and perception, because nobody stood on the
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I did ask the Ayes--those who supported the motion--to stand, and all the hon. Members whom I can see on the Government side of the Chamber stood, and some Opposition Members, too. Then I called the Noes. After a delay, the Noes stood and were counted by the Clerk--[ Hon. Members :-- "How many?"]. It was clear where the majority lay. [ Hon. Members :-- "How many?"] Thirty-four. Question agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Scottish Nuclear Limited (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 15th February, be approved.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.),
That the draft Scottish Power plc. (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 15th February, be approved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
The House proceeded to a Division--
Mr. Dixon : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker--[ Hon. Members :-- "Where is the hat?"] On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. [ Hon. Members :-- "Where is the hat?"] On a point of--[ Hon. Members :-- "This is during a Division."] I rose on a point of order before the Division was called--[ Hon. Members :-- "No."]
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I regret to say that I did not hear the hon. Gentleman's point of order before I called the motion-- [Interruption.] --but I shall take the point of order now, if the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise it and it follows the procedure of the House. The Question has been put, so I should be grateful if the hon. Member would follow the procedures of the House and wear-- [Interruption.]
Mr. Dixon rose --
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Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I am happy to give guidance if the hon. Gentleman will follow the procedure of the House.
Mr. Eric Illsley (Barnsley, Central) (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will be aware that the Procedure Committee recently recommended that, when there was an alteration during a Division--[ Hon. Members :-- "What? An altercation?"]--when there was an alteration to procedure during a Division, a message should be shown on the Annunciator. I am referring to what happens when a Division is extended.
In those circumstances, it was recommended that some message should be displayed on the Annunciator to show hon. Members such as my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) who are coming to the Chamber from outside the precincts of the Palace of Westminster that they have extra time in which to vote. My suggestion is that perhaps it would be better for the House to be suspended for sufficient time to allow for hon. Members in and about the Palace of Westminster
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that that procedure is primarily for security alerts and other events of that nature.
Motion No. 12. As many as are of the opinion say Aye. to the contrary No. Clear the Lobbies.
Mr. Meale (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. For the benefit of hon. Members in the Chamber, will you tell us : is this a Division? Are Members going into the Division Lobbies or not?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : "Clear the Lobbies" means clear the Lobbies of strangers. Hon. Members have had it explained to them several times that, if they wish to take part in the Division--which is entirely voluntary-- they should remain in their places. After two minutes, if I believe it appropriate, I shall either call the Tellers, in which case there will be a normal Division, or I shall ask Members to rise in their places.
Mr. Deputy Speaker,-- having said that it appeared to him that the Division had been unnecessarily claimed, accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it, forty-two Members only who challenged his decision having stood up. Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr. Dixon : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Would you explain the procedure under Standing Order No. 39 because there seems to be a lot of confusion, not among Opposition Members, but among Conservative Members? How will you tell whether there is a consistent vote if the vote for the Noes is not declared at the end of each vote? May we be given the number of those voting against at the end of each vote, and can that be put on the Annunciator so that people outside know that there is a Division and how many are voting against the motion?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : The House is entitled to know that 42 hon. Members voted against the motion.
Mr. Martin Redmond (Don Valley) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I ask for clarification. I am sure that it would be helpful if the Clerks stood to count hon. Members. They remain seated, so they must have difficulty in counting. I understand that to challenge the
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count made by the Clerks would be to challenge your decision, Mr. Deputy Speaker and obviously I do not want to do that. However, while the Clerks remain seated, there is a possibility that they will miscount.Mr. Deputy Speaker : The House has experienced Clerks, and I think that we can rely on their ability to count.
Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker--[Interruption.] I shall put my point of order if hon. Members stop baying. It is difficult for folk like me who have a hearing aid to hear everything in the Chamber when there is such noise. Hon. Members who, like myself, suffer from that disability will be helped by other hon. Members keeping quiet when they raise a point of order. I was moving so fast that my wife could not have counted me. How you could you count me, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), That the draft Water Undertakings (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 15th February, be approved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
The House proceeded to a Division--
Mr. Campbell-Savours : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you confirm--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Where is the hat?
Mr. Skinner : He does not need a hat.
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