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Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Where is the proper hat?
Mr. Campbell-Savours : Will you confirm, Mr. Deputy Speaker--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The House insists on hats. There is one at either end of the Chamber.
Mr. Skinner : His head has only got to be covered.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hat must be on.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : Where does it say that I must wear a hat? Which page?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to wear a hat.
Mr. Skinner : He does not have to.
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Mr. Campbell-Savours : Mr. Deputy Speaker, will you confirm--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I call upon those supporting the motion to rise in their places. I call upon those opposing the motion to rise in their places.
Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman must sit down. Question agreed to.
Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As I understood the rules, an hon. Member has to be covered. I understood that the recommendation from the Select Committee on Procedure was to provide the House with two hats but, because many hon. Members felt that it was not dignified to wear a hat like that, an hon. Member was entitled simply to have his head covered. I understand that it was custom and practice for an hon. Member to put an Order Paper on his head. If you can direct us to where it says that an hon. Member has to wear one of the hats as opposed to covering his head, I shall be grateful.
Mrs. Ann Taylor : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There seems to be great concern in the Chamber about the way in which proceedings are developing. Would it be appropriate for Madam Speaker to be asked to come to the Chamber so that we might have proper rulings on these matters?
Mr. Redmond : On a further point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will be aware that Madam Speaker's predecessor allowed the practice of an hon. Member covering his head with an Order Paper. Has there been a change of practice?
Mr. Michael Connarty (Falkirk, East) : On a further point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My point of order is much more simple. In the year that I have been in the House, I have not heard three consecutive points of order go unanswered. It seems strange that we have a new procedure in the House. I have heard Madam Speaker say that she will answer one point of order before another is taken. We now have three points of order outstanding without an answer.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : My understanding is that the Select Committee on Procedure said that a hat should be worn. As the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) was provided with a hat, courtesy to the Chair suggests that he should have worn it.
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Council Tax Benefit
Motion made, and Questions put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.),
That the draft Council Tax Benefit (General) Amendment Regulations 1993, which were laid before this House on 11th February, be approved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
The House proceeded to a Division --
Mr. Meale (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Have we had the 10 o'clock motion?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : There is no 10 o'clock motion tonight. Mr. Deputy Speaker-- stated that he thought that the Ayes had it ; and on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it, thirty-five Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.
Question agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), That the draft Council Tax Benefit (Permitted Total) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 11th February, be approved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
The House proceeded to a Division --
Mr. Meale (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. When you called the previous vote, I do not know whether it was because of the noise from the other side of the Chamber, but several of my colleagues and I certainly did not hear the motion on which we were voting. Therefore, it seems that many hon. Members have been through a voting procedure on at least three occasions when they did not know the order on which they were voting. I would appreciate your guidance on where we are at present and whether the previous three votes were in order because of the lack of a number.
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Mr. Deputy Speaker : We are now on motion No. 15. I announced the previous motions very clearly.
Mr. Hugh Bayley (York) (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. For the previous two votes, I heard no announcement of the numbers voting. On one vote, I noticed two hon. Members--the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Freeman) and the right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker)--voting both Aye and No. Did the Clerks count the No votes on both sides of the Chamber? You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, could clarify the matter by giving the numbers voting Aye and those voting No on the previous two motions.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Hon. Members will know that if they vote Aye and No on both sides, they are counted on both sides.
Mr. Connarty (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is clear that hon. Members are now becoming disturbed by the Deputy Speaker's authority. My hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) asked whether Madam Speaker could be called to the House as we have now reached the stage when it is clear that some hon. Members believe that the procedures of the House are being manipulated--and the Clerks are overpaid
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I ask those supporting motion No. 15 to rise in their places. Is the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell- Savours), who is walking, voting Aye? It does not matter whether he is voting in the Gangway ; it applies to anywhere in the House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker-- stated that he thought that the Ayes had it ; and on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it, two Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.
Question agreed to.
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Redundancy Payments
(Local Government)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.) That the draft Redundancy Payments (Local Government) (Modification) (Amendment) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 15th February, be approved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
Mr. Graham : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As a comparatively new Member who has been in the House of Commons for six years, may I say that I have recently spent weeks on end in the Standing Committee on the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill where we discussed the abolition of the wages councils. On that occasion, the Government called for secret ballots and the right to have recorded votes, but here tonight we have seen Government Members standing up to vote. Is that democracy, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Will you please rule on that?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I am duty bound to operate by the proposals of the Select Committee on Procedure.
Mr. Fatchett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should like to take you back to your ruling on the point of order during a Division when an hon. Member was told to wear a hat. The penultimate paragraph of page 366 of "Erskine May" states :
"Only when a question of order arises during a division may a Member speak seated and covered."
My hon. Friend did exactly that. You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, might argue that there has been a change of practice--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. There have been a number of points of order. To which hon. Member and to which point of order is the hon. Gentleman referring?
Mr. Fatchett : I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify the matter. I was referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours).
I should like to refer to the footnotes in "Erskine May". One argument that may have been available to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that there has been a change of practice. The footnotes on page 366 refer to parliamentary debates, and it is important to put them on the record. They read :
"Parl Deb (1883) c 854 ; (1886) (1904) (1945-46)". The footnotes also state :
"See also 2nd Report from the Sessional Committee on Procedure, (1976- 77),".
Some long-serving Members will recall that there was a debate on this issue in 1979-80 and a further debate in 1983-84. There has been no subsequent debate or reference.
Mr. Speaker Weatherill always allowed a point of order during a Division when an hon. Member wore a hat or was covered in some other way. I shall refer to personal experience. Under Mr. Speaker Weatherill, I raised a point of order during a Division and I wore a handkerchief, as if I were on the beach at Blackpool. It was knotted in the peculiar seaside way and looked appropriate. Mr. Speaker Weatherill accepted that point of order.
With respect, Mr. Morris--I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker ; we have spent so much time in Committee
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debating Maastricht that you will understand my mistake--the footnotes on page 366 show that my hon. Friend the Member for Workington was in order, and it would be appropriate for you to recognise that. We all make mistakes and I think that you have made a mistake on this occasion and should allow my hon. Friend to make his point of order in the appropriate way, the way in which he was behaving. We need clarification.If we are to protect minorities, the practices of the House should not be changed from the Chair. They should be changed only with the agreement of the House, and there has been no such agreement or debate. My hon. Friends have not been able to contribute. This is an important change in procedure and should not be made unilaterally by the Chair. I contend that you are out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that my hon. Friend the Member for Workington was in order and should be upheld.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I am not seeking to change the procedure. I am guided by the Procedures Committee's recommendation in 1977, subsequently endorsed by the House, that the definition of "covered" was wearing a hat. It need not necessarily be an opera hat : it may be a handkerchief. Some of us wear handkerchiefs in that way in the summer in strong sunlight, especially those of us who are a little short of hair. It is clear that an Order paper is not a hat.
Dr. David Clark (South Shields) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Your ruling is important, because
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I did not make a ruling : I gave the reference on which the ruling was based.
Dr. Clark : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Was your reference to the Order Paper a ruling, and are you saying that custom and practice since 1977 has been changed and the understanding is that hon. Members' heads will not be deemed to be covered if they are wearing paper, as has been the custom? To clarify the situation, would it be helpful to suspend the House for a short time so that the matter can be sorted out through the usual channels, because you are making an important ruling?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I can envisage a situation where a properly constructed paper hat was appropriate, but not an Order Paper.
Mr. Connarty : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I attempted to raise a point of order on motion No. 13, which you decided to ignore and go on to a vote. As a new Member of the House, I have today been to the Library to get my speaking record in the House because people in my constituency may wish to see the contribution that I have made. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether I was recorded as voting on motion No. 13. Would I have had the right to vote because I came in when the vote appeared to be taking place? I wish to have recorded for my constituents whether or not I was involved in the vote on motion No. 13, which is very important. Despite the gesticulations of the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan), I still wish to know whether I was recorded in the vote on motion No. 13.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman knows, and I clarify, that under this procedure names are
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not recorded. However, the hon. Gentleman is known as an assiduous hon. Member and his constituents will know him as such. They will know that he was here this evening and raised an important point of order.Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you will reflect on the proceedings in the House in the past hour. I suggest that they do not do the House much credit. However, I suggest that the Opposition have a legitimate right to express their disquiet, and the attempts to curtail the voting tonight shows simply that the usual channels have failed to deal with the problems that have arisen over private Bills.
Will you reflect on the fact that, by using this voting procedure, you have become involved in those arguments and have allowed the procedures of the House not to be shown in their best light? Would it not be a good idea to revert to the normal voting procedures so that we can continue and perhaps during the next vote, in the Division Lobbies, the usual channels can sort out the many problems which have developed over private votes?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I repeat what I said at the beginning. I am taking each motion on its merits. I have not decided that every one of the motions will be taken on a rising and sitting basis, and I certainly made a note earlier to consider that.
The House proceeded to a Division --
Mr. Connarty (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wish to know whether the hat which I am wearing will fit the description of being covered--or must I turn it this way? Must I also put my hand in my jacket? Is this sufficient covering?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : In my judgment, for this evening, it is.
Mr. Barnes (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. On Standing Order No. 39, under which the votes are taking place, although I have put my name down as a Teller I am not absolutely sure what it is that we are voting on according to the Standing Order. Are the votes taking place on challenging your decision, or are they on the motions on the Order Paper?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : They are simply on whether the Ayes or the Noes have it.
Mr. Campbell-Savours (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can we be serious for a moment? [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman should be heard. I shall finish the Division and then return to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order.
So that there is no confusion, I confirm that we are voting on motion No. 16.
Question agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Redundancy Payments (Local Government) (Modification) (Amendment) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 15th February, be approved.
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RATING AND VALUATION
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), That that the draft Water Undertakers (Rateable Values) (Amendment) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 4th February, be approved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
The House divided : Ayes 143, Noes 40.
Division No. 190] [10.20 pm
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Alton, David
Amess, David
Ancram, Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs. Angela
Burt, Alistair
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)
Carrington, Matthew
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