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country. Germany will probably introduce a law shortly to enable the Germans to try people in Germany who are suspected of having sex with children in another country.If that becomes law in Germany, can I ask the Minister to monitor what happens there, see whether we can learn from that process and, if so, introduce a similar law in this country? If any of our paedophiles then went to Thailand, got caught and were deported to this country, they could be tried in this country for that offence. Without any shadow of a doubt, all the agencies--whether they be non-governmental, the Churches, Interpol or the police
authorities--need to get together to make a concerted effort to ensure that this depravity and child corruption is stamped out as soon as possible in Thailand. It is an absolute nightmare for the children who live in Thailand at this moment.
The world seems to unite when it comes to tackling the problem of saving the Amazon rain forest. Can we not therefore unite to save the children of Thailand?
2.17 am
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Michael Jack) : It gives me particular pleasure to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) on securing this very important debate. Apart from it being a very humane and proper subject to discuss, my hon. Friend is also a near parliamentary neighbour of mine, and a fellow colleague from Lancashire. I felt that he did the House a singular service in painting a vivid and moving word picture of this vile trade and by referring to some of the unsavoury and sometimes almost unspeakable things that happen to innocent children who get caught up in this disgusting trade.
In preparing myself for the debate, I watched the "Dispatches" television programme. It provided a singular service by showing vividly just exactly what is involved. My hon. Friend mentioned the recent exhibition, which I too saw. What he may have seen is perhaps not as bad as it can be, in terms of the way that paedophiles use this type of information. I visibly winced when I saw other material of this nature. Therefore, I understand the enormous sensitivities that this issue evokes. The very fact that 138 hon. Members have already signed early-day motion 1361 is a genuine sign of how seriously the House takes this issue.
I was glad that my hon. Friends the Members for Ayr (Mr. Gallie), for Castle Point (Dr. Spink), for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) and for Langbaurgh (Mr. Bates) were in the Chamber for the debate, and that they lent their support to our hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend rightly mentioned concerted action on a worldwide basis. It is important to put in context article 34 of the United Nations's convention on the rights of the child, which this country ratified in 1991 and which requires parties to take
"all appropriate national, bilateral, and multilateral measures to prevent :
a. the inducement or coercion of a child to engage in any unlawful sexual activity ;
b. the exploitative use of children in prostitution or other unlawful sexual practices ;
c. the exploitative use of children in pornographic performances and materials."
Although we signed up to the resolution, I must say that it is for individual states to determine what measures are
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appropriate to discharge that commitment, and the convention does not stipulate that extended criminal jurisdiction, which has been mentioned in this regard, must be introduced.The United Kingdom has not been complacent, but has raised the issue at an international level. Indeed, at last year's Commission on Human Rights, we co-sponsored a resolution implementing a programme of action for the prevention of the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography. At last year's United Nations General Assembly, we introduced a resolution on the problem of street children. It was adopted by consensus, and we are following up both resolutions at this year's session of the Commission on Human Rights, which began on 1 February. We have done something solid in taking up the problem.
My hon. Friend mentioned the size of the problem, which is notoriously difficult to predict. Worrying about which figure we choose should not diminish the seriousness of the problem, because if only one child is involved in this vile trade, that is one child too many.
My hon. Friend referred specifically to what was happening in Germany, and rightly suggested that the German Government's action should be monitored. I can give him an assurance that we shall monitor the German Government's action in that regard, but part of the reason they have taken the action they have is that they are constitutionally prohibited from extraditing their own nationals. They are unable to do what we would do, which is to use our own extradition procedures to send anyone charged with such vile crimes in Thailand back to Thailand to face justice there. We would also use the various powers that we have to help in getting evidence if someone were to be extradited. I shall spend a moment talking about the judicial co -operation at our disposal for help in these circumstances.
We have taken steps to aid the enforcement of criminal law where there is an international element. We passed the Criminal Justice (International Co- operation) Act 1990, which specifically enables us to assist criminal investigations in foreign countries by arranging for the service of summonses and other legal documents in this country, for statements to be taken from witnesses or for other evidence to be obtained here. The Act also provides for a person in custody to travel abroad to assist in proceedings and, in certain cases, for the search of premises here and the seizure of documents or other evidence. In that way, we are able to assist other countries to enforce their domestic law but, in the final analysis, the main responsibility must rest with them--in this case, the Thai authorities.
I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall do all we can to assist, but we should not lose sight of the fact that it is for each country to enact its own laws and to ensure that they are properly enforced, a telling point raised by my hon. Friend.
In watching "Dispatches", I took some comfort from the fact that the Thai Prime Minister twice made clear his personal concern about and commitment to dealing with the problem. If our extradition proceedings are to be brought into play, the question of getting evidence and finding persons involved in the vile trade and bringing charges against them is an important first step in the process. Some people have suggested that we might, for example, do what the Germans do. But in the few moments remaining at my disposal, I must tell my hon.
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Friend that, if we were to do so, there would be serious problems in evidential terms. He will understand that, in this country, considerable strictures govern the gathering and presentation of evidence in our courts, and it would therefore be difficult to bring cases in the simple way suggested. As I have already said, however, we shall monitor what happens in Germany.I want to make it clear to the House that, although I have emphasised our work within the United Nations, our efforts to give prominence to the matter do not stop there. The Government have taken extensive steps to ensure that the Thai Government are made fully aware of our concern about the sexual exploitation of children through prostitution. We have emphasised our willingness to assist with prosecutions where appropriate. Our ambassador has made several representations about prostitution to the Thai Prime Minister, and has assured him that his Government is urgently considering ways in which to tackle the problem. In addition, the Thai Government have made public their concern and their resolve to take effective action.
We shall, of course, continue to bring to bear whatever pressure is appropriatre in an effort to ensure that the issue is properly dealt with. The fact that the House is having a debate on the subject should assist that process.
Dr. Spink : Will the Minister take this opportunity to make the public totally aware of the fact that to go abroad and indulge in such activity is illegal and puts people at grave risk, not only from the law in this country and in Thailand, but in terms of AIDS and venereal disease? My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) strongly made that point.
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Mr. Jack : My hon. Friend raises an important point, but although a debate such as this, if properly publicised and used, can serve to inform the public, one of the problems is that around the world there is no uniform code on the age bracket at which such offences occur. That is one of the dimensions of the problem involved in bringing people to book in this country for offences that they may have committed abroad, when there are differences between the legal codes. Nevertheless, my hon. Friend makes a valid point, especially with reference to AIDS. My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley, too, drew out that aspect extremely clearly--and anyone who happened to watch the television programmes on the subject could have been left in no doubt about it.
I hope that what I have said in the limited time available has conveyed to my hon. Friend the fact that we take the subject very seriously, and that we shall put the full weight of our extradition procedures and our international co-operation at the disposal of the Thai authorities should they be able to bring charges. But I lay particular emphasis on what we can do to reinforce their resolve to tackle the problem, both through the work that we have undertaken in the United Nations and through the work that our ambassador is doing in Thailand.
I again congratulate my hon. Friend on raising the matter. We shall monitor the situation closely.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes past Two o'clock.
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