House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Mar 1993

Mr. Jim Cousins (Newcastle upon Tyne, Central) : Does the Secretary of State admit that hon. Members whose constituencies are served by the east coast main line in Yorkshire, the north-east and Scotland consider that the proposal for the preferred route to St. Pancras would be better called "Disunion Railways"? Although the point is never addressed in the document, it is clear that there will be no direct link from the east coast main line to the channel tunnel except by means of shunting through St. Pancras mainline station. Will the Secretary of State deal with that point? Why has it not been considered in any of the documents?

Mr. MacGregor : Because it does not amount to a row of beans. There will be a direct line, and there will be no shunting. The train will have to come into the station and then go out, but that happens on high-speed links all over Europe ; there is nothing very significant about it. The train will also have to stop at London, so that crews can change and border control personnel can alight. I do not believe that the system will have any impact on the speed with which passengers from Scotland and the north of England can go straight through the channel tunnel.

Mr. David Shaw (Dover) : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that maintaining section 42 of the Channel Tunnel Act 1987--which will be of great interest, and give great pleasure, to those who work in Dover's ferry industry in the years ahead--will involve no back-door subsidy through the commuter mechanism, which would contravene that section and the principles behind it? Will he also confirm that money will not be spent on the construction of the rail link until, at long last, my constituents who use the railways to get from Dover to London have some decent rolling stock on which to travel?

Mr. MacGregor : Yes, I can confirm my hon. Friend's first point : that any Government support will be used entirely to provide internal, domestic benefits for commuters and that international passengers and international services will not be affected by it. Therefore, we shall be meeting our obligations under section 42. As for my hon. Friend's second point, I cannot make a clear correlation between the two, but I hope that my hon. Friend will agree that it is right--because of the benefits to so many people in Kent as well as to the rest of the country--that we ought to proceed with the high-speed rail link as quickly as we reasonably can.

Ms Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Highgate) : Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn), can the Secretary of State tell the House why the promise that was given in 1991 by his predecessor has been broken--that the line which runs parallel with the north London line should be via tunnels, given that King's Cross and St. Pancras are virtually next door to each other? Once the trains have reached St. Pancras, will the north London line to the west of the station be used to join the west coast mainline, and will tunnelling be excluded there, too?

Mr. MacGregor : On the first part of the hon. Lady's question, from the studies that I have seen so far--clearly, this is something that I have asked Union Railways to look

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into in more detail--there will be considerable environmental benefits, on balance, from using the existing north London line. Noise mitigation and so on, would all be carried out when the two lines that are not being used at the moment come into use. As for the hon. Lady's second question, the east coast mainline services--

Mr. Prescott : We are talking about the west coast mainline services.

Mr. MacGregor : Yes, I know, but I want to make a point about the east coast mainline services. The east coast and the west coast mainline services are all important to the north and to Scotland. The east coast mainline services that currently use St. Pancras can be accommodated in a new part of the station, west of the existing King's Cross station. Most west coast mainline services go from Euston. One possibility there is the use of a travelator between St. Pancras and Euston to speed up the connections.

Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East) : Is it not a bit insulting to the people of Southend-on-Sea to put part of this glamorous and costly new line alongside the London, Tilbury and Southend line, which, as my right hon. Friend is well aware, is one of the most shamefully neglected of all British Rail's services in terms of investment and performance? Can he provide me with a clear answer as to why he now says that a great deal of taxpayers' money will go towards these rail links when a clear, specific assurance was given on 5 June 1986, in column 1187, that these rail links would not cost the taxpayer one penny, and when we were led to believe that these assurances were legally binding and could not be changed?

Mr. MacGregor : On my hon. Friend's first point, I do not see that it is at all insulting. My hon. Friend knows--I share his view--that it is very important that the London, Tilbury and Southend line infrastructure should be improved. He will also know that very recently, as a result of the public expenditure settlement that I agreed last autumn, British Rail has been able to go ahead with the announcement of a £40 million investment in the signalling on the London, Tilbury and Southend line.

As for my hon. Friend's second point, I can give him an assurance, which I repeat, that there will be no taxpayers' subsidy for the international aspects of this line and that therefore we shall be meeting our obligations under section 42 of the Channel Tunnel Act.

Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunningham, North) : Can I place it on record that the comments made by the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) in respect of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) were inaccurate, as I believe the hon. Member for Dartford now recognises? The question is why the Secetary of State could not have made a statement on this subject last Thursday instead of wasting his time in Scotland trying to enthuse people about privatisation, which nobody wants.

Does this statement not represent another example of one story before the election and a different one after it? Is it not true that after all this time there is to be yet another consultation period and yet another decade before there is a high-speed link, even between the channel tunnel and London? Can the Secretary of State confirm that, for purely cost reasons, less than one third of the distance which his predecessor earmarked for tunnelling will now

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be subject to tunnelling, which will be at the expense of the evironment? Can he also confirm that the distance earmarked for tunnelling will not include Boxley valley?

Does the Secretary of State agree that the real tragedy of the statement is that there is still no national vision for fast rail links north of London? Does he understand that it is not merely a domestic Kent issue--important though such considerations are--but that the rest of the country now awaits a strategy for fast direct links, as opposed to the dog's breakfast and fragmentation which privatisation offer?

Mr. MacGregor : On the hon. Gentleman's first point, I wanted to make the statement on Wednesday so that the House was informed as quickly as possible. On Thursday, I was fulfilling substantial engagements in Scotland with ScotRail, the Scottish pensioners-- [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman would have been the first to criticise me if I had not been able to discuss with editors the whole issue of privatisation in Scotland, with Strathclyde PTE and SPEED, an organisation which, as he will know, is concerned with freight movement from Scotland. I was carrying out that extensive programme. He would have been the first to criticise me and would have described it as an insult to the Scots if I had not fulfilled that engagement. I thought that it was extremely important to complete those serious and prolonged discussions with people in Scotland, which I found extremely useful. I also found considerable enthusiasm for privatisation among ScotRail managers.

On delays, Union Railways has produced an excellent, thorough report, and very quickly. I pay substantial tribute to Union Railways for the way in which it carried it out. Once the route was decided--I confirmed it very soon after I became Secretary of State--we asked Union Railways to carry out this work which was essential before we proceeded any further. I presume that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that we should ignore all public consultation and should not have the usual processes of getting parliamentary approval for the project. He will therefore recognise that what we have been doing in the past year is to reach the present stage very quickly, and I intend to continue as fast as we possibly can.

I can tell the hon. Gentleman, as I have already said, that there is a substantial amount of tunnelling. In only one case could there have been environmental advantages from additional tunnelling, which would have meant substantial additional expenditure of between £150 million and £200 million. We decided that the short tunnel route, which is not the cheapest option but which is more expensive than one possibility, was the right one to take.

This is a massive investment of £2.5 billion on track and infrastructure alone. People travelling to the rest of the country will benefit just as much as people from London and the south-east because journeys through the channel tunnel will be cut by 33 minutes. Exactly the same amount of time will be saved.

Several Hon. Members : On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker : Order. I have not finished. Sir Edward Heath.

Sir Edward Heath (Old Bexley and Sidcup) : May I thank my right hon. Friend for the statement, for the grasp that he has shown of the intricacies of this long-running

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project and for his obvious determination in pushing it ahead? I assure him that the people of Old Bexley and Sidcup will welcome the statement because, although passionately pro-European, they have always preferred that the fast link should run outside their borders.

Nothing, historically, can alter the fact that when the channel tunnel was suggested, British Rail said that no link would be necessary, but in 1985 it said that a link would be necessary. It is now eight years since that statement was made and we are still only in the process of making progress, which, I am afraid, is all too characteristic of the way in which this country tries to move into the modern world.

Will my right hon. Friend kindly enlarge on his statement that section 42 of the Channel Tunnel Act 1987 will be observed but will not inhibit him? Section 42 was included deliberately to prevent British Rail or other public money from being used for the purposes of looking after the environment on this scheme. As he has emphasised, a great deal is required for the environment and he is sure that it will be covered. Is it to be dealt with by public money?

Mr. MacGregor : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his opening comments. It has been my intention to move ahead on the matter as fast as we can. I am sure that my right hon. Friend recognises that today's announcement is a very important step forward in the whole process, not least in making clear the Government's determination and in clearing up the blight issues which have affected many people. That is why I was anxious to make my announcement as quickly as possible.

On section 42, the public sector contribution will come through the benefits to domestic commuters and through the services that are provided there. The precise split between the two will have to be decided in due course. I have said that we shall now engage in discussions with the private sector to work out all the arrangements for the

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joint venture. That will happen in parallel with the public consultation. The important thing today is to get ahead with the public consultation so that we can finally settle the route.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. What does "Erskine May" have to say about "a row of beans" as a parliamentary expression? Would that not give the Secretary of State the opportunity to clarify exactly what he meant when he replied to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central (Mr. Cousins)? Those of us who are concerned about the northern link want the Secretary of State to clarify why it should take no more time than was previously promised.

Madam Speaker : The hon. Gentleman is attempting to continue the exchange. I must tell him that "time's up" means "time's up".

Mr. Tony Lloyd (Stretford) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I do not want to continue questions on the statement, but I must point out that the Secretary of State failed to mention the country outside London. As a result of pressures on time, only two speakers from north of London were called. What opportunities will those of us who represent those areas, for which the link is crucial, have to put points and to have them answered by the Secretary of State?

Madam Speaker : I recognise that the matter is crucial to hon. Members, including myself, who represent constituencies outside London. As the Secretary of State said, there is to be an intensive consultation process. I hope that hon. Members can have an input there. It is true that I was not able to call the number of hon. Members who represent constituencies outside London whom I wished to call. I am afraid that questions on statements must sometimes be curtailed. I have to draw a distinction between the statement and today's other important business, with which we shall now proceed.

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Ministerial Patronage(Parliamentary Scrutiny) 4.31 pm

Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock and Burntwood) : I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for ministerial appointments to public bodies to be subject to a Parliamentary scrutiny and confirmation process through Select Committees.

The Bill is about patronage--the patronage powers of Ministers and of the Prime Minister to appoint people to public posts. My contention is that those powers are excessive, often inefficient and frequently abused. The Bill is designed to make the patronage powers of Ministers more accountable to Parliament and to parliamentary scrutiny.

The issue has a long history. From the 18th century onwards, Parliament has been fighting for its rights against Ministers who have deployed the armoury of patronage and prerogative powers to bribe and buy their way through the House. The subject invites a certain delicacy. Patronage has been described as second only to the act of love in conferring pleasure on all parties concerned. Twenty years ago, Lord Rothschild's central policy review staff studied the matter. Later, he said :

"I thought I detected some resistance on the part of the authorities to the Think Tank studying the subject patronage is a very precious and delicate commodity."

It is surely time to stop being coy about the matter. There is widespread concern in the House and in the country about the matter--and rightly so. At general elections, people think that they are electing a Government. What they do not realise is that they are also releasing the floodgates of ministerial patronage, which will sweep over and dominate the daily government of their lives. This is the appointive state--non-elected, non- accountable and full of people, chiefly men, whose main and sometimes only qualification is to be acceptable to the Ministers who appoint them. There are currently more than 40,000 public appointments in the gift of Ministers, with the Prime Minister himself standing at the apex of this pyramid of privilege.

I recently asked the Prime Minister in a written question to reveal how many public appointments he controls. Back came those immortal words :

"The information requested could be provided only at

disproportionate cost."--[ Official Report, 16 March 1993 ; Vol. 221, c. 34 .]

I suggest that there is now a disproportionate cost to our democracy in leaving such patronage unchecked. The present Government did not invent patronage. The last Labour Government made liberal use of it. What the present Government have done is to give it a crudely partisan twist. Out went the great and the good ; in came those who passed the "one of us" test. A survey by the BBC in 1985 revealed that a quarter of the chairmen of a selection of major public bodies were openly Conservative supporters. A similar survey by the Financial Times earlier this year concluded :

"if there is a new elite running Britain's public services it appears the best qualifications to join are to be a businessman with Conservative leanings."

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That is manifestly so in the new trustified health service, while it is widely understood in Wales that the most secure route to public appointment is to be an unsuccessful Conservative candidate. There is a problem about democracy here ; there is a problem about efficiency, too. To take two recent examples, it is not immediately apparent that efficient management has been the hallmark either of the just -surviving chairman of the BBC or of the recently departing chair of the West Midlands regional health authority, both of them political patronage appointments. Last year The Times noted : "Mrs. Thatcher's approach to patronage was the simple rule : those who are not with me are against me."

The Times went on to observe :

"A more tolerant use of patronage could spread the art of Government beyond a partisan ruling elite, and raise the quality of institutional debate. To exclude talented administrators and wise old heads just because they are of the wrong political colour is to impoverish political life."

Hon. Members may have noted that I have avoided the dreaded word "quango". I have done so deliberately. There is nothing quasi-autonomous and certainly nothing non-governmental about the public bodies to which I refer. We need a new word. I suggest that we call them "patronage bodies"-- perhaps "patbods" for short--so that everyone can understand what they are really about.

As patronage bodies become ever more important--as elective government is increasingly replaced by appointive government--so control, too, becomes more important. The quango cull of the early 1980s has been overtaken by the patbod growth that has followed it. The advisory committee on Hadrian's wall may have been swept away, but in have come the agencies, commissions, trusts, councils, authorities and corporations that now dominate public administration on every side.

Such bodies now account for more than a fifth of total public spending--20 per cent. more in real terms than in 1979. What distinguishes them all is the fact that they are the creatures of Ministers, and that they exist in a no-man's land of

non-accountability inhabited not by the elected but by the selected. As a recent report from the European Policy Forum--a voice not of the left but of the right--pointed out, all this represents a major transformation in our system of government. The question is whether Parliament will now take up where the 18th-century radicals left off and assert its rights in relation to the patronage state. This is not a partisan issue. It turns on the age-old question whether there should properly be power without accountability. The Bill embodies the belief that there should not. The modest proposal contained in it is that significant ministerial appointments should be scrutinised and approved by Select Committees of this House. That would convert patronage bodies into public bodies. It would also represent an affirmation of the rights of this House in relation to the arbitrary powers claimed by the Executive.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Dr. Tony Wright, Mr. Malcolm Wicks, Mrs. Bridget Prentice, Mrs. Anne Campbell, Mr. Nick Raynsford, Mr. Cynog Dafis, Mr. Calum Macdonald, Ms Estelle Morris and Mr. John Garrett.

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Ministerial Patronage (Parliamentary Scrutiny)

Dr. Tony Wright accordingly presented a Bill to make provision for ministerial appointments to public bodies to be subject to a Parliamentary scrutiny and confirmation process through Select Committees : And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 26 March, and to be printed. [Bill 166.]

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Orders of the Day

WAYS AND MEANS

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [16 March].

AMENDMENT OF THE LAW

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance ; but this Resolution does not extend to the making of any amendment with respect to value added tax so as to provide--

(a) for zero-rating or exempting any supply, acquisition or importation ;

(b) for refunding any amount of tax ;

(d) for relief other than relief applying to goods of whatever description or services of whatever description.-- [Mr. Lamont.] Question again proposed.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

[Relevant documents : European Community Document No. 4683/93, the Commission's Annual Economic Report for 1993, and the draft Decision adopting the Report.]

Madam Speaker : I draw the attention of the House to the fact that I must impose a 10-minute limit on speeches between 7 pm and 9 pm. 4.40 pm

The President of the Board of Trade and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Michael Heseltine) : The Budget sets in place one more step in our strategy for industry. When coupled with the autumn statement, it must be seen as a comprehensive response to our industrial needs. First, it provides a sound economic background against which our companies can more effectively enhance their competitiveness. Secondly, it backs our drive on the export markets. Thirdly, it addreses a range of specific measures that industry has raised with us. Fourthly, it recognises the vital role that small and medium-sized firms play in economic vitality.

No Government have done more to create a favourable climate for enterprise and wealth creation. Interest rates have been cut by 9 per cent. As a consequence, industry's costs have been reduced by £11 billion a year. The Government's privatisation programme is perhaps one of the most radical changes in the United Kingdom's economic and industrial structure since 1945.

In 1978-79, the nationalised industries received subsidies of some £2.2 billion in today's prices. In contrast, in 1990-91, the privatised companies paid £3 billion to the Exchequer. The privatised industries are achieving striking improvements in productivity. British Airways has increased its productivity by more than 20 per cent. The number of customers per employee in respect of British Gas has increased by about 19 per cent. Productivity at British Steel, which is now considered to be one of the world's most efficient steel producers, has increased

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dramatically. It now takes only 4.8 man hours to produce a tonne of liquid steel, compared with 13.2 man hours in 1979-80.

Those improvements in productivity have been passed on to consumers as lower prices and rising standards of service. Since privatisation, gas prices have fallen by 18 per cent. for domestic customers and by 40 per cent. for large industrial customers. Those industries are, in many cases, now acting as flagships for Britain in overseas markets. During the Prime Minister's visit to India last month, British Gas signed an agreement with the Gas Authority of India enabling both companies to take gas from offshore Bombay and send it through a new distribution network to more than 60,000 offices, factories and homes.

In Argentina, British Gas has won a $300 million contract to replace the Buenos Aires distribution system. The company is working as far afield as Indonesia and Kazakhstan. It is developing the Uisker oil field in Tunisia and converting the German town of Spremberg to natural gas.

Since privatisation, Rolls-Royce--

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : The Secretary of State has mentioned gas and electricity and there is much confusion in people's minds outside this place. Will the Government fully compensate pensioners, and particularly those on very low incomes, in respect of the imposition of VAT? Is it not necessary for the Government to be quite clear, before the vote at 10 pm, precisely what is to be done, bearing in mind the tremendous hardship and misery that so many people on low incomes already face when they pay their heating bills during the winter months?

Mr. Heseltine : Of course that is important and that is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer made the position clear in his Budget statement and why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister built on what the Chancellor had said when he addressed the House last Thursday. I will return to that subject when I reach that part of my speech.

As I was saying, since Rolls-Royce was privatised in 1987, its share of the world civil engine market has risen from 10 per cent. to no less than 22 per cent. Its aero-engine order book has more than doubled and currently stands at £6.7 billion. More than 70 per cent. of its output is exported. Its industrial and marine activities are also world wide. It recently won power supply contracts worth £67 million in India and the subsidiary, NEI Parsons, secured a £100 million contract for turbines in Singapore.

Ten years ago, British cars were hardly seen on the streets of Tokyo. In 1991, Rover exported 10,000 vehicles to Japan. The company produced 395,000 vehicles in 1991, of which about 40 per cent. went overseas, the bulk to other members of the single market. As I said in the House last week, British Telecom is now one of the world's foremost telecommunications companies. Last year, it won a £350 million contract to install a network for the New South Wales Government.

Our water companies are making formidable strides in overseas markets. Thames Water is expected to sign a contract for £450 million for a water supply scheme in Izmit in Turkey to build, operate for 15 years and then transfer the scheme to the Turkish Government.

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Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) : What about the unemployed in Dock road, Tilbury? What about real people?

Mr. Heseltine : I heard the hon. Gentleman say, "What about real people?" Does the hon. Gentleman believe that real people do not work for those real companies? What sort of real people does the hon. Gentleman have in mind if people who export for Britain and design and manufacture for Britain are not considered by the Labour party to be real people? I suppose that, in the language of the Labour party, the real people are those who disrupt industrial relations, try to undermine Britain and talk the nation down : the real people of the left ; yesterday's real people.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Heseltine : Here is one of them. One of yesterday's real people stands before us.

Mr. Skinner : As a matter of fact, I am making inquiries about today's real people. The Secretary of State knows as well as I do that the mining industry could do with participating in the exports to which he referred. After a 15 to 20 per cent. reduction in the value of the pound, we could be exporting coal and today's real miners could be taking part in that.

Will the Secretary of State tell us today that the 20 million tonnes of coal imported into Britain will be massively reduced and that he will launch an export drive for coal? If we are exporting all those things to all those parts of the world, why has there been a announcement today of an increase in the balance of payments monthly deficit of £1.3 billion?

Mr. Heseltine : I can help the hon. Gentleman. Yes, we can export coal the day that we produce it at a price which the export market will absorb. If the hon. Gentleman had put his mind years ago to advising his constituents about the productivity gains that we are beginning to see in the mining industry, we might not have these imports of foreign coal. The price that we have paid for the views expressed by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and his right hon. and hon. Friends and their failure to bring home the realities of a competitive marketplace to the miners of this country is now being visited on those very people.

Thames Water, as I said, expects to sign a contract for £450 million. Anglian Water has won a stake in a winning consortium for a Buenos Aires water privatisation project. North West Water, in conjunction with an Australian engineering firm, has signed a contract for 100 million Australian dollars to improve water quality in Melbourne.

That is a remarkable transformation. Not only are those privatised companies no longer loss making, in tax terms, but they are paying large sums of money to the Exchequer. They are now winning for Britain in a way in which, for the past 30 or 40 years, we denied them the opportunity even to try to.

I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) is in his place at the moment.

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West) : I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way before he goes off on one of those manic, last deckchair attendant on the Titanic

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performances. Does he not realise that the reason why the water companies are able to make flash investments in places such as Turkey and New South Wales has nothing to do with the technology which they have to offer? It has everything to do with the guaranteed and ludicrously high prices which they are allowed to charge by the over- generous terms on which they were privatised by the Government in 1989. As a result of having that guaranteed income, the companies can spend overseas the capital which they have accumulated from the ordinary water and sewerage users in the United Kingdom. It is capital which we, the taxpayers, have provided. It is nothing to do with the skills of the companies.

Mr. Heseltine : Here we have the revisited Labour party. This is the Labour party which does not want to see real people involved in making real products. We now have a new concept : if a privatised British company goes out and wins in the marketplace of the world, somehow it is doing so because it is taking on loss-making contracts. That is what the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) said. British companies are not winning on their merits. They are winning contracts because, somehow or other, they are being artificially supported in the domestic marketplace.

What sort of message does the hon. Gentleman think that he is sending to countries that are considering taking British tenders? The message has come from the British Labour party that it is a giant fix--that these are not competitive tenders but have all been sorted out on the back of the domestic market by the British Government. I hope that all those people out there who are selling for Britain are listening to this debate and to the support that they are getting from the Labour party in the House. Labour Members of the revitalised Labour party say that they are backing Britain. They are backing Britain everywhere except when it comes to winning contracts in the overseas marketplace. If the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) were here today--

Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) : Get on with it!

Mr. Heseltine : The hon. Gentleman should not worry : I shall get on with it. The hon. Member for Dunfermline, East said :

"The central questions are how we invest in people for the future, how we invest in industry and how we invest in the social and economic fabric of our country to ensure that we will have not only rising production in industry but rising standards of living."--[ Official Report, 17 March 1993 ; Vol. 221, c. 296.]

That was the great sort of interrogation to which the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary were subjected by the hon. Gentleman. What is happening to improve the living standards? What are the facts? As a result of the changes which I have been talking about, real spending on the national health service in England has increased by 60 per cent. since 1979. There are 19,000 more doctors and dentists and almost 38,000 more nurses and midwives, and 45 per cent. more acute in-patients and day cases are treated each year.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster) : Real doctors, real nurses, real patients.

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Mr. Heseltine : My hon. Friend is right : this is another example of real people doing real things because a Tory Government have made it possible.

The investment programme in the privatised water industry is heading for an additional £30 billion by the end of the century. There has been record public expenditure on roads and the urban programme has been transformed. The essence of the matter is that, while Labour Members continue to talk about these problems, the Tory Government continue to do something about them. There has been much comment about the Chancellor's commitment to extend VAT to fuel bills. That applies with a rate of 8 per cent. in the year starting 1994 and moves to the full rate in April 1995. The Chancellor made his position clear in his Budget speech. On Thursday, the Prime Minister told the House that there would be extra help for less well-off pensioners and other people on low incomes. They will get the extra help from next April before the higher fuel bills come in. That help will be additional to the future increases in pensions and other benefits which will take place automatically. Cold weather payments will also be adjusted to reflect increases in fuel costs. I was intrigued to read in The Observer that the Chancellor and I were engaged in a furious row on the subject. Apparently, I was furious that I had not been consulted. Perhaps I may say a word about the matter. I was consulted in an orderly way. I made no protest, for the simplest of all reasons--I shared the Chancellor's judgment that it was necessary to raise taxes in the Budget.

Of course any tax increases are likely to be difficult, but, frankly, I am not prepared to cop out of the difficult tax decisions on the most contemptible of arguments--that I agree with what the Chancellor is doing in principle, but I disagree with some specific examples of the difficult decisions which he must take. That is the sort of stuff of which Opposition arguments are made. That is the sort of argument which the Labour party relishes. Indeed, it is the sort of argument which keeps Labour Members pinned to the Opposition Benches.

Why did not The Observer take the trouble to check the facts about this great row between me and the Chancellor? It cannot be because it did not know exactly how to get hold of me. That cannot be the case, because I received a telephone call from The Observer on Saturday wanting to take my photograph. The House will be delighted that I turned down that extremely generous offer. If the picture editor of The Observer knows how to find me, is it too much to think that the serried ranks of industrial and political correspondents somehow cannot manage the same trick--or were they frightened that, if they put to me the straight question, they would get the truth and the truth would deny them any sort of headline at all?

I can see that this will be the revisiting of the inglorious past of the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook). This afternoon he will be in his element. If ever there was a story tailor-made for the hon. Gentleman, this is that story. There are millions of pensioners to frighten and spectres of ill-health and hardship to conjure up. The hon. Gentleman knows the arguments backwards, because, over the years, he has invented most of the arguments backwards. He is the seasoned practitioner on whom all those people out there will wish to make a judgment.

In The Times of 14 December 1987, the hon. Gentleman described the Government's intentions as to

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