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Mr. Livingstone : I hope that I can remember what I was going to say.

How can we report progress when the points that we have made have not been answered? We have had tremendous assistance from the Opposition Front Bench : I have listened to our leading spokespeople trying to explain the Government's policy, often much more clearly

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than Ministers and, seemingly, often with much greater agreement than can be seen on the Conservative Benches. Ultimately, however, these remain matters of opinion.

We need the Chancellor and senior Law Officers here to give definitive rulings on the Bill. What would be the impact on the Chancellor if the Bill were passed and we found that the independence of our own central bank were adversely affected? Appointees to the national central banks will serve a five-year term, but we have received no assurance that the system could not be abused politically. Could an outgoing Government stack the board with people on five-year terms so that an incoming Government would be stuck with them?

It is interesting that the hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett- Bowman) was reading a newspaper beyond the Bar of the House. She was most probably looking for an account of the debate, but she will not find it because the key issues were decided after the press had gone to print. They will have to compete with today's news. How much of the debate, which should be reported to the British people, will be lost because of momentous events in Russia and elsewhere in the world? The debate should be held in prime time. We should ensure--

Mr. Barry Porter : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. I am seeking some information. I am listening with great interest and some amusement to the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) and with less interest and amusement to the Cryer-Skinner axis. How long may the debate on the motion to report progress continue? It seems that some members of the Opposition are trying to prolong the debate for no particular reason.

The Chairman : That is a judgment for the Chair.

Mr. Livingstone : It is certainly no part of my plan to prolong the debate, and I make that absolutely clear. I am prepared to say what I want : I want some honest answers. I should be prepared to sit down immediately if we could see the Chancellor's happy form wandering through. We must be told what deals have been done. Is making progress something that has been agreed with the Liberal Democrats and the Welsh nationalists, who were all in the same Lobby earlier? We want to know.

Mr. Kevin Hughes (Doncaster, North) : The Chancellor will not come walking through because he is probably too busy in a Cabinet meeting, deciding how many pits to close.

Mr. Livingstone : It is extremely worrying. How will reporting progress affect the prospect for proper cross-examination of Tarzan later today when he tries to close what remains of the mining industry? I cannot remember his title--is it the President of the Board of Trade, el presidente, lord protector, or whatever he chooses to be known as? The debate must be properly concluded. It would be an insult to the British people if, after a long debate, most of which has taken place when the Galleries were empty because who will come to sit here

The Chairman : Order. The hon. Gentleman knows the rules of the House.

Mr. Livingstone : Nobody else is here but us little mices. The reality is--

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The Chairman : Order. The hon. Gentleman's little mouse was in bed, if I heard him correctly earlier.

Mr. Livingstone : Only for five hours, Mr. Morris. I feel that I could have done with another five hours.

Mr. Chisholm : Some of us have not slept at all because--I say this genuinely--we have been waiting for the Minister to reply to the debate. The group of amendments was brilliantly introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies), who went through the treaty in a most illuminating way. Anyone who heard his speech will agree with that. He opened up the issue of stage 2 of the treaty. We are waiting for a Minister, preferably the Chancellor, to reply to the many points that my right hon. Friend raised. Some of us believe that the Chancellor and other members of the Government have been trying to pull the wool over their Back Benchers' eyes to gain their votes without telling them the truth about what is involved in stage 2 and how it affects exchange rate controls and other controls. As my right hon. Friend said, there is a seamless web from stage 2 to stage 3. That aspect of the debate must be dealt with. I have gone without sleep for 36 hours to wait for a reply and I shall not sleep happily until I have heard from a Treasury spokesman.

Mr. Livingstone : I seldom sleep happily when I have heard a Front- Bench Treasury spokesperson speak on any subject.

The Committee decided the way in which we should consider the legislation. Under your guidance, Mr. Morris, the various amendments were arranged into coherent groups. Some of us felt that we should simply start with one amendment and work our way through to the end and perhaps still be here in the year 2000. But you, in your wisdom, Mr. Morris, grouped the amendments. We are now being asked to break off the debate before we have been able seriously to consider the totality of what you thought should be examined together. For instance, we have not discussed amendment No. 400 and before we report progress we should do so. We have not really discussed in any detail amendment No. 210, tabled by the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash), which would have tremendous implications for exchange rate policy. Such matters have a dramatic impact on the earlier stages of the debate. It is nonsense to try to shear the debate in half. We cannot report progress halfway through surgery ; we should complete the surgery.

11.45 am

Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda) : My hon. Friend has been castigating the Liberal Democrats heavily for their secret deal and the way in which they have cosied up with the Government to get this important business through. It has been discussed through the night and perhaps now it will not receive the publicity that my hon. Friend says that it should. Does my hon. Friend realise that the Welsh National party took part in the deal, too--[ Hon. Members :-- "And the Scots."] Last night the Scottish nationalists voted for the closure, but the Welsh nationalists, as part of the deal that they struck three weeks ago on the Committee of the Regions, are continuing to cosy up with the Government, and they have driven through provisions of vital consequence to Wales to be discussed in the middle of the night.

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Mr. Livingstone : I share my hon. Friend's worries. Those proceedings seem to show all the worst aspects of politics. Deals have been done out of sight of the public and out of sight of the Chair, in the crooks and crannies of this place--[ Hon. Members :-- "Nooks."]--I mean, the nooks and crannies--in the nooks by the crooks.

Mr. Bill Walker : I happen to think that the Government were right to move the motion and I shall tell the Committee why. Those of us who, unlike the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone), have been here all night believe that we should have the opportunity to continue the debate, to which we wish to contribute, with people who are awake and listening. I wish to contribute because these matters will considerably affect Scotland and, indeed, the constitution of the United Kingdom and this unitary Parliament in a way that could lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom. With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, he should know that the Ministers have sat through the entire debate. The right time to continue it will be when we are all a bit fresher and they have had the opportunity to recharge their batteries and the debate can be scheduled at a time when I hope that it will still catch the attention of the media.

Mr. Livingstone : The hon. Gentleman offers a sensible opinion. If we were being offered a serious debate which would start and finish at a reasonable time, that would unite the Committee. But what happens is that we do not know what will happen until 10 o'clock, and then someone may jump up to move a motion ; perhaps we will debate through the night and perhaps we will not. That is not a serious way in which to conduct business. We cannot report progress when people are staggering around. Not everyone has your resilience, Mr. Morris. Many of us feel a lot more ragged at the edges, even though we may have managed to get a bit of shuteye. I dread to think about the poor people who have been up all through the night, such as some of my right hon. and hon. Friends, who are now looking quite dragged.

Mr. Bennett : My hon. Friend and I have taken up quite a bit of time this morning. Does he agree that the whole exercise could have been stopped if a Minister had told us what the Government intended to do for the rest of the day? If they intended to return to the Bill, with the Chancellor making a statement at the beginning of a debate that would end at 10 o'clock, that would be a rational way to behave. It is most objectionable--

Mr. David Davis (Boothferry) rose in this place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put :--

The Committee divided : Ayes 276, Noes 204.

Division No. 210] [11.48 am

AYES

Adley, Robert

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Alton, David

Amess, David

Ancram, Michael

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Ashby, David

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Baldry, Tony

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Beresford, Sir Paul

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia

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Column 1204

Bowden, Andrew

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs. Angela

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butterfill, John

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Churchill, Mr

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Cormack, Patrick

Couchman, James

Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Devlin, Tim

Dickens, Geoffrey

Dicks, Terry

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Duncan-Smith, Iain

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Sir Anthony

Eggar, Tim

Elletson, Harold

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Evennett, David

Faber, David

Fabricant, Michael

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Fishburn, Dudley

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Foster, Don (Bath)

Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

Freeman, Roger

Gale, Roger

Gallie, Phil

Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan

Garnier, Edward

Gillan, Cheryl

Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Gorst, John

Grant, Sir Anthony (Cambs SW)

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Grylls, Sir Michael

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hanley, Jeremy

Hannam, Sir John

Harris, David

Haselhurst, Alan

Hawkins, Nick

Hayes, Jerry

Heald, Oliver

Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Hicks, Robert

Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.

Hill, James (Southampton Test)

Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)

Horam, John

Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Howard, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)

Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hunter, Andrew

Jack, Michael

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Johnston, Sir Russell

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mo n)

Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Key, Robert

King, Rt Hon Tom

Kirkhope, Timothy

Kirkwood, Archy

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Knight, Greg (Derby N)

Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)

Knox, David

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Leigh, Edward

Lennox-Boyd, Mark

Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

Lidington, David

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Llwyd, Elfyn

Lord, Michael

Luff, Peter

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

MacKay, Andrew

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Madel, David

Maitland, Lady Olga

Major, Rt Hon John

Malone, Gerald

Mans, Keith

Marland, Paul

Marlow, Tony

Marshall, John (Hendon S)

Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Mates, Michael

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Mellor, Rt Hon David

Merchant, Piers

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

Milligan, Stephen

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)

Monro, Sir Hector

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

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