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"Such conventions may stipulate that the Court of Justice shall have jurisdiction to interpret their provisions and to rule on any disputes regarding their application, in accordance with such arrangements as they may lay down."

I understand, as I think the whole Committee understands, that before such a convention can be adopted it has to come back to this Parliament for approval under, as the treaty says, "respective constitutional requirements."

So far we have not had a full definition of what shall be the United Kingdom's constitutional requirements. Perhaps the Attorney-General will refer to that. That phrase appears three or four times in the treaty and it is fundamental. It will also apply to further amendments and there is no guarantee that the treaty will not be further amended before 1996. Who knows, there may be need for a further adjustment and the treaty may come back for further constitutional debate and agreement.

I hope that such a constitutional provision would be defined by an Act of Parliament. Would it be appropriate for a convention concerning home and judicial affairs related to the domestic arrangements of the United Kingdom to be dealt with other than by an Act of Parliament or a change to existing legislation, which would require a small Act of Parliament? What is the scope and probability of what the conventions would contain? They are listed in article K1.

One of the features of the reportage of these debates has been the feeling that we are going through the treaty line by line. To some extent we are doing that in so far as procedures allow, and there is a feeling that it is all terribly boring. It is said that people outside cannot understand the debate and that the Committee is following arcane procedures. I have a horrible feeling that in future when the European Court of Justice makes a ruling, as it did in relation to VAT on construction, people will say, "When did Parliament agree to that?"

The so-called Trevi arrangements clearly intend that there shall be conventions and those conventions will affect the matters set out in article K1, which talks about :

"1. asylum policy ;

2. rules governing the crossing by persons of the external borders of the Member States and the exercise of controls thereon ;". One cannot get much more basic than that about border control. "3. immigration policy and policy regarding nationals of third countries ;

I shall not quote the subsections, but they relate to conditions of entry, conditions of residence and the combating of unauthorised immigration.

"4. combating drug addiction in so far as this is not covered by 7 to 9 ;

5. combating fraud on an international scale in so far as it is not covered by 7 to 9 ;

6. judicial co-operation in civil matters ;

8. customs co-operation ;

9. police co-operation for the purposes of preventing and combating terrorism, unlawful drug trafficking and other serious forms of international crime, including if necessary certain aspects of customs co- operation, in connection with the organisation of a Union-wide system for exchanging information within a European Police Office (Europol)."

I have read those into the record because it is unlikely that United Kingdom citizens are fully aware of some of the treaty's contents. I am worried that this title is presently excluded from the Bill. However, the powers of the European Court of Justice are not. As we know, that court is one of the foundation and fundamental institutions of the European Community and, according to the Foreign

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Secretary and the Prime Minister, it is the inner trunk that is supported by the outer pillars. One of the outer pillars, title VI, has the European Court of Justice.

5.15 pm

I have written to the Foreign Secretary about the matter and he kindly wrote to me on 17 March. His letter clarifies the matter, but is rather surprising. I asked him about article K3.2(c) being outside the institutions of the Community and suggested that his claims and that of the Prime Minister about the supports of the edifice were a little exaggerated.

Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent) : I am listening with great attention to the hon. Gentleman. He gives the impression that, if the general public understood that some international issues were included in one form or another in the treaty, they would instantly repudiate it. Surely the reverse is the truth. Just as the international law of the sea is justiciable in an international court, a whole range of international problems that are growing in intensity require international treatment. Many of my constituents would be exceedingly relieved if problems such as international terrorism could be dealt with in that way.

Mr. Spearing : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for intervening on that issue. His intervention illustrates the theme of the arguments of many hon. Members, that the real content of the treaty of European union-- which is the correct title of the treaty--is not as well known as it should be. It is not, and the Government, despite issuing a few publications, do not want it to be better known. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office enters the Committee at just the right moment. He knows that I and my hon. Friends, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), and some Conservative Members support a private Member's Bill called the European Union (Public Information) Bill. It sets out a statutory procedure, which may get more publicity later, by which hon. Members will know what is in the Bill that is before the Committee.

I shall not stray too far from the subject of the debate, but one of the matters contained in our Bill, if the Government allow it to go through-- they have objected to it on 15 or 16 Fridays--

The Chairman : Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not clear about what I said earlier. The matter that he is discussing is out of order. Perhaps he will return to discussing the European Court of Justice about which he was making an interesting contribution.

Mr. Spearing : I was questioned by the hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) and--

The Chairman : Order. The hon. Gentleman is an experienced member of the Committee and should not be tempted to go down that route.

Mr. Spearing : I shall return to the correspondence from the Home Secretary.

Sir Teddy Taylor : Before the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) get too excited and optimistic about this great new opportunity, would the hon. Member for Newham (Mr. Spearing) remind him and the Committee that under article L, which

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we are discussing, a common foreign and security policy and justice and home affairs are excluded from the jurisdiction of the court?

Mr. Spearing : Some of those matters might have been cleared up if the Government had not taken the action that they did.

Mr. Rowe : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. I would not want it recorded that I was tempting the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) down the route that he chose when he answered my question, because my question was rather different.

The Chairman : That is firmly on the record and clearly the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) did not hear the hon. Gentleman's intervention with sufficient clarity. Either way, perhaps we may return to the subject of the European Court of Justice.

Mr. Spearing : In his letter to me dated 17 March, the Minister of State wrote :

"As for the potential role of the European Court of Justice under Article K.3(2)(c), you misunderstood the jurisdiction the Court might be given. It would not be the jurisdiction it now has under EEC treaties, nor would its rulings be binding in Community law. It would be ad hoc jurisdiction, conferred and regulated by a member state convention outside the EC framework to interpret that convention and to settle disputes on it. This is exactly the present position on the convention on mutual recognition and enforcements of judgments among the member states agreed in 1968 pursuant to article 220 of the Treaty of Rome. The European Court of Justice rulings on the 1968 convention are given force in UK law not by the European Communities Act but by the 1982 Civil Jurisdiction Act."

That may be news to some of us. I have no doubt that the lawyers among us, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies), may be familiar with that matter.

It is interesting to learn that the European Court of Justice has vires and power in the United Kingdom by Acts of Parliament other than the European Communities Act 1972 and other matters relating directly to it.

That information may be important. No doubt the Attorney-General will confirm when he replies that that which is written into the home affairs article that I just quoted and the power of the European Court of Justice is given dual authenticity by the treaty itself--which is not particularly the concern of the House--by direct legislation and another Act of Parliament.

I put down a marker now because if such a convention comes before the House in due course--which I hope will require another Act--we should have a full explanation, because we would then be putting ourselves under direct European Court jurisdiction on important matters that are claimed to be intergovernmental. Those matters, and others to which the hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) referred, are best dealt with in that way, rather than within the rigidities of the European Community as originally established, its central institutions, or the Act of European union that is now being debated.

Mr. Timothy Kirkhope (Lords Commissioner to the Treasury) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put. Question put, That the Question be now put :--

The Committee divided : Ayes 278, Noes 221.

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Column 952

Division No. 201] [5.23 pm

AYES

Adley, Robert

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

Amess, David

Ancram, Michael

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Ashby, David

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Baldry, Tony

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Beresford, Sir Paul

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia

Bowden, Andrew

Bowis, John

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs. Angela

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butterfill, John

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Churchill, Mr

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Colvin, Michael

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Cormack, Patrick

Couchman, James

Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)

Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)

Dafis, Cynog

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Dickens, Geoffrey

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Sir Anthony

Dykes, Hugh

Eggar, Tim

Elletson, Harold

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Evennett, David

Faber, David

Fabricant, Michael

Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Forman, Nigel

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Foster, Don (Bath)

Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Freeman, Roger

Gale, Roger

Gallie, Phil

Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan

Garnier, Edward

Gillan, Cheryl

Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Grant, Sir Anthony (Cambs SW)

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Grylls, Sir Michael

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hanley, Jeremy

Hannam, Sir John

Hargreaves, Andrew

Harris, David

Haselhurst, Alan

Hawkins, Nick

Hayes, Jerry

Heald, Oliver

Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Hicks, Robert

Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.

Hill, James (Southampton Test)

Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)

Horam, John

Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Howard, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hunter, Andrew

Jack, Michael

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Johnston, Sir Russell

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mo n)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)

Key, Robert

Kilfedder, Sir James

King, Rt Hon Tom

Kirkhope, Timothy

Kirkwood, Archy

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Knight, Greg (Derby N)

Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)

Knox, David

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Lang, Rt Hon Ian

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