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House of Commons
Thursday 25 March 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
British Waterways Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Crossrail Bill
(By Order)
East Coast Main Line (Safety) Bill
(By Order)
Greater Manchester (Light RapidTransit System) Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Woodgrange Park Cemetery Bill
[Lords](By Order)
River Humber (Upper Burcom Cooling Works) Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 1 April.
British Railways (No. 4) Bill
(By Order)
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [8 February], That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Debate to be resumed on Thursday 1 April.
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Oral Answers to Questions
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
Beef Special Premium
1. Mr. Pickthall : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he will be taking to reduce bureaucracy involved in the beef special premium.
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Selwyn Gummer) : We are operating the new beef special premium scheme as simply and as flexibly as we can, within the framework laid down by the European Community rules and remembering the need to make sure that public money is fully accounted for.
Mr. Pickthall : Does the Minister agree with Mr. Richard Cowan, the head of the Ministry's beef division, that no sane person could have devised the beef special premium scheme? Does he agree that the introduction of the CID passports will create immense problems for farmers, particularly in relation to the larger cattle markets? Does he further agree that in conjunction with the integrated administration and control scheme--IACS--bureaucracy, which will come in too late for farmers, they will have too little time to complete the forms, so many of them may be brought close to despair? Will he further agree that if he can take decisive steps to ameliorate this nonsense, he will have done something tangible to put alongside the vaunted campaign by the President of the Board of Trade to reduce over-regulation and red tape?
Mr. Gummer : I am extremely enthusiastic about getting rid of over- regulation and red tape. That is why I introduced a Bill to abolish the milk marketing boards and to take powers to abolish the Potato Marketing Board. I am sad that the hon. Gentleman was here voting against both those deregulation measures two days ago. The beef arrangements are not what I should like, because there are two payments of premium, not one. One would facilitate a simpler system, but, because of this system, we have to have what we propose, and it will be as simple as we can make it.
Under the IACS scheme we will pay out large sums of money to the public. Farmers will have six weeks to fill in the forms, which are as simple as we can make them. They have been carefully written--I have taken great care over them. I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that farmers will be pleased with the results, which will be much better than those in many other countries.
Mr. Marland : Is my right hon. Friend aware that in addition to the extra office work that this involves, it will also involve farmers in a considerable amount of extra work handling cattle--they have to be handled on several more occasions, to check their tags and the documentation? My right hon. Friend will not be aware, but he may be interested to know, that my next-door neighbour has 200 cattle--[ Hon. Members-- : "Ask a question."] I have asked a question. It took three men almost half a day to sort those cattle out. Is it really impossible to go back to the old system?
Mr. Gummer : I am sorry, but it is impossible ; otherwise, my hon. Friend's neighbour would not be able
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to get the money that he deserves, and it is likely that the money would go to people who should not get it. If my hon. Friend's neighbour fails to get the money that he wants, deserves and needs, the first person to whom he will complain will be my hon. Friend. I am insistent that he should not be put to that trouble as well.Mr. Tyler : May I press the Minister a little more on the timing of the integrated administration and control scheme forms? He said just now that farmers would have six weeks to fill them in. Can he guarantee that the forms will be in farmers' hands by 1 April, All Fools' day? Can he tell us, if he cannot give that guarantee and six weeks cannot therefore be used for the purpose, whether he will postpone the deadline?
Mr. Gummer : There will be no question of a delay, because we are trying to stop fraud throughout the Community. The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends are always pressing on that matter, and I entirely support that. We will meet the deadline. The forms will be out to farmers by 2 April--I chose that date as being a little more elegant than the one the hon. Gentleman would like--and that will give people six weeks to fill in the forms.
We have continually reminded farmers that they will need to have certain maps beforehand. Press releases have again been issued this week reminding people of the need to do that. The Ordnance Survey has done its best to provide those facilities and, as long as people get in touch with it before 17 April, they will have the full one-stop shop arrangements from the Ordnance Survey. My fellow Ministers and I will be available to help them in that respect. We will do everything that we can to ensure that Britain does better than anyone else.
Mr. Marlow : We all sympathise very deeply with the difficulty in which my right hon. Friend finds himself. However, if the scheme runs into the sand, as some people believe is likely, could my right hon. Friend send a party to Italy to see how they do it there, because I am sure that they will have it fixed up quite nicely?
Mr. Gummer : If my hon. Friend had supported the Government in the Lobbies last night and on previous nights, we should be in a position to deal with such matters much more effectively. If my hon. Friend would put his vote where his mouth is, that would be much more helpful.
English Fishing Industry
2. Mr. Austin Mitchell : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the state of the English fishing industry.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Curry) : The most pressing immediate problem facing the fish catching industry is the weak state of the market.
Mr. Mitchell : Instead of blaming the fishermen for the bankruptcy that they face and instead of compounding that bankruptcy by the insanity of days-at-sea limitations, why does not the Minister act ? Why does he not deal with the small haddock crisis by increasing the minimum landing sizes ? Why does he not ban the landing of round fish ? Why does he not increase mesh sizes ? Why does he not deal with Russian imports on a temporary basis, with a dumping ban ? Why does he not provide the same kind
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of financial support for the industry as that provided by the French ? Why does he not suspend the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill and talk to the industry ? Most of all, why does he not stand up for fishing instead of lecturing [Interruption.]Mr. Curry : And why does the hon. Gentleman not think for himself instead of simply repeating every prejudice of the fishing industry ? He would do fishermen a greater service if he did that. And why does he not think of his own constituents and the large number of people in the processing industry whose jobs depend on an adequate supply of fish ? We will tackle the problem of small fish if the whole of the British industry will agree. We are asking its opinion and we will await the response from Northern Ireland and Scotland. I can act only if there is agreement. We will wait and see whether there is agreement. I have my doubts.
Mr. Harris : If there is another blockade by fishermen tomorrow--we hope that there will not be--will my hon. Friend accept that such action stems from a feeling of despair among many of our fishermen, not least in the south-west ? However, will he cast some light on imports, particularly from Russia, and tell us exactly how much fish is being imported from Russia and how much cod is being landed by our own fishermen ?
Mr. Curry : I hope that the industry will not resume its saga of blockade, demonstration and destruction of fish, particularly as recent signs are that fish prices have firmed considerably. That is what we said would happen. Perhaps that has happened because fishermen have been demonstrating so much that they have not been catching so many fish and fewer fish have been landed.
The prices of cod, haddock and plaice are roughly at last year's level and I am glad about that. That is very good news indeed. However, it shows that the whole of the problem does not lie with imported fish. As the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) acknowledged implicitly, there is a problem with small fish in the marketplace. There have also been very heavy landings of cod in Humberside. Some estimates state that twice as much cod is being landed as was landed this time last year from the north Norway fisheries.
It is difficult to know the precise quantities of Russian fish. Some of it is imported by the British fishing organisations themselves. However, it is certainly not enough to account for the whole of the problem in the market. We must look within our own industry to discover the reasons for some of those problems. If we look objectively, we can find the answers.
Mr. Salmond : Are not the short tempers and insults from the Government Front Bench a combination of panic and guilt about the situation in the fishing industry? When the Minister meets the English fisheries, will he synchronise that meeting with the Scottish fisheries Minister so that they both accept their inescapable responsibility for the destabilisation of the fish market at the present time? What measures is the Minister taking to improve the situation for English and Scottish fishermen?
Mr. Curry : The English and Welsh fishermen are telling us at the moment that they wish to ban imports of Russian cod. However, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation tells us that it does not want to ban those imports because it depends on the Klondiking fee for the sale of herring later
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in the season. As the two major parts of the industry are diametrically opposed, it makes it more difficult than it would be for fisheries Ministers if the two parts held the same point of view, and that point of view was sensible.Sir Peter Emery : Will my hon. Friend time and again continue to repeat, for all the people of the fishing industry, the need for conservation? The sort of attacks that we have heard today do not take any account of the need to safeguard fish for the future, which we shall not have without the proper conservation measures.
Mr. Curry : I will certainly repeat that. My hon. Friend will be happy to know that we think that we are very close to agreement with the industry on a fully fledged conservation forum, to look at all the conservation measures, in which the Scottish and Northern Ireland industries will participate. The only problem is that, yesterday, the English fishing industry suggested that it was getting last-minute hesitations because it wished me to defer the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill entirely before it would talk. As we have made it clear that that was not a possibility and that technical conservation cannot provide all the answers, it would be very silly if it withdrew from that forum at the last minute. Conservation means the future of the fishery--if there are no fish, there is no future. Fish depend on conservation.
Mr. Morley : Does the Minister accept his responsibility for fisheries management? What kind of management is it that produces a fish famine before Christmas and cod mountains in the new year? Will he take action on round fish and minimum landing sizes? Above all, will he have genuine talks with the fishermen and take the opportunity of surplus fish to bring in proper conservation measures? He should consider them as an alternative to the Sea Fish (Conservation) Bill, which has been widely rejected.
Mr. Curry : Before the hon. Gentleman invites me to start regulating the amount of fish that must be landed from north Norway and to regulate every single day's catch by the fishing industry, he should think rather harder. We have producer organisations with responsibility for managing the fisheries. We have suggested how they can manage them more effectively, but they do not want to do it that way ; they want to be left to do it their own way. We will do our best to eke out the fishery throughout the whole year, but those organisations have their role to play as well. It is not good enough for the industry always to find somebody else to blame for its problems. We will keep talking to the industry, but it must accept that there is a problem in the management which must be solved by the industry, as well as by me.
Self-sufficiency
3. Mr. Dickens : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what assessment he has made of the duration of United Kingdom self- sufficiency in food in the event of docks and airports being unavailable.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Nicholas Soames) : Food stocks would be sufficient to maintain the current levels of supplies in the United Kingdom if port and airport facilities were disrupted. In the unlikely event of long-term disruption, adequate supplies of food would still be likely to be available.
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Mr. Dickens : I thank my hon. Friend for his reassurance. Does he accept that we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the farmers of the United Kingdom, and that self-sufficiency in food is of paramount importance? It is no good having the greatest nuclear deterrent in the world and placing ourselves in a position to have to submit through starvation. [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker : Order. Let us hear the answer.
Mr. Soames : I think that my hon. Friend would do extremely well in those difficulties. He is perfectly correct in recognising that British farmers and growers are second to none in the world in the efficiency of their production. It is nevertheless true that we need to do more to ensure that the marketing of our food is better. If we were at any time placed in the difficult circumstances that my hon. Friend has described, I hope that he would take comfort from Mr. Jonathan Porritt, as reported in The Star today, and eat squirrels.
Fishing
4. Mr. Bowden : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will meet a representative group of south coast fishermen to discuss the implementation of EC fishing regulations.
Mr. Bowden : Is my hon. Friend aware that the fishermen in my area are very responsible--they have been following my advice not to involve themselves in any illegal or criminal action--but their patience is wearing thin? Is he further aware that a group of them went over to continental ports and found that there was no effective operation by fisheries inspectors and that the fishermen were getting away with murder by landing undersized fish and not obeying quotas? Is not it about time that we had a level playing field in the fishing industry?
Mr. Curry : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Effective control means effective conservation in fisheries. Our proposals will tighten up the controls and inspect the inspectorate. We are considering the use of more advanced technology to discover what is happening in the fishing industry. I shall take those matters up with the new French Government immediately. There does not seem to be a great deal of point in taking them up with the old French Government. My hon. Friend will accept that we are not wholly innocent in these matters, as Opposition Members will acknowledge.
Mr. Ainger : Is the Minister aware that last week I was in the Commission building with Mr. Paleokrassas's chef de cabinet, who was abusive of nation states that did not implement the regulations that the Commission issued on 22 and 25 February on the size, health, quantity and minimum price of fish? Is he further aware that fishermen in Britain still complain that, in some markets, the minimum price is not being reached? What does he intend to do about that?
Mr. Curry : As I explained to the fishing organisations yesterday, we have been in touch with Customs and Excise and we have made sure that we have a proper system of control, not merely on the minimum import price but on the weight of the fish being landed, to ensure that there is no fiddling. That will put a floor in the market. The answer
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lies not in banning imports, given the damage that that would do to our processing sector and the ultimate consumer, but in ensuring that fish is landed at a fair price. This afternoon, the Commission will make proposals for more effective monitoring of landings by third-country vessels to ensure that they, too, observe the minimum price and hygiene rules. That is a measured response to a crisis. We must not let it get out of proportion, but the marketplaces suggest that what we expected to happen is happening, and that is good news for fishermen.Support Policies (Prices)
5. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what effects agriculture support policies have on the prices charged to consumers.
Mr. Gummer : The consumer will benefit from the move to lower support prices, which form the basis of the recent CAP reform.
Mrs. Gorman : Is my right hon. Friend aware of the work of Dr. Brian Burkitt, a specialist on EC finances at Bradford university, who has produced a report that says that most of the £10 billion net that we have contributed went to the CAP? He also tells us in that report that for every £3 spent by the British people on food, £1 could be saved if we were to open our markets to food imports from other parts of the world. Is that not a better way to put a bit of butter on people's bread than paying out to the farmers?
Mr. Gummer : I hope that my hon. Friend would not wish the farmers of Essex in and surrounding her excellent constituency to find themselves unable to look after the land or to produce the food to which our hon. Friend the Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) referred earlier. I hope that my hon. Friend will accept that we are proud of what our farmers do in producing a high proportion of the food that we eat. We want to encourage them to sell more in the new home market of the single market. I know that my hon. Friend will want to support us in doing that, through her support for the Maastricht treaty.
Mr. Alan W. Williams : Does the Minister recognise that there is considerable public hostility to the CAP, especially as so many of its resources are devoted to the storage and disposal of unwanted surpluses, and when 80 per cent. of its resources go to the 20 per cent. richest farmers? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that money needs to be redirected towards environmental protection, improving the landscape and more extensive agriculture, all of which would help to support more small farmers?
Mr. Gummer : Surely the hon. Gentleman, who represents an agricultural constituency, has noticed that, in the CAP reform, the British Government were able to secure a wholehearted change from the original proposals so that environmental improvement is now at the heart of that policy. That is a British achievement and I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman, even if he is partisan in other things, would wish to congratulate the Government on that success.
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Small Farms
6. Mr. Amess : To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what new measures are being contemplated to assist small farms.
Mr. Curry : Our policy does not distinguish between farms according to size. Our plans to reform agricultural tenancies should, however, help people to enter the industry through liberalising the rented sector.
Mr. Amess : Will my hon. Friend accept that the 28 farms and smallholdings in my constituency of Basildon welcome the proposals that he has just outlined? Will he recognise that many of those farmers support the deregulation of farming as they complain to me that they seem to have more forms to fill in than animals to feed?
Mr. Curry : The people of Basildon are the first to demand firm controls and clear accountability when spending taxpayers' money. That is why they re-elected my hon. Friend to represent them--the result which shook the world, or at least the BBC. My hon. Friend can assure the smallholders and taxpayers of Basildon that we have the lightest and simplest controls consistent with ensuring that their money is properly spent.
Mr. Flynn : Does the Minister agree that the best thing that he could do to help small farms would be to make productive the set-aside land that is now running to waste? If it were used to grow biodiesel fuels, 750,000 tonnes could be grown, 7,000 jobs would be created and we should become less dependent on imported fuel. Biodiesel fuel is environmentally friendly. Why have France and Germany roared ahead with the mass production of biodiesels when all that we have is three buses running on such fuel? Why have we been so laggardly?
Mr. Curry : The very small farmers do not have to set aside land. The real answer lies with the non-rotational scheme. That gives the possibility of planting crops, of biomass, of woodland and of recreational purposes--opportunities which are not realistic under rotational set-aside. We plan to build the non-rotational scheme to give just those advantages.
Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
7. Mr. David Evans : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the current number of bovines diagnosed as suffering from BSE.
Mr. Soames : Up to 19 March, 89,014 cases have been confirmed since 1986. New suspects are being reported at a higher rate than last year because animals born immediately before the July 1988 ruminant feed ban are now reaching the age at which disease is most likely to occur. However, the rate of increase has slowed dramatically.
Mr. Evans : I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that if we had listened to the rantings of that lot opposite, there would not be a British beef industry? It is only as a result of my hon. Friend and his Ministry keeping their nerve that the British beef industry is in such good heart. When these beasts get the disease, do they jump up and down, do they shake their heads, do they lose their way and do they have glazed eyes? Does that remind my
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hon. Friend of that lot opposite? Would it be a good idea for my hon. Friend to send a senior vet down to Walworth road this afternoon?Mr. Soames : The House will be pleased to hear that a live test is about to become a fact of life. My hon. Friend may find it convenient to offer that test to the Leader of the Opposition. My hon. Friend is perfectly correct on the more substantial point. The scaremongering attached to this serious matter has not helped. My hon. Friend is also entirely correct in that the findings of the Southwood report and of the Tyrrell report, all the proper, fully constituted and substantiated scientific evidence that has been placed before the House and everything that we have laid before the House are going entirely according to plan. The disease is working its way through the system and we hope that we shall shortly see some substantial progress.
Dr. Strang : As the experiment that the Minister set up to establish whether there is maternal transmission of BSE from cow to calf will not be concluded for another three years, would it be a wise, precautionary measure to implement the recommendation of the Select Committee on Agriculture and to extend the offal sales ban to all animals, including animals under the age of six months?
Mr. Soames : The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. There is no evidence that there is maternal transmission ; if it were a significant factor in the epidemic, we should have seen it now. Even if it does occur, it will not prevent the epidemic from disappearing. The question of the various other animal feeds has been around for some time, and both our professional scientific advisers have not felt it necessary to implement a ban.
Miss Emma Nicholson : Will my hon. Friend endorse the basic scientific research into BSE which is being conducted by the Medical Research Council, whose painstaking work on the different types of scrapie is most likely to bring the answer soonest, although it does not seem likely to be the answer offered by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang)?
Mr. Soames : My hon. Friend is right. The scientific research into this difficult and serious matter has been painstakingly and brilliantly conducted by a wide range of scientists from not only the Medical Research Council but the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Central Veterinary Laboratory and others. My hon. Friend will be pleased to note that the increase in newly reported cases has slowed dramatically. There was an 80 per cent. increase between early 1991 and early 1992, but an increase of only 8 per cent. between early 1992 and 1993. Science has done us well and we look forward to the proper conclusion of this matter as the disease gradually works its way out of the system.
Common Agricultural Policy
8. Mr. McFall : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the latest estimate in pound sterling of total expenditure throughout the EC under the CAP for 1993.
Mr. Gummer : A total of £28,000 million to about 8 million farmers, who provide the food for more than 320 million people.
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Mr. McFall : When will the Government take an initiative to reduce the spiralling costs of the CAP, which already are unacceptable? Does he agree with Michael Jacquot, the EC controller, that they will remain within the 1994 budget guidelines only by creative accounting? Do not the MacSharry proposals only increase the costs of this policy to the EC taxpayer?
Mr. Gummer : That is why we got rid of the MacSharry proposals and replaced them with our own. That is what the CAP reform achieved. The hon. Gentleman should recognise that we are seeking to reduce, and have reduced, the resource costs of the CAP. I hope that he will accept that the nation that battles most to keep the CAP within budget is the United Kingdom. I hope that he will ask his hon. Friends to accept that, if we manage to do so, they cannot continue to demand more and more for different groups of farmers while complaining about the bill.
Mr. Oppenheim : As Opposition Members have clearly come to the sophisticated and intelligent conclusion that trade barriers and subsidies for agriculture harm taxpayers and consumers, why have they not reached the same conclusion for coal? As they are such keen advocates
Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman is moving away from the CAP. Can he keep his question to the CAP?
Mr. Oppenheim : As they are such keen advocates of industrial policy and intervention, which is exactly what the common agricultural policy is, why do not they praise the results of the policy--immense damage to third- world sugar producers, huge burdens on taxpayers and consumers and unsustainable surpluses?
Mr. Gummer : My hon. Friend is perfectly entitled to fight the Labour party with the enthusiasm that is so characteristic of him, but he would not find it so easy to do so if the farmers of Amber Valley and of surrounding areas were not given reasonable support to look after the land and produce the food that we need. I hope that he will support the way in which the Government have fought to ensure that developing countries, particularly those to which we owe so much in the West Indies, have a continued market for their bananas.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : We all welcome the Fontainebleau rebate, but has not its existence prevented British Ministers from demanding a fundamental review of CAP finances? Are not we, in effect, compromised?
Mr. Gummer : No, certainly not. The hon. Gentleman has not grasped the fact that British Ministers have won their battles in the European Community and that the CAP reform is designed on what Britain wanted. There was no single major element of our negotiating list that we failed to secure in those negotiations. The hon. Gentleman would do well to follow that example, but he will not have the opportunity of doing so.
Mr. John Greenway : When my right hon. Friend meets the new French Minister for Agriculture, who will be appointed soon following the annihilation of the socialists in France, will he remind him that the common agricultural policy reforms ensured a level field for producers and that there will be no going back on those reforms and the need for a GATT settlement?
Mr. Gummer : I look forward to meeting my new French counterpart when he or she is appointed and to
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discussing with that person the need for Britain and France to ensure that the European Community provides a proper basis for competitive farming, from which both British and French farmers will benefit. I join in my hon. Friend's pleasure at seeing sister parties winning the elections in France and proving again that socialism is dead.French Fishermen (Attacks)
9. Mr. Donohoe : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what discussions he has had with the French authorities to protect consignments of British fish from attacks by French fishermen ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Curry : Both the French Agriculture and Fisheries Ministers gave my right hon. Friend and myself undertakings in Brussels last week about the safety of British agriculture and fish products. We may need to update those shortly.
Mr. Donohoe : Given the obvious frustration among both the French and British fishing communities, not least because of the massive downturn in fish prices at the quayside which they are having to put up with, why do prices in the shops remain at a high level? Given that fact, will the Minister instigate an inquiry?
Mr. Curry : The hon. Gentleman has to distinguish between fish arriving in frozen blocks for processing--the largest part--and fresh fish that is landed. There is no great surplus of certain types of fish. The heart of the problem is the large-scale landing, both of cod into Humberside and of small fish into the Scottish and other ports, which are pulling down the market. There is a similar problem in France. The answer lies in tackling any abuses of imports, which the Community has acted to do, and in addressing how to manage fisheries better within the United Kingdom and France, including control.
Mr. John Marshall : Will my hon. Friend confirm that there are many more people employed in the fish processing industry than in fishing and that it is important that there are adequate supplies of fish for the industry to process and for the consumer to eat?
Mr. Curry : That is exactly the case. The largest part of fish is sold not on the fresh market but in the processed market. It goes into fish fingers and fish and chip shops. That market depends heavily on imported products. The last thing that would help the long-term future of the industry would be to drive the consumer away through shortage when there are readily available competing proteins at low prices.
Mr. Robert Hughes : Although it is clear that compensation for British fishermen and imports must be tackled, does the Minister accept that we shall not solve the crisis in the fishing industry as long as the traditional distrust between those who catch and those who process persists? Therefore, will the Minister get together with both sides of the industry and look at ways to regulate the market better and, perhaps even more important, at ways in which the market for fish can be expanded, so that this wholesome food becomes a regular part of people's diet rather than an occasional product that they have when they can afford it?
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Mr. Curry : I have tried to do exactly what the hon. Gentleman suggested. Yesterday, I met fishing industry representatives from the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations and the processors. I suggested to each side that they might like to meet the other, either under my chairmanship or simply in my office. The processors were agreeable, but the fishing industry refused to do so.
Dr. Strang : As the Minister has acknowledged that imports are part of the problem in both the French and the British markets, was not it unhelpful, to say the least, for the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to say earlier this week that prime responsibility for the problems facing the British industry lies with British fishermen ? As the Council of Fisheries Ministers has accepted that the minimum import price arrangements have not been working, are not we entitled to attach a great deal of store to its proposals for more effective control of direct landings by ships of third countries, which the Minister announced that the Commission was to make public earlier today ?
Following what the Minister said about the processing and catching sides of the industry, does he agree that there is a strong case for having a summit of all the interests to see whether they can come up with more effective collective action to stop a repetition of these problems ?
Mr. Curry : The Commission proposal on making sure that landings from third-country vessels observe the same standards as we require came from me, so I am very pleased that, as I understand it, that is to be carried forward by the Commission. My right hon. Friend was stating the obvious. There are various strands in this crisis. One of them is imported fish, but it has been very much exaggerated. There have also been very large landings on Humberside of fish from north Norway. Some estimates put this at double the amount landed by this time last year. There is also a lot of very small fish on the market. It is true that the Government have responsibility, but the industry, too, must look at how it can manage its fisheries more effectively. That is why we are consulting on certain measures that might address the problem of small fish on the market.
Mr. Ian Bruce : I wonder whether my hon. Friend has heard the reports from Weymouth. Despite the fishing disputes all round France and Britain, our port has been open to all fishermen. We gave a warm welcome to French fishermen who wanted to unload their catches there. Will he ask his colleagues in the European Community if they would like to be as communautaire as Weymouth fishermen and Weymouth fish docks and perhaps follow the example that we are setting in Dorset ?
Mr. Curry : The fishermen in my hon. Friend's constituency are behaving in the long-term interests of their industry. We have had some 89 requests now for safe passage of our products through France according to the system that we set up. They have been responded to and trade is now flowing much more normally. We should give credit for the fact that, after a period of delays, we are now getting free access to the French market, as we demanded, and the promises are being observed.
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Export for Slaughter
10. Mr. Lewis : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on current progress towards improving welfare provision for animals exported live for slaughter.
Mr. Gummer : I raised this at the last Agriculture Council and the Commission has agreed to bring forward proposals for further measures to protect the welfare of animals in transit. The present circumstances are not satisfactory and we will continue to press until we get a very much better answer.
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