House of Commons Hansard Debates for 26 Mar 1993

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to a college in London that specialises in teaching those skills. Much to my amazement and gratitude, the principal of that college wrote back to me and said that, as I had asked, he was prepared to give this young man a scholarship. I was very grateful to him. The problem then arose of what to do next. I had neither the resources nor the facilities to house that young man in London while he pursued his scholarship. He then informed me that there was the Marlborough link scheme. Very generously, it took on the cost of maintaining him in this country. It also assisted him by providing him with work experience in a local hotel in Marlborough. He has returned to his country with a sheaf of qualifications and recommendations. He is a very enterprising young man. I hope that those qualifications and recommendations will lead to his being quickly ensconced as the manager of one of the new hotels that are being built in the Gambia and providing services in that hotel of a quality that will encourage many people and, I hope, many of my hon. Friends, to go there for a holiday. In that way we shall assist in developing a very small country, but one which is important to us. I use that example to show that town councils can be part of something that is worth while. I do not believe, however, that they need the powers of the Bill to do what they have already achieved through the link scheme. It may be, however, that in future they will need that power. I have no particular reason for excluding authorities of that size from the provisions of the Bill, if their exclusion is seen in any way to be to their disadvantage. Nevertheless, the local authority associations will need to make more of a case, in terms of the Bill, to bring about that type of beneficial interchange and exchange.

I am conscious of the fact that town councils can be fairly large bodies. One town council, Brackley, serves a population of 59,000 people. If we compare that with anything in the third and the developing world, we see that it is a substantial authority. Therefore, I do not wish to prevent any local authority with the necessary capability from participating, by means of the Bill, in the interchange that we are trying to promote.

I hope that those remarks will reassure the hon. Gentleman that in no sense are we negative. In every sense we are positive. We are trying to obtain the maximum that we possibly can from the Bill in order to promote these various interests.

Mr. Carrington : It worries me when I find myself in some measure of agreement with the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks). We differ on most matters, including matters sartorial. However, he has an extremely valid point on this amendment in that I cannot see a reason for excluding town councils from the legislation.

I understand that there may be a few instances where a parish council would be able to give advice or, indeed, would be advised to give advice--if that is not too convoluted a phrase. I can see circumstances where it may be possible that such advice would be sensible and where we would not wish to exclude a body, however small, from the ability to make use of the legislation or be able, under the auspices of the Secretary of State, to come in as part of a complete restructuring advice package that is being given to an area of some foreign country. One can imagine a situation where a whole structure of local government might be set up with advice from an equivalent local

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government structure in the United Kingdom. In such cases, one would not wish to exclude the bottom tiers of councils from being able to participate in that. I understand the concern that too small a council might have to use a disproportionate amount of its resources to be able to give advice. With few officers or, in some cases, no officers at all, such councils may take on things which are impossible for them to deliver in the final analysis. At the beginning, they may go in with enthusiasm, determination and good ideas, but then time passes, the project slows down and things become more difficult. Finally, the Secretary of State may have to bail out the parish council which is giving the advice and that may cause an enormous problem. The Bill contains sufficient safeguards to ensure that that will not happen.

If a parish council takes on something that is patently too large for it to be able to undertake, that is too complex or, indeed, that is not done in partnership with a larger authority that would give support, the Secretary of State will have the power to refuse permission for the council to get involved. Therefore, the purpose of the amendments must be welcomed.

The Bill may already include parish councils; I am not clear on that. If that is the case, the amendments are unnecessary, and that is also welcomed. We need to clarify the exact position of small councils because the advice that they can give could be worth while for the development of countries, especially those in eastern Europe.

Sir Michael Marshall : I support my hon. Friend's argument. When we were discussing this matter in Committee, I got the impression that it was difficult to foresee circumstances in which parish or town councils might come forward. Recently, Bognor Regis town council in my constituency carried out an exercise--this is an interesting example for my hon. Friends and Labour Members--using automatic vote-counting machinery for a local referendum. Under present legislation, such automatic vote-counting machinery cannot be used in the United Kingdom for the normal processes with which we are all familiar. At that level, it is possible to experiment.

In this specific case, the manufacturer of the equipment provided it as a trial. Observers came from different parts of the world, including the different part of the world called the Home Office. It was an extremely interesting example of something to which, I suspect, we shall have to bend our minds before too long--whether we should be using automatic vote- counting machinery. It could have been used in this case to give know-how to visitors.

We have been talking about taking know-how outwards. With such experiments, it is possible to give some practical experience which would be of value to the sort of countries that we have in mind under the terms of the Bill. In view of what has been said about the Bill, I am not sure whether we need to carry the amendment. Certainly, it raises a proposition that is worthy of consideration. Perhaps it might be re-examined in another place, if not here.

Mr. Robin Squire : As the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) said, the purpose of amendments Nos. 7 and 8 is to extend the provisions of the Bill to allow parish, town or community councils to provide advice and assistance to overseas bodies with regard to any matter in which they have skill and experience. At present, the Bill does not give them that authority.

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The Government are entirely open to argument on this point. It has been said that, throughout the discussions and the passage of the measure, we have been at pains to take into account the views of the local authority associations on all aspects of the Bill and accommodate their wishes, if at all possible. When officials and my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) met the associations on a number of occasions before Christmas, the question of including parish, town and community councils was raised by the associations, but was not pressed hard. My hon. Friend told the local government side that parish councils do not employ technical officers and the local government side did not pursue the matter further at the time. On that basis, my hon. Friend and I concluded that it seemed unlikely that parish, town and community councils had much to contribute to the provision of technical assistance abroad, not least because many of them are small with limited resources. I should add, slightly tongue in cheek, that it may seem a little odd that associations should now wish to have parish powers extended in that direction when they have resisted extensions of parish powers a little closer to home than the subject of the Bill.

My serious and unqualified commitment is that if the associations can demonstrate that some parish, town and community councils have the ability to provide technical assistance to overseas bodies, I will certainly reconsider the matter. Of course, I should need to consult separately my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales. My commitment has been conveyed by my officials to the associations. I understand that the associations have undertaken to provide further information to enable the matter to be reconsidered before the Committe in another place. On that clear undertaking, I hope that the hon. Member for Newham, North-West will feel able to withdraw amendments Nos. 7 and 8.

Mr. Tony Banks : How I have yearned to hear a Minister come to the Dispatch Box, say that the Government are entirely open to argument and, on this occasion, mean it. It is a step forward for civilised behaviour and good government.

I welcome the Minister's assurances. The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) demonstrated that there are examples of activities in the local authority structure which the Bill is beginning to highlight and we are gathering more information all the time. The hon. Gentleman referred to Marlborough, which, as a town council, is its own parish council. Effectively, it is a parish council with a mayor. The need to extend the Bill is clearly demonstrated. The hon. Member for Arundel (Sir M. Marshall) gave a further example. As the knowledge of the Bill permeates through the local government structure, I suspect that hon. Members on both sides of the House will be able to discover more examples tucked away in their own areas.

If one looks at the Bill, one will find that parish, town and community councils are excluded. It is good to know that the Minister is prepared to listen to arguments. I suspect that the arguments will come from his own side as well as from the local authority associations. The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington), whose support I greatly welcomed, referred to our shared lack of sartorial tastes. That is because I have the taste but not the money and he enjoys the opposite condition.

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Parish councils will be undertaking ventures in co-operation with other authorities. I gave examples of parish councils which were involved with national parks. Clearly, parish councils, by definition, do not have the resources to enable them to spare staff, as it were. However, a great deal of expertise has been built up in rural areas. It would be a shame not to allow it to be passed on to areas of the world where it is obviously very much needed.

I accept what the Minister said. It is good to know that on this occasion the Government are working with an open mind and are prepared to listen. Under those terms, and with the assurances that he has given me, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendments. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Order for Third Reading read.

11.29 am

Mr. Lester : I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

When I made my peroration on Second Reading, I suggested that by passing the Bill, the House would light one thousand candles in various parts of the world in which light could be cast on local communities by their linking with such communities in this country. During the Committee stage and since, I became convinced that that was an accurate analogy. Those of us who seek to encourage the forces of light rather than the forces of darkness will see that the Bill is perhaps one small way in which we can help to develop that concept. Colleagues have mentioned local opinion. I should have thought that in any locality, opinion would be in favour of a more integrated and closer world, and the sharing of information and assistance in a way that narrowed the gap between those of us who live in privileged societies in the privileged world and the rest.

All my parliamentary and personal experience has convinced me that one of the truths of life is that the maximum human contact that is designed through good will to assist is essential to move things forward to counter the negative processes which are all too apparent to us in different parts of the world. Ethnic cleansing, the breaking of contact, the manufacture of nationalistic feelings of which we have many experiences in history, and the encouragement of hate, disgust and those forces that I am sure that no one in the House remotely encourages, are all too obvious.

Therefore, it is important that legislation such as my Bill, which seeks to encourage the best of our standards in a particular walk of life, are used to maximum effect. Some of us have come through local government to the House and, therefore, have a particular affection for it. We recognise that local government is the sinews of our democracy and that, unless we have the bricks with which to build democratic values and a democratic society, we cannot impose one from the top.

Equally, local government is highly relevant to our daily lives. For many people in many parts of the world, what is achieved in their locality is infinitely more important than what might be done in their national parliament or any international body. I have given one example of that today. It is important to one community of 20,000 people in the Gambia.

I am a member of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. Currently we are examining Boutros Boutros

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Ghali's document "Agenda for Peace", which sets the big scene for the world and the way in which it will develop into the next century. As part of that, I recently visited Cambodia--a tragic country which I know well. I have tried in many ways in the House to influence Government policy to help Cambodia's people to emerge from a dark passage of their history.

In a short time, there will be elections in Cambodia. It is essential that we assist the people with technology, which the United Nations has already done. Cambodia is turning to local authorities, including in Britain, for people to go out to Cambodia and man the election booths and electoral offices. Cambodia wants to convince its people that the election involves a secret ballot--something of which they have no experience--and that it will be run to the highest standards so that they can accept the result. That is important. Cambodia is turning to us to send 50 people from all our local authorities who are prepared to join 950 people from other parts of the world to ensure that the election is run properly. The election could be crucial. We could have another Angola or we could move forward into a wholly different situation. That is a simple example of where standards that we have established and seek to maintain could be put to immediate practical effect.

One of the essential elements of "Agenda for Peace" is what we call preventive diplomacy. It is far better to prevent a dispute or a breakdown in society. One official from the Foreign Office or one ambassador is much cheaper than a battalion or an international rescue attempt, such as we have seen in Somalia. The Bill offers one further thread in that ability to prevent trouble and assist with preventive diplomacy.

The amount of money that we devote to preventive diplomacy is minuscule. It includes the know-how funds, which are essential. The Foreign Office budget represents only 1 per cent. of public expenditure. As "Agenda for Peace" suggests, diplomacy is the real way in which we defend our values and standards and share in giving assistance to other countries. So 1 per cent. of public expenditure seems a small amount to devote to that priority. That is not the issue with which we are dealing today, but all of us in the House should ensure that the means exist to play the full part that we can play because of Britain's history.

Britain is the only country in the world which is a member of the Security Council, the Commonwealth and the European Community. That is a unique combination which no other country has. That is to say nothing of our historical links through the Commonwealth with many other parts of the world. We can give much in terms of diplomatic skills and funds such as the know-how fund. We can share the skills of our local authorities wherever in the world they are most needed. We have concentrated a great deal on the know-how funds as the means of assisting countries in eastern Europe. Indeed, we see daily how desperate Russia is for assistance. I am 110 per cent. behind that effort. Having provided the means for the implementation of the measures in the Bill, we need to grow the powers and ensure that the assistance is accepted. We need to propagate the knowledge in the relevant countries that the service is available.

It may reassure some of my colleagues who mentioned their anxieties about local government and local opinion that the initiative usually comes from the recipient

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country. People turn to our local Foreign Office staff and say that they desperately need help on a certain matter. The Foreign Office makes a list from which local authorities make a bid to carry out the project. The Foreign Office ensures that the local authority is not only expert in that matter, but is able to make the link. I said on Second Reading that many towns, cities and counties in Britain were linked to places in other countries. It is helpful if a link already exists and people have already got together for other reasons. In giving technical assistance and offering help, it is essential not only to provide assistance but to monitor it and continue to support it. In many cases, people have been offered help and advice and left to get on with it. So many things in this life require constant monitoring and assistance.

The town clerk in Harare, which is twinned with Nottingham, can pick up the telephone and speak to the chief executive of Nottinghamshire county council and say, "Michael, I have a problem. How can you assist?" The chief executive can immediately respond by sending a further officer or by offering advice on the telephone. Much can be achieved by such a human link.

Interestingly, other Commonwealth countries operate similar systems. I was particularly interested in the Federation of Canadian Municipalities international programme, whose symbol is

"Together we can change the world"--

what a good symbol, because apart we can destroy the world, which I am afraid is happening in too many parts of the world. In terms of the benefit to British people, one of its findings is interesting. It says that the programmes that it has already established

"have had a very positive impact on the Canadian municipalities involved, particularly in terms of professional growth. An improvement in the morale of Canadian municipal staff involved in the exchanges, and a shift in their attitude to how their city functions is beginning to be seen."

It further commented on the link between Burkina and Quebec : "Managers who have gone to Burkina have found lessons to be learned. In Quebec, one gets used to a standard of life, to good working conditions. Seeing the situation in Bogande gives one some humility. One also learns much by the way people there have retained the strong human warmth, in their business relations as well as their day-to-day life, something we have lost a little of here." There is a two-way process, which can only be to the benefit of the local community. I am sure that all my colleagues will agree that we must build on that example.

Where do we go from here? One wants to look to the future. The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the Commonwealth should start to see how it can link our local authority associations with those in other parts of the Commonwealth. That is a natural link. Sadly, many parts of the Commonwealth are still undeveloped and local authority associations may not exist. I hope that one of the sponsors of the Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. Shepherd), who is a member of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, will be able to make such a proposal for consideration at the association's international conference and, I hope, at the Heads of State conference. It would help to unite and assist the Commonwealth to develop and propagate the principle that together we can change the world.

I want my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel (Sir M. Marshall), who is president of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, to use the beneficent effects of the IPU to be big brother in the kindest and most helpful way to the many

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little brothers in local government. I hope that, through his good offices, he will be able to make the rest of the international community aware of the many talents that British local government can offer in building a single world.

I am sure that no sane council tax payer would begrudge such measures of assistance or would take the line about junketing and all the negative attitudes that people tend to mention.

Eastern and central Europe are covered by a fund that is already established. I should like it to be enlarged and used as effectively as possible, but my interest is in countries that have less than those in eastern and central Europe, which are covered by the Overseas Development Adminstration. I hope that we can encourage officials and the very able ODA Minister to take account of the Bill under the technical link scheme, because the Bill is the most cost-effective means of offering assistance. Instead of the ODA using international consuultants, the Bill is a more direct practical link. The ODA may need to change its thinking, which sometimes takes a little time. The de minimis provision of our overseas aid budget is very small, but, cumulatively, the small amount that a local authority can spend under the Bill and, with ministerial encouragement, under the general authorisation could do an enormous amount of good. It would be helpful if my friends at the ODA began to think positively about how the relevant local authorities will be asked to offer assistance.

Lady Olga Maitland : Does my hon. Friend agree that, although it is essential to give as much help and assistance as possible to overseas countries, it is important that they have to pass the litmus test of being a democratic system in order to receive financial aid ? That is one of the criteria that were first suggested by the Foreign Office.

Mr. Lester : That should not be the first litmus test, because much of what we are doing is to enable such countries to establish democratic systems. The only way in which we can genuinely serve communities throughout the world is under a democratic system. We must be a little careful in thinking that we have the only democratic system. There must be accountable government at any level where Governments should be accountable to the people that they serve. How countries achieve that object is very much a matter for them. The thrust of the Bill and of my speech is that we are trying to export our high standards, and democracy in this place is one of our highest standards.

I hope that this small Bill will have an enormous and profound effect. I am most grateful to all those who played a part in drafting it, in developing it and in crafting it in Committee : Opposition Members have been constructive and supportive ; Conservative Members have revealed their intimate knowledge of the subject ; the Government have been very supportive ; and the Local Government International Bureau and members of local authorities shared the best of their knowledge and experience. I thank in advance Baroness Flather, who was commended by the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), and who I am sure will do a marvellous job in the House of Lords.

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I hope that before we adjourn for the summer recess all those who played a part in drafting the Bill will take the same joy and fundamental sense of purpose from their role and that the Bill will be given Royal Assent before the summer recess.

11.49 pm

Mr. Pickles : I congratulate by hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) on his initiative in promoting the Bill. My hon. Friend was luckly to come high in the private Member's ballot. I do not know whether he came first or second. He could have chosen a controversial subject and achieved a lot of national publicity. It is entirely consistent with his distinguished record that he should choose to promote a Bill which will do good both on the local government scene and, more important, on the international scene.

The world has changed a great deal over the past few years. The great founding fathers of modern local government would be surprised to find British local government offering advice and assistance to countries many miles from these shores. Those engaged in local government activities are surprised to find that many of the problems and challenges faced in Britain by those seeking to deliver good local administration are almost exactly the same as the problems faced in Africa and in the former eastern bloc. It is important that we enable local councils to share their experiences and to point to good practice to ensure that democracy flourishes in other countries. Democracy now exists from Stettin to well beyond the Urals. It may not be the kind of democracy that is readily recognisable by the good councillors of Brentwood District or of Epping Forest District, but it is a vibrant and developing democracy.

The powers in the Bill are built on good local government practice. There has been a gradual build-up of information. The Bill is important in clarifying and codifying practices that are developing. We need to ensure that in years to come, district auditors, whether sharp-suited or not--my experience of district auditors leads me to believe that they are unlikely to be sharp-suited--will not be able to rule these matters outside the competence of local authorities. As we are all aware, the principal function of a district auditor is to arrive on the battleground long after the battle has been won and lost and noisily to bayonet the wounded. We need to ensure that local authorities have the power to avoid such problems.

In Committee and on Report, hon. Members have expressed the worry that the Bill will open the doors to junketing. I have been very critical of junketing. We must make it clear that the advice offered is largely technical and practical. It is principally designed to ensure that the officers and practitioners of the council have the opportunity to share their experience with people from other countries. I make a prediction. The clanking of the mayoral chain will not be heard as a result of the powers that my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe seeks to give local government.

The new powers will develop in the way in which the twinning powers of local authorities have developed over the past 50 or 60 years. When I first became a councillor, I listened to a moving description of the patient and painstaking way in which links were built between this country, France and Germany between the two world wars

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and of the way in which, after the conclusion of the second world war, those links were patiently and gradually built up again. Local authorities, along with the local communities, were prepared to make enormous efforts to forge links. Families from across Europe and beyond have grown up together. Schoolchildren have become familiar with the customs of this country, and our schoolchildren have become familiar with customs of other countries. There have been exchanges of cultural events and exchanges of trade events.

The links are directly relevant to the Bill. As I know from my constituency of Brentwood and Ongar, the schoolchildren from abroad who visited my part of Essex in the 1950s and 1960s are now adults of some importance in local industry, in local councils and in local business. They are familiar with Essex and we are familiar with the parts of the world from which they came. Naturally, when we think in terms of trade, of cultural exchanges, or of advice, we look to the people whom we have known for most of our lives. The Bill will start an important movement because the friendships and professional advice proposed in the Bill will serve this country well. We should not be too starry-eyed. The aims of my hon. Friend from Broxtowe are good and decent, and will bring democracy. The Bill will also help to promote the interests of this country. The development of democracy and economic growth in the countries concerned will have a direct bearing on our economy.

What do the newly emergent democracies want? I have had the opportunity to offer advice to colleagues in other lands. What strikes me most forcefully about eastern Europe is the fact that a whole generation has disappeared in terms of leadership. The people who run local councils and local democracy have had no experience of such work. They are generally people on the fringes of society. Many were imprisoned under the former regimes. They now find that, having stormed the barricades, they have to deal with many of the difficult practicalities that come with running a modern local council. I welcome the Bill. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe on making a valuable contribution to local government. I look forward to the Bill being given Royal Assent this year. 11.57 am

Sir Michael Marshall (Arundel) : I am glad to have the opportunity to follow my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) and for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles), because I intend to address a number of the points they raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe rightly took us into the wider international dimension which lies behind the Bill. He is somewhat modest in speaking of it as a"little" Bill. The legislation has the potential to create an important extension of the development of the democratic process in many parts of the world.

I will outline some of the aspects of the legislation from my standpoint as president of the Inter-Parliamentary Union. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe asked me what the IPU could do in taking the process forward. I will outline what is happening at present and consider briefly how the process may go further. I will deal first with specific examples of local government activity within parliaments and within the IPU. One of the most striking examples, of which a number of hon. Members have experience, is the fact that delegations from many

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countries, especially the newly emergent democracies in central and eastern Europe, relate strongly to the constituency visits and to discussions at local government level. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar said, we are dealing with a generation of people who have no experience of such structures.

I slightly disagreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar when he said that he saw multi-party democracy only in the officer context. I do not want to ignore the role of councillors in providing the sort of crash courses and assistance needed. I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that such work can be undertaken by people with worried looks and heavy frowns, not those wearing chains for ceremonial purposes, but links are being forged by parliamentary visits, particularly of those coming to this country from the newly emerging democracies.

The IPU stands for the peaceful resolution of conflicts and the development of representative institutions--two processes that are intermingled--and is able to take the process wider still. The IPU can help in deploying the interests of local government at the elected level as well as the interests of Parliament and national Government at a higher level.

Cambodia has been mentioned. It is a good example of the way in which the partnership is beginning to emerge. I had the chance to meet Dr. Boutros Boutros Ghali a few weeks ago specifically to discuss what can be done to assist in the electoral process in Cambodia. I am sure that it will be appreciated that trying to co-ordinate the work of 118 Parliaments--not just one's own Government--is an enormous task. It is not easy, and we are still in the early days.

There is a worry over Cambodia. In Angola, while the electoral process was generally seen as free and fair, it was challenged simply because the presence of overseas observers was limited. There were not enough people on the ground to prevent the sort of challenge to the outcome by opposition parties and others. That is why the United Nations has overall direction of the Cambodian elections and is seeking to assist at every level and particularly--as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe said--in the process of overseeing the polling stations which are often in remote areas.

The process is not confined merely to local government officers and councillors. The request has gone out to Members of Parliament to undertake such work, which is arduous and in some ways seen as lower down the scale of work normally undertaken. However, the needs are such that the appeal has gone out on the wider spaces. I am proud to see that a number of hon. Members have considered the matter carefully--and I believe that some will come forward to assist the process, and possibly camp up country to participate in it. Last week, I had the chance to visit the Romanian Parliament and address the Chamber of Deputies. We had perhaps underestimated the way in which that Parliament is moving towards a wider multi-party spread than we had previously thought. The Romanian Speaker will visit this country soon and will, I know, hope to have the opportunity of discussing with you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and your colleagues, the activities of the Chair in the way in which our parliamentary organisations are currently structured. In Romania, debates quickly turn to issues of local government and how it should be organised. Discussions then bring into play the way in which such

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activities can be underpinned. The various possibilities include not just the know-how fund and the opportunities provided through the British Association for Central and Eastern Europe, but the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, which is doing important work in ensuring that party organisations have a chance to grow and develop. The current project list is widely drawn, although I suspect that it does not go as far towards local government as many hon. Members would wish. That is precisely why the Bill is so well timed and can act as a catalyst in taking the process forward.

I will not seek to rehearse the discussions that we had in Committee, but I am worried about one or two aspects of our proceedings this morning. Some of my hon. Friends--including, I think, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin)--seemed to believe that the process could displace commercial activities. I believe that it will have the opposite effect. My experience of county councils shows that they are organised to provide the know-how on road building and management for many parts of the world, not just central and eastern Europe, but Africa and Asia. In doing so, they bring British civil engineering interests into the various consortia. Specific commercial opportunities are provided by the work that is encouraged by the Bill.

Looking to the future, there are ways in which the process can be accelerated and taken wider to bring together a partnership of local government, councillors, the House of Commons, the other place, Government and commercial interests in schemes that have validity in a world with ever -increasing needs. I do not know what the local authority organisations are currently doing, but here may be a case for creating some sort of international organisation of local authorities to exchange ideas. We cannot simply assume that it should be a purely British effort.

My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe referred to work being done by the Canadian municipal organisations. In Committee, I asked my hon. Friend the Minister whether he had any other examples of the work being done in other countries. My research suggests that there is not much information on that subject, and I have the impression that the work in that sphere is limited.

In my response to the Bill, which I trust will become an Act, I will ensure that we take the process forward and draw it to the attention of the 118 Parliaments so that they take back to their local authorities the suggestions made. I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, through his work on the Bill, has started the process. I hope that it will be not only irreversible but worldwide.

12.7 pm

Mr. Whittingdale : I will make a brief speech. I do not want to detain the House long and I am aware that other hon. Members wish to speak.

I was unable to be present for the Bill's Second Reading, but I read the debate carefully, and the subsequent Committee stage. I join my other hon. Friends in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) on introducing the Bill, which appears to have won wide support on both sides of the House.

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The collapse of communism and what has happened in eastern Europe in the past couple of years is the most exciting event during my lifetime. I went to eastern Europe in 1983 and saw the state of poverty and the expressions of despair. I never thought that the collapse of communism would happen so quickly or come so soon. With the collapse of communism come new problems, both economic and political. It is essential that we in the west give every assistance that we can to the people in eastern Europe to make the transition to an economic free market and political democracy. This country has been at the forefront in giving economic assistance through the know-how fund and other institutions, such as the European bank for reconstruction and development, the British Council and, most recently, the foundation set up by Baroness Thatcher, with which I had a small connection before becoming a Member of Parliament. Such efforts must be matched by political assistance. My hon. Friend the Member for Arundel (Sir M. Marshall) mentioned the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, which is doing good work in helping embryonic political parties in eastern Europe. The Conservative party has also been providing those parties with help on campaign techniques and political skills. It is essential that we should help not merely national political parties, but local ones. When I made a brief visit to eastern Siberia with Baroness Thatcher, we stopped to refuel at Bratsk. She was greeted by a delegation of local dignitaries, who turned out to be the hierarchy of the Irkutsk communist party. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe said that the essential requirement for functioning democracy is accountability, but I believe that that delegation had no accountability to the people of Irkutsk. I suspect that its members were accountable only to the Kremlin.

It is extremely important that we should give all the help that we can to the countries of eastern Europe, the former Soviet Union and other parts of the world to develop properly functioning local democracy. That is why I welcome the creation of the technical link scheme by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and why I give my full support to the Bill.

We have a long tradition in this country of town twinning links which have been set up to improve international relationships and promote friendship with other European countries. Essex, my area, is twinned with the region of Picardy. Maldon is twinned with Cuijk in Holland, a link established 14 years ago by the then mayor, Ron Daws. Since then, there have been regular exchanges between the two towns. Colchester is twinned with Wetzlar in Germany and with Avignon, and has developed friendships with the towns of Siena, Zwolle, Tarragona and Tortosa. All these places are in western Europe. They provide valuable links, but we need to look further. We need to encourage towns such as the ones in my constituency that I have mentioned to develop links with towns and villages in eastern Europe and beyond, so that we can pass on to them our experience and skills and help them to develop their own forms of local democracy.

I welcome the Bill and I hope that towns across the country will take advantage of it, so that in due course Colchester will be twinned not just with Wetzlar but with Vladivostok, and Maldon not just with Cuijk but also with Cracow. This Bill will enable them to do that, and I give it my full support.

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12.11 pm

Mr. Bowis : I had not realised until now that my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, South and Maldon (Mr. Whittingdale) was responsible for sending our former noble leader to Siberia. I salute my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) for introducing the measure and for all that he does for the developing world east and west of the iron curtain. Occasionally, we have to mix our envy of his endurance of the tropical sun with admiration for what he achieves on these countries' behalf.

The Bill meets the concerns of local authorities about the possibility of finding themselves acting ultra vires. I will want to continue to monitor their concerns about currency fluctuations affecting the implementation of their plans. Given the uncertainties of currencies like the rouble, we do not want to find that a council that has sent staff somewhere runs out of money before the scheme has got under way. That problem needs to be treated with sympathy by the powers that be.

I entirely endorse the point about countries that are not yet democracies. My hon. Friend mentioned Cambodia, for instance. I recall being in Namibia in the run-up to what the United Nations deemed were free and fair elections. There I met an electoral registration officer from Somerset, offering his expertise. I should like that to happen in more parts of the world, such as Palestine. I would encourage local authorities to use for this purpose officers who have just retired. They have the requisite expertise, and using them will not deprive communities of that expertise. I think particularly of the former chief executive of my former council of Kingston--recorded as Wandsworth in the Official Report of the Committee proceedings--Bob McCloy, who has done so much for Bulgaria. As for the financial benefits to local authorities, Wandsworth council has been selling its advisory services to many parts of the world, especially eastern and central Europe. Last year, that brought in £100,000 for the benefit of the community. That sort of activity should be further developed.

The Bill goes a long way towards bringing benefits to the recipient countries--and to the donor countries. Our councils can often learn something from the procedures and practices of the towns abroad to which they go. That is why we should endorse the Bill and wish it well. I wish Baroness Flather every success in taking the Bill through the other place, and I congratulate my hon. Friend once again on taking the measure through to the statute book.

12.14 pm

Lady Olga Maitland : Because time is short I will briefly offer my sincere and wholehearted congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) on bringing in the Bill. The clarification that it affords is well overdue. The world is becoming like a global village ; we must reach out and help those in need.

Of course we must help emerging democracies, but I must emphasise that know -how funds should primarily be given to countries that are already democracies. Advice is also badly needed. When I was in Yugoslavia before Christmas monitoring the elections it became clear to me how much that country need good advice on how to run elections. I will not go into the political shenanigans that were going on, but there was a genuine need to understand how to carry out free and fair elections.

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The Bill is welcome because it can serve as a vehicle for developing trade links, too. In a week of great tragedy for Warrington, I have heard that the borough council there is doing magnificent work developing trade links in the form of technical expertise with eastern Europe, especially Czechoslovakia--to the tremendous benefit of local businesses.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe on a splendid effort.

12.16 pm

Mr. Carrington : I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester). He has piloted the Bill through with considerable skill. The Bill is timely because it will be of general application--and specific application to eastern Europe, an area with which we have great historical and cultural ties. Its attitudes to democracy can be expected to be similar to our own and its structures will benefit enormously from being able to call on the expertise of British local government.

It is impossible to run a functioning system of democracy without that democracy permeating to the lowest levels of society, and working effectively there. It must permeate all activities in the public domain, as well. That is the area in which this country has a great deal to offer others.

That assistance must be given at other countries' request, however, not at our insisting. Only they know what they need for their democracy. We can provide the extra technical assistance to enable them to achieve their self -defined democratic goals, and that is what the Bill does. Hence, I strongly support it ; I congratulate my hon. Friend and I look forward to the Bill's successful passage through another place.

12.18 pm

Mr. Nigel Evans : I am grateful to have the opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) on his important Bill. It is tempting to say that we should of course automatically give countries in need of assistance the help that they need. Not so ; when canvassing one's constituents, one often hears them say, "We have our own problems here. The money you spend on overseas assistance should be spent on this country." I do not share that view. Emerging democracies are fragile flowers which need oxygen to survive. If we, through our work here, can give them part of our oxygen, they will grow and blossom.

In the past, I was sceptical. I was on West Glamorgan county council for six years and made it clear from the start that I would not go on any foreign trips. During my time there, I did not take any such trips although there were opportunities to do so. The discerning electorate will be able to see whether local authorities are abusing the privileges that the Bill will grant them to assist emerging countries. They will know whether the system is being used or abused.

The Bill will banish the jolly-junket image and every pound will be invested properly to assist emerging overseas democracies. When I was a councillor in West Glamorgan, many of the areas that I represented were twinned with other towns and villages. Some of the boards and banners in our towns and villages suggest that it would be easier to state the places that they are not twinned with. However, twinning gives valuable two-way information. We, as well

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as the countries that we are assisting, will benefit from contact. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe and have great pleasure in supporting the Bill.

12.21 pm

Mr. Tony Banks : I associate the Opposition with all that has been said about the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) and his excellent Bill. We are delighted at its progress and wish it fair wind in another place. When I listen to the hon. Gentleman in Committee and in the House, I realise what a thoroughly decent person he is. He has the distinction, the badge of merit, of being one of the first Ministers to be sacked by Mrs. Thatcher when she became Prime Minister. That was because he is such a thoroughly decent person.

I was interested to hear that the hon. Member for Colchester, South and Maldon (Mr. Whittingdale) accompanied Lady Thatcher to deepest, darkest and ice-bound Russia and that she was greeted by members of the local Communist party. They recognise a good old Stalinist when they see one and if they ever wish to restore Stalinism, Baroness Thatcher will be an excellent person to take over and consult. We have had many clashes in the Chamber over the role and functions of local government : we gently touched on a few of them today. Many Conservative Members have local authority backgrounds. I am a passionate believer in the role of local government, which has been sorely undermined since 1979 by many Conservative policies. The Prime Minister recently spoke about the need for partnership between local and central Government and about the need to move away from the acrimonious past. We all say, "Hear, hear" to that, but we want to see action by the Government ; otherwise what the Prime Minister said will remain mere words. So many powers have been taken from local government and it has been so sorely undermined that not just words but Government action are needed to remedy all the past attacks. Without that, I am afraid that our local democratic structure will remain fragile.

There is much to be proud of in what is left of local government in terms of its structures, democracy and traditions and, in terms of what we have been debating,--its expertise. It is little wonder that east European and other countries have turned to our local authorities for assistance in the areas that hon. Members have mentioned in this short Third Reading debate. Long may those requests come in and long may we be able to extend that expertise, tradition and everything else that is good about local government to countries elsewhere, and especially in eastern Europe, that are struggling to enjoy the light of democracy.

Local authorities need to do a great deal to assist emerging democracies. The hon. Member for Broxtowe was correct when he said that we must not say, "We will assist you only when you are a fully fledged democracy." One could argue that our democracy is not as fully developed as we want it to be, and we have had many generations of practice. It is a little much to expect emerging democracies in eastern Europe to make an enormous leap in a short time. They need help and encouragement, and that is precisely what the Bill is about.

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