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the modification of motor vehicles at the point of manufacture to allow a plate to be displayed on the vehicle as required. Unfortunately, I believe that such action may be beyond the Bill's scope. It would also require European legislation, as national legislation for the approval of changes to the manufacture of motor vehicles is governed by, and falls under the exclusive competence of, European law. Therefore, we would be unable to legislate on that. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) on presenting his Bill so ably. The principle of the legislation has an entirely laudable aim. New, upstart young Members of Parliament like myself are allowed, on their first outing, a maiden speech, during which other hon. Members are advised by the Chair or convention to avoid running into them or upsetting them. They give us a wide berth so that we can complete the process without damaging or injuring anyone.I have a number of concerns about the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford made it absolutely clear that the issue of the plate would be one for the Committee or the Secretary of State if the Bill becomes law. However, the use of the letter "P" could be open to misinterpretation, particularly if we move to a system such as that recommended by my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham, in which "P" could be seen to stand for a poor or pathetic driver.
I believe that "N" for novice would be a more appropriate plate. The "N" could stand for new, novice or "newly qualified" to reflect the Bill's title. If the system is expanded, my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) might have an "A" on his plate to stand for aggressive driver--if that is not being unfair to him. I note that he is nodding. We might have "C" for careless or "E" for expert--we could develop the concept of driver labelling to inform others in a variety of ways. The letter "A" for aggressive is attractive as it is a reversible letter. The driver of a car in front could read it in his mirror to give him an idea of the sort of person driving behind, not just in front.
Lady Olga Maitland (Sutton and Cheam) : Does my hon. Friend agree that all the discussions about putting plates on cars are somewhat beside the point? We should really be discussing the introduction of a suitable restriction such as 45 mph speed limit, or--as in New Zealand--a ban on carrying passengers so that teenagers do not show off, or not allowing driving at night. We should be considering elements to discipline newly qualified car drivers.
Mr. Jenkin : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention, which leads me to the next part of the Bill : the restriction on engine size--the only restriction currently proposed in the Bill--about which I am anxious. I used to work in the motor industry for the Ford motor company. I did so when the then Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced restrictions on engine size relating to the taxation of company cars. It caused great distortion in the car market and it was a relief to the motor industry when the restrictions were altered so that the engine size restriction no longer applied.
When the restrictions on engine size applied, some privately owned car fleets--not those of my employer--adopted a system called badge engineering. The fleet manager, more than anyone else, used to indulge in the process and ensure that the badge on the back of his car
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suggested that the car's engine was below 1800cc--other documentation might also lend weight to that suggestion. The car driver would know that he was driving a car with a larger engine and would not want the taxation authorities or his boss to know that he had a better car than the boss.This leads to the problem of the enforceability of engine sizes. It might be impossible for the police to know whether a car had an engine bigger than 1300cc. I recall using my father's car many years ago. Its engine was considerably larger than 1300cc, although it was not a BMW 735--hon. Members will know the sort of salary my father had to live on. [Laughter.] Nevertheless, because it was my father's car, I took great care of it. I was far less likely to damage it than I would have been had I driven a cheap banger of my own with a small engine. So restricting engine size might not achieve the intended result.
Mr. Nigel Evans : Does my hon. Friend remember that a Reliant Robin was caught speeding at well over 70 mph? The owner had souped up the engine. Robins present challenge enough to drive and they must be somewhat worse with souped-up engines.
Mr. Jenkin : I remember the newspaper stories about that. It amply demonstrates some of the difficulties that might be involved in applying this restriction to newly qualified drivers.
I emphasise that this measure has great merits which deserve serious debate. I hope that all hon. Members who want to speak on Second Reading will have the time to do so. I end with a few remarks about foreign drivers. We can see from the signs on the back of their cars that they are foreign--and clearly inferior drivers. We know from watching foreign buses manoeuvring round Hyde Park what a risky business that can be, so the principle behind the Bill has a proven track record and I hope that the House will continue to give it lengthy and sober consideration.
2.22 pm
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) : I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) has introduced the Bill. The intention behind it is right : to reduce the number of accidents on our roads and to reduce the numbers of people killed, maimed or injured on them.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford said that a great many 60 and 80- year-old people are learning to drive these days, but I want to talk about the number of accidents caused by younger people. The idea of putting a letter or symbol on the back of a car to identify a newly qualified driver is right. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) said that people in Northern Ireland in this category have to display an R plate. It has proved extremely successful.
Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham) : Common sense might suggest that, but no research that I have been able to find shows that it makes the slightest bit of difference. The problem has been properly identified, but the solution to it has not--certainly not by this simple method.
Mr. Evans : Research has shown that the number of accidents caused by young, learner or newly qualified drivers in Northern Ireland has fallen significantly.
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In this country people are not obliged to carry their driving licence with them. How long a person has been driving can be determined by the licence. If such a person is stopped and asked to produce his licence within three days at a police station, there is nothing to prevent him from giving the wrong name and address to the police officer and asking somebody else to furnish a licence to a police station that is many miles from the scene of the incident. It would be difficult to enforce the measure, although it opens wide the door to the introduction of identity cards, a measure which I favour for reasons other than enforcing the proposed legislation. It is rather anomalous that a newly qualified driver is allowed to build up 12 points in the same way as someone who has been driving for 20 years. A newly qualified driver should initially have a lower points limit, perhaps four, so that if he causes an accident or breaks the law in some other way he can lose his licence far earlier and have to retake the test. That would be better than being allowed three or four accidents before the licence is removed.Education should also be more widely used to warn of the dangers of speed on the roads. The advertising industry has much to answer for. Some vehicles are advertised in a way that will attract people who wish to drive fast cars. Time and again, the fast car is presented as the vehicle for virile young men to prove their masculinity on the roads. That is wrong and other drivers are placed in danger by the emphasis on such cars.
Education in the home is also important. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) said that members of his family comment on the quality of his driving. It has been proved that competent drivers--I am sure that that describes my hon. Friend--influence members of their families who are learning to drive. People tend to imitate some of the habits of their parents on the roads. Parental persuasion is therefore important.
Mr. Stern : The picture conjured up by my hon. Friend is mind- boggling. On the principle that he advocates, if my daughter emulates her parents while being driven by them she will look around the car for another back-seat driver.
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Mr. Evans : I am sure that many people suffer from a similar problem. More discussion is needed of the measures that are necessary to reduce the number of incidents and accidents on our roads. 2.27 pm
Lady Olga Maitland (Sutton and Cheam) : I welcome the Bill because the time has come to take a much more disciplined approach to newly qualified drivers. We should seek examples in Northern Ireland and overseas. For instance, Germany applies strict rules under which the licence of a first offender is taken away and he has to resit the driving test. The authorities in Australia are extremely tough on young drivers. That is right because most offences are caused by teenage boy racers and the time has come to stop them racing and showing off. If we can clip their wings we shall do a great service for mankind because fatalities in the 16 to 19 age group is disproportionate to all other age groups. I hope that the Bill receives a fair wind, if not today on another occasion. Perhaps it can be reintroduced later. The time has come to take a firm grip. What do we mean by allowing newly qualified drivers on the roads without any supervision or restriction?
2.29 pm
Mr. Michael Stern (Bristol, North-West) : I intend to be brief. Given the time, I will be brief. However, I wish to make two points. The first, which has not yet been made, concerns the showing of signs on the vehicle. I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) gets as confused as I do by the multiplicity of signs on the backs of cars. I am a little worried, and he will have to be careful about how the Bill defines the regulations-- It being half-past Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : Debate to be resumed what day? No day named.
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Remaining Private Members' Bills
DECLARATION OF WAR (REQUIREMENT FOR PARLIAMENTARY APPROVAL) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
HOMICIDE (DEFENCE OF PROVOCATION) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
PENSIONS BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
MARITIME SAFETY BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
JUSTICE BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
DRUGS ENFORCEMENT BILL
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : Not moved.
EMPLOYMENT PROTECTION (PARENTAL LEAVE) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
REGULATION OF WHEEL-CLAMPING BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
NATIONAL SCHOOL HEALTH SERVICE BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL
Read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing Order No. 61 (Committal of Bills).
HOUSE PURCHASE (SIMPLIFICATION) BILL
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
CHRONICALLY SICK AND DISABLED PERSONS (AMENDMENT) BILL Order for Second Reading read.
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Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
WEDDINGS BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
HARE COURSING BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
EUROPEAN UNION (PUBLIC INFORMATION) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
HUMAN FERTILISATION (CHOICE) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 23 April.
ENERGY CONSERVATION BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 2 July.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That, at the sitting on Wednesday 31st March, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Orders No. 14 (Exempted business) and No. 15 (Prayers against statutory instruments, &c. (negative procedure)), the Speaker shall not later than Seven o'clock put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name of Mr. Secretary Lang relating to Legal Aid and Advice (Scotland) and on such of the Motions in the name of Mr. John Smith relating to Legal Aid and Advice as may then be moved.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
Ordered,
That, at the sitting on Thursday 1st April, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House), the Motion in the name of the Prime Minister for the adjournment of the House shall not lapse at Ten o'clock and may be proceeded with, though opposed, until Eight o'clock in the morning, at which hour, unless proceedings thereon have previously been concluded, the Motion shall lapse.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
EUROPEAN STANDING COMMITTEES
Resolved,
That European Community Document No. 4608/93, on the prices for agricultural products and on related measures, 1993-94, shall not stand referred to European Standing Committee A.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.] Points of Order
Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My point of order is about the availability of papers for Monday's debate on coal. You will recall that yesterday, as reported at columns 1233 and 1234 of Hansard, the President of the Board of Trade referred to the French interconnector.
Following those exchanges, I asked the Library whether I could be provided with a copy of that
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agreement. I have been advised by the Library that the agreement consists of the original protocol, which was signed in 1981, and subsequent commercial agreements. None of the commercial agreements is in the public domain. The original protocol has never been made public either, although part of one of the articles was quoted in a recent report from the Select Committee on Trade and Industry. The report of the Committee, which was published on Wednesday 2 December 1992, contained a quotation from article 14 of the protocol. The White Paper that is the subject of Monday's debate makes numerous references to the French interconnector between pages 55 and 58, as well as references to the protocol. The report of the Select Committee is of considerable importance in the context of Monday's debate, and it makes extensive comments also on the protocol and the subsequent agreement.Bearing in mind the vital interest in the French interconnector, the agreement and the protocol, which have never been made available or published, and bearing in mind also the direct quotations in the report of the Select Committee on Trade and Industry, I urge you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and perhaps Madam Speaker, to reflect on whether the protocol and all the subsequent agreements relating to the French interconnector should be made available in time for Monday's debate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : I am sure that the hon. Member realises that the occupants of the Treasury Bench will have heard his point of order. Presumably they will act accordingly.
Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) has raised a most important matter. I heard what you said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, about my hon. Friend's point of order being heard by those on the Treasury Bench, but there is a ruling that if documents are referred to on the Floor of the House they should be provided subsequently. They certainly should be provided for the debate on Monday. There is a great deal of political capital--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. That rule applies only when there is a direct quotation from a state paper.
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London Taxis
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
2.36 pm
Mr. Vivian Bendall (Ilford, North) : First, I declare an interest ; I represent the London Taxi Drivers Association. My representation is listed in the Register of Members' Interests. In this instance, however, I am not representing only the association. I believe that I shall be speaking for the vast majority of black-cab drivers in London. Therefore, this is a significant debate.
I initiated the debate because of the speculation that has recently appeared in much of the national press and the London evening press. I refer especially to an article that appeared on 2 March in the Evening Standard, which said :
"Mr. Norris has now decided to impose the same minicab regulations in London as the rest of the country."
That is causing great concern and distress to most of the black-cab drivers in London, who now number about 20,000.
I am sorry that I have had to bring my hon. Friend the Minister into the Chamber on a Friday afternoon ; I appreciate the onerous duties of a Minister. However, given the distress that has been caused to London taxi drivers, I felt that it was necessary to bring the matter to the attention of the House.
I begin by referring to a report from the Department of Transport working party on the safety of users of taxis and minicabs in London, which was published in July 1992. Paragraph 23 states :
"If the Government were minded to propose a two-tier system of licensing in London, we believe that it should first look hard at the provincial system and any difficulties being experienced there." That is the crux of the matter. When we consider what is being experienced in Birmingham and other parts of the midlands, it is clear that many problems are being caused by the 1976 legislation. It was interesting to note that Tony Cross, a trading standards officer in Birmingham, recently said that he believed tht the only real way to work in the provinces was to have a one-tier system.
There is fear that my hon. Friend the Minister will begin to introduce a two-tier system for the licensing of black and minicabs in London. That would be a slippery slope. It would give minicabs an air of respectability that they have not had previously. Everything comes down to what the driver of a licensed black cab has to do. Many people do not understand that he has to put in an immense amount of effort to obtain a green or yellow badge, and in particular the green badge. He has to do the knowledge for two years. Then, once he has acquired his vehicle, it has to be inspected twice a year. If the minicab is to be licensed and given that air of respectability, there will be not a level playing field, but a two-tier system, and slowly but surely we shall see the decline of the black cab. I shall explain how that will occur as a I develop my argument.
My second point, which is of paramount importance, is that one of the major problems in London, as elsewhere, is illegal touting by minicab drivers. Although that is illegal, there are only five enforcement officers in London, so touting continues unabated and unchecked. If the minicab driver is given a licence, and the air of respectability that goes with that, people will be even more confused.
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Currently, the police appear unable to stop that plying for hire ; nor can they stop the ranking that occurs, for example, outside clubs and theatres. There is continuous touting at large railway stations, especially at weekends. The problem was recently highlighted when the police decided to purge Victoria station, which resulted in a great number of convictions. However, usually there is not sufficient enforcement to prevent that practice.If we go down the slippery slope of a two-tier licensing system, London will experience the problems currently being experienced in areas such as Birmingham, where there are taxi wars and violent disputes not only between minicab drivers and black-cab drivers, but among the various members of the minicab trade. That will happen in London, but at 100 times the level in the provinces. The 1976 Act has failed for a number of reasons. We need to create a system that will resolve the problems once and for all.
The black cab has been part of London's heritage since the days of the hansom cab. It has successfully competed throughout the century. It is part of the London scene and part of the heritage of this great city. Like the Tower of London, Buckingham palace and Westminster abbey, the black cab is part of the London scene and a great tourist attraction. It is also part of the integrated London transport system. What incentive will there be for black-cab drivers to continue buying a black cab and to do the knowledge? A purpose-built cab costs £24,000. One can easily buy an ordinary new car to use as a minicab for £8,000, or a second-hand vehicle for as little as £3,000 or £4,000. If there is no future for the black cab, that will be a sad day for London and for a trade which has given great service to the capital over many decades.
Another problem results from the evolution of the radio cab, which allows taxis to be booked by telephone--particularly for company contract work. That business might start to die because there would not be fair competition. Black cab fares are set by the Government, but minicabs charge whatever they like. One could soon see the demise of the contract sector, with all the consequences that would follow. If drivers were compelled to move away from radio-circuit work and had to ply for hire on the streets, that would add to the likelihood of cab wars of the kind seen in Birmingham and elsewhere. The black cab also contributes significantly to helping the disabled, with their ability to accommodate wheelchairs. That facility is not generally available in minicabs. The demise of the black cab would bring problems for the disabled. It has long been Government policy to ensure that the disabled have an opportunity to use black cabs and that every black cab will be able to accommodate wheelcharis by the year 2000.
The provision of that facility has increased the price of the black cab, quite apart from the original cost of developing it. Sir Peter Baldwin of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee and Ann Fry have done immense work to help the disabled and are very much against the likely consequences of any diminution in the black cab. Dial-a-Ride and Taxicard users are opposed to a two-tier system. One must consider also the disastrous effect on black-cab production. It is a British-produced vehicle. Given the erosion of our industrial base over the years, it would be sad to see yet another part of it lost. The LTI and Metrocab have worked unceasingly to ensure more success for the black cab. In the past two years, LTI production
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