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The Chairman : Order. Danish opinion polls do not come under the amendments that are before the Committee.

Mr. Robertson : I appreciate that ruling, Mr. Morris. What counts, as we all say as politicians, is the vote on 18May. That is the ultimate judgment.

Mr. Cash rose --

Mr. Robertson : I shall not give way, because I intend to be brief so that other hon. Members may participate in this important debate. I return to my argument on title I : that an important principle unites not just the Front-Bench spokesmen, who have been accused throughout the ratification process of being in cahoots, but my hon. Friends, who normally do not agree with me about the outcome of the process. That principle is that we should not over-legislate on Europe. In relation to Europe there should be minimum United Kingdom legislation.

Mr. Corbyn : Before my hon. Friend leaves entirely the whole subject of the future of the European Community, would he care to put on the record exactly what improvements the Danish Parliament has negotiated for its people for the referendum ?

The Chairman : Order. That is not relevant.

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Column 323

Mr. Robertson : Not this evening, no. It will be decided on 18 May in Denmark, and that has nothing to do with the House of Commons.

Mr. Rowlands : Will my hon. Friend give way ? I do apologise to him.

Mr. Robertson : I give way only and finally on the ground that Mr. Keir Hardie, former parliamentarian, was once an inhabitant of my constituency but went to my hon. Friend's constituency to represent it. Simply in the light of that sentimental fact, I will give way to my hon. Friend.

Mr. Rowlands : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, whatever the reason. He told the Committee that the Danes were voting for the treaty plus the social chapter. But they are also now voting for the treaty minus monetary union, because what they did in December was to give formal notification that they would not go to the third stage of economic and monetary union. It is important to realise that, while accepting the social chapter, the Danes have rejected monetary union.

Mr. Robertson : The Danes have indeed said that they will not proceed to the third stage of monetary union, and that is something on which they will be voting. It will be their decision. I would say to my hon. Friend, in relation to our distinguished predecessor, Keir Hardie, that on the eve of the first world war he called for a united states of Europe. Clearly that is not a tradition that has drifted down the Welsh valleys over the years.

Mr. Rowlands : Not along the Maastricht lines.

Mr. Robertson : Whether on Maastricht lines or not, I am not in favour of a united states of Europe, although I could see its attraction in a year like 1914.

I go back to the main point of my speech, which is that we should not over- legislate. There are dangers here. European legislation has a particular, specific and privileged status in British law. It is that, where we legislate, we give precedence to European law, automatic precedence over domestic, United Kingdom law. We should therefore be wary of legislating where we need not legislate. This title in this part of the treaty is something that need not be part of the European Communities (Amendment) Bill and need not be part of those United Kingdom laws affected by the Maastricht treaty or by any of the other treaties, and therefore we should reject the amendment. The principle of minimum legislation in the European area is something that should appeal both to those who are enthusiastic about Europe and those who are, to put it mildly, sceptical about the great European experience. That is what this debate is really about, however far it has ranged this evening. That is why I believe that this is an amendment that should not be supported.

Mr. Greg Knight (Lords Commissioner to the Treasury) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put :--

The Committee divided : Ayes 197, Noes 27.

Division No. 222 [3.34 am

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Alexander, Richard

Amess, David

Ancram, Michael

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Ashby, David

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Column 324

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Baldry, Tony

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Beresford, Sir Paul

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bowden, Andrew

Bowis, John

Brandreth, Gyles

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs. Angela

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Peter

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carrington, Matthew

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Colvin, Michael

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)

Davies, Quentin (Stamford)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Devlin, Tim

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Durant, Sir Anthony

Elletson, Harold

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Fabricant, Michael

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Fishburn, Dudley

Forth, Eric

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

French, Douglas

Gale, Roger

Gallie, Phil

Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan

Garnier, Edward

Gillan, Cheryl

Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Grylls, Sir Michael

Hague, William

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hanley, Jeremy

Hannam, Sir John

Hargreaves, Andrew

Harris, David

Haselhurst, Alan

Hawkins, Nick

Hayes, Jerry

Heald, Oliver

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

Hicks, Robert

Hill, James (Southampton Test)

Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)

Horam, John

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Johnston, Sir Russell

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Key, Robert

Kilfedder, Sir James

Kirkhope, Timothy

Kirkwood, Archy

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Knight, Greg (Derby N)

Knox, David

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Leigh, Edward

Lennox-Boyd, Mark

Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

Lidington, David

Lightbown, David

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Luff, Peter

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

MacKay, Andrew

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Maitland, Lady Olga

Malone, Gerald

Mans, Keith

Marland, Paul

Marshall, John (Hendon S)

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Merchant, Piers

Milligan, Stephen

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)

Monro, Sir Hector

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Needham, Richard

Nelson, Anthony

Neubert, Sir Michael

Newton, Rt Hon Tony

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

Norris, Steve

Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley

Oppenheim, Phillip

Ottaway, Richard

Page, Richard

Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Pickles, Eric

Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

Portillo, Rt Hon Michael

Rathbone, Tim

Redwood, John

Renton, Rt Hon Tim

Richards, Rod

Riddick, Graham

Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)

Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)

Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

Sackville, Tom

Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Soames, Nicholas

Speed, Sir Keith

Spencer, Sir Derek

Spink, Dr Robert

Spring, Richard

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