House of Commons Hansard Debates for 1 Apr 1993

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Ealing, a large and relatively poor borough, receives no discretionary grants. One third of Ealing's population comes from non-white, ethnic groups. Hackney, one of the poorest boroughs in the country, receives no discretionary grants and one third of its population comes from minority ethnic groups. Haringey, which has similar statistics for the composition of its population, receives no discretionary grants. Harrow, admittedly a Conservative borough, but one which has a relatively high ethnic population, receives no discretionary grants. In my borough of Lambeth, which is poor--either the second or the fourth most deprived in the country--three out of 10 people come from non-white ethnic groups, there is a high concentration of working-class and unemployed people and it receives no discretionary grants.

In Newham, four out of every 10 of the population come from ethnic minority groups and the borough is relatively poor. It receives no discretionary grants. The same is true of Tower Hamlets, which is a relatively poor borough. Only one borough among such a group receives any discretionary grants : the London borough of Brent. However, I am told that even in that borough the grants are limited in scope and may be abolished.

Other statistics provided by the College of Law show that in 1989-90, 64 per cent. of students who had received their degrees and were going on to obtain their final professional qualifications received local authority discretionary grants. In the year 1992-93, only 24 per cent. of the students going to the College of Law will do so with a grant from their local authority. Other surveys carried out by the College of Law highlight a serious problem. They show that 58 per cent. of a sample of almost 100 law students who had been offered places at professional training schools-- which are like gold dust--had to turn them down. Some 58 per cent. of those who turned down their places had to do so for financial reasons because in most cases they could not get a discretionary grant from their local authority. An even worse scandal is illustrated by the case of one of my constituents, a working-class woman who was refused a discretionary grant. She used her own money to study for her first degree at university and did not receive a single penny of as a solicitor, she was refused a discretionary grant because there was no money in the kitty. That is an appalling state of affairs.

The combination of the discretionary grant system for professional examinations for trainee lawyers and the financial pressure on local authorities results in discrimination against working-class students. It is no good mincing words--they are poorer people.

Furthermore, there is discrimination against minorities--as my figures from London boroughs show. There is discrimination against married women who may have degrees, who have started a family and then want to get professional qualifications later in life, but cannot get any kind of grant. The worst kind of discrimination occurs against those who paid for their own degree courses and still cannot get a grant for the last year of their professional qualifications. The dramatic collapse in public funding for those wanting to go into the legal profession inevitably narrows the base of the profession and guarantees the continued narrow social base of the judiciary and has further effects.

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I am not criticising individual members of the judiciary because I have a good deal of admiration for people such as the Lord Chief Justice and Lord Justice Woolf. Figures show that the

judiciary--especially the senior judiciary--is dominated by people who went either to Oxford or Cambridge, who came from affluent backgrounds, who on the whole are male, white and from upper-class backgrounds. I do not mean all the judiciary and I stress that I am not criticising individuals, but the narrowing of the profession means a narrowing of the base from which the judiciary is drawn. It may be possible to have sponsorship--the firm of which I am a member provides some sponsorship--but the recession has reduced that possibility. That is why the matter is more urgent than ever before. The recession has reduced the amount of available sponsorship so that those practices dealing with legal aid--the sort of high street practice which a working-class person would be able to get into more often, but not exclusively--are the least equipped to afford to take on trainee solicitors, or articled clerks as they used to be called. That was how I started. It is not malicious but real discrimination against people on the grounds of their social status before they study for articles.

To illustrate how such discrimination can be compounded, the Society of Labour Lawyers conducted a survey recently and found that black law students were rejected five times more often than white students when applying to law practices. That is a considerable hurdle to leap before entering the profession.

I appreciate that the profession is concerned about equal opportunities. The Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 was introduced exactly for that purpose. If we want a classless society and a classless nation, we must have a classless judiciary and a classless legal profession--including stipendiary magistrates, county court judges, recorders and even the highest judges in the land--from which that is drawn. A dramatic collapse in the discretionary grants system and the number of less affluent people able to enter the profession means that in 10 or 15 years' time the judiciary will not reflect the society in which we live.

If the Government were to announce that grants to enter the profession for that single year were not discretionary but mandatory, the problem would be solved. "Mandatory" is the right word because the House has a duty to ensure that we create a classless society in which the professions and the judiciary are not dominated by a single segment of the population.

5.54 pm

Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North) : I hope that the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) will forgive me if I do not follow the road that he has just travelled, which is obviously one of which he has great knowledge and expertise. I also hope that he will realise that I offer him no discourtesy when I say that I am a little disappointed that the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) was not called before him. If that had happened, it would have given me the chance to thank the hon. Member for Tooting for his kind words after my maiden speech some 14 years ago. I am still awaiting an opportunity to do so. If he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and follows me, he may wish to reiterate those remarks of many years ago.

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Before we rise for the Easter recess, I wish to draw the attention of the House to two matters that have become topical within the past 24 hours. The first is raves, which was the subject of a statement from my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, in answer to a question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Westminister, North (Sir J. Wheeler). The second is illegal camping by gipsies, which was the subject of a statement by my right and learned hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

Regrettably, my constituency and others have, over the past few months, suffered from the new rave parties, which have meant many thousands of youngsters gathering together in various locations, frequently illegally and usually on a Saturday evening, to enjoy musical entertainment. That sounds completely innocent, but more often than not they take place in buildings that are unsuitable and unsafe for such gatherings. It is also regrettable that--admittedly allegedly--they are a haven for drug pushers and dealers, to the detriment of the young people involved.

We in the Luton area have had our fair share of problems, although the police, with the co-operation of the local councils in Bedfordshire, have taken out a High Court injunction, obviously at an expense to the local charge payers, to prevent such gatherings. Our police regularly gather together on a Friday or even a Saturday evening to try to prevent such activities, which are so well advertised in various ways to those intending to participate that we have had to ask local forces to be on standby so that police can stop a rave before it takes place, or go in and break it up.

That is why I particularly welcome the statement from my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary that the Government have recognised that that is a problem and will give the police new powers so that they can stop any vehicle driven by someone intending to go to a rave within five miles of the place where it is to be held. They will also try to discourage the organisers of the events. Only recently--the case was mentioned in the national news--there was a large gathering outside Luton police station on the Sunday morning. Admittedly it consisted mainly of what I hope were peace-loving people, but attacks were made on the police station because the police had enforced the law and tried to break up those events. I and my constituents are concerned that hard-earned council tax payers' money is having to be diverted to discourage and prevent such events. Local authorities, faced with the financial burden that they impose, and possibly the moral burden because of parental objections, have tried to offer alternative sites for legal raves, but have been turned down.

Hon. Members know that no entry fee is charged for these events, partly because they take place in other people's property, so there is no hire fee. Buildings are often broken into for the purpose. One wonders where the finances come from to keep such activities going. Their organisation must cost some money.

The biggest concern that has been expressed to me by my constituents relates to drug taking at these events. There are those who support organisers, such as Exodus in my constituency. I received a letter recently from a parent of two teenage children which says : "Whilst I am aware that drugs are a problem associated with the rave scene, I know the Exodus group are doing their best to prevent and educate young people about drug taking.

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Any club or gathering of young people will have drugs present and drug-taking going on, it is part of the youth scene and will always be. Is it not better to educate young people about drugs and their dangers than try to ban events where it is suspected drugs will be present ?"

That may be a minority view among parents, but it is one with which we must contend. That letter would seemingly come from a responsible parent seeking my assistance, and there are others with such an attitude. The House must understand that raves are dangerous, and worrying for parents who have little idea where their children are going when they set off in their various groups, over which they have little control.

Organisers of such events have illegally squatted in various properties in and around the Luton area. Only recently, it was brought to my attention that a property purchased by the Department of Transport as a result of the proposed widening of the M1 had been illegally occupied by organisers from the Exodus group. However, they have since taken out a tenancy. A redundant old people's home that is awaiting planning permission is also illegally occupied by rave organisers.

If those organisers are genuine in their intent to offer entertainment to young people and not to allow the passage and sale of drugs, surely they should not resort to such illegal activities. On Saturday morning, at my advice bureau, I shall be discussing the problem with a small delegation accompanied by a local Labour councillor. I am pleased that, as a result of the Government's statement in the past 24 hours, I shall be able to tell them that, if such organisers do act illegally, they will be sat on by Her Majesty's Government.

My only regret is that legislation is to be delayed because, as the Home Secretary said, there is no room in the parliamentary timetable to bring it forward. That will be a great disappointment to my constituents, police forces, local borough councillors and everyone else involved--not least the people of Wales and the south-west who suffered last summer from illegal encampments on their land. That may have been a slightly different type of activity, but it rightly gave rise to similar Government outrage as a result of representations by hon. Members. However, because of the apparent tightness of parliamentary time, we cannot consider the matter, presumably until the new Session.

In this debate, we seek to raise matters that we believe should be dealt with before the House rises for the Easter recess, but despite the extreme powers wielded by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House in this place, he will be unable to promise me that. However, I hope that he will speak to the Home Secretary and emphasise that we could run into further trouble in the summer and that, having proposed legislation, the Government will not be thanked if it cannot be put on to the statute book.

The other half of what I wish to say is an attendant subject that has been aired frequently on the Floor of the House and was mentioned in Prime Minister's Question Time this afternoon. I make no apology for raising again the subject of illegal camping by so-called gipsies. Again, I welcome the statement made only yesterday by the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Baldry), that, having received a consultation paper some months ago,

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along with many responses to it, the Government were seriously considering legislation on the illegal occupation of public and private land by so-called gipsies.

It should be said immediately that there is a difficulty of definition, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Sir C. Onslow) identified when he introduced a Bill on the subject on 5 February--the distinction between the old, rather romantic Romany gipsy who has been with us for many centuries and has a part in Britain's life and culture, about which no one would argue, particularly in East Anglia where I live, and the new age travellers, as they are called--the tinkers or whatever--who are the scourge of so many people's lives and who have probably created an urgent need for the House to consider appropriate legislation to deal with the problem.

The problem has accelerated since the original Caravan Sites Act 1968. Lord Lubbock and Mr. Norman Dodds, then the hon. Member for Dartford, introduced legislation intended to cope with some 3,500 gipsies. We are now faced with some 13,500 people--if one can count them--who purport to be gipsies, but who in no sense are part of the original number.

It is the behaviour of the travellers which has caused so much trouble and distress to our constituents. They illegally occupy land, often breaking through padlocks on farm land, parking on lay-bys or attendant ground near roads, harassing farmers, going close to residential areas and sometimes moving on to building sites which are often owned by distant landlords or public authorities.

Only recently, in the Leagrave area of Luton, we had a problem with travellers squatting on a piece of land owned by British Rail. The Government have given increased powers to the police and the courts to move such people on more quickly than used to be the case, but it still takes time to move illegal occupants.

The second aspect is the the fact that, almost without exception, such people behave badly. Many of my hon. Friends will have had experience of constituents complaining about the bad behaviour of travellers. There is verbal abuse, not just from adults but from the children as well, physical abuse if people try to reason with them or ask them to reduce their activities, and the damage that they inflict on property in the countryside, in towns, on building sites or wherever. Such behaviour is the inevitable consequence of illegal occupation by a group of travellers. In addition, they often perform illegal activities--some admittedly alleged and hearsay--in and around the areas where they choose to squat.

Not long ago, near my own home, a local shopkeeper was harassed by a group of travellers pilfering and stealing certain items, and the poor man and his wife and family were totally unable to stop that intrusion. Most constituents could give witness to the fact that shoplifting occurs, that the menace of burglary is always present and that burglaries occur.

The last act of bad behaviour of travellers is the mess they leave. Apart from the obvious danger to human and animal health, an enormous amount of rubbish is left for someone else to clear up--either the landowner, at his own expense, or the local council. I pay credit to my own local authority of Mid-Bedfordshire for clearing up such sites. That is done at a cost to the council tax payer, with no contribution by those who used the site.

Remedies to remove such people must be found much more quickly, so I welcome the announcement by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment

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that the police will have powers to move on such travellers, and that caravan sites owned and run by gipsies themselves will be developed.

I had hoped that legislation would reach the statute book sooner rather than later, and I am disappointed that it will be later. When it does, I trust that local authorities will talk to responsible gipsy organisations, which one hopes will purchase and run sites, because they are fed up with being tarred with the brush of the travellers--as other are tired of the nuisance caused by travellers who do nothing more than opt out of society and every form of responsibility.

Only recently, a site was proposed in my constituency, near the villages of Westoning and Harlington. For reasons that I have described, the villagers objected to that proposal, rightly, to their Member of Parliament. I received shoals of letters and many personal representations. There were a couple of public meetings, and both local parish councils opposed the site. The most forcible objections came from the local McIntyre home for the handicapped, which was desperately worried that people of the kind likely to occupy such a site would cause difficulties for the home's residents.

I made my objections known to the county council in a fairly forcible manner--so forcible that I was stamped upon by the Commission for Racial Equality for my remark that such persons had no place in my constituency, which the commission deemed to be racist, and which therefore made me liable to prosecution.

In the debate on 5 February, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Wells) related a similar problem when he objected on behalf of his constituents to the illegal occupation of land. The CRE immediately prosecuted him. In my case, a court order was entered against me. It is disgraceful that Members of Parliament, who express sometimes personal opinions but mainly opinions put by their constituents, should be abused by an organisation such as the Commission for Racial Equality in an attempt to prevent them from voicing objections that are made to them.

Apparently the CRE has the power to attempt to curb views expressed by Members of Parliament. I concur in that regard with my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford. In my own case, when the CRE decided not to prosecute me for the remarks that I had made on behalf of my constituents, the Crown prosecution service, not wanting to miss out on the act, jumped in and stated that it intended to prosecute me. There followed lengthy police interviews with me and various objectors, as well as with witnesses from the local television and radio stations and newspapers, which continued for some 12 months. At the end of the day, the Crown prosecution service decided that I should not be prosecuted.

I strongly object to an attempt, even by that organisation, to curb the remarks of a Member of Parliament made without the privilege attached to comments made on the Floor of the House. That incident personally cost me a considerable amount of money in solicitors' fees. I am not particularly bothered about that--I am more worried about representations. However, it is wrong that Members of Parliament who want to voice objections should be complained against by such organisations.

I am delighted that the Government have introduced two relevant measures, but in the discussions that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has with his

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colleagues in the Home Office and in the Department of the Environment, I hope that he will make it clear that, although both measures are admirable, time must be found to debate them and to put them on the statute book at the earliest opportunity.

The scourge I have described is, regrettably, growing. Some constituents are suffering the consequences daily. If raves continue as they are, young people will be in danger. Residents also are in danger, and their homes and lives are ruined by the presence of such people. I urge the Government, having taken the initiative, to take up the cudgels sooner rather than later.

6.16 pm

Mr. Tom Cox (Tooting) : It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle). We have both been Members of Parliament for some time and, although we may not have much in common on many political issues, the great strength of the House is that right hon. and hon. Members respect one another and regard each other as not only parliamentary colleagues but friends. I listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman's views on the two subjects that he raised. Thankfully, my constituents do not suffer from either problem, but I know that many right hon. and hon. Members, irrespective of party, have constituents who do.

Although the kind of parties to which the hon. Gentleman referred are not common in my constituency, my constituents suffer from the continuous playing of loud music, hour after hour. People are driven to total distraction. The police say, "What can we do? We cannot keep going there." I share the hon. Gentleman's welcome for any power that the police or any other authority can be given by the Government to bring some justice to constituents who suffer continuous playing of loud music. As the lighter evenings approach in the spring and summer, by golly, they will suffer yet again. The hon. Member for Luton, North has done the House a service in raising those two issues. In the Christmas Consolidated Fund debate, I addressed the House on Kashmir, and I return to that subject today. It is an issue which concerns Parliament, because many right hon. and hon. Members, irrespective of party, have constituents with a deep interest in the affairs of Kashmir. The sad and tragic well-documented events of the past are still occurring, despite the worries and protests of individuals and organisations that are deeply concerned about the role and behaviour of the Indian security forces in occupied Kashmir.

Important changes have taken place. For instance, the all-party parliamentary Kashmiri group met the Foreign Secretary in the House on 18 January. The meeting was extremely well attended : it was attended both by Labour and Conservative Members, and by Liberal Democrats. I have already paid a warm tribute personally to the Foreign Secretary, who spent well over an hour at the meeting and listened to the comments of virtually every hon. Member who attended it. Having done so, he said--among many other things--that he was deeply concerned by the lack of action to protect the human rights of people in the occupied area of Kashmir, from the very young to the very elderly. He also agreed with the group that an all-party parliamentary delegation should be allowed to visit the area.

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Both the Foreign Secretary and members of the group made many other comments during the meeting. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was there to hear Members' views because he, in turn, would brief the Prime Minister before his official visit to India a few days later : that, indeed, had been the purpose of the meeting itself. I have tabled a number of questions to the Prime Minister about his visit. I tabled one on 22 January ; the Prime Minister replied : "I expect my discussions with the Indian Prime Minister to include the situation in Kashmir and our concerns about human rights."--[ Official Report, 22 January 1993 ; Vol. 217, c. 527 .]

We must assume that such discussions took place, but many of us find it regrettable that we have learnt little about them, except from press reports. The Prime Minister has made no statement to the House, and he clearly will not do so now.

On 17 February, I asked the Prime Minister how he intended to monitor the commitment of the Prime Minister of India to respect human rights in Kashmir. He replied that he would reply to me shortly. I am still waiting for that reply ; I assume that it will come eventually.

The Prime Minister of Pakistan visited London this week, and met our Prime Minister. We must assume that they discussed the issue of Kashmir, but the House has had no opportunity to ask the Prime Minister about those discussions. Many hon. Members, irrespective of party, are deeply concerned : the Kashmiri issue is fundamentally important to the House. It was a British Parliament which, 40-odd years ago, made a clear commitment to the people of Kashmir that they would be allowed to choose their future. Sadly, they have not had that opportunity.

We know of the abuses of human rights that have been perpetrated by the Indian occupying forces. Those abuses continue. I have details of a serious incident that took place on 6 January in Sapore, which is part of the occupied area. The reports clearly state that, tragically, people were killed, and that homes, shops and businesses were deliberately burned out by the Indian security forces. Again, the House has had little or no opportunity to ask what representations the British Government are making to the Indian Government. What we do know is that, despite the Foreign Secretary's stated belief that an all-party delegation should go to Kashmir, no progress has been made in that regard.

If the Indian Government have nothing to hide, why do they repeatedly refuse to allow such visits? Many highly respected Members of Parliament from all parties, some of whom have been here for many years, belong to the Kashmiri group. They will continue to press the Indian authorities to allow an all-party delegation to go and see exactly what is happening in the part of Kashmir that is controlled by the Indian Government and their security forces.

The Indian Government are now accusing Pakistan of terrorist offences. I assume that many other hon. Members will have been sent the documents containing those allegations, which have circulated in the House for the past week or so. This week, I took up the allegations with the Pakistani high commission in London. The commission said that the Pakistani Government did not intend to enter into such a dialogue or to attack other countries as they were being attacked. The high commission made it clear

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that it would welcome the United Nations, parliamentarians and independent groups, and that they could meet whomever they wished to meet to follow up the Indian Government's allegations.

Many hon. Members see that as yet another attempt by the Indian Government to distract attention from what deeply concerns the House, and is often raised here--the fundamental human right of men and women to decide their future, and the on-going abuses whose tragic occurrence was acknowledged by the Foreign Secretary. Until the Indian Government stop those abuses and allow Members of Parliament--or, indeed, other organisations--to see exactly what is happening, hon. Members will continue to put pressure on them. This is not a party issue : many Conservative Members are as committed as I am to the rights of the people of Kashmir, and I pay tribute to them.

I have referred to the events of 40-odd years ago. It is important to read speeches that were made a long time ago--speeches that have been forgotten by many people. It is interesting to read the comments of the last Viceroy of India, Lord Mountbatten, and the commitments that he gave to the people of Kashmir over 40 years ago. To those commitments we can add the resolutions on Kashmir that successive British Governments have supported.

On 8 January of this year, I received a letter from the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Mr. Lennox-Boyd). Before referring to that letter, may I thank the Leader of the House sincerely for having replied to the last debate on the Adjournment motion on this subject? He said then that he was not in a position to answer the points that I had raised, but that he would take them up. To his credit, not only did he take them up but I received a substantial reply from the Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I thanked him for what he said in that letter. I shall refer to a few of his comments, for it is important that they should be on the record. In his letter the Under-Secretary of State said :

"The continuing violence"--

he was referring to the violence in Kashmir--

"is a reminder that the position of Kashmir cannot be allowed to fester indefinitely We have also emphasised to the Indian Government the importance of a genuine political process within Kashmir in which the aspirations of the population can be accommodated."

The Under-Secretary's final point--the previous two are important, but this one is the reason why hon. Members are so concerned about events in Kashmir --was :

"We have also impressed on the Indian Government our concerns about human rights abuses by the Indian security forces in Kashmir and the need to improve the situation there. There can be no doubt that serious abuses have taken place".

I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary's openness and frankness Against those comments and the background of the continuing abuse of Kashmir as a country and, more importantly, the continuing abuse of the human rights of the people of Kashmir, I have to ask when we, as a country, and the Government intend to take much more decisive action on this issue. The three countries that are most directly involved are Pakistan, India and the United Kingdom. All three countries are members of the Commonwealth. It is not as though we are involved with countries with which we have no links, or of which we have no understanding. We have known, and have had associations with, those countries for many years. Therefore, we have a very special relationship with them.

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At the meeting on 18 January, the Foreign Secretary said that the Kashmiri issue would not go away and that the status quo was unacceptable. How right he was. Many hon. Members, of all parties, will use the rights that they have, as Members of Parliament, to safeguard the interests of our constituents who have close links with Kashmir. They will also try to stop the appalling abuses that continue to be inflicted on the people of Kashmir by the Indian security forces that now occupy a country in which they are not wanted, in which they should not be and where they would not be if the people of Kashmir were given the opportunity to decide what their future should be.

6.24 pm

Mr. William Powell (Corby) : It is a pleasure, as always, to follow the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox). He does the House a considerable service by raising this issue. These occasions often lead to debates which are more interesting than those that we have on other issues during the rest of the parliamentary year and on which we spend far more time. I very much agree with what the hon. Gentleman said.

I urge my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House also to accept the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) and to convey them to his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. I strongly support, too, what was said by the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) about the financing of legal education. Although his speech was delivered in his own distinctive and idiosyncratic style, which does not necessarily command the widest possible support in the House, the right hon. Mem satisfactory and quick responses from the agencies to which the right hon. Member for Gorton referred. The style of the right hon. Gentleman's speech will not necessarily command the widest possible support, but its underlying theme is more widely supported by hon. Members in all parties than my right hon. Friends may care to suppose or imagine.

There is one recommendation in the Jopling report which I hope my right hon. Friend will have no difficulty in rejecting. I know that he wishes to make progress, that he must secure wide agreement in order to make progress and that that agreement may not be so easily forthcoming now as it might have been a year ago. I refer to the recommendation that these debates should be abandoned. I hope that my right hon. Friend will reject it. These debates always lead to interesting and wide-ranging discussions. I have participated in them on many occasions, as has my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess), who I see is in his usual place. Both he and I feel nostalgic, since we shall not hear our former colleague, Sir John Stokes, speak on this occasion. He used to make distinguished contributions on the state of the nation on all occasions when these debates were held. Their echo is much missed.

I intend to return to the issue that I raised in the Christmas Adjournment motion debate--the situation in Yugoslavia, which dominated our discussions. Today that has not been the case. Nevertheless, I wish to renew the plea that I made then for further progress towards the

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establishment of international criminal tribunals and an international criminal court so that the criminal justice deficiencies in Yugoslavia and in the world in general can be overcome. The establishment of such bodies would lead to more effective responses and remedies than is currently the case. This matter was raised at Prime Minister's Question Time, and I very much welcome the reply that the Prime Minister was able to give to the question of the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman), which I thought missed the point.

In response to the Christmas Adjournment motion debate, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said that he would draw my remarks to the attention of the Foreign Office, since there was no reasonable basis upon which I could expect him to reply in detail to what I had said. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend fulfilled his undertaking, but since then I have not heard a word from the Foreign Office. All too often, unfortunately, that is par for the course. What is not so often par for the course is that, having written in considerable detail to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 22 January, I have received no reply from him. That is wholly exceptional, and I hope that it will not become a pathfinder development in terms of the way in which No. 10 operates. Nevertheless, I welcome what our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had to say about this issue at Question Time.

Great Britain can be very proud of the way it has approached these very distressing matters in recent months. Much of the evidence about the commission of crimes and war crimes in the former Yugoslavia arises from British initiatives undertaken when this country occupied the chair of the Council of Ministers, from our work through the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe and, of course, from the commissioning of the reports of Sir John Thomson and Dame Anne Warburton. Dame Anne, who was just setting off to Yugoslavia when I raised this matter in the Christmas Adjournment motion debate, produced a report suggesting that about 20,000 crimes of rape may have been committed in the former Yugoslavia. Of course, she was accompanied on that occasion by Mrs. Simone Weil, who has just this week rejoined the French Government. A problem arises straight away. Unfortunately, there are not appended to Dame Anne Warburton's report, which consists of five pages, any witness statements or other evidence of the sort that would be admissible in a criminal court. Fortunately, the United Nations Security Council, in resolution 780 of last autumn, established a commission of experts. Even more fortunately, it appointed as one of those experts the redoubtable and formidable Professor M. Cherif Bassiouni of De Paul university, Chicago, to whose work I have referred in the House on many occasions. Professor Bassiouni is not a man to be trifled with. He was not prepared to entertain assertions of large-scale war crimes without any accompanying evidence of the sort that could be placed before a criminal court. The commission of experts appointed him to be the rapporteur of the gathering and analysis of facts. He has been hard at work and has established a database which includes the names of about 1,000 people against whom, if they are to be placed on trial, it may be possible to secure the necessary evidence of serious criminal offences. Professor Bassiouni is a man not to be underestimated. I shall return to his work shortly.

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In resolution 808, the Security Council authorised the United Nations Secretary-General, whom I had the privilege of meeting just a week or two ago, to produce by 22 April a report on how the Council might proceed to deal with the prosecution of persons wanted for war crimes and crimes in Yugoslavia. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister referred to that report this afteroon. My first plea to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, and through him to our right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is that when the Secretary-General puts his report before the Security Council, the Council is urged to proceed as rapidly as possible to a satisfactory conclusion. From discussions I had recently in New York with the Security Council president for this month-- the representative of Pakistan--I know that he wants the Council to move quickly. However, the report is to be produced by 22 April and May will arrive shortly, bringing a new Security Council president. No doubt, these matters will then take a week or two--perhaps more--to be resolved satisfactorily.

The task of prosecuting the 1,000 or so people whose names are on the database that Professor Bassiouni has established is indeed formidable. Some of the problems must be faced head-on by the members of the Security Council and by the international community at large. It will probably take two years to prosecute 1,000 people. Court buildings will be required ; a prosecutor will be necessary, and he will need a staff ; there will have to be an indictment chamber--hon. Members may call it what they will--for processing the applications of any special prosecutor with a view to bringing persons to trial. There are, of course, issues such as whether people should be tried in their absence. Indeed, there are all sorts of practical problems. However, these are no greater--in my view, they are rather less great--than the practical problems of bringing to trial alleged war criminals resident in this country who may have committed unspeakable offences in Nazi-occupied territory 50 years ago, and we have provided a budget of about £10 million each year for the purpose of bringing those people to trial.

Although in the case of Yugoslavia the problems are great, they are not insuperable. Where there is a will, there is a way. Having talked to more than two thirds of the members of the Security Council in recent weeks, I am certain that there is a will and that the Council can move to a satisfactory conclusion. I suggest that the Council appoint a chief judge at a very early stage. A court centre will be needed. There are only three possible locations--Trieste in Italy, Ljubljana in Slovenia and Pecs in Hungary. Trieste will probably be the choice. I hope that discussions are being held with the Italian Government to establish whether the necessary space can be made available there.

Above all else, a special prosecutor will be needed, and he will need a staff to collate and prepare the evidence and to place before the indicting chamber such information, warrants, and so on, as may be necessary. I see no reason why, if the Security Council moves relatively quickly, it should not be possible to start some criminal trials before the end of this year. There is one very obvious candidate for appointment as special prosecutor-- none other than Professor M. Cherif Bassiouni, a man of very great experience who has been consulted on many occasions by

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Governments across the world in relation to war crimes. The sooner he can be appointed and his office established, the better. As the Secretary-General has pointed out, all this will cost money. Professor Bassiouni's own estimate is £50 million for a two-year period. I am delighted to say that, as one would expect, the Government of Canada have taken a very responsible and encouraging initiative. They have offered money, to be paid into a trust account for this purpose as soon as such an account can be established, and staff to assist the special prosecutor. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House might suggest to our right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary that Great Britain should follow Canada's admirable lead, which I know that other countries are interested in following. Resources will be required, but this action is necessary. The world is appalled at the things we have seen on our television screens, heard about on our radios, and read about in our newspapers. The world is entitled to say that this is not right. We cannot allow it to happen without doing everything possible to ensure that the criminals are brought to justice. If the United Kingdom and other countries are able to take action in respect of unspeakable crimes in Nazi-occupied Germany, surely we can do similarly in respect of what happened in Yugoslavia not 50 years or even 15 months ago but in the very recent past.

Two deficiencies need to be dealt with. War crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity are outlawed by successive Geneva conventions. The world has said on many occasions that such behaviour is outside the realm of what can be accepted by a civilised world community. The trouble about the Geneva conventions is that they do not provide the means by which these activities can be made justiciable. A tribunal would give effect to what is contained in the Geneva conventions, which would provide a means by which the leaders responsible for ordering genocide, mass rape and other crimes could be held to account on this earth instead of only at the eternal gates to the celestial world to which we must all aspire in due course. Another aspect which needs careful attention is the administration of the ordinary natural criminal law which existed in Yugoslavia and which exists in this or any country which abides by ordinary human standards. Although murder, rape, torture and grievous bodily harm--crimes that we all readily recognise--could be tried by the domestic courts of Yugoslavia or any surviving parts of Yugoslavia, we must confess that people inside and outside Yugoslavia would have rather limited confidence in the quality of justice administered by them.

I pay tribute to the reporting which has appeared day after day in The Independent , which has brought many of these matters to this country's attention. I have no doubt that there have also been such articles in foreign newspapers, but The Independent has a remarkable record of bringing home to us exactly what is happening. An article yesterday referred to the so-called war crimes tribunals in Bosnia, which have been held recently. Its author was the east European editor, Mr. Barber. Anyone reading the article will know that, if what he reported is indeed what is happening, the quality of criminal justice being administered by those courts does not inspire much confidence.

We need an international tribunal instead of lynching courts--as they would be regarded in the constituent parts of Yugoslavia--because such a tribunal would administer

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a quality of justice which would inspire more widespread support throughout the world than the domestic tribunals as currently constituted. There is no reason why an ad hoc tribunal should not administer the ordinary criminal law of Yugoslavia. In a report to which I referred before Christmas, Ambassador Correll showed that there was nothing deficient about the criminal law in Yugoslavia before that country collapsed, so it would not be a question of introducing new crimes which were unknown when the atrocities were committed. The tribunal would administer the criminal law which was well understood by each and every one of the people who may have been responsible for murder, rape, grievous bodily harm or torture. The immediate need in Yugoslavia is very clear. The urgency is obvious. The necessary will exists in the Security Council. There is no reason why we should not make progress very quickly this early summer to establish a tribunal capable of doing the job as we would wish. If a chief judge and, above all, a special prosecutor could be appointed quickly, the work could get under way. There is no need for any delay, although there may be practical problems.

The fact that there may be problems highlights one of the deficiencies of the present international legal system--the absence of permanent machinery to deal with breaches of the Geneva conventions on genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity and prisoners of war. The conventions have the support of the world community with very few exceptions, but we must have the machinery to make these matters justiciable and enforceable in an international court under the authority of the Security Council.

As soon as we have established a tribunal for Yugoslavia, I hope that it will be possible for the Security Council to establish a necessary permanent court not only to deal with what I call the Geneva convention heads of international crime--important though that matter is--but to meet some of the deficiencies in the administration of criminal justice in our own regions and between countries in Europe. I am thinking of extradition, the production of witnesses, and so on--transnational matters which lead to difficulties in securing the effective administration of a criminal justice system. As a supplement to, or additional feature of, our range of courts for dealing with these criminal matters, an international court should be established for the world under the Security Council.

I know that the expansion of institutions within the European Community is not a popular cause to espouse, not least in the House, but one of the biggest deficiencies in EC institutions is the absence of any effective supranational criminal court mechanism for dealing with crimes which cross frontiers. I cite the most obvious example. Although it is hateful to people like me, who have been brought up in the British court system, to admit that the quality of justice administered in our courts is not the highest, the reputation of our criminal courts in dealing with IRA terrorists has taken a tremendous knock. We know how difficult it is now to secure the extradition of persons wanted for serious crimes and who are alleged to be members of the IRA and engaged in IRA activities.

I suspect that it would be easier to secure extradition from the Republic of Ireland to an international court rather than to an exclusively British court. An

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international court on which an Irish judge was sitting would inspire confidence that it was not just another British court. There would be British prosecutors bringing evidence established by the British police, but people would nevertheless be tried under rules which made it that much easier for those wanted in connection with serious crime to be brought before a criminal court. It would be easier for people to be tried properly, and, if necessary, punished properly.

I welcome the opportunity to raise these important issues again. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House knows me well enough to understand that he may not have heard from me for the last time on these subjects, but it is time to make progress not only on Yugoslavia but on the wider issue of world jurisdiction.

6.57 pm

Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South) : I shall not respond at length to the hon. Member for Corby (Mr. Powell) but I shall make two frivolous remarks and then move on to a third and more serious issue.

The hon. Gentleman said that he had not received replies to two letters, one to the Prime Minister and one to the Foreign Secretary. He will be reassured that, at this very moment, civil servants in Downing street and in the Foreign Office are probably looking through their files to ensure that he gets a reply at least by tomorrow morning if not before.

The hon. Gentleman paid tribute to The Independent, which he claims--I have no reason to disbelieve him--is highlighting the situation in the former Yugoslavia. He will need the Easter recess to write the column that will be offered to him as a result of the praise that he lavished on that newspaper.

I now come to my substantive points. I do not believe that people have expressed sufficient revulsion against the horrors that we see day in and day out in the former Yugoslavia, especially in Bosnia. If only one tenth of the stories that we hear are true, that still represents a crime against humanity. The hon. Member for Corby referred to a thousand cases having been documented. I am not sure what kind of cases they are, but the human indignity and the violence against human beings highlighted in just those few cases show the depths to which humanity has stooped, especially in Bosnia. I share the hon. Gentleman's desire to do something, and to bring people to justice if that is at all possible, but I believe that, when history comes to be written, western Europe, especially the European Community, will be condemned for what has happened in the former Yugoslavia. There is no doubt in my mind that the dash to recognise the new republics, largely at the behest of Germany, helped to precipitate the horrendous situation that we now witness. I must voice the fears that some of my Muslim constituents have expressed to me--that the Muslims in Bosnia have been let down by this country and by the European Community as a whole. They often express to me the opinion--I hope that it is not well founded--that, if those people were Christians rather than Muslims, the western world would not have stood by and let the atrocities continue on their present scale. I hope that my constituents are not right about that, but I strongly suspect

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that, if Christians rather than Muslims were being massacred, the west would not have stood by for so long and let that level of outrage continue.

I should now like to make four or five quick points, if I may, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It was mentioned at Prime Minister's question time today that we have nearly reached the anniversary of the general election--I can see a smile on the face of the hon. Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess). Most of us will recall that, this time last year, we were girding our loins for the last week of the general election campaign. I was out on the streets and then waiting to settle down to watch the "Nine O'Clock News", with the Prime Minister on his soap box. Twelve months later, I feel, as do an increasing number of my constituents, that the Tory party election campaign has been shown to be a complete sham and a bundle of lies. My constituents certainly feel that they have been cynically betrayed by the promises that the Government made in April last year and the way in which those promises have been thrown away.

I have a great deal of respect for the Leader of the House, but he was one of the Cabinet Ministers who went round during the campaign condemning the Labour party for its policy on national insurance contributions ; yet a few weeks ago, the right hon. Gentleman, still a member of a Conservative Cabinet, happily trooped through the Lobby to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer's increase in national insurance contributions.

Twelve months ago, Ministers were saying that the green shoots of economic growth and increasing activity were well rooted and would bear fruit over the following year. But I must tell the Leader of the House that the past 12 months have been relatively fallow in terms of seeing the shoots of economic growth take off.

Among my constituents, there is a feeling that the Government won the election last year on the basis of a lie. During that campaign, and in the 12 months since, the Government have done a great deal to increase ordinary people's cynicism about politicians in general and Tory politicians in particular. It is a great misfortune that we cannot turn the clock back, because if we could confront the British people with the promises that the Government made last year compared with the outcome of events over the past 12 months, that would show that the Tory party, especially the present-day Tory party, is prepared to stoop to any level, tell any lie and repeat any calumny in order to keep its grasping fists on the levers of power in this country.

I should like to give three or four specific examples of Government decisions over the past 12 months that have had a serious adverse effect on my constituents. It goes without saying that the Budget decision to levy VAT on domestic heating will have a dramatic penal effect on many low-paid families in my constituency. It makes no difference how social security benefits may be uprated ; many low-paid families will still have to pay the full increase arising from VAT.

I should like the Leader of the House to tell me and my constituents whether, if in the winter of 1994-95 they have to choose between leaving the domestic heating on or switching it off because they cannot afford the increased prices, they should switch it off and be cold. I should like at least one Cabinet Minister to tell me the answer so that I can pass it on to my constituents. I know that the Leader

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