House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Apr 1993

Dr. Cunningham : I am sure that at least that decision and ruling will have majority support in the Committee this afternoon, Mr. Morris, even if others which you have given have not. It is important that we have an opportunity to discuss the events of the past hour. It is clear that the Government announced their decision on new clause 75 with little time for you, let alone the rest of the Committee, to reflect on the significance of that in respect of your provisional ruling of 30 March.

The Opposition have never accepted that amendment No. 27 and new clause 75 were alternate--that one vote and one decision on one of those issues replaced or obviated the necessity for a Division in the Committee on the other. We have always challenged that position, and we continue to hold that view.

Other than the adjournment of these proceedings to enable discussions behind the Chair to take place, the motion now before the Committee is the best way to proceed. Hon. Members in all parts of the Committee, not excluding the Government, should have a chance to assess the impact of your new decision, Mr. Morris. The reality

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is, as many hon. Members have made clear, that there is majority support in the Committee for a Division on amendment No. 27. I recognise that amendment No. 27 has not been formally moved, but it was among a group of amendments that were discussed, it is in order, it stands in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and I maintain, as I said on a point of order, that the decision to disallow a vote on amendment No. 27 has no precedent. You have not challenged that argument, Mr. Morris, and I repeat it now. Even as events have been unfolding in the Chamber, Ministers have been briefing the press to the effect that the Government are willing to accept new clause 75 because they will ignore the outcome of a vote on that issue. It is extraordinary that even while this discussion and disagreement is taking place--

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones) : The hon. Gentleman has made a serious charge. Perhapshe will name those Ministers.

Dr. Cunningham : Yes, I will in due course, Mr. Morris but not for the moment, thank you very much. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman is one of them.

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Mr. Garel-Jones : The right hon. Gentleman has made a very serious charge. Perhaps he will name those Ministers. If not, perhaps he will withdraw his remark.

Dr. Cunningham : No, I have no intention of withdrawing my remarks-- none at all. The right hon. Gentleman knows what has been the Government's briefing, which has been going on at exactly the time as we have been discussing these issues in the Chamber. I stand by what I said. I have no intention of withdrawing my remarks.

It is obvious that your ruling today, Mr. Morris, which will deny the Committee an opportunity to vote on amendment No. 27, will allow a discredited Government to escape the consequences of a potential defeat in the House of Commons and to ignore the will of the Chamber on Divisions on other issues before the Committee--and I do not withdraw my remarks but stand by them absolutely.

That will frustrate the will of Parliament by avoiding a vote on amendment No. 27 and the outcome of a potential defeat on new clause 75. As I said several times this afternoon, those circumstances are without precedent. I made the point and repeat it now, that it is our intention to press for the substance of amendment No. 27 to be brought before the House on Report. It would be outrageous if, following a review of your decision, Mr. Morris, or subsequently, Parliament were denied an opportunity to express a view.

On this occasion--this is not always true--I share absolutely the view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). I am delighted to be able to say that.

Mr. Skinner : I think that I had better write that down.

Dr. Cunningham : But I do not want to ruin my hon. Friend's reputation.

People throughout the country will be astonished that, after all the arguments on the importance of the social

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chapter issue for the public, the House of Commons will not have an opportunity to record its view. Because the public will feel that they and their representatives have been cheated in being prevented from expressing their view, the whole standing of our proceedings in this place will be brought into disrepute. The public will really come to believe the argument that is all too often expressed these days : that the House of Commons has simply become a rubber stamp for any decision that the Government want to railroad through the Chamber.

That is an onerous charge to make, and I do not make it lightly. The Chair should reflect carefully on the consequences of public disillusionment about a ruling of such significance after so many hours of debate and discussion, on a subject of such importance.

Mr. Michael Spicer (Worcestershire, South) : I have been listening to the right hon. Gentleman with great interest. Why is it that members of the Labour Front Bench have left is so late to make a public fuss about amendment No. 27? They knew before Easter which way the decision was likely to go--the Chairman of Ways and Means had already made his announcement. He might have had time to reflect and reached a different decision, had there not been some rather quiet getting behind the pillars by members of Labour's Front Bench, who came forward with an alternative amendment to provide some kind of excuse for not taking amendment No. 27. Why has Labour come out in this way at the last moment?

Dr. Cunningham : I regard the hon. Gentleman's intervention as pure garbage and I am sorry that I gave way to him. For the record, you, Mr. Morris, made your provisional ruling on 30 March--a few days before the House rose for the Easter recess. You properly and generously offered to listen to my representations about your ruling. On reflection, I decided that I should establish precedent and examine parliamentary records during the Easter recess and then see you, Mr. Morris. I wrote seeking a meeting with you before the House resumed earlier this week.

You had an opportunity to listen to my representations only a little while ago and made your definitive ruling only today. So that puts all the nonsense in the hon. Gentleman's intervention into perspective. There is no question of our making an argument late in the day about the significance of amendment No. 27.

I spoke in the debate on amendment No. 27 on behalf of my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition, the shadow Cabinet and myself. I said then, and have repeated many times since, that we expected the Committee to divide on that amendment. I repeated those arguments on 30 March and again today. To suggest that we suddenly decided, at the last moment, to make a fuss about amendment No. 27 is complete and absolute garbage.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North) : If, as it appears, the Committee will be able to make few decisions on issues of substance in this major constitutional issue and if the public take the view that legislation has been railroaded through the House of Commons without proper scrutiny and the House being allowed to do what it should, is there not a case for the other place examining

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the issues in more detail and taking a more radical view than it might otherwise do--as the only bulwark of democracy in this country?

Dr. Cunningham : I have never regarded the other place as a bulwark of democracy, so it is difficult to accept the hon. Gentleman's argument. The overwhelming majority of our fellow citizens rightly regard this Chamber as the bulwark of democracy--and it is in this Chamber that the critical decisions must be taken. In these circumstances, it is the duty of the Chair and of advisers to the Chair to find an opportunity for the House of Commons to record a view on amendment No. 27. If that cannot be done in Committee, it should certainly be done on Report. I will not resile from that view and those arguments.

Mr. Richard Shepherd : The Chair's decision is of enormous constitutional importance. We will commence consideration of the Finance Bill in Committee on Monday week. If the Chair so chose, it need not accept votes on major issues of public policy and expenditure raised by members of the Labour Front Bench in Committee. The principle that has just been announced is of fundamental importance.

Dr. Cunningham : I wholly agree with that intervention. I repeat that the Chair is setting a dangerous precedent, when amendments regarded as in order, selected for debate and debated at length are not selected for a Division, against the majority views of the Committee.

Mr. Cash : Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that on 30 March 1993, the Chairman of Ways and Means stated :

"Right hon. and hon. Members will see that I have selected for debate new clause 75 on transferred powers (commencement). As a corollary, I do not propose to select amendment No. 27 for debate or for separate Division."-- [ Official Report, 30 March 1993 ; Vol. 222, c. 161.]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as there was a so-called swap by way of corollary, it is at the heart of the question of the distinction-- made by the right hon. Gentleman--between the content of amendment No. 27 and the content of new clause 75, which deals with the agreement of a future motion? Amendment No. 27 deals with the immediate question whether or not the social protocol should be excluded. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree?

Dr. Cunningham : We have always made it clear, and I am happy to do so again in response to the hon. Gentleman, that we have never accepted that amendment No. 27 and new clause 75 presented an either/or situation. We did not accept the argument that one could be exchanged for the other. The amendments have different impacts on the legislation. We had different reasons for tabling them and they provide quite separate opportunities for the Committee to express a view on different aspects of the legislation. That is why we could not accept your provisional ruling, Mr. Morris, of 30 March that, by agreeing to have a vote on new clause 75, we were accepting that there would be no Division on amendment No. 27.

Sir Ivan Lawrence (Burton) : I accept that the right hon. Gentleman is expressing the attitude of the Opposition. However, the Chair has decided that new clause 75 should be an alternative because of the use of the word "corollary". If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that that is a misunderstanding of his intention, would he consider

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withdrawing new clause 75? If that happened, it could no longer be said that the acceptance of that new clause stops consideration of and, one hopes, a vote on amendment No. 27. If the right hon. Gentleman is serious in his opposition to this matter, as I assume he is, perhaps he will seriously consider asking his colleagues to withdraw new clause 75. If that were done, the Chair would be placed in the position of accepting a vote on amendment No. 27.

Sir Teddy Taylor : Think about it.

Dr. Cunningham : In response to that sedentary intervention and to the legitimate intervention of the hon. and learned Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence), I have thought about it, but I dismissed it. It was in order to consider all these matters that I did not seek to discuss the position with you, Mr. Morris, immediately after your ruling on 30 March.

These are important matters, and we wanted time to reflect on their consequences and check the precedents. As I have said several times, I concluded that we were always right to argue that the two amendments were not alternatives, but that the Committee was perfectly entitled to vote on both of them. They are quite different in nature and intent and I saw no reason to accept the argument that we could have one or the other but not both. There is no precedent for that argument and no procedural argument in favour of that proposition. I did not feel obliged to accept it and I do not accept it now.

It has been to the benefit of the Committee, and I hope to your benefit, Mr. Morris, to allow this motion to be debated, not least because it gives another chance for reflection--what in old-fashioned jargon used to be called a cooling-off period--in which we can assess the issues. It would be remiss of me not to repeat that your ruling is seriously challenged by the Leader of the Opposition, the shadow Cabinet and the Opposition. It is not legitimate or fair to the Committee or to our constituents to deny a vote on amendment No. 27. I emphasise again that in discussions with you, Mr. Morris, and subsequently with Madam Speaker on Report, we shall continue to explore the possibility of a legitimate opportunity for the Committee to express a view on this issue.

Mr. Quentin Davies (Stamford and Spalding) : On a point of order, Mr. Morris. At the beginning of his speech, the right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) undertook to name the Ministers whom he alleged had been briefing the press outside. He has noticeably failed to do so. Would it be in order for the right hon. Gentleman to speak again to fulfil that pledge and demonstrate the seriousness of what he was trying to say?

The Chairman : That is not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. Garel-Jones : The right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) made three points and I shall seek to deal with them. He advanced the proposition, which may or may not be the case, that the majority of members of the Committee wished to have a Division on amendment No. 27. In response to that, Mr. Morris, you said that it is not always the Chair's duty to respond to the majority. Whether there is or is not a majority, it is extraordinary for the Opposition to propose that a majority should decide whether there should be a vote. [Interruption.] If I may say so, minorities who often seek the protection of the Chair

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would find the use of a Government majority to thwart their opportunity to express their opinion extremely inconvenient. 5.15 pm

Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman said that the Government were seeking to escape a vote on the social chapter. The opposite is the case, because by accepting new clause 75 we are allowing the Committee an opportunity fully to debate the social chapter. Thirdly, the right hon. Gentleman made a series of allegations about Ministers. He has not substantiated those, nor will he be able to do so.

Dr. Cunningham : Downing street is giving a briefing on the view of Ministers. If the right hon. Gentleman is not one of the Ministers who holds the view that I have expressed, he should come clean and tell us on which Ministers' behalf Downing street is giving that briefing.

Mr. Garel-Jones : It may come as a surprise to the right hon. Gentleman when I tell him that I am perfectly well aware of the briefing that is emanating from Downing street and elsewhere. It is not what the right hon. Gentleman has alleged.

Mr. Salmond : I am strongly in favour of the motion to report progress. My first reason for that support is for your benefit, Mr. Morris, in your difficult job of chairing the Committee. That was mentioned in a point of order, and it is by far the most important reason. I fully accept that you found out about the Government's attitude to new clause 75 some 15 minutes before you came to the Chamber to rule on the matter. That was clearly the most important event this afternoon. Almost casually, in the middle of business questions, the Leader of the House obser people to talk up the importance of new clause 75 and describe it as a time bomb ticking away under the Government. As soon as the Leader of the House made his observation, it was clear that the Government regarded new clause 75, irrespective of briefings being given by Downing street, as much less a time bomb and more a damp squib. That must fundamentally change your observations about the relative merits of amendment No. 27 and new clause 75.

I make it clear that in my point of order I did not in any way doubt the fact that you, Mr. Morris, had no prior knowledge of the Government's announcement. On the contrary, I was reinforcing the point, because you were in the same position as other hon. Members and had no knowledge of the Government's apparent change of tack on new clause 75. It is inconceivable that you did not have the time that should have been allowed to make a decision of this magnitude. That is the fundamental reason for reporting progress. We must have time for proper consideration of the relative merits under the new circumstances of amendment No. 27 and new clause 75.

The hon. Member for Copeland spoke about a cooling-off period. Many people would benefit from reconsideration. People outside observing events in the Chamber today and in the past few months may wonder whether this is the place for matters such as Maastricht and the social chapter to be ultimately decided. I do not think that there has been anything so edifying about our

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proceedings this afternoon that it would suggest to the wider public that this Chamber is capable of making--or will even be allowed to make--decisions on issues of such fundamental constitutional importance as the concept of the social chapter.

I hope that, in the time for reflection that the motion to report progress will allow, those on the Labour Benches will look at the question of a referendum on that vital issue, a decision on which will be coming up next week, and at the amendments tabled today to the clauses in a referendum. They would allow for a vote in that referendum on the social chapter and allow the public to make a decision on the matters that will so manifestly not be allowed to be decided, or be capable of being decided, in this place.

Sir Teddy Taylor : I am grateful that the Opposition have tabled the motion in this way, without making any criticism of you, Mr. Morris. As you have kindly referred to the letter that I sent you earlier this month, I should like to read out the last paragraph, which says :

"Could I also take the further opportunity of saying in all sincerity as someone who has been around the Euro debates for a long time, that many of us consider you have handled these rather difficult and touchy debates with great courtesy, efficiency and consistency in such a way that no one has a feeling of unfairness." I meant that sincerely, simply because, although I say nasty things about people, I appreciate that you have performed your role, Mr. Morris, with the courtesy and fairness that is appropriate to the Chairman of Ways and Means.

I support the motion for three reasons. First, things have changed dramatically in the recent past. The statement by the Leader of the House, which came only a few minutes before your statement, Mr. Morris, and no doubt after it was written and then typed, has changed the situation dramatically. They might even be aware of that in Harrow, if they were prepared to listen. The Leader of the House said that the Government, who we understand have been phoning up people in America to ask them whether they would be voting against new clause 75, will now support it. That is a wholly new situation.

You have fairly said, Mr. Morris, that the intention of the Labour party in amendment No. 27 was the same as the intention of the Labour party in new clause 75. The difference is that we shall not have a vote on anything relating to the social chapter before the Queen has to sign Royal Assent. Therefore, the situation has changed dramatically. If we do not have a vote on amendment No. 27, there will be no opportunity for Members of Parliament to express their view on anything relating to the social chapter before the Bill becomes law. That justifies a period of reflection by you, Mr. Morris, on the judgments that you have arrived at, I am sure fairly and reasonably.

The second argument that I should like hon. Members to consider is whether there might be a case for a vote on amendment No. 27 in view of the astonishing statement made by the Foreign Secretary--the second statement on the Government's attitude to amendment No. 27. Hon. Members will appreciate that we had had a statement from the Minister of State which was made with the full

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authority of legal advice of the Foreign Office, but that the second statement said that that was all wrong and had to be reconsidered.

The astonishing thing was not that the Minister of State was wrong--we have become accustomed to that in these debates--but what happened after that statement. The Foreign Secretary then said that, even if we voted out the protocol from British law, he would still sign the treaty with the protocol in it and, to that extent, Britain would be obliged, under the terms of the treaty of Rome, to pay its share--one twelfth--of the costs of the agreement of the 11 on the social chapter. That is unusual, because the principle involved is whether it is a Community obligation.

Under the treaty of Rome, if an item of spending is a Community obligation, then Britain is obliged to pay, but if it is not a treaty obligation, there is no obligation to pay. In view of the strange and astonishing statement made by the Foreign Secretary, even if we vote against the proposal, it will still happen, and our constituents' money will be paid over. The issue has to be considered carefully by someone else. The only someone else is a court of law, which should have the opportunity to say whether it is right that, even if we remove that section from British law, we shall still have to pay the money.

I have a third argument, which I hope that the Committee will consider. It is a privilege to have hon. Members present to listen to the debate on Maastricht, because the great tragedy has been the low attendance in the debates. I am sure it is not because hon. Members are lazy--I know that they are all hard-working, decent, honourable Members, and that includes my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes). However, they do not want to listen to the arguments on Maastricht because, while they know what great damage it will do, they are not sure what they can do about it.

Those hon. Members should appreciate that amendment No. 27 is not about the social chapter, as I am sure that they have been led by the Foreign Office and others to believe. It is about whether their constituents, including those from Harrow, will have to pay over cash to the EEC for the social chapter of the 11 other member states. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East thinks that it is a good idea to pay over money to Brussels, irrespective of the reason, but whether we want to or not, the point is that we should decide. The crucial issue is the old one of no taxation without representation.

Why on earth should my constituents or those of any other hon. Member be obliged to pay over money to Brussels for someone else's social chapter without their Members of Parliament having the right to decide yes or no? That is the issue over amendment No. 27. Some people would think that we should pay over the money and others that we should not. Therefore, I hope that it will be possible, over the weekend, before we return to the debate on Monday, for you and your officers, Mr. Morris, to think carefully about whether it is right and proper to ask taxpayers to pay money without giving the House of Commons the opportunity to say yes or no.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton : Does my hon. Friend remember the perceptive remarks, made after the statement by the Secretary of State, of the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston)? He said that, where there is a political will, there is a legal way.

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Are we not facing a situation in which the Government are determined to get this through come hell or high water, whether or not it is democratic?

Sir Teddy Taylor : I know that my hon. Friend has more experience of the workings of the House, as a Chairman of Committees, than I do. I am sure that there is a great deal in what he says but, if we start talking about those issues, we shall get away from the basic, simple issue that we are meant to be discussing. My hon. Friend has spoken with great sincerity on something that is important and right. However, let us concentrate on the simple and basic issue of whether it is right for people who have fought hard to come to the House of Commons and become Members of Parliament, who have done their best to serve their constituents, to sit back and allow taxation to be paid over without having the opportunity to express their view. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) hit the nail on the head, as he so often does. He said that, if we allow this huge precedent to go through, other taxation issues, on which Members of Parliament will not be allowed to express their view, will be allowed to go through.

Mr. Cash : Does my hon. Friend agree that the important point that he is making about taxation and our duties to our constituents goes to the heart of the treaty ? Under the proposals of stage 2, not even to mention stage 3, the whole question of the basis on which our constituents will have their monetary affairs decided, public expenditure, the exchange rate mechanism, and other policies, are intimately bound up with the question of money. It is the prerogative of the House of Commons to decide those issues. That will be affected not only by the provisions that I have referred to, but by the provision to which my hon. Friend referred, in relation to the social chapter.

Sir Teddy Taylor : My hon. Friend is right to make that important and huge point about the destruction of democracy, which those who follow these debates know is happening. However, as I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), there is no point in debating such great issues when what we are deciding on this motion is a simple issue.

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Sir Ivan Lawrence (Burton) : As a parliamentarian of great experience, does my hon. Friend agree that the spending of money will not be addressed by their Lordships when they consider the matter in the other place? Therefore, if we are deprived of an opportunity to vote on this money matter, there will be no vote on it in Parliament. That is thoroughly undesirable and that is why we in this House have been given the power to consider monetary matters and the other place has not. With that power goes the right to vote on the issue.

Sir Teddy Taylor : As usual, my hon. and learned Friend is right. That was to be my fifth point, although I may not have expressed it so fairly and clearly. If we do not vote on the amendment on the control of cash, the other place will not be able to.

The fourth point that I was about to make concerned the question of precedent. I hope that it will be possible to reflect during the weekend. I have been searching for precedents but I can find only two. One was on 23 March

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1964 and the other was on 11 June 1968. Both related to Back-Bench amendments and neither was in relation to an official Opposition amendment or announced, as in this case, weeks after the debate took place.

Finally, I appeal to the Liberal Democrats. The sad thing is that, as those who have fears about proportional representation know, at present the Liberal Democrats basically decide everything. I think that they know that this particular motion will not be decided by those who share my views, by the Opposition or by the Scottish Nationalists who attend these debates so regularly and who contribute in such a fair and objective way ; it will be decided by the Liberal Democrats.

The Liberal Democrats have a simple decision to make. Is it right and proper that we should reflect over the weekend about whether it is a good or bad thing to vote on amendment No. 27? That is all we ask. We are not seeking to overturn the Government. We are in no way seeking to cast any reflection on the Chairman of Ways and Means, for whom I have a greater regard than any previous Chairman because of what he has done throughout this long Committee. If anyone doubts that, they should have been here to see how he has gone out of his way to protect minorities.

We are not trying to overturn the Government or the treaty. [Interruption.] I am. Make no mistake about it. I shall do everything in my power to stop the treaty being ratified because it is an affront to destroy people's democracy and to take rights from them without giving the people an opportunity to have their say. However, that is the third great argument, and I cannot get into that. The crucial thing is to appreciate that we are considering something simple and basic. The only issue is whether the Chairman, with the help of his advisers and in the light of a new situation which arose only 15 minutes before he rose to speak, should have the opportunity to reflect on whether we should vote on amendment No. 27. That is all we are asking for.

The Liberal Democrats have a great tradition of fighting for people's rights. History shows how the Liberal Democrats represented free trade and how, despite all the difficulties facing them, they have gone out of their way to do what they think right in fighting for people's rights and for democracy. I hope that on this one occasion they will say that it is not a question of being for or against Maastricht, or for or against the Government, but a question of what is right and proper for a democratic House of Commons. It would be an affront to our constituents if we were to in any way permit taxation to be applied without a vote of the Members of the House of Commons. In view of the Government's astonishing decision to support new clause 75 instead of opposing it, it would be an affront not to reflect on that further. Therefore, I hope that, in the unique power and opportunity that they now have, the Liberal Democrats will vote to think over the matter during the weekend. Such a decision would not bring down the economy or the nation ; it just means thinking about something for a few days.

Sir Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber) rose

Mr. Skinner : The right hon. Gentleman is going to vote to beat the rail strike.

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Sir Russell Johnston : It is all a bit messy. I have never really participated in any debate quite like this before. We are debating a motion to report progress. Usually such a motion is about getting on with the business, but this is about not getting on with the business. The effect of agreeing to the motion will, presumably, be a short further delay in the Committee stage--and to beat the rail strike, as the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) rightly pointed out, but that is incidental.

As the House knows, the Liberal Democrats believe in getting the Bill through as expeditiously as possible. Usually, therefore, we would oppose a motion of this sort if we felt that it was being introduced to prevent that. We do not agree with those who have sought, by all means possible, to delay the Bill, and we also regret that the Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen, being declared supporters of Maastricht, have at no stage sought a reasonable, even a behind-the-Chair, agreement with the Government about rational progress in the timetable of the Bill. That would have been the right thing to do.

The motion has been moved because of amendment No. 27, the idea being, as expressed by the right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham), to allow time for reconsideration. That is odd in a way, too, because we are not supposed to debate your ruling, Mr. Morris, at all. Yet, in a way, we are, or at least we are running close to it. That is also odd.

According to the Attorney-General, amendment No. 27 would have no legal effect whatever and, therefore, it would not matter if it were agreed to. The right hon. Member for Copeland said that that was open to question. The higher metaphysics of the law will always produce something that is open to question. I am quite prepared to accept that what the Attorney-General says is true. I do not know. I have no means of arguing in any sensible way against it. However, it would nevertheless be a symbolic vote. There is no doubt about that--I think. But I am not even sure about that in a way. [Laughter.] Hon. Members laugh, but consider this--

Mr. Skinner : What does the right hon. Gentleman tell the electorate?

Sir Russell Johnston : Will the hon. Gentleman be quiet for a minute?

The Euro-sceptics on the Government Benches would vote for amendment No. 27 because they do not believe in it. Practically all of them being to the right of the Conservative party, they are against the social chapter. Therefore, many Conservatives, and perhaps--with all respect to the right hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor)--a critical number of Conservative Members would vote for the social chapter because they were against Maastricht and for no other reason.

Meanwhile, in the rest of the Conservative party, a number of Members who are in favour of the social chapter would, in these circumstances, vote against it. So hon. Members may laugh and say, "Ha ha, he cannot make up his mind," but I am just trying to point out to the Committee that none of this is simple and easy. To claim that in some way or other this vote produces a clear result and shows what hon. Members think is not true. Therefore, it is difficult.

Sir Ivan Lawrence : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

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Sir Russell Johnston : Yes, but, alas, I am not right hon. yet.

Sir Ivan Lawrence : I see that the hon. Gentleman is blushing. It is quite clear what the attitude of the Committee is to the mistake I made, so I wish the hon. Gentleman good fortune.

Is the hon. Gentleman, as the spokesman for the Liberal party, prepared to accept the expenditure of money by other countries without the House having the right to vote on that expenditure? If so, how does he equate that decision with the traditional view of the Liberal party about spending and the need for parliamentary approval?

Sir Russell Johnston : I do not deny that the issue is important, but it is not what we are talking about in this argument. We are talking about a large number of hon. Members who wish to express a view about whether Britain should accept the social chapter. I was simply pointing out that the trouble is that, because of the nature of the break-up of support in the Committee--unless we have a free vote--it will be very difficult to secure a result that genuinely reflects views. That is a big problem.

As for the basic issue and the business statement about new clause 75, I have not had a proper opportunity to think it over. It was described by some as the "Semtex amendment" that would explode everything ; it was said to be a very pertinent amendment. It was the replacement of amendment No. 27--there is no doubt about that ; that is how it was conceived--and now, suddenly, we can accept it ; it does not matter ; it is all right ; no problem. I find that very difficult to rationalise.

For once in my life I am prepared to agree with the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor)--even at great risk to my privy councillorship--that a pause for consideration is sensible in the circumstances.

You, Mr. Morris, have chaired the Committee in a magnificent and fair way. Nothing that I say in any way reflects on you.

Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South) : I trust that the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) will soon become a right hon. Member and that--having announced his aspirations in a delightful way--he has not sabotaged them with his final sentences.

As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence) rose to intervene, I heard some of my hon. Friends say, from a sedentary position, "Be kind to him, Ivan." They were willing him to vote on their side. He has clearly satisfied their demands and they will therefore support any recommendation that may be made in that regard. I was glad that the hon. Gentleman ended with a tribute to you, Mr. Morris, because I believe that anyone who is fair-minded and has watched the proceedings of the Committee can only come to the conclusion that you have performed an exceptionally difficult job extremely well.

There can have been few occasions during the post-war history of Parliament when minorities have had a better opportunity to voice their legitimate opinions. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East acknowledges that.

What troubles me is that in another guise--until the hon. Gentleman defused the situation with his speech--we came close to embarking upon a criticism of a ruling of the Chair. That is a very dangerous precedent to establish. The right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) talked about dangerous precedents ; if there is a dangerous

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precedent at issue this afternoon, it is that. The cornerstone of the House and the whole constitution of this country is the impartiality of the Chair. I believe, Mr. Morris, that you have upheld that extremely well since you acceded to the post of Chairman of Ways and Means. I hope that you will long continue to hold that office.

One expert in procedure, who contributed a particularly perceptive point of order this afternoon, is the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing). We do not always agree on political issues, but I yield to none in my admiration for him as an expert on procedure in the House. He made the important point--which has been taken up by others--that there will be a Report stage. On Report, certain things will obviously be debated ; it is up to Madam Speaker precisely what they will be.

5.45 pm

When the House first meets in any new Parliament, the first thing that it does is to elect a Speaker--someone elected by the House in whom the House, by that election, reposes its trust and confidence. It seems to me, Mr. Morris, that there should be no challenging of your ruling, which you have made with expert advice. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), I speak as a member of the panel of Chairmen. It is not easy to come to decisions on amendments, and there may well be an amendment about which there are passionate views, but which is just out of order ; or it may not be possible to select it or call it for voting. You have made your decision honourably and rightly, Mr. Morris, but there will be another opportunity to debate it. It would be far better if we proceeded with our discussions today.

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