House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Apr 1993

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Mr. Janner : Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Select Committee on Employment has asked the National Audit Office whether it can work out the true cost of unemployment, especially what it costs when a person is made unemployed, not merely as a result of tax not paid but in terms of the benefits that the person and his family will receive? Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to lean on the National Audit Office to provide that information, because I am sure that no one else in the United Kingdom is willing to do so?

Sir Peter Hordern : I will certainly pass the hon. and learned Gentleman's comments on to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Strictly speaking, it is more a matter for the Public Accounts Committee than for the Commission, but I will certainly pass on the hon. and learned Gentleman's views.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : Will the right hon. Gentleman answer specifically the question that he was asked about ministerial expenses and how they are defined in departmental accounts? Is he concerned about what has happened recently? Does he think that he should perhaps convene a meeting with the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General to see whether a way forward can be found whereby such expenses, when incurred, are clearly set out in Government accounts in a way that the public can understand?

Sir Peter Hordern : These are important and interesting matters and can be dealt with fully by the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, to which the hon. Gentleman has every access.

TRANSPORT

Rail Privatisation

10. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the progress of his plans to franchise the Great Western line.

Mr. MacGregor : Great Western Intercity is one of the seven service groups that I have asked British Rail to prepare for early franchising. I have asked BR to create a separate Great Western operating company so that potential franchisees can see how the services perform before making their bids.

Mr. Coombs : My right hon. Friend will be well aware that the InterCity 125 diesel locomotives have been in operation for 20 or more years and are coming naturally towards the end of their useful working life. Will he bear that fact in mind in assessing the length of the franchise that might be awarded in the Great Western region to ensure that there is a sufficient payback period for an operator to make the new capital investment which will be needed?

Mr. MacGregor : Yes, I am aware that in due course the diesel locomotives will have to be replaced. I make two points to my hon. Friend. First, the length of the franchise, which will be for the franchising director to establish, will reflect the commitment and investment that the potential franchisees are prepared to put in. In other words, if they are prepared to make a substantial investment in rolling stock, the franchisees will expect a longer franchise than

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would otherwise be the case. Secondly, my hon. Friend the Minister for Public Transport will come forward shortly with the responses to the consultation document on leasing of rolling stock. That is also relevant.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Creche Facilities

32. Mr. Flynn : To ask the right hon. Member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, pursuant to his oral answer to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mrs. Jackson) of 22 February, Official Report, column 678, what progress has been made in making creche facilities available for the children of hon. Members and of House of Commons staff.

34. Mr. Win Griffiths : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick- upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make a statement on progress on the provision of creche facilities in the House.

Mr. A. J. Beith (on behalf of the House of Commons Commission) : Since I last answered questions on the subject on 22 February, the Administration Committee has considered the possibility that the House might take up a small number of places in a projected joint venture nursery near Vincent square. The Committee turned down the proposal as inappropriate and has consulted the Commission on the need for a comprehensive survey of all possible users. That will now be taken ahead, with the Commission's full support.

Mr. Flynn : How can the Commission maintain that there is not room within these buildings for a creche when we have room for a shooting gallery and several rooms are used for wining and dining which is not parliamentary but entirely commercial and party political in character? Do we have to wait until the present crop of children who might now be in nursery school are attending university before a creche is provided? Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that there are special problems for the 2,000 staff in the building and especially for Members of Parliament as the peculiar demands of our jobs mean that many of our families are brought up for most of the year in a single-parent context?

Mr. Beith : The Commission is well aware of the problems and the proposals for dealing with them. That is why it intends to undertake the survey. The hon. Gentleman must address his views about the use of rooms in the building to the Accommodation and Works Committee. However, I am bound to say that the public authorities would probably not look kindly on the use of a basement now used as a shooting gallery for a children's creche.

Mr. Win Griffiths : Why is it taking so long for the creche facilities to be provided when so many Members have urged for several years that action be taken? It seems to us that once again obstacles and delay are being put in the way of the provision of facilities. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us a date by which he hopes to see the facilities provided?

Mr. Beith : I should like to see the facilities provided as soon as possible, but the hon. Gentleman should discuss

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with his hon. Friends who are members of the appropriate Committee the difficulties that they foresee in providing accommodation from the present parliamentary estate. They made the decision to which I referred, and they must be well aware of the difficulties.

Mr. Burns : May I ask my right hon. Friend fully to appreciate that although it may not be popular with some of our colleagues, the House of Commons must be brought into the 20th century? In the past two decades or so, many men and women who are younger and have young children have become Members of Parliament. It seems inappropriate that while the Government and other organisations encourage and foster the provision of creche facilities, this establishment seems remarkably reluctant to provide the facilities that it encourages the private sector and other sections of the community to provide.

Mr. Beith : The Commission has no reluctance on the matter so long as demand can be shown and satisfactory accommodation can be provided.

Mrs. Helen Jackson : Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the questions that I asked him in February and on the first sitting day in 1993 did not refer to surveys? The House is not asking for surveys--it is asking for action, and action this year. A creche facility is not specialised--it requires toilets and water, but it should not be impossible to find space within the various buildings of the Palace of Westminster which contain such facilities. May we have some action, please?

Mr. Beith : The joint venture, which the Administration Committee regarded as inappropriate, would have provided only six places, and would have done so at a relatively high cost. It was partly because of the inadequate number of places that the Commission felt it necessary to support a proper survey, to see how many people would use this facility.

Accommodation

33. Mr. Fabricant : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what provision has been made in 1993-94 for the building of further accommodation.

Mr. Beith : A total of £10.5 million has been made available in 1993-94 to cover the remaining works at No. 7 Millbank and to continue the design work on phase 2 of the new parliamentary building.

Mr. Fabricant : Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, as well as the need for offices, we need rooms for meetings and other larger ones? Is it not extraordinary that hon. Members on both sides of the House have to traipse like stones to the bowels of the Treasury to donate blood?

Mr. Beith : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's journey across the road is well worth while and in the public interest. It illustrates the problems that we have in providing for a wide range of facilities in this building, as well as ensuring that hon. Members and their staff are adequately accommodated. That is why the Commission authorised the accommodation at 7 Millbank and why we are proceeding with work on the new parliamentary building.

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Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : What has been the cost of the upkeep of this Palace, building and refurbishing offices, pampering the secretaries and providing ridiculous services, more of which--such as creches--have been suggested this afternoon? Why not have nannies and nurses as well? Will the right hon. Gentleman state the cost over the past 10 years of the appalling extravagances in which we expect the public not to indulge but which we have given to ourselves?

Madam Speaker : Order. That is a most interesting question, but one which requires notice.

Printing Costs

35. Mr. Steen : To ask the right hon. Member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what proportion of the expenditure of the Commission goes on printing for the House.

Mr. Beith : The estimates for 1993-94 include provision of £18.6 million for expenditure on printing and publications, most of which is incurred in the supply of parliamentary papers.

This represents some 18.5 per cent. of the total estimates for House of Commons administration and works services for the year.

Mr. Steen : Clearly, printing costs have gone through the roof. While we expect that other bodies should manage their affairs efficiently and run them more cheaply each year, why is it that each year we run our own more expensively? Why do we allow this bureaucracy to go on and on increasing? As it costs £200 or more for each oral question to be answered, including this one, why should there not be a limit to the amount that hon. Members can spend each year on questions? While the right hon. Gentleman is looking at questions, will he also look at the bureaucracy of the House and the Serjeant at Arms Department?

Mr. Beith : Any limit on the ability of hon. Members to ask questions would be very controversial and a matter for the Procedure Committee and not for the Commission, which provides the services necessary for the House to do its job. The House printing requirements are unusual in that there is a large amount of overnight printing of Hansard and other parliamentary papers. Discussions are taking place now as to how to carry out that work most efficiently. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will find that that will lead to a considerable containment of the costs.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Would the right hon. Gentleman like to suggest, both to the Government and to his fellow Members, that one easy way of cutting down on the amount of paper that we produce would be to return to the habit of Ministers taking responsibility for their own questions and their appearance in the Official Report instead of occasionally allowing vast, pointless and frequently opaque replies to be printed in Hansard?

Mr. Beith : I hope that the hon. Lady's question will be noted on the Front Bench, as Ministers alone can act on it.

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TRANSPORT

Midland Line (Electrification)

11. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has had any recent discussions with representatives of local authorities and others regarding the midland line electrification.

Mr. Freeman : Yes. I attended a meeting of the Association of County Councils in Nottingham on 26 March, when the possible electrification of the midland main line was discussed.

Mr. Skinner : What is the Minister going to do about it? Now that he has met the local authorities will he put them in the lucky bag with the west coasst line and the Kent line? The Government are trying to kid local authorities into believing that they are getting something before the county elections, but when those elections are over the net result will be that the midland line electrification will fall. Is the Minister aware that the Government have spent too much time attacking the railway unions, which are fighting for the livelihoods and jobs of their members, when the Government should be concentrating on improving the rolling stock and electrification up and down Britain?

Mr. Freeman : Every day of the rail strike, which the hon. Gentleman supports, means £10 million less investment in British Rail.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Oral Questions

36. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement about the operation of the system of handing in oral questions at the Table Office.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton) : Since the beginning of the 1990-91 Session, hon. Members may table, in person, a maximum of two questions to each Minister : one in their own name, and one for another hon. Member. Questions are handed in at the Table Office between 10 am and 5 pm a fortnight before the date on which they are to be answered.

Mrs. Gorman : I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. I am aware, as he is, that the previous system was often abused by Members turning out multiple versions of their questions and handing them in through a variety of sources. Is my right hon. Friend aware, however, that Back Benchers are often away from the House in their constituencies, or on Select Committee on other business, perhaps at short notice, and find it extremely difficult to be in the House two weeks in advance to hand in their question? As an alternative to the present system, may I suggest that so long as Members write out their question by hand and sign it as the original copy, they should be allowed to post it if they have a legitimate reason for being unable to be in the House to hand it in as it is not always possible to find a colleague to do so in one's place?

Mr. Newton : As you, Madam Speaker, will be aware, alongside other changes made for the 1990-91 Session mentioned by my hon. Friend, the time available for handing in oral questions was, if I remember correctly,

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extended from 4 pm to 5 pm. I am prepared to consider any representations, and my hon. Friend might like to make suggestions to the Procedure Committee. If it could be convincingly shown that sufficient difficulties were being caused to justify changes, that might be considered. We must bear in mind the need to ensure that those responsible for preparing the Order Paper and determining the order of questions also have adequate time to do their work.

Standing Committee on Regional Affairs

37. Mr. Pickthall : To ask the Lord President of the Council what representations he has received on the subject of the Standing Committee on Regional Affairs.

38. Mr. Mudie : To ask the Lord President of the Council what representations he has received proposing matters to be referred to the Standing Committee on Regional Affairs as provided by Standing Order No. 100.

Mr. Newton : I have received one letter about the Standing Committee on Regional Affairs and the matter has been raised occasionally at business questions.

Mr. Pickthall : As the Scots and the Welsh rightly have Select Committees and Grand Committees to discuss their affairs, is not unacceptable that the one Committee in which English regional affairs could and should be discussed has not met since 1978? Now that every English region is suffering from industrial decline and infrastructural and unemployment problems, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that every Member of the House who represents an English constituency would welcome the opportunity of speaking and participating in that Committee?

Mr. Newton : As the hon. Gentleman himself acknowledged, once the Committee had been set up--the Standing Order providing for that having been put in place in the mid-1970s--it rapidly fell into virtually total disuse and has met only twice since the 1975-76 Session, which suggests that no one has seen any great merit in its proceedings. As I have said on a number of occasions, I for one am not persuaded that it would be right to undertake meetings in the way the hon. Gentleman would wish. I have been trying to ensure proper opportunities for debate on the Floor of the House on matters such as tourism and on other subjects raised under this head.

Mr. Harris : Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that a number of Conservative Members would very much welcome an opportunity to pursue our regional interests in just such a Committee, especially Members who represent the south-west in view of the iniquitous water charges imposed by South West Water, to mention just one subject that we should like to examine in detail in such a Committee?

Mr. Newton : I note my hon. Friend's support for one particular aspect of this request and I hope that it was clear that my phrasing did not absolutely rule out consideration of this matter. However, I am certainly not at present persuaded of the case for it.

Mrs. Beckett : Will the Lord President reconsider that answer? He referred to the relatively small number of occasions on which the Committee was convened in the 1970s, but if he studies the record he will find that it was

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extremely well attended. Twenty, thirty and even sixty Members were in attendance to discuss issues of exactly the kind that the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) has mentioned. I think that there would be a strong welcome on both sides of the House for such a move.

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Mr. Newton : I admit that I have not researched the attendance at those meetings, but as membership of the Committee consists of all hon. Members with English constituencies, plus five others nominated by the Committee of Selection, the attendance figures that the right hon. Lady has given were rather low.

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