House of Commons Hansard Debates for 20 Apr 1993

Column 293

and how it is intended to work in future. So I should be grateful for answers to the questions that I have tried to frame to the Minister.

10.59 pm

Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : I rise only because of the Minister's failure to respond adequately to my intervention in his speech. He will recall that I asked him why we have had to wait, at a conservative estimate, three years for legislation equivalent to Great Britain legislation in 1973 and in 1990. Taking 1990 as the datum point, we have had to wait three years to have an Order in Council drafted.

The Minister gave purely generalised arguments. He said that it is sometimes an advantage to wait until the Great Britain legislation is in operation so that one can fine-tune the Northern Ireland legislation. He did not address the issue specifically with regard to the order. I ask him to tell us whether this order had been fine-tuned compared with the Great Britain legislation. I noted that when my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross) asked whether there were now any differences between the law in Northern Ireland and the law in Great Britain, the Minister shook his head. I hope that he will address that matter specifically.

Mr. Mates : I am ever the optimist. If that is the only reason why the hon. Gentleman rose, I shall help him. There was no need to follow Great Britain legislation, which was very restrictive and finely drawn, until we came to the next steps agency process. We are now enabling the next steps process, which has been going in the United Kingdom, to be introduced, because we have some candidates for it. So we need the same legislation.

Mr. Trimble rose--

Mr. Mates : I did not think that that was the only reason why the hon. Gentleman decided to speak.

Mr. Trimble : Do I take the Minister to mean that there has not been a three-year delay in producing the order and that the Government considered producing the order only when they decided to follow the next steps agency programme? That raises two questions. Why is the order so many years behind the Great Britain programme on the matter? Does that reflect any question of policy? Was there a decision not to follow Great Britain in terms of the next steps agencies? Was that policy then changed? Or is it merely a reflection of the general sloth that afflicts the Northern Ireland Office? There are now, I presume from what the Minister has said, candidates in Northern Ireland for the next steps agency process. In that case, I hope that the Minister will tell us precisely who those candidates are and what the Government's plans are. If the Government did not consider it necessary to have legislation until they had candidates for next steps agencies and were preparing bodies for next steps agencies, clearly those plans must exist now. It is only right that the Minister should tell us what they are.

From my intervention and from my brief contribution in the debate, you will understand, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we are most dissatisfied with the way in which the Order in Council procedure is used. It is not a satisfactory procedure. The Minister has given an explanation for the delay tonight. However, we could point to numerous other

Column 294

items of legislation in which there are significant delays. No adequate explanation is forthcoming. Delays are built into the system and it is utterly inadequate for proceedings here, as we have demonstrated this evening. I am glad that the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott) commented on that.

There are other faults in the system, such as its secretiveness. The Government have secret consultation procedures with certain interested bodies and keep others in the dark. We had an example of that only this week. Important legislative proposals were leaked in The Independent on Monday. It turns out that they have been a matter of consultation with other bodies for weeks. Yet no political party in Northern Ireland was consulted.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman heahe order.

Mr. Trimble : I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you considered that I was straying wide. I was merely referring to the legislative process, of which this is an example. The Order in Council procedure is an inadequate legislative process. Has the Minister read the report of the Hansard Society on legislation and its comments on this sort of Order in Council? Does the Northern Ireland Office intend to take those comments seriously?

11.4 pm

Dr. Joe Hendron (Belfast, West) : Normally, when one speaks on matters to do with financial provisions, one tends to do a bit of whining. I shall start by making a few positive remarks. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am conscious of what you said to the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott) about going a little wide of the mark, so I shall be as relevant to this debate as I can.

Remarks have been made recently by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) as the leader of the Official Unionist party. Until one understands, one might wonder about the relevance of that to this debate. I see a direct relevance between financial provisions and political progress. The people in Northern Ireland are crying out for peace and I hope that a political dialogue will start soon.

With regard to funding in Northern Ireland, I have studied this document. I must admit that it has nothing to do with appropriations. Perhaps the Minister could explain those matters which relate, for example, to the Department of Health and Social Services, the crucifixion of the royal group of hospitals in Belfast and the massive

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he must stick to the scope of the motion.

Dr. Hendron : I hope that this is relevant to the debate. I am referring directly to the document. I am aware of trading funds and other financial matters. I draw the attention of the Minister to one of the most deprived areas of Northern Ireland, indeed, in these islands--west Belfast. I am talking about the Falls and the Shankill. Catholic, Protestant, unionist or nationalist--one can call it what one likes. Could he explain how, in the order, the

Column 295

Departments are using funds to help young people who are being exploited daily by the Provisional IRA and the Ulster Defence Association? I may be straying wide of the mark, but I have almost finished. I ask the Minister to refer to those specific issues because they are important to my area. I accept that this is not the most suitable debate in which to raise such matters.

Mr. Mates : With the leave of the House, I shall respond briefly to hon. Members' comments.

I deal first with the comments of the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott). I could not have been clearer in what I said. I think he heard it the first time, and he heard it quieter and more slowly the second time. The fact that he still claims not to understand it is a little of what I might call poetic licence, so I will not pursue the matter.

I have answered the question of the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) about the reason why we are doing this. [Interruption.] Perhaps he will listen ; I listened to him. We already have seven next steps agencies. The hon. Gentleman was sharp to notice that I launched the valuation of lands agency at 2 o'clock today in Belfast. There are seven agencies, and three further candidates are under consideration. That amounts to some 9,000 civil servants--more than 30 per cent. of the staff of the Northern Ireland Departments in the Northern Ireland Office. That is not slothful. Nor is it a record of which we can be other than proud. But so far none of them has needed trading fund status or been candidates for it. Therefore, we are taking the steps that I have described. Far from being slothful, we are taking those steps in good time so that if we have any candidates for trading fund status, we have the legislation in place. I hope that that makes the position perfectly clear.

The hon. Member for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross) was a little unfair when he talked about quangos. Several quangos were set up in two short intermissions of socialism in an otherwise long period of Conservative rule. But next steps agencies are not quasi-governmental organisations. They are distinct business areas within Government Departments. The chief executives are directly responsible to the relevant Ministers. As luck would have it, I am the Minister to whom the chief executive of all the agencies which he mentioned is responsible. Therefore, I am not answering at arm's length but answering directly to hon. Members from Northern Ireland constituencies for the actions of those agencies. The accounting officer is fully answerable too.

The hon. Member for Londonderry, East asked whether there was a relationship between next steps agencies and Government-owned companies. Government-owned companies are a distinct category and the legislation is not relevant to their establishment.

The last item that was mentioned by the hon. Members for Wigan and for Londonderry, East was water privatisation. As they put it, they were sailing on the perimeters of order in doing so. Perhaps I can sail down that limit and give them an answer. The House will want to know that a consultancy study into the options for the privatisation of water and sewerage services in Northern Ireland has been completed. It has confirmed the feasibility of privatisation. However, for technical reasons, privatisation will not be possible in the lifetime of this Parliament.

Column 296

The Government remain committed to privatisation at the earliest practicable date. They believe that privatisation will offer benefits to the economy of Northern Ireland and, through appropriate regulation, directly to consumers, the environment and the general public. We are considering the best form of privatisation, including the benefits of a public offer for sale. In the meantime, we intend to explore the scope to introduce private finance into the provision of water and sewerage services in Northern Ireland to facilitate further improvements in drinking water quality and environmental standards in line with EC requirements. But, for the avoidance of doubt, let me say that it will not be possible, for technical reasons, to privatise the water industry in the lifetime of this Parliament. Mr. Trimble rose--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Is the Minister giving way or finishing?

Mr. Mates : I give way.

Mr. Trimble : I thank the Minister for the more precise explanation about the legislation. He said that the legislation was intended to prepare the way for next steps agencies that will require trading fund status. Presumably, the legislation will not be necessary if no next steps agencies will require trading fund status. It is a fair assumption to draw from the legislation that if the Government are making provision for next steps agencies to have trading fund status, there are proposals to give agencies such status. I should be grateful if the Minister would tell us which they are.

Mr. Mates : I can go no further than I went. I have been as open and frank with the House as I possibly can. We are introducing the order to bring the position of Northern Ireland in line with the rest of the United Kingdom. We are doing it in good time so that when and if we require the legislation to proceed with the next steps process, we have it in place in good time and properly. On that basis, I commend--

Mr. Beggs : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Mates : I am being very generous.

Mr. Beggs : I thank the Minister for giving way, and especially for the latter part of his response to this debate. I would not wish to claim that representations from Her Majesty's Opposition or from the elected representatives in Northern Ireland influenced the decision not to proceed at this time with the privatisation of water and sewerage services. Nevertheless, I welcome the announcement and trust that there will be no urgency on the part of the Government to proceed with that issue for some time.

Mr. Mates : It is amazing the number of times I have had to say things twice tonight. The Government are fully committed to the privatisation process. For a number of technical reasons, we have come to the conclusion that it is not possible to do it during the lifetime of this Parliament.

With those final words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I commend the order to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Financial Provisions (Northern Ireland) Order 1993, which was laid before this House on 11th February, be approved.

Column 297

Housing (Basildon)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Nicholas Baker.]

11.16 pm

Mr. David Amess (Basildon) : I am particularly pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) here this evening. She is an inspiration to the House, and to me in particular. I know that she is highly delighted about the success of her constituent Eamonn Martin in the London marathon on Sunday. He is her constituent, living in Laindon, but he runs for Basildon athletics club.

Much as I and the House appreciate the very considerable attractions of my constituency, I have to make it absolutely clear that it is simply not possible, or indeed desirable, for the whole of the United Kingdom to be housed in my constituency of Basildon. As any hon. Member will freely admit, the No. 1 demand from constituents as they come to one's surgery is always for accommodation. But throughout the 10 years that I have represented the town, some of the demands have become increasingly unreasonable. Much of this, I believe, is caused by what I describe as the breakdown of traditional family life in this country and the popularity of transient relationships. By this I mean men moving in and out of relationships with women, producing children and then abandoning those women and the children. This trend I utterly condemn. The women and the children are the victims of the irresponsible behaviour of many men. It is not acceptable for those men to regard the state as a substitute family ; it can never be that.

This practice is certainly causing mayhem to housing demands throughout the country, not just in Basildon, together with the inability of many family units to support 16, 17 and 18-year-olds. All this I see as impacting on housing needs, not just in my constituency but throughout the land. It is just not possible for the state to meet all the demands that are being made on it at the moment.

Until May of last year, the socialists ran the council in Basildon, when they were thrown out of office. Their housing policy, such as it was, was an absolute disgrace, and led to continual charges of unfairness. There was complete hostility to the private sector, and the socialists saw housing simply as a means to foster their own insidious propaganda. Nowhere can this be more clearly seen than in connection with what happened over the transfer of housing and the ballot that then took place.

A number of officers put aside the respected tradition of political neutrality and were recruited to help their brothers and sisters in their political cause. Those people, I recall, said that they would never work with a Conservative council, if it were ever elected, or indeed serve under a Conservative Government. I trust that the officers who made those statements are examining their consciences at the moment and are no longer in the council's employ.

Quite what the housing policy was is not clear. Whether they saw senior citizens or young people as a captive market I do not know, but, whatever the demands, somehow they would pretend that the state could meet them.

So we had the ridiculous situation whereby no one on the engaged couples list ever got housed. I grew increasingly tired of parents coming to my surgery and

Column 298

complaining that their children were never offered accommodation. They said that they had come to the town as pioneers in 1952 and that they had been promised accommodation for second and third generations, but it had never happened.

People complained that they had been given off-the-record advice in the area offices that the way to get housed was to have a baby. What disgraceful advice that was, and what an environment in which to bring a child into the world. Charges were continually made of unfairness in the allocation of property. Time after time, constituents would imply corruption, which was difficult to substantiate. They would say that so-and -so knew someone in the housing department and managed to get housed. They asked me how that could have happened. I never had an answer, as the charges were never based on firm evidence.

Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay) : Is it not a fact that, despite all the appalling Labour party policies, the Conservative party policy to allow people to buy their own home took off wonderfully well in a new town which had formerly only rented property, so that today more than 57 per cent. of all households in Basildon are owner-occupied? It is a much higher percentage than in Battersea, for example, which is reckoned to be a yuppie place, calls itself "Battarsia" and has a postal address of south west one one.

Mr. Amess : I was not aware of the history of Battersea, but my hon. Friend is an inspiration to us all. She is quite right about the success of the sale of council houses. As we all know, the Labour party fought that policy word by word and line by line. Labour Members never wanted to enfranchise people by giving them the opportunity to own their own houses and enjoy the discounts. My hon. Friend was right to remind the House of that.

It has been a nightmare for the newly elected Conservative council to unravel the mess. However, it is well on the way to arriving at a fair policy whereby we shall have to draw a line under what has gone before, and everyone will be clear about the criteria for getting public accommodation.

I am advised that, later this month, the authority is to engage a new housing director with considerable expertise and that the new council enthusiastically embraces the Government's policies on the right to buy, share ownership and financial assistance for tenants to move back into the private sector.

I am delighted to tell the House that council arrears have now been tackled ; the reduction in the past six months is double the total of all reductions in arrears in the past 10 years. That is quite incredible. Default action initiatives have been successfully piloted in Basildon and Billericay. I pay a warm tribute to the leader of the council, Tony Archer, the chairman of the housing committee, Councillor Brin Jones, and his deputy Councillor Mark Francois, for their splendid efforts. The housing committee has accepted the citizens charter, with performance indicators produced by the Audit Commission.

There was scarcely a clearer example of socialist hypocrisy in housing matters than in the ballot for the transfer of commission houses to either the local authority or a housing association. On a number of occasions, the socialist council had been offered the Commission for the

Column 299

New Towns property and, when close to settlement, pulled out of the deal with the Departent of the Environment, producing considerable loss of income to local residents. That was in stark contrast to socialist-controlled Harlow, which accepted the property from the Commission for the New Towns.

In a wicked fashion, socialist activists embarked on a campaign to pretend that the Government would deprive tenants of their democratic right to choose the landlord of their liking. I recall their many bizarre distortions of the Government's policy. They deliberately tried to scare tenants, particularly the elderly, against the attraction of any other landlord. It is somewhat ironic that it took a Conservative council to conduct the ballot and enable local residents to choose their landlord.

I am delighted to tell the House that four out of five tenants felt sufficiently confident with the Conservative council to support a change of landlord--85 per cent. of them chose that council as their preferred landlord. The rest chose the admirable Basildon housing association. Sadly, some 2,000 tenants chose not to exercise their vote, and their properties are now in the course of being allocated. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Hayes) went through a similar process of housing transfer recently.

I would be grateful if my hon. Friend the Minister could tell me about the time scale of the transfer, how that matter will be handled and how those tenants who did not express a preference will be allocated their landlord.

The Government have already decided to provide finance for the Siporex redevelopment and rebuild, and the Basildon housing association will be responsible for the project. It is interesting to note, however, that their parallel consultation exercise resulted in more than two thirds of tenants choosing the Basildon housing association rather than the council as their landlord.

In the time that I have been involved in the whole sorry saga, a number of the unhelpfully designed and environmentally hostile estates in my constituency have come to need structural changes. I know that the residents of those estates are delighted that the Government, through the CNT, will ensure that the Siporex properties are brought up to the highest possible standard. The local authority was pleased with its housing investment programme allocation and the fact that £319,000 has been applied to another housing association scheme. It is also pleased that all requested capital programme improvements by council JEM--joint estate management--schemes have been agreed out of expected funds of £2.4 million.

The local authority and its tenants were also delighted that, thanks to Government support, the redevelopment of the Crudens estate has now started. I was privileged to be present at the recent start of work. I know that one of the Housing Ministers hopes to visit that scheme later this year. Because of the expensive works involved, that scheme must be carried out over a number of phases. Tenants have asked me to try to get some information from my hon. Friend about when the further stages, which include the remaining parts of the estate, will start. The council would, as ever, be grateful for any financial support when the appropriate allocations are made.

Column 300

The council is also anxious for the Government to continue their support so that the extensive underpinning of works on properties opposite St. Mary's church hall, the Triangle, Langdon Hills can be finished. I hope that the contractors will bear local residents in mind, because they do not want their lives to be made hell by the constant flow of heavy lorries in and out of the estate.

The housing committee believes that it has kept its homelessness figures relatively low by utilising all manner of innovative housing. That includes leasing short-term properties and leasing police and Essex county council properties, unused sheltered housing schemes and so on.

The whole issue of bed and breakfast accommodation is a real worry for the council. My hon. Friends will agree that the amount of money being expended on that sort of accommodation is crazy, for it is not satisfactory, and most constituents must go to Southend which, although a lovely seaside resort, is not exactly close to our area. There must be a better and more cost-effective method of dealing with the problem.

The council is reviewing its points allocation system. Some members feel strongly that the Government should agree to all waiting list applicants, and not all so-called homeless families, taking social housing that is available. They believe that that policy would mean that those on the waiting list would get into the homeless situation. They think it unfair that couples should wait three, four or five years when the homeless are housed in 18 to 24 months. The whole concept and application of homelessness requires careful definition.

Mrs. Gorman : Is it not a fact that the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977, a typical piece of socialist legislation, has been responsible for stimulating some very anti-social behaviour on the part of some parents, who deliberately throw their youngsters out of the house to put pressure on the council to house them, with the taxpayer footing the bill?

Mr. Amess : I agree with my hon. Friend. Such anti-social behaviour, with children being thrown on to the streets, causes general disturbance and is totally unacceptable. Parents must accept greater responsibility.

An Englishman's home, like a Basildonian's, is his castle. I thank and congratulate the housing ministerial team at the Department of the Environment for the support and encouragement we have been given over the years. I sometimes get angry, as does my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay, with the lack of individual responsibility on the part of some people and the abuse of publicly provided housing. It is not necessary to have a lot of money to be clean and tidy and behave well. The anti-social behaviour of some people in settled areas, upsetting everyone, is not acceptable.

Frankly, I and the council could never provide sufficient housing to meet the endless demand. A fair and reasonable policy is needed. I am absolutely committed to ensuring the provision of housing of the very highest standards for all local residents in my constituency. Clear evidence of the warm-heartedness of my constituents was revealed in the latest census of the possession of household amenities, which showed that Basildon enjoyed per household the greatest number of central heating units in Britain.

Column 301

11.32 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tony Baldry) : I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon(Mr. Amess) on securing this debate. The House knows that Basildon is close to the Government's heart, and I take this opportunity to congratulate Eamonn Martin, who typifies the spirit of Basildon, on winning this year's London marathon.

My hon. Friend is right to point out that much of the pressure on housing results from changes in the way we live. Too often, we speak of housing "need" when it is really expectation. Naturally, youngsters like independence, but I urge them and their families not to be too hasty in parting company if they cannot afford to house themselves.

There is no way in which the state can or could suggest, or has ever suggested, that it should house all young people when they become 18 and decide that they want to live on their own. There are already many spare rooms in private and local authority housing as families grow up and move on, and I hope that our tax incentives to people to let those rooms will help.

I share my hon. Friend's concerns about bed and breakfast. It is a wholly unsatisfactory system. It is unsatisfactory for those who are put in it and expensive on the public purse. I believe that there are currently over 70 households placed in bed and breakfast by Basildon district council--a legacy of Labour control--but I know that council members are looking at ways of bringing those numbers right down. Already they have shown enterprise in successfully bidding under our housing partnership scheme for resources that, along with housing corporation funds and private finance, will enable a housing association to build more than 50 homes to rent, and so reduce the need for bed and breakfast accommodation. Basildon council also bid successfully for a share of the extra resources announced in the autumn statement for a cash incentive scheme aimed at reducing homelessness.

We have recommended to council tenants that they think seriously about the right to buy. Now is the time to consider house purchase--with low prices, low interest rates and substantial discounts available. At the same time, to ensure that councils see the benefit in promoting sales, we are giving them an opportunity to put more of their capital receipts to work and to help homeless families. No doubt Conservative-controlled Basildon council will seize all those opportunities to benefit tenants who become home owners. The council will have the benefit of all the capital receipts which it can reinvest in housing in the district.

I am sure that Basildon's Conservative council will also want to develop its enabling role in order to offer the people of Basildon a better choice of housing than just the near-monopoly of municipal renting that they have had in the past. The previous Labour administration's slowness to team up with the housing association movement cost the people of Basildon dearly. Both we and the Housing Corporation were forced to conclude that money would be better allocated to areas where we considered that more cost- effective use would be made of it.

Basildon was under a Labour council with an unrealistic approach, which meant that it not only lost money from the Housing Corporation, so that housing associations could not build new homes to rent, but that it

Column 302

also lost the capacity to draw in further resources for housing from the private sector. I am glad to say that that is now in the past. The people of Basildon have voted, and Basildon now has a sensible Conservative council, determined to go forward and ensure that every family has a decent home in which to live.

As to the ballot among former new town tenants, I can understand that many voted for the familiarity of the council, encouraged by confidence in the newly elected Conservative council. The Basildon community housing association now has a useful stock as a basis for bigger and better things. I congratulate the association on its efforts. I am sure that those who voted for it will be pleased that they did so.

When the ballot was over, there was the question of empty houses and those of non-voters. Those have been allocated between the council and the housing association in the same proportion as the voting went, but in ways that make for good management. I understand that both the housing association and the council are content with that policy, which seems all very fair and sensible to me. My hon. Friend referred to Siporex properties, which are coming to the end of their useful life and which it is proposed should be redeveloped. We have been very fair about them. Tenants of Siporex houses were given the chance to vote in the ballot in the same way as everyone else, even though it was not proposed that they should transfer for the time being. Most of them voted for the housing association, and as far as possible individual wishes will be met when redevelopment proposals have been worked out.

As my hon. Friend knows, the Crudens estate has benefited from estate action resources to the tune of £2,900,000 over three years. I do not blame my hon. Friend for hoping for more--indeed, as a result of his continued lobbying, we found another £200,000 for Crudens, and the district has also been able to pull in another £1,500,000 from the Housing Corporation. Basildon council has not asked us for any more money for that estate.

There is stiff competition for estate action resources, and I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates that, if any further works are required on the Crudens estate, any bid would be considered alongside the requirements of estates elsewhere. We must recognise that some of those estates have problems that are even more serious than those of the Crudens estate.

I hope that I have shown my hon. Friend that we are well aware of the key local housing issues in Basildon. My Department's regional office is in regular contact with Basildon council, and my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing, Planning and Construction met leading members at the opening of a new housing association development there only three weeks ago. I know that Basildon council's current Conservative administration has inherited considerable difficulties, but I am confident that it will be both flexible and pragmatic in ensuring that its housing policies attract a fair and proper share of public resources for housing in Basildon and tap the maximum potential of private resources.

We are determined to have the best possible housing in Basildon, and I have confidence that, with a Conservative council, Basildon's housing strategy will continue to go from strength to strength. Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes to Twelve o'clock.

Written Answers Section

Home Page