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Mr. Nicholas Winterton : And dishonest.
Mr. Carlisle : It is dishonest. If we work on the theory that we should pass legislation, or, in this case, ratify a treaty because we think that it will not in the end affect us, we are all wasting our time. Many hon. Members have used that theory as an excuse not to join us in opposing the treaty. The people must have, and should be given, the
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chance to express their opinion, which I know would reflect that held by right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who oppose this wretched treaty.Mr. Charles Kennedy : The speech of the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) showed yet again--it has been a feature of almost every speech from a Conservative Member, not just in tonight's debate but in almost every debate that we have had on any aspect of the Bill--the private horrors in the Conservative party, with pressure being put on Back Benchers, and all the rest of it. We appreciate that the Government must try to get their way, but the referendum issue has a distinct nature, quite separate from trying to change this or that part of the Bill, or to put in the social chapter rather than leave it out. Therefore, if there were one issue on which it would have made eminently good sense for the Government and, for that matter, the Labour party simply to have a free vote to find out the sentiment of the House, it was a referendum.
When my right hon. Friend the leader of the Liberal Democrats first mentioned his preference for a referendum some months ago, it was made clear then, and I make it clear now, that it causes us no difficulty that there are differences within the party. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston), who has been most active during the debates on the Bill, will assuredly vote against the new clause that is aimed at introducing a referendum. I have worked with him throughout the proceedings on the Bill, and I shall be voting for a referendum. That makes no difference, given that we share an identical view --that Maastricht should be ratified and built on along lines that would not find favour with any of the Euro-sceptics on either side of the House, as we should like Europe to go in a more federal direction. We feel that we can hold that view while having open and honest differences about whether the British people should be consulted on the Bill.
Mr. Austin Mitchell : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, with such an astonishing record of consistency, with such defence of fair and democractic principles, with such courage, the Liberals should be interested in having their peformance brought out in the prime-time debates rather than carrying the whole thing through at dead of night, as they conspired to do by voting with the Government on the 10 o'clock motion?
Mr. Kennedy : I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman. We were anxious that today should be a clean debate on the referendum in prime time, and I regret that the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) scuppered today's proceedings by tabling a motion attacking the Chairman of Ways and Means and taking up three hours of our time in a debate on that. If there are criticisms, they should be directed towards the right hon. Gentleman, not towards the Liberal Democrats.
Mr. Michael Spicer (Worcestershire, South) : I ask this question because I genuinely want information. The rumour around the tea rooms and corridors is that the Liberals are split on the issue. Is the hon. Gentleman carrying the whole of his party with him in what he is saying?
Mr. Kennedy : Given that intervention, I am beginning to feel some sympathy for Ministers who have been trying to get their message across to the furthest reaches of the Back Benches. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the record
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tomorrow, he will see that I began by saying that there should be a free vote, and that there are different views among Liberal Democrats. I cited the example of my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber who holds views on the referendum that are the opposite of mine.Mr. Bill Walker : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Kennedy : The night would not be complete without the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Walker : Does the hon. Gentleman wonder how hon. Members who represent Scotland and who regularly advocate referendums on matters affecting Scottish constitutional issues can tell their constituents that they could not support a referendum on the treaty? The hon. Gentleman approves of it--I do not--but he must recognise that it has massive constitutional implications. Does he think that it makes any sense for those hon. Members to tell their constituents that they will not support a call for a referendum on the treaty, when they constantly call for a referendum on Scotland?
Mr. Kennedy : That is somewhat off the point, but I am in favour of referendums on Scotland and on Maastricht. One could argue that the nature of the treaty, which involves other powers and other countries, albeit within the EC, means that a referendum on it would be of a different nature from one that would pertain only to our constitutional arrangements. I would not argue for such a distinction, but I appreciate that it could be made.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Kennedy : Yes, but I must then make progress.
Mr. Winterton : I genuinely like the hon. Gentleman, although I disagree with his views. On this issue, however, we are as one in our support of a referendum on the treaty. Does he accept, however, that he was unfair on the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) when he said that that right hon. Gentleman had wasted more than three hours of our time? Tomorrow has also been allocated for further progress on the Bill, when we will merely debate issues on which both sides of the Committee appear to be united. Why should we proceed after 10 o'clock to debate a matter that could be debated tomorrow? If the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues had supported those of us who opposed the lifting of the 10 o'clock rule, perhaps we would have got what we all desired.
Mr. Kennedy : I thank the hon. Gentleman for his complimentary opening comments. We are not privy or party to what the hon. Gentleman's business managers and Whips decide about certain amendments. The hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) spoke about deals, but my party has not been party to any. We cannot plan on the basis of possible Government action ; that is a matter for them. It is clear from the debates that have taken place in the Chamber and outside throughout this whole drawn-out process that the social dimensions of the treaty remain profound and politically charged. Whether the Government are attempting to weave, take the sting out or avoid defeat tomorrow, it is important that the debates on those dimensions are rehearsed then, especially if one subscribes to the view held by the hon. Member for
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Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) and many of his hon. Friends about the importance of our forum as the cockpit of the nation. Those debates should take place whether or not the Government have staged a tactical retreat in advance.The precedent for a referendum on constitutional issues has been established in all four parts of the United Kingdom. Other countries have also held referendums in the course of ratifying Maastricht. I share the hostility that is expressed when we are told that the issues are too complex for the people to understand. That is an awful slippery slope and the thin end of the wedge. Our people have a good democratic track record based on constitu-tional history and I cannot believe that they would not understand the arguments if they were thrashed out in a referendum campaign, especially when the people of Denmark, Ireland and France were capable of doing so. When people say that it is all too complicated for the typical citizen and the average voter, that reveals more of the arrogance of those who make the assertion than the intelligence of the voters to whom the proposition is being put.
Mr. Donald Anderson : The answer is, as President Mitterrand said, that the people will answer the wrong question, not that the question is too complex. They will answer the wrong question because the response will reflect the view of the Government of the day. The French referendum was about the standing or otherwise of President Mitterrand, views on immigration and views on agriculture--issues which were all unrelated to the Maastricht treaty. I took part in the French referendum and I know that Maastricht played a small part in the decision of the French people. That is the danger of referendums, not the complexity of the issue.
11.45 pm
Mr. Kennedy : Any Member sitting on the Opposition Benches, irrespective of the party that he represents, probably thought just over a year ago, "The damned people of this country made the wrong decision." How inconvenient and troublesome it was for us, but in their wisdom that was the decision that they took. I revert to the thin-end-of-the-wedge argument : if anyone fears that the people will answer the wrong question, or answer the right question but not give the answer that is wanted, which is another way of putting the same thing, he is embarking on a dangerous road.
Sir Russell Johnston : Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Kennedy : I shall happily give way to, perhaps, my former hon. Friend.
Sir Russell Johnston : My hon. Friend has suggested that those who are opposed to referendums might be arrogant. He referred to the referendum in Denmark and asked why there could not be one in the United Kingdom. Does he recall that it was established after the referendum in Denmark that about two weeks before it took place about 28 per cent. of the Danish population had never heard of Maastricht?
Mr. Kennedy : Those of us who have sat through the night over the past few months considering the Maastricht treaty might think that the 28 per cent. were blessed. I
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would say to my hon. Friend, or my party colleague, which is how I would describe him in this instance, that in the United Kingdom the arguments have been pretty well thrashed out when referendums have taken place in the past. The media--especially the television medium--have performed a valuable role in giving a considerable amount of coverage to referendums. I should like to think that the percentage of those in the United Kingdom who had not heard about Maastricht would be considerably smaller than in Denmark. I must make that the last intervention because I want toSir Terence Higgins : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Kennedy : No, I will not give way to the right hon. Gentleman. I have given way to him already. I must move on.
Maastricht is a constitutional issue. I have much sympathy with the so- called Euro-sceptics as they have dissected the various aspects of the treaty. They have examined citizenship, the meaning of a European union, the provision of a central bank and the longer-term development of a single currency, which are all issues of massive constitutional import for the United Kingdom. It is the Government Front Bench that has bedevilled the entire process. There are those who have told the truth as they see it. They have expressed their views honestly and openly as they see them. I should like to think that my right hon. and hon. Friends and I have done so. On many occasions we have been in the minority, but we have talked about the way in which we would like to see Europe develop.
I acknowledge that many of those who are dead against Maastricht, along with many other features of the European experiment or construction, have also spoken honestly. Unfortunately, the Government have not spoken out firmly and consistently for what they want from Maastricht. They have not set out their long-term vision because they have been trying to appeal to two irreconcilable audiences--those who are in the vanguard, as it were, of European development, who want to see Britain's future firmly enmeshed and integrated in the rest of Europe, and those who are not.
For as long as the House of Commons and the country generally suffer from that vacillation--the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, the Home Secretary and their ministerial colleagues have been trying to square the circle--we shall not be able to say that we have distinguished ourselves with a sufficiently honest or open debate on an important treaty. That is one of the reasons--in regard to Maastricht itself--that lead me to believe that we should secure a more open and honest debate if that debate were thrashed out up and down the land.
I subscribe to some of the criticisms that we have heard tonight and on other occasions. It has been pointed out, for example, that we have had to sit late into the night ; certainly we have used our votes to facilitate that, because we want the treaty to be ratified. I should like to think, however, that if a message has emerged from the way in which this extremely important matter has been handled by the House of Commons, it relates to the overwhelming case for reforming our own procedures.
It is high time that we started sitting in the mornings, sitting earlier and more constructively in the afternoons and using prime time in the sense that that is recognised by
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people outside--that is, normal working hours. The public should see major decisions being made--big votes being taken--early in the evening, perhaps after a day's debate. I should like to think that a referendum campaign could be broadened to cover more than Maastricht itself, and to deal with what the handling of the treaty has revealed about the mechanisms of the House of Commons.There is, without doubt, a sense that the politicians are out of step with the electorates. We have seen that in the United States, with the phenomenon of Ross Perot's taking nearly 20 per cent. of the vote ; we have seen it on the continent, where people are turning increasingly to right- wing leaders of a rather unpleasant variety. It may be the result of the recession ; it may be because the political classes have been seen to be talking about Maastricht in what is all too often an exclusive way, not including the public. That is a dangerous position to get into in any individual democracy. It is particularly dangerous when we are trying to weld together a complicated European Community, leading on to a European union that is, itself, a hybrid or mosaic composed of a number of democracies with different traditions and attitudes.
I believe that a referendum at this stage would be a useful way of forcing all of us to go out and explain to our electorate, in as much detail as we can, what the treaty is about and our individual attitudes to it. We might find at the end of such an exercise that there was less distance between this place as an establishment and the country as a whole, and I believe that that would be healthy for democracy itself.
My final point has already been raised by the right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham). He said that, at the end of the day, he did not believe that a referendum would solve the issue, just as Harold Wilson's referendum in the mid-1970s on the renegotiated terms of the Common Market did not resolve that issue. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is right ; I hope that a referendum would not resolve the issue. The whole point of a referendum is
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that--like a general election--it provides a snapshot of public opinion on a particular day. It does not show the whole film ; it shows one frame out of the reel. In any democracy, the campaigns and debates of bol conference in 1996, and decisions will flow from that. There will be more heated arguments in the House.Mr. Donald Anderson : There will be another referendum.
Mr. Kennedy : Whatever the Government of the day, if it comes to a proposal for a single currency, for instance, the House of Commons might well decide on a referendum. Why not? We, as democratically elected Members of Parliament, are obliged to renew our mandate every four or five years ; equally, when the very basis of our parliamentary democracy is involved, I see no logical reason for us not to try to renew our mandate for Britain's continued involvement in Europe--and for the deepening of that involvement in a more federal direction, which I should like to see.
Although at times our proceedings have been neither neat nor elegant--we have not distinguished ourselves in our handling of the treaty so far--we can go a long way towards improving our reputation by putting the question to the people. I do not believe that we have anything to fear. Despite the strong sentiments expressed here and the reservations expressed outside, I am confident that a vigorous referendum campaign on the Maastricht treaty-- which would oblige party leaders and others to line up, broadly speaking, in its favour--would produce a yes vote. That would lead to the authority of the House being strengthened and to the role of this country in Europe being strengthened, too.
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Mr. Hurd : Tonight's argument is full of echoes from the past. It started many years ago. In 1972, Parliament passed the European Communities Act. Thus, 20 years ago Parliament enabled the Government of the day to ratify British accession to the treaty of Rome. We thereby then, in 1972, committed ourselves to the defined aim of that treaty--the ever closer union of peoples. We thereby then, in 1972, agreed a system of European lawmaking which we have practised ever since as members of the Community.
When I listen to and read the report of the debates in this Committee, I am struck over and over again--and yet again tonight--by the way in which criticism centres not so much on the treaty of Maastricht as on those two aspects of the treaty of accession. It centres not on the proposals of 1992 but on the decision of 1972. That came through very clearly when I listened to the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Fry).
When I put that point to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd), he partially accepted it. It was in 1972 that the House faced, and resolved, this fundamental question of the relationship between its powers and British membership of the Community. As I listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills when, in an eloquent and remarkable speech, he moved the new clause, the echoes were very clear. The arguments, almost the words, were those used by another eloquent and remarkable parliamentary orator, the former Member of Parliament for South Down. The echoes were unmistakable.
Mr. Benn : The point that the right hon. Gentleman makes confirms everything that we say : that in 1972 there was no popular consent. The argument was never presented to the public. The decision was imposed by the Government--whether he was a member of it I cannot remember--on the House of Commons against the wishes of the then Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman is right : the Government have never won public support for that transfer of power. Even in 1975 it was a bit too late, but even after the 1975 referendum there remains deep public hostility, because those who advocate a federal Europe have never had the guts to tell the public what it is really about.
Mr. Hurd : But the referendum that the right hon. Gentleman proposes would not alter that situation one whit. It would leave all the apparatus of the treaty of Rome, the treaty of accession, the 1972 Act and the Single European Act in place. That is exactly the point that I was beginning to make.
Three years later, in 1975, the Government who were then in power--the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) knows more about this than most of us--were divided on this issue and solved this critical internal problem by proposing a referendum. The Conservative party had to define its attitude. Its leaders knew that the motives of the Government of the day were not reputable. They were concerned to keep themselves in office, papering over this division over a central part of their policy.
If there were ever a case for holding a referendum on Europe, that case was stronger at the time of entry than it has ever been since, yet when the Conservative party in opposition in 1975 had to define its position it came out against a referendum, and it was right to do so. The
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reasons were spelt out on 11 March of that year by the leader of the party. It was her first major parliamentary speech as Leader of the Opposition. I joined almost all of my party, including many right hon. and hon. Friends here today, and went into the Lobby to vote against the holding of a referendum on our membership of the Community.It is worth looking up that speech. It was a remarkable speech which took into account both sides of the argument. She pointed out that the 1975 referendum was not a principled constitutional innovation, as I have said. It was a device, but that did not dispose of the argument. There was a general constitutional argument which also had to be considered. She dwelt- -and we need to dwell tonight--on the nature of our parliamentary tradition, and many hon. Members on both sides of the argument have done so.
12 midnight
I do not believe that our parliamentary tradition has failed, as has been suggested, to cope with the problem since 1972. With the Danes and the Folketing, we have the most highly developed system for the scrutiny of Community legislation. Our Prime Minister was the only leader to go to the Maastricht conference with a specific authority from his Parliament, which was then met in full. It is worth running through the sequence of events to show how the parliamentary system has worked in this respect. On 20 and 21 November 1991, before my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister went to Maastricht, the House of Commons was asked to approve a motion endorsing his negotiating position and did so by a majority of 101. That was not necessary and probably not even usual before such a conference and negotiation. It was a precaution because my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was anxious at all stages to carry the House--the previous Parliament--with him.
On 18 and 19 December, immediately after Maastricht, the House of Commons was asked to approve the outcome of the negotiation and did so by a majority of 86. In May last year, after the election, the present Parliament was asked to grant a Second Reading to the Bill, necessary for the ratification of the treaty, and did so by a majority of 244.
This is not an idle or atrophied system. It is parliamentary democracy at work, complete with imperfections--I agree with the hon. Member for Ross, Cromarty and Skye (Mr. Kennedy)--untidiness and arguments about procedure and when we should discuss this or that point. I do not give great weight to the argument that this was done blindfold because it took time to achieve and circulate an authentic full text of the treaty. Of course, it was not done blindfold. Parliament knew what was happening. Those who took part in the discussion at the general election knew what the treaty involved, and the blindfold argument does not stand up in real life.
Mr. Cash rose--
Mr. Hurd : May I just pursue this sequence of events?
Of course there was not a clash between the parties--there was a difference of emphasis--but I repeat what I said to the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould). I do not like to toss around the word "arrogant", which has been tossed around, but his speech was a rather patronising lecture on the nature of parliamentary responsibilities. As I said when he was kind enough to give
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way, I reject entirely the suggestion that there was a conspiracy to keep the silence on this matter, either in the general election or beyond. Personally, I can testify how often I tried to include in that campaign the speeches and broadcasts on the subject-- admittedly for party political reasons, as I wanted to bring out the nuances between the parties. However, it was not possible to do so because, from the media's point of view, it was not a great issue.Mr. Cash : Does my right hon. Friend recall that he advocated a White Paper during the leadership election campaign? Will he explain why we had no White Paper? Since Second Reading and our withdrawal from the exchange rate mechanism, and in the light of the Danish referendum, how can we give the same credibility to the Second Reading that we might have done in May last year? Does he agree that the circumstances have changed radically, as result of which we deserve a referendum?
Mr. Hurd : We had a White Paper on events in the Community, but as I recall it was made particular by a foreword by the Prime Minister. Of course events move on. I accept what my hon. Friend says about that. There were the Danish referendum and the events of 16 September, but the treaty is the same treaty. I do not accept my hon. Friend's analysis of the ERM. There have been many discussions about that in the Committee, and I do not accept that what happened revolutionised the situation in the way that my hon. Friend described.
I make this point gently, but it is odd that those who would put most emphasis on the sovereignty of the House believe that it needs to be buttressed, to put it mildly--I would say that it would be weakened--by recourse to a referendum on the matter before us. I share the opinion of those who think that if there were a campaign a referendum would endorse the treaty. I cannot prove it, but I think it likely that once the phantasms were effectively swept away, that would probably be the result. We certainly are not taking our present line because of fear of a negative result.
Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow) : I ask my right hon. Friend one question : does he believe that the majority of Conservative voters are in favour of the treaty on European union?
Mr. Hurd : I cannot prove it scientifically to my hon. Friend, but I believe that the answer is yes.
As Parliament is sovereign--
Mr. Budgen : Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Hurd : I shall get on a bit, and then I shall give way to my hon. Friend, as I believe that I always have done.
As Parliament is sovereign, it is clear that it could decide to hold a referendum, which it could either accept or reject. It could certainly choose, as it has before, to ask for advice from those who sent us here. But I return to the fact that we owe our constituents our judgment, and if we decline to exercise that judgment we are to some extent damaging the authority of Parliament.
Many people can be quoted on both sides of the argument. One of those is certainly Winston Churchill. My hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Sir R. Moate) referred to him. When the point came up in 1911 Churchill said :
"We believe in democracy, we believe in representative institutions, we believe in democracy acting through representative institutions We believe Members of
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Parliament are representatives, not delegates. We believe that Governments are the guides as well as the servants of the Nation." I readily acknowledge that Churchill can also be quoted on the other side of the argument, but when he held the opposite view in 1945 the normal constitutional procedures were in suspense, as my hon. Friend would agree.My right hon. Friend the Baroness Thatcher quoted Dicey in her speech in 1975, but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) said, Dicey too, went through a flip-flop. He was against referendums in one edition and in favour of them in another, when he passionately opposed home rule. Then he reverted to wisdom in what I believe was his final edition, and he was against referendums again. One could now also quote my right hon. Friend the Baroness Thatcher on both sides of the argument, but it might be prudent to resist the temptation to do so.
Mr. Budgen : May I refer my right hon. Friend back to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) asked him about the balance of opinion within the Conservative party? Judging by his own local party, does he agree that it is probable that about half the Conservative party in the country opposed the treaty? Yet out of a parliamentary party of 335 Members, only 26 oppose the treaty--between 8 and 9 per cent. Does that not show that, as a result of the pressures on the parliamentary party, we in that party do not even begin to represent the balance of opinion in the party outside?
Mr. Hurd : As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill)--and I am not sure whether my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) has buttressed the argument--there is no scientific measure.
Like the Labour party, the Conservative party has a party conference. We had a trot around this course at the last party conference. We had a very lively debate in which I and others had the privilege to take part. We had a vote at the end of that debate and the result was very satisfactory from my point of view. That was after the Danish referendum and after the events of 16 September. That was the Conservative party in full plenary conference, expressing its views very substantially and clearly on that particular issue. We do not have quite the same rigid views about our party conferences as the Labour party, but my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-East is provoking me into making constitutional doctrine in this matter.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills was absolutely right. The 1975 referendum is not the only referendum that has been held. However, it is not fair to go on to argue, as my hon. Friend did, being a little economical with history, that the referendum has become a normal part of our constitutional practice.
The strongest point in the armoury of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills was the Northern Ireland border poll. I accept that. It is the only example of a referendum being put into practice by a Conservative Government. Others have been toyed with for different reasons by leaders of the Conservative party, but they were not actually activated. In that, as in many respects, Northern Ireland is unique in the politics of the kingdom.
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An act of self-determination solely for the people of the Province was, and remains as it is still on the statute book, a reasonable technique.I want now to consider the proposal for a referendum on this subject. We have contended throughout the debate that the treaty does not mark a fundamental constitutional shift. When we joined the European Community we joined a body with both an economic and a political dimension. If we read through the debates in 1972, through the literature of 1975 and through the document that the leader of my party sent to party activists during the 1975 campaign, the political and economic arguments for remaining in the Community are clear. The doctrine of the primacy of Community law that lies at the heart of so many understandable criticisms about the nature of the Community is a doctrine of 1972, not of the treaty of Maastricht.
Mr. Donald Anderson : Is not that argument fortified by the 1975 referendum which surely cannot have been a decision on a Europe that was static and which would remain fossilised in the 1975 position? Inherent in that popular vote in 1975 was a vote for the dynamic Europe that would evolve.
Mr. Hurd : That is right. However, the hon. Gentleman's point begs the question of in which direction it should evolve and I will consider that in a minute.
The use of qualified majority voting is perhaps a test. It was not invented in the treaty of Maastricht. It is in the treaty of Rome. It received its greatest extension in the Single European Act. There was no referendum on that and precious little call for one.
The treaty of Maastricht adds to and, in some helpful ways, redefines and corrects the Single European Act and, I believe, is on the whole less constitutionally innovative than that Act. We have discussed subsidiarity and I will not repeat those arguments. Whether or not people believe that it is a weak or strong buttress, it is certainly an advance on the present position from the point of view of most hon. Members. That is an example of the point that I am trying to make.
Of course the treaty provides for the three stages of economic and monetary union. I deal with that point because many hon. Members have stressed it. In respect of the third stage of economic and monetary union, the only stage where compulsion comes into it, the Government have specifically and successfully reserved the decision for the House of Commons.
I will not go through all the details, but in other respects with regard to the treaty we have advanced our arguments and analyses. In the big new areas of European work, for the first time the principle of ever-closer union to which we have been committed since 1972 is defined in the treaty of Maastricht as co-operation between national Governments accountable to national Parliaments. It need not have been so. I mentioned that there was a Dutch draft in September which swept away that concept and put all European work under the court with the Commission having the monopoly initiative. We rejected that. The treaty that is before us is on a different basis.
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12.15 amMr. Spearing : Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the treaty of union requires the whole to be under a single institutional structure, even allowing for intergovernmental matters? Does he agree that the intergovernmental mode, of which he and the Prime Minister have made great play, will be inevitably interlarded in meetings of various Ministers, including the Foreign Secretary, in the general council? Therefore, the two in practice, as distinct from law, will become increasingly indistinguishable.
Mr. Hurd : The single framework of which the hon. Gentleman speaks includes intergovernmental co-operation. That co-operation was not included before : it was always the Community. The question was : how far should the Community's jurisdiction and activity extend? We now have a new structure under the Council of Ministers--the heads of state and Government--but not under the Commission. We have a different structure which includes, for the first time, the two new pillars. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is the difference. The House has the right and the capacity under our system to approve the treaty if it decides to do so. Other countries have referendums. Nine member states have proceeded through the parliamentary process and three have proceeded through the referendum technique. Having listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough and others, there is one point that I must stress because it is a difference between now and 1975. The treaty of Maastricht is not a take it or leave it matter as far as the Government are concerned. It cannot be detached from the rest of the Government's programme. I do not know what Lord Wilson's Government would have done if the vote had been no. I do not know how on earth it would have managed to take out of its policies something which even then was clearly central. I do not know how it would have wrestled with that.
Ratification of the treaty lies at the heart of our national interest : it is not an optional extra. We have made that point in the House at the cost of some crtiticism and discomfort. Governments are elected to govern and, in this case, to propose, just as Parliaments in the United Kingdom are elected to decide and, indeed, to dispose.
My hon. Friend the Member for Faversham made a critique which was much fairer and more balanced than that of the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould). [Interruption.] It is not "Oh, dear". I have noticed the way in which the speeches of my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham have evolved with the passage of time since the days 20 years ago-- [Interruption.] I am embarrassing him so I will leave that train of thought--but it is true.
One point made by my hon. Friend was true--my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough also referred to this. It is true that a good many of those who have consistently argued in favour of a steadily centralising Europe have not abandoned that belief. They will continue to argue for it. They have received--and they know it--not a rout or total reversal but a check in the way in which the Maastricht treaty came out, compared with the Dutch draft which I mentioned. They will live to argue again.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough referred to Chancellor Kohl. Chancellor Kohl specifically rejects the notion of a super-state and specifically endorses
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and emphasises the notion of subsidiarity. He uses phrases about a united Europe, just as Winston Churchill did. His question is : how is that defined?I must quarrel with the point made by the hon. Member for Ross, Cromarty and Skye. I cannot accept that the Prime Minister and other hon. Members on the Government Front Bench have failed to set out the sort of Europe that they want. Time and again in the House and outside, we have said that we believe in a Europe which is enlarged beyond its present membership of 12, open trading and decentralising and which uses, makes a success of and keeps distinct the intergovernmental pillars in the treaty. We have set out the idea time and again. It can be realised only on the basis of the treaty. It certainly cannot be realised by tearing up the treaty. But on that basis I believe that once the treaty is ratified we can go ahead and play an increasingly influential part in achieving that type of Europe. That is certainly the aim of the Government.
Let us consider what would happen if the series of new clauses were passed. I shall not dwell on what would have to happen immediately. There would have to be legislation. We would have to spend many hours, days, even weeks, working out the question, the date and how the various organisations would be financed. We would spend many more days not on substance but on procedure. I am not sure that that is what is expected of us.
Of course, all that work would be justified if my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills were right and we proposed constitutional revolution and destruction. I hope that I have demonstrated that the treaty does not represent that.
Mr. Graham : We have seen the House divided and many hon. Members have argued furiously about the rights and wrongs of Maastricht. We have spent months and months on it while unemployment has increased, factories have been closed, and people have died because they could not afford to live in this country. Surely if we had a referendum in three weeks it would be clear whether the people of Britain supported the Maastricht treaty or not. We could get on with normal living and hopefully make Europe a better place to live in. We cannot come to a final decision because the House is divided. So why not leave it to the supreme power in Britain--a referendum of the people?
Mr. Hurd : It is odd for a Member of Parliament, even the hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham), to suggest that, because Parliament is divided and different views are strongly expressed, we should avoid or transfer the decision. That is an odd doctrine. Few major propositions in the House are not divisive in the sense that people argue about them strongly within and between parties. That is not normally regarded as an argument for refusing to take a decision on an issue when so much work has gone into its discussion.
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