House of Commons Hansard Debates for 30 Apr 1993

Madam Deputy Speaker : I have been listening with attention and I agree that the debate is becoming rather

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wide, even for a Third Reading debate. I hope that the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman) will bear that in mind in his further remarks.

Mr. Couchman : I have nearly finished, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is worth mentioning that, although the case of the 15-year-old is outside the scope of the Bill, that boy was only a little older than the children that we are considering criminalising under the Bill. I am talking about deterrence, and it is beyond peradventure that the deterrent effect of the sentence passed on that 15-year-old was insufficient. I am glad to say that the case has been reviewed and that a more severe sentence has been imposed. The lack of adequate penalties for such crimes will certainly not assist in deterring potential criminals, but it will certainly deter victims from plucking up the courage to report such crimes and will also deter the police from encouraging the victims to prosecute.

If it is true that young people are more impressionable and can be influenced at an early age, the deterrent factor becomes critical. In dealing with juvenile crime, which the Bill seeks to do, there can be no benefit in altering the legal terminology--which distinction even the courts have difficulty in understanding, let alone a 10-year-old--yet making absolutely no distinction in terms of the severity of the sentence.

No one doubts that the purpose of the Bill should be supported. However, it is both premature and defective in several major respects. First, it seeks to redefine the category of sexual offences which can be committed by boys under 14 without providing measures to deal with these new offences. Secondly, the practical definition of such offences is even more difficult to apply with 10 to 13-year-olds than in dealing with current categories of juvenile offenders. Thirdly, the Bill does not provide any measures to deter or treat those who commit the new category of offences.

The Bill is premature and could be damaging in its present form, providing theory without substance. In my estimation, the Bill has had inadequate time for debate both on Second Reading and in Committee. If it achieves its Third Reading in a few minutes' time, it will go to the other place, where perhaps a judicial mind will be brought to bear on it. It may return to the House for the final day on private Members' Bills on 2 July in a rather better form than the form in which it will leave this place today.

12.4 pm

Mr. Nigel Evans : I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on Third Reading and to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Hayes) on introducing the Bill. The profile of law and order has certainly been raised recently. Only last week I attended a public meeting on the subject in one of the smaller villages in my constituency which was attended by more than 120 people. I was presented with a petition carrying more than 1,000 signatures--a great number for a local petition. Public awareness has been heightened and I know that many members of the public will wish the House to do something about the anomaly that we have been discussing. The Bill is important to the morale of the public, the police, those who work in the courts and the victims, whose interests it is extremely important to remember. I do not believe that the victims of rape care how old the perpetrator is. Why should they? We need to talk a little

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more and care a little more about the victims of crime such as rape, and that is what we are doing today. Their lives have been destroyed at the hands of vicious and callous individuals.

In many cases, those who commit the sickest of crimes know exactly what they are doing and must be held entirely responsible for their actions. There can be no mitigating factors. That is why I welcome the Bill, which will rectify the anomaly in the legal system whereby those under the age of 14 are considered incapable of intercourse and therefore incapable of rape. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) called it a legal myth, and that is exactly what it is. Young people under the age of 14 are very capable of achieving intercourse. The BMA's figures suggest that 2.5 per cent. of youngsters aged 12 or even younger have had a sexual encounter. It is important to remember that.

We cannot draw a line in the sand and state specifically when a person is old enough to achieve penetration. It varies widely from individual to individual. Therefore, in cases of rape, the crime should be judged on the facts : did it happen or did it not happen--was the victim raped or was the victim not raped? The age of the assailant should have no bearing on the issue. How can we tell the victim of rape that those responsible for the crime cannot be tried for the crime that they committed, only for a lesser offence? Have the victims not suffered enough already? Are we to deny them even more of their dignity?

On Second Reading of the Sexual Offences Bill in 1990, the then Minister of State, Home Office, said :

"Any hon. Member who has received, as we have received in the Home Office, letters from the parents of a violated child who has gone through the most awful physical pain and, as hon. Members have said, who may suffer persistent mental trauma for many years, will know the pain and the consternation that they feel".--[ Official Report , 16 February 1990 ; Vol. 167, c. 608.]

We must pay regard to that.

What kind of message are we sending to those who believe that the law lacks common sense by denying that a 12 or 13-year-old can commit rape ? Not acknowledging the seriousness of the crime is tantamount to condoning it. Those responsible may be free to live their lives never understanding the true ramifications of their ghastly crime. Society can no longer afford to set that example. Rape is rape. It is not sexual assault but the most vicious form of degradation known to mankind.

I contacted the Lancashire constabulary to find out how many cases had occurred in my area. The constabulary's figures showed that, in 1992, there were 25 cases of sexual offences committed by males ages 14 or under, two at the age of nine, two at the age of 11, five at the age of 12 and four at the age of 13. Those statistics are extremely important. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) has already said, the national figures in relation to the sexual offences about which we are concerned today and which we are trying to correct are quite ghastly.

I have several reflections on how we can give the crime the full recognition in the eyes of the law that it deserves. As my hon. Friends the Members for Wyre Forest (Mr. Coombs), for Sutton and Cheam and for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman) have said, we are simply considering the conviction and not the punishment that must follow the conviction. I hope that hon. Members will regard the Bill as a paving measure along the road to something which must

follow--punishment for those convicted of rape.

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Under our current legal system, someone under the age of 14 convicted of any crime other than murder cannot be dealt with effectively by the courts. When the Bill reaches the statute book, as I sincerely hope it will, it will still not enable the courts to award harsher punishments than are available now for the lesser offence of sexual assault.

I was comforted by the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow about counselling and how the social services can take some offenders into care and secure accommodation. That must be right. However, I look forward to the day when we have legislation to allow the courts to punish properly those who are convicted of rape, irrespective of age. That must be absolutely right.

At the moment, section 53 does not allow the courts to do that and that must be changed as soon as possible. I am aware that the House is clogged with legislation at the moment, but time must be found soon to allow the House to discuss that important legislation which needs to come before the House.

There are wider issues involved in the debate. There is no doubt that the youth of today are maturing faster than at any time in the past. That has been brought about by social pressures and expectations which perhaps did not exist 40 or 50 years ago. Therefore, the Bill must not be seen in splendid isolation. There must be far more parental guidance in future. I have great reservations about the break-up of the moral fabric of many households. I am concerned about the fact that there are far more family break-ups and more single parents today. However, that does not absolve parents from their responsibility to their children. They should give them as much guidance as possible in all manner of things.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, I recognise the impact of television in the home. Television is all pervasive. When we switch it on, we can see all manner of things at all times, particularly now that we have satellite television. I am delighted that the Government have acted against Red Hot Television and that they have been successful so far.

We must also bear in mind that videos are available in the home. They also have an impact on people of all ages. Part of the problem is that, in houses where there is no moral guidance for youngsters of 10, 11 or 12 years of age, they can switch on a television set and can see shocking pictures. If moral guidance from parents is lacking, what is a 10, 11 or 12 -year-old to make of what he or she sees on the television? Action must be taken quickly to ensure that we clean up many of the programmes which are transmitted.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman is pushing his luck. May we now return to the substance of the Bill?

Mr. Evans : We are saying that people under the age of 14 are capable of rape, and I have been referring to the moral guidance that such people require. I have dealt with the home and I am extremely grateful for the latitude that you have shown, Madam Deputy Speaker. I believe that it is important that those who are capable of committing the act of rape should receive guidance in the form of sex education in schools. I was therefore delighted to learn that the new draft circular has been

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published and sent to schools pointing out that sex education should be taught with a moral framework in relation to family guidance. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) made that point.

I believe that schools have a role to play to ensure that we do not send our youngsters on to the streets where they lack moral guidance from their families--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The same strictures apply now as applied a moment ago. If we are talking about the education system, surely the capacity to deal with the subject in hand is an important mark of educational attainment.

Mr. Evans : I am obviously guided by you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In supporting the Bill, I welcome the fact that it will receive its Third Reading and will, I hope, reach the statute book very soon. My constituents are concerned about all forms of crime, whether it be crime to property or to persons. They want the courts to be given the power properly to convict someone between the ages of 10 and 14 who has committed rape for the crime that person has committed and not for a lesser offence. In the not-too- distant future, legislation will, I hope, be introduced to allow the courts to punish properly people who have been convicted of that terrible crime.

12.16 pm

Mr. Harry Greenway : I will be brief-- .

Mr. Michael : I should think so.

Mr. Greenway : I do not think that that kind of remark is called for. It does not help the House to address an extremely serious matter. I wonder whether the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) really cares about the issue at all. He seems to want to dismiss any discussion of the subject for whatever reason.

Mr. Michael : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Greenway : No, I will not. I do not believe that sedentary interventions of that kind are called for. However, you have given a ruling on that, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will not pursue the matter.

I have been present in the Chamber throughout the Third Reading debate--

Mr. McCartney : The hon. Gentleman was not here earlier.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I do not wish to reprimand the hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney) unduly. However, I have already said that I deplore seated interventions. I do not expect to have any more, particularly from the Front Benches.

Mr. Greenway : Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I explained why I was not present earlier. I will be speedy as I recognise the importance of the next Bill to come before the House. However, the Bill that we are considering now could not be more important at a time when there is serious violence, some of which is sexual, among young people.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Hayes) on introducing the Bill. It is good that we have been able to discuss it this morning. It sets before the nation a very important issue. re is a chance that the Bill could lead to a lower age of consent than 16. If my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow considers that, he might understand how I reach that conclusion. If he does not, I could discuss it with him some time.

I believe that lowering the age of consent would be regrettable. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will bear that in mind as he considers the ramifications of the Bill when it becomes an Act. The criminal law for rape will be applied to those under 14 as a result of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow rightly said that, to be convicted, a boy will need to have understood that what he did was seriously wrong. It is sad that there are boys who do not understand that the sexual offence of rape is rape when they commit it. Of course, that is another matter. Any court or body that deals with such an individual will take careful account of the mental development of the child. That important matter is covered in the Bill.

The Bill will have a serious impact on schools, and that must be welcomed. That aspect has been mentioned and I will develop it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) said, a large number of children of all ages, including young children, watch explicit sex on television and, as a result, feel moved to try it. Children are under peer pressure at school and feel that they need to succeed, and that may lead to boys being forceful with girls, or even young female teachers. There have been sexual assaults and worse on young teachers. Young children are driven to that by what they see on television and peer group pressure. We need to take careful account of that in law, because children below the age of 14 are affected. Family doctors or doctors dealing with schools know that children are maturing much earlier. I heard only this week of an 11-year-old boy who is pronounced to have the physical maturity of a fully grown man, although he lacks the mental maturity of a man. He was described as having strong sexual impulses and urges. He has had to be disciplined at school for pulling up girls' skirts and attacking them physically in some way. There has been a danger of his doing more than simply pulling up dresses--he was seen to pull down a girl's pants. That is seriously bad behaviour. In the school involved, it was certainly thought that the boy was likely to be worked up to the point of wanting to have sexual intercourse with the girl involved, because it had happened on a number of occasions with the same girl. That girl will be more protected as a result of the Bill and its provisions, and that is extremely important.

It is more serious to say that boys aged 14 and under can have sexual passions for teachers, rather than simply for other girls. They can attack female teachers in the same way as the boy whom I described attacked a girl of his own age. The matter is becoming more serious in some schools in which discipline has declined. To the Government's credit, they are tackling that sort of indiscipline. The matter needs to be addressed, and my hon. Friend's Bill will help greatly.

The age of puberty is unquestionably coming down all the time--happily, in one sense, because children are better fed and have better welfare. They grow more quickly and they grow bigger and stronger. However, the mental maturity of children is not keeping pace with the more rapid physical maturity that I have described. That is a problem, because children under the age of 14 rarely have

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the maturity to control the strong sexual urges that I have described. They need to control those urges. That applies to children not only in schools but in youth clubs and elsewhere.

Children under the age of 14--I was about to use the word extraordinary, but it is not--have a big sense of adventure. I hope that hon. Members will not think that I am reducing a serious matter to banality when I use that term. For boys who talk together and get together, it can be a great adventure to seek to have sex with girls of the same age, or girls who are older or younger. In some circumstances, boys can aid and abet each other. That sense of adventure needs to be taken into account, because it is, by definition, an irresponsible attitude on the part of the boys involved.

At the same time, boys under 14 are vulnerable to the sort of peer group pressures that I have described. In all schools, they must be told about the implications of the Bill. The knowledge that they will be liable under criminal law--as they will be--will certainly be a counter-pressure to the adventures and a support to those who are vulnerable to giving way to pressure to behave irresponsibly. Children under 14 need to be protected from themselves. The Bill will assist in that process, and it must be welcomed.

12.26 pm

Mr. Wells : I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) when he described rape as the most vicious form of degradation known to mankind. It is second only to murder in the hierarchy of crimes of which mankind is capable. What is more, it leaves a damaged person--a girl or woman who must live with an appalling and vicious attack. Psychologically, it is difficult for them to recover from such attacks and enjoy normal sexual relations, as they are entitled to do.

Rape is an abhorrent crime about which we are all concerned. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Hayes) on sharing my concern about that appalling crime, even though it is committed by boys under the age of 14. For that reason, I congratulate him on introducing the Bill.

I sympathise with my hon. Friends the Members for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman) and for Wyre Forest (Mr. Coombs), in particular, and also with my hon. Friends the Members for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland), for Ribble Valley and for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) who said that the Bill will do nothing to address the increasing incidence of this crime. If my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow will forgive me, I believe that this is a case of fools rushing in where angels fear to tread.

The Bill deals with a crime with which it is difficult to come to terms socially and difficult to deal with in a court of law. It is also difficult to deal with in terms of the punishment given. How does one change such behaviour? Does one simply send a young boy to a detention centre, where he will learn about other forms of vicious crime and, in some cases, how to commit rape even more viciously? My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham referred to the celebrated case in Wales involving a 15 year-old boy, who was brought before the courts. The sentence he was given was thought to be inadequate and, on appeal, it was increased. What has been the effect on the victim and the boy of having that matter brought before the court in the first place, blazoning it acrosss the national press and then

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increasing the punishment meted out to that boy? It certainly increased the humiliation and degradation experienced by the girl. We are totally incompetent in our attempts to deal with this matter either through the law or social services. That incompetence is even revealed in our understanding of how to stop such behaviour and the provision of proper treatment for it. That is why the Bill should not have been introduced separately from a proper review of the way in which society, the law and the corrective services deal with the offence.

My hon. Friends who are lawyers and my hon. Friend the Minister, who is advised by lawyers, tell me that the Bill deals only with the issue of rape. It gets over a hurdle, because, under current criminal law, we cannot accuse a 14-year-old boy or a younger one of rape, as he is considered incapable of sexual intercourse. That may be the narrow legal interpretation, but a problem arises because it is a criminal offence to have sexual intercourse below the age of 16. Under the current law as I understand it, one cannot bring a criminal charge against a boy below the age of 14 for having unlawful sex below the age of 16, because he is deemed incapable of having sexual intercourse. As a result of the Bill, that will no longer be so. A boy under the age of 14 could be brought before the courts for having unlawful sex below the age of 16 and even below the age of 14. That is my understanding of the Bill, but its other effects are probably hidden from the House as we rush it onto the statute book.

Mr. Hayes : It is currently against the law for people under the age of 16 to have sex. Until the Bill is passed, it is not presumed that a person under the age of 16 has the capacity for intercourse, full penetration. In the highly unlikely event of a prosecution being brought under the current law, a person under the age of 14, who has had full penetrative sex, being presumed incapable of that act under existing law, would be charged with indecent assault. I accept that such a situation is highly unlikely, but, in theory, that person would still be charged with a criminal offence. The Bill, therefore, does not criminalise anyone ; it deals with the charge, nothing more.

Mr. Wells : As a layman, I am grateful for that explanation from my hon. Friend, who is learned because he is a lawyer. I am not sure whether that is the effect of the law, however, although I must accept his advice and that of the Minister that that is the case. I hope that it is ; if it is not, it will result in many youngsters who participate in sexual activities being brought before the courts of this country. That is not the right way to deal with such matters, as I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow agrees-- [Interruption.]

I shall bring my remarks to a close as I can hear sedentary interruptions from the Opposition spokesmen and I do not wish to delay the House. The Bill should have been produced in the context of the problem of under-age rape and sexual offences, and provided for the sensible treatment of those who commit them to enable them to grow up as responsible humans who respect others and are capable of proper and enjoyable sex in a loving and affectionate relationship.

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12.37 pm

Mr. Jack : We have had an interesting and extensive debate on many of the issues covered by the Bill. I am pleased that the Bill has reached Third Reading in an unamended form, for which we should pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Hayes). I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing the Bill and steering it through its various stages through the House. Nothing in the House is ever easy or straightforward, as today's debate has clearly illustrated.

The Government fully support the Bill, which corrects a long-standing absurdity in the law. On a note of apology, I wish that the Government had had time in their legislative timetable to introduce the Bill, but, sadly, they were unable to do so. I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow used his time as a private Member to introduce the legislation. Although there have been some interesting criticisms of the Bill, the general thrust of today's debate has been in support of the measure.

It is worth recording how the Bill came to be introduced, and to address one or two of the issues raised in the debate. When the subject was raised in the context of a previous private Member's Bill, it was debated thoroughly, in the round, with a number of other issues relating to sexual offences. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Randall), who led for the Opposition, said : "Such a scandalous situation should not exist in modern law."--[ Official Report, 16 February 1990 ; Vol. 167, c. 599.]

Those were wise and correct words, and have clearly influenced the proposition of my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow.

Both those views were supported by the Home Office Criminal Law Revision Committee, which considered the matter in considerable depth. It stated clearly :

"Under the present law a boy under 14 cannot be convicted of rape or any other offence of vaginal or anal intercourse because he is conclusively presumed at common law incapable of sexual intercourse. In paragraph 27 of our working paper we discussed the common law presumption and provisionally concluded that it should be abolished. All who commented on the issue agreed with us. Accordingly we now recommend that presumption be abolished."

That was a clear, unequivocal and ringing endorsement for the measures that lie at the centre of the unamended Bill.

If hon. Members have any doubt that the issue was not considered in considerable depth, they should look at paragraph 27 of the report, which states :

"If that recommendation"--

to which I referred--

"was accepted, the prosecution would, of course, have to prove as in all cases involving defendants under 14 that the boy knew that he was doing wrong."

My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman) mentioned that issue. He was talking about differentials of proof in terms of adult crime where, at present, the alternative might be indecent assault. Clearly, with all criminal charges different levels of proof have to be achieved. Those levels are to protect those accused of crime who may have evidence to offer to the contrary. Now, the same different sorts of proof are introduced by this proposal. Several hon. Members supporting the Bill talked about punishment and how these sexual crimes are dealt with. I repeat what I said in the Standing Committee : we understand these concerns. My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) spoke with passion about the seriousness and nastiness of rape--he was right to use

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such language. Equally, however, we have taken up the point made by other hon. Members and we are looking in the round at the scope and coverage of section 53 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. We understand the anxieties about the restrictions that it imposes on the courts, particularly as to the uses of custody. These matters take time to consider, but we are looking carefully at them. What are the alternatives ? My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Wells) came near to teasing out some of the important issues that lie behind this subject. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) pertinently commented on the backgrounds from which young men accused of this nasty crime may come. She mentioned that they may themselves have been sexually or physically abused.

I should like to offer the House a reassurance. The fact that the Bill will enable a person to be charged with what he has actually done--raping someone--must mean a great deal to the victim of the offence. Under current law, the courts will be able to award a sentence of supervision, which is not an easy option. It goes to the very heart of offending behaviour. It matters not whether a person is dealt with in the community or by means of custody--the problem remains : we need to get to the reasons why he committed the act of rape, with which this measure deals. Supervision, day in day out--it can be as frequent as necessary--goes, as I say, to the heart of sexual behaviour. I have seen work in the probation service that shows what can be done to turn people away from offending behaviour.

Mr. Harry Greenway : Is my hon. Friend saying that the very fact that the boy concerned may be found guilty of an offence will have a dramatic effect on the behaviour of other boys? They must be educated to know that they can be brought to book if they commit sexual offences of the kind that the Bill would prohibit.

Mr. Jack : My hon. Friend underlines my point. A proper charge can now be brought for what someone has done, and it is a serious charge. The measure will also focus the minds of those who will be responsible for the punishment of the offender and, and even under existing law, that means that the right punishment can be devised for the crime. At least the victim, who must never be forgotten, will know that a person has been convicted of an offence. Indecent assault is a lesser charge--not the right charge for a crime as serious as rape.

Mr. Cohen : I hear what the Minister says about the Government supporting the Bill. Many hon. Members support it, too, but he must acknowledge that it deals with only one aspect of the law governing rape. That law needs reform right across the board, as the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Wells) has said. Have the Government any plans to examine all the laws covering rape, including the victim compensation aspects?

Mr. Jack : I do not want to trespass beyond the boundaries of what we are discussing today. The hon. Gentleman will know of my personal commitment to, and interest in, matters connected with domestic violence, which can include rape. There is much good work to be done on that. He will also know of recent Court of Appeal

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judgments that deal with rape in the context of marriage. Doubtless there is more work to be done, and I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman's point.

Before I was interrupted, I was about to pick up a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mr. Coombs). He spoke about psychological damage to victims. The word "psychological" was appropriate and fits the point that I made about the nature of the supervision order and what can be done about offending behaviour. My hon. Friend was right to mention that and I look forward to his wider comments on juvenile crime in his Adjournment debate.

I covered the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham about differential evidence. What he said emphasises the importance of this narrow Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley takes a special interest in these matters and I thank him for his contribution.

The Bill is narrowly drawn, but it is important. It deals with a serious crime and enables the proper charge to be brought. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam said, the offence is not imaginary but real. People are presently committing rape and, if they are below the age of 14, they can be charged only with indecent assault. The Bill deals with that matter and I whole-heartedly endorse it.

12.45 pm

Mr. Michael : I congratulate the hon. Member for Harlow (Mr. Hayes) on doing what the Government should have done. In view of the wide nature of the debate, we should remind ourselves that the Bill simply abolishes the nonsensical presumption of the criminal law that a boy under the age of 14 cannot be capable of sexual intercourse. That is the simple issue and it is surprising that there has been such a wide-ranging debate.

The Minister was generous enough to acknowledge that the Government should have undertaken this measure. There was an opportunity to do that in this year's Criminal Justice Bill. Many issues contained in current private Member's Bills could have been dealt with in that Bill, thus saving the time of the House. The Bill is important and useful and it is no fault of its promoter, the hon. Member for Harlow, that in some ways the debate has been widened and misused. It must have been frustrating for the hon. Gentleman to have to reduce his contribution because, undoubtedly, he would have liked to expand on knowledge of the subject.

I say to the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), or I would if he were still in the Chamber, that it may be in order but it harms the reputation of the House for hon. Members to wander in halfway through the morning and expect to be able to speak at length. Conservative Members widened the debate into all sorts of matters which, although important, are not germane to the Bill. I especially noted those hon. Members who sought to widen it into juvenile justice generally by using the typical Conservative approach, which is to talk tough, shout loudly and do nothing.

Crime figures published this week show that the Government have presided over an increase in crime of well over 120 per cent. In view of that, I am surprised at the cheek of Conservative Members in trying to widen the debate. However, there will be all-party support if they are serious and if next week they support such measures as the

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Bail (Amendment) Bill and the Criminal Justice (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Warwickshire, North (Mr. O'Brien).

If Conservative Members are serious, they will press the Government for a speed-up in the criminal justice system, especially in relation to young people, and for an increase in the resources for prevention and earlier intervention. We are paying a sort of crime tax for the Government's failure in those respects. I mention them because they have been raised in the debate, although they seem to fall outside the scope of the Bill. The debate contained about 30 minutes of illumination from each side, but otherwise swallowed time that the House could have used to debate the Medicines Information Bill. Hon. Members who have spoken at length will have to answer to their consciences and to the British people for perpetuating secrecy in the pharmaceutical industry. They know what they have done in denying protection to the British public in respect of drugs and medicines. They have done that with the collusion, if not the encouragement, of the Government Whips.

The Bill does not create perfection in law, but Labour has supported the Bill from the beginning because it puts right one specific anomaly in the law. We have not let it pass without thought, but have given the Bill the consideration that its serious subject matter deserves--although we have not sought to waste the time of the House, having recognised that the Bill encapsulates simple common sense, which I commend to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

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Medicines Information Bill

As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

New Clause 3

Restrictions on the provision of information

.--(1) Where any information is made available to any person or organisation under this Act, that person or organisation must not disclose that information without the written consent of the licensing authority.

(2) A person who without reasonable excuse contravenes, or causes or allows the contravention of, subsection (1) above shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

(3) Section 124 of the 1968 Act shall apply in relation to an offence under this section as it applies in relation to an offence under that Act.

(4) Where a person or organisation requests consent under subsection (1) above the licensing authority may--

(a) make a reasonable charge, not exceeding the cost of determining the request ;

(b) give consent on such terms as the authority consider appropriate.'.-- [Mr. Waterson.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

12.50 pm

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