---

Column 1095

Bill is to flounder, and abstain on new clause 14. We would then await the Government's proposals and opt for the principle of regulated liberalisation, as my own union, the GMB, and the Shopping Hours Reform Council are urging us to do.

Rev. Ian Paisley : I have listened to the debate with great interest. I shall first refer to the Minister's response--if one can call it a response. The people of this country will be alarmed that the Government were unable to make an unequivocal statement to the effect that those who have to work on Sundays will be protected by safeguards if deregulation is introduced. The Minister was silent when pressure was placed on him by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) and he was asked for a clear statement. We must take note of his reluctance. Surely the Government should uphold the principle that those people who do not wish to work on Sunday due to their convictions are given adequate protection. Such protection has not been afforded them by the shops thast which gives 50 per cent. discounts to all its workers--but that discount has been withdrawn from those who do not work on Sunday. If that is not discrimination and intimidation I do not know what is.

The Minister must make it clear where the Government stand on this issue. He says that we will vote on three separate matters, but he has not told the House whether we will be allowed a proper vote. Which vote will be taken first? Will the other two issues then fall? The Minister has also told us that we will be given explanations of the reasons for the various proposals. Will he allow those opposed to Sunday opening to explain their position? Will he ask people who believe in partial opening to submit an explanation of their position? He is certainly quite capable of writing out his own explanation. What standing will these various explanations be given? I believe that the Government are conniving at getting rid of all Sunday regulation. They want another Christmas, with all the large shops open. They will say that everyone wants that. They are putting off the day, however, because that suits them--the Government want as much time as possible.

Mr. Alton : The Minister has still not made it clear to us--perhaps he will take the opportunity to intervene on the hon.

Gentleman--whether the Government will introduce a Bill in the Queen's Speech in the autumn. He said only that they intend to introduce a Bill, but he did not specificically mention the Queen's Speech.

Rev. Ian Paisley : I thought that I heard the Minister say something about the Queen's Speech, but I shall allow him to intervene.

Mr. Peter Lloyd : We shall introduce a Bill in the autumn. Most Bills introduced in the autumn are listed in the Queen's Speech. I do not write that speech, but I can say that the Government have decided that there will be such a Bill.

Mr. Skinner : Still a bit vague.

Rev. Ian Paisley : We will see how the Government proceed, but we are certainly not hearing any firm

---

Column 1096

commitment from the Government about the rights of workers and how they will be protected. That is the foundation on which they should build.

If the Government deregulate Sunday, will they then consider the day the same as any other working day? Do they believe that people who work on Sunday should be paid the same rate as they would be on another day? We need to know the Government's attitude.

I do not know whether any hon. Member lives beside one of these supermarkets, but many of my constituents do. The supermarkets are often built in areas where people live in their rows of houses. We have had a great deal of representation from them about the troubles with traffic, trolleys and congestion. Now Sunday will go the same way ; but people should be allowed a breather, one day when they can escape traffic congestion and not be bothered by trolleys and the hustle and bustle of people shopping.

I listened with amazement to the hon. Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall), who said that the Bill's supporters want to close shops. They want nothing of the kind. They want to close them on a Sunday, that is all. Anyone listening to the hon. Gentleman would have thought that the Bill's sponsors are trying to close down shops for ever. Not so ; if people want to shop in them, they can certainly go on doing so. The hon. Gentleman spoke as though he were pleading for ordinary working people, but ordinary working people, the elderly and those who are busy cannot go to the supermarkets. The local independent shops supply them.

I draw attention to the findings of a Royal Town Planning Institute working party. ln its paper, it said :

"Those who are disadvantaged by reason of poverty, who do not have access to a car, and who therefore are dependent on existing local and neighbourhood shops cannot easily take advantage of the facilities of the distant superstore. There is widespread concern that these disadvantaged consumers will increasingly suffer from double deprivation caused by lack of access to the advantageous, convenient and efficient forms of retailing combined with dependence on deteriorating quality, prices and choice in neighbourhood shops."

Mr. John Marshall : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Rev. Ian Paisley : No, I will not give way because time is short and others may wish to take part.

Independent local shops are important to the very fabric of society and they form a focus for the community. They are not impersonal like the big stores. That is why it is important that we get our priorities right. I welcome the fact that today we can vote on the three main issues. Now is the time to do that. It has been put off for far too long. Let us have it today.

If people did not think it worth while turning up for the debate today, that is their fault. Hon. Members may have been discouraged from attending, but if those who want a free vote to sort our Sunday trading in a complete sweep do not have their followers here, that is their business. We have to vote today. That is the job that we are called to do. If we do not make ourselves acquainted with the business of the House, that is our business. We have to vote on the issue and show what the House of Commons wants. I am glad that, in the previous vote, hon. Members representing Ulster pointed the way.

Mr. Don Dixon (Jarrow) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now putQuestion put, That the Question be now put :--

The House divided : Ayes 119, Noes 13.

---

Column 1097

Division No. 268] [1.27 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry

Barron, Kevin

Beggs, Roy

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Benton, Joe

Berry, Dr. Roger

Body, Sir Richard

Booth, Hartley

Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Burden, Richard

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Cann, Jamie

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Coffey, Ann

Cohen, Harry

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Corbett, Robin

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cormack, Patrick

Corston, Ms Jean

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Dafis, Cynog

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)

Denham, John

Dixon, Don

Dover, Den

Dowd, Jim

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Eastham, Ken

Etherington, Bill

Fatchett, Derek

Fisher, Mark

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Fraser, John

Gerrard, Neil

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Hain, Peter

Hall, Mike

Hoey, Kate

Hoyle, Doug

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Ingram, Adam

Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)

Jessel, Toby

Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Keen, Alan

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Livingstone, Ken

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Lord, Michael

Lynne, Ms Liz

Macdonald, Calum

McMaster, Gordon

McWilliam, John

Madden, Max

Meale, Alan

Michael, Alun

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Moate, Sir Roger

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Morgan, Rhodri

Morley, Elliot

Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)

Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Mudie, George

Mullin, Chris

Murphy, Paul

O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)

Olner, William

Paisley, Rev Ian

Pawsey, James

Pendry, Tom

Pickthall, Colin

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Purchase, Ken

Quin, Ms Joyce

Raynsford, Nick

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Rogers, Allan

Rowlands, Ted

Ruddock, Joan

Sedgemore, Brian

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Short, Clare

Sims, Roger

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Soley, Clive

Spearing, Nigel

Trimble, David

Turner, Dennis

Vaz, Keith

Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

Wicks, Malcolm

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)

Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)

Winnick, David

Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

Wise, Audrey

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett and

Mr. John Spellar.

NOES

Ashby, David

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Devlin, Tim

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Gardiner, Sir George

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Rathbone, Tim

Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)

Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela

Shaw, David (Dover)

Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)

Whittingdale, John

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. John Marshall and

Mr. Michael Fabricant.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Question put accordingly, That the clause be read a Second time : --

---