House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 May 1993

Mr. Don Dixon (Jarrow) : I would not go that far.

Mr. Cryer : My hon. Friend is raising qualifications and reservations. I have plenty of those, but Ministers are, to some extent, accountable to the House.

I can recall when a rumour went round that the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) was to announce an increase in council rents. Hon. Members exercised a mediaeval right to declare when Parliament should be closed and blocked the Bar of the House. Many said that that was a terrible thing to do, but the left, the right and the centre of the Labour party--the broad church in

operation--stood there, preventing Black Rod from getting through. Lo and behold, after a lot of consultation and a lot of raised eyebrows, the right hon. Member for Henley made his statement about council rents. That was accountability. That was democracy in action. It might have been a bit rough and tumble, but it worked.

I would not give Ministers the right to change primary legislation. All too often, the Government introduce what are called Henry VIII clauses because he cut off the heads of his wives and Ministers are given the opportunity to cut off parts of Acts.

I do not think that such powers should be handed to Ministers, so I certainly do not think that an outside body should be given the power to remove sections of legislation that this House has considered and which imposes conditions that we think are reasonable. If we decide to pass legislation on a vote, we should not put in the hands of an outside body the power to remove sections of it.

Column 111

I am in favour of public bodies, but the truth is that canal users mistrust British Waterways. I have a letter that has been passed to me by another hon. Member. It comes from a canal enthusiast and is dated 9 November 1992. It states :

"As I write to you on Monday 9th November 1992, we record the closure of the upper reaches of the Ridgeacre Canal in the West Bromwich part of the Birmingham Canal Navigations to which our local canal belongs. This is a particularly sad day for the waterways enthusiasts and acts as a good example of the neglect of our canals and the lack of foresight shown by British Waterways making a complete mockery of their Waterways Charter."

I have other examples. I was recently told about the problems of a public house which is reached by a footbridge over the Llangollen canal. British Waterways, no doubt under pressure from the Government's failure to provide sufficient money to maintain a centuries-old system of waterways, decided that the annual charge for access to that public house over the canal should be increased from about £150 to £10,000. I now understand that, because of publicity, the charge has been reduced. However, when such a charge is made arbitrarily, it induces confusion and concern.

Sir Donald Thompson (Calder Valley) : I am listening to the hon. Gentleman with some attention. Will he consider the contrary case, which is that the Government have just made available part of the derelect land grant for the reopening of canals? Does not that in some way balance the examples that he is giving?

Mr. Cryer : No. We are not talking about what the Government have done. If they are making available some derelict land clearance grant, that is all well and good. Of course, they are cutting a wide range of grants to local authorities. My point is that the Government are accountable to the House. If we give powers to a body such as British Waterways, which acts entirely as an authority on its own account, that accountability is then out of our reach. We can argue and ask questions about derelict land clearance grant ; we cannot ask questions of the chairman of British Waterways--

Mr. Robert B. Jones rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put :

The House divided : Ayes 129, Noes 30.

Division No. 272] [9.58 pm

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Baldry, Tony

Bates, Michael

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bowis, John

Brandreth, Gyles

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Peter

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Chapman, Sydney

Clappison, James

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Devlin, Tim

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Column 112

Dykes, Hugh

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Freeman, Roger

Gallie, Phil

Gillan, Cheryl

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Grylls, Sir Michael

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hanley, Jeremy

Hannam, Sir John

Harris, David

Heald, Oliver

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

Hill, James (Southampton Test)

Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)

King, Rt Hon Tom

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Legg, Barry

Leigh, Edward

Lidington, David

Lightbown, David

Luff, Peter

MacKay, Andrew

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Maitland, Lady Olga

Mans, Keith

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Mates, Michael

Merchant, Piers

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Monro, Sir Hector

Neubert, Sir Michael

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Norris, Steve

Page, Richard

Patnick, Irvine

Porter, David (Waveney)

Richards, Rod

Riddick, Graham

Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)

Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)

Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

Shaw, David (Dover)

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Spink, Dr Robert

Spring, Richard

Sproat, Iain

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Stephen, Michael

Streeter, Gary

Sweeney, Walter

Taylor, John M. (Solihull)

Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)

Thomason, Roy

Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Thornton, Sir Malcolm

Thurnham, Peter

Tredinnick, David

Trend, Michael

Twinn, Dr Ian

Walden, George

Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

Waller, Gary

Waterson, Nigel

Whittingdale, John

Widdecombe, Ann

Willetts, David

Wood, Timothy

Yeo, Tim

Tellers for the Ayes :

Sir Anthony Durant and

Mr. Alan Duncan.

NOES

Ainger, Nick

Bennett, Andrew F.

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Dixon, Don

Etherington, Bill

Fatchett, Derek

Flynn, Paul

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Hanson, David

Harvey, Nick

Hinchliffe, David

Johnston, Sir Russell

Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)

Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

Kilfoyle, Peter

Lewis, Terry

Lynne, Ms Liz

McCartney, Ian

Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)

Meale, Alan

Michael, Alun

Miller, Andrew

Morgan, Rhodri

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Rowlands, Ted

Skinner, Dennis

Spearing, Nigel

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Bob Cryer and

Mr. Harry Barnes.

Question accordingly agreed to .

Question put accordingly , That the Bill be now read a Second time :--

The House divided : Ayes 126, Noes 27.

Division No. 273] [10.10 pm