House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 May 1993

Mr. Nigel Evans : Is it not clear from what my hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Mrs. Lait) have said that we are talking about a sustainable future for all post offices--opening them up to allow them to provide more services for the elderly and others in our villages and towns? The Labour party wants to fossilise the Post Office and make its running costs burdensome to the very people we want to help.

Mrs. Knight : My hon. Friend makes the point well. We seek to provide even more valuable services for the community, so that more people will go to the post offices, thus allowing a diversification of business so that they can meet the changing requirements of the people whom they serve.

Mr. Hain : I welcome the hon. Lady's contribution, but the person responsible for blocking the ability of local post offices to provide that additional range of services is the Under-Secretary of State for Technology. The Government should change their policy. In some local village post offices, such as that in my home village of Resolven, about 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. of business--if not more--comes from benefits. If that were taken away, or even a slice of it, they would be forced to close.

Mrs. Knight : I am trying to make it clear that I seek to enhance the role of post offices, not limit it to the traditional duties which they have undertaken. I am sure that the Minister will deal admirably with that topic when he winds up the debate.

Mr. Connarty : Does the hon. Lady not accept that those are the policies in the Labour party manifesto, which Conservative Ministers have refused for years to adopt? They refused to adopt those policies when my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) suggested them in a recent Adjournment debate.

Mrs. Knight : The Labour party made no mention whatever in its manifesto of maintaining the viability of the sub-post office network. In this debate, too, the Labour party has missed all its opportunities to support post offices and to say how they should develop and provide more services to their local communities. I am sorry that the Labour party has missed those opportunities. My third suggestion is the result of a conversation with the excellent manager of the sub-post office at Ockbrook,

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in my constituency, who told me about the various charges that are made when people pay water, gas and electricity bills. Apparently people can pay their water bill at the post office in cash or by cheque at a cost of 15p--less than the cost of a stamp to send a cheque to the company.

However, anyone who wishes to pay his gas or electricity bill at the post office can do so only in cash, at a cost of 80p. The water authority has provided an excellent service for people who wish to pay their bills in that way, and I am urging my local gas and electricity companies to do a similar deal, so that their bills can be paid in the same way through the local post office. I am sure that my hon. Friends, too, will urge their local electricity, gas and water companies to make the same arrangments as the water company in my constituency.

I understand that some of the matters that I have raised are not within the jurisdiction either of the Secretary of State for Social Security or of the Under-Secretary of State for Technology, but I hope that they will consider carefully the matters for which they are responsible, so that we can maintain the valuable service to the local community, and our post offices can be fostered and allowed to develop in a way that benefits the changing society in which we all live.

6.21 pm

Mr. William McKelvey (Kilmarnock and Loudon) : I am glad that the debate is taking place and I congratulate Opposition Front-Bench Members on selecting the subject. Whatever our views are, whatever we may say, and whatever the Government may say about the rights and wrongs and the motives involved--whether the forms were badly designed either deliberately or carelessly, whether there was any intention of hoodwinking old-age pensioners, or whether the Government attempted to protect them--pensioners and those who look after their interests will ensure that what is said in the debate is dispatched to the post offices and sub-post offices so that people can chat among themselves and make up their own minds. That is the essence of a democratic structure.

When that has happened it will be interesting to find our whether we receive another load of letters from pensioners expressing their views about whether the debate was necessary and about what we may have unmasked or uncovered. Like most hon. Members, I have received letters and petitions directly from old-age pensioners in my constituency--280 of them, in fact. They are not mass-printed petitions that people can easily sign ; most of them are handwritten letters from people who are not terrified but who are genuinely and honestly concerned.

They are articulate, too. We do our pensioners a disservice if we think that they cannot articulate their own case or make up their own minds, or assess whether there is threat to their sub-post offices.

Ms Janet Anderson (Rossendale and Darwen) : May I draw my hon. Friend's attention to a survey done in my constituency by the Blackburn and district branch of Age Concern? It was initiated by Councillor Kevin Durkin and was published today in the Lancashire Evening Telegraph. Of the 150 pensioners interviewed, 93 per cent. received their pensions in cash at their post office and none of them said that he or she wanted to change to a different method

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of payment. Does my hon. Friend agree with one of the pensioners interviewed, who said that the Government's plan was the daftest idea since the poll tax?

Mr. McKelvey : I totally and unequivocally agree with those sentiments.

There are 19 sub-post offices in my constituency. That may not sound a lot, in view of the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger) has more than 80 in his constituency. The scale of the problem of closure will vary from one constituency to another. Perhaps I can best illustrate the problem by describing the village in which I live, outside Kilmarnock.

As one comes into the village there is a church, a small supermarket, a newsagent, a fish and chip shop, a Chinese carry-out shop, a masonic lodge and social club and a bowling club with a social club. We also have three pubs, another newsagent, a garage, a garage showroom and a resident Member of Parliament. What more could anybody want? That may not be the idyllic village scene depicted in the Hovis advertisement, but it is a viable village and at the moment we can sustain that viability and variety.

By the way, I missed out the bookie, but that was because his establishment is next door to a vacant shop which used to be the bank. When the banks in Kilmarnock started to close what they called their satellite stations in the villages, every village got up a petition and tried to persuade them to change their minds. But the banks said that because of economies of scale, because of the difficulties of the recession, and because robberies were taking place in the village banks, they had to withdraw the facilities. The withdrawal of banking facilities created difficulties for those who used bank accounts, even if their pensions were paid into the bank. Because people could no longer go into the banks to withdraw their money--or to deposit money, for that matter--they had to travel to Kilmarnock to do their banking if they did not have a post office account. That often meant that they then spent their money in Kilmarnock. The economy of Kilmarnock is not suffering because of that, but the viability of the village is and the whole community is beginning to suffer because of the lack of a bank. Even the bookmaker complained to me about that.

Mr. David Hanson (Delyn) : I wonder whether, when the Minister replies to the debate, he will define viability. I should like to know where my hon. Friend's post office and the 33 post offices in my constituency fit into the viable national network that has been mentioned. So far as I can see, it will not include the vast majority of the post offices in my constituency and probably not the post office in my hon. Friend's constituency, either.

Mr. McKelvey : The total income of the sub-post office in my village is derived from payments of benefits and from selling stamps and perhaps the odd birthday card. It has not diversified into haberdashery or anything else of that nature, nor is it licensed to sell spirits and cigarettes. All those facilities are already available in the village. The post office does not have to put a petrol pump outside and diversify into selling petrol, as post offices in some rural villages may do. I do not see how my post office can diversify into any areas, other than the sale of lottery tickets, without taking trade away from existing outlets in the village.

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Mr. Connarty : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. McKelvey : I am sorry, but I running out of time and I know that the Front-Bench spokesmen want to start winding up as soon as possible. If any hon. Member who has sat here throughout the debate has not yet had the opportunity to intervene, I would gladly let him or her in, but I shall not give way to anyone who has already spoken.

As I have said, I have received 280 personal letters from elderly people. I have chosen one of those letters to read to the House, not because it is terrifically articulate, but because it is typical of the representations that I have received and expresses an attitude that I completely understand. It was not written in panic, either. My constituent writes :

"As a pensioner I say Hands off the Sub Post Office.' We cannot afford bank charges or the inconvenience of banks. Also we cannot take our pensions in arrears or once a month because we simply could not afford to live. This is another nail in the coffin of freedom." Freedom of choice is the important thing. The letter concludes : "I and thousands of others demand the right as to how our pension is paid."

If Ministers tell us that the right of all pensioners and claimants to draw benefit at the post office will be protected, the debate will have done a tremendous service. We shall have gone some way at least to allaying the fears of pensioners about the threat that they face and the fears of those who work in sub-post offices about their future. I look forward to hearing from the Minister that he will safeguard the incomes of the sub-post offices and, more important, that pensioners will be able to continue, as of right, to draw their pensions as they wish to draw them.

6.30 pm

Mr. Jim Cousins (Newcastle upon Tyne, Central) : I congratulate the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) on his gracious and thoughtful references to his two predecessors. I am sure that their friends and the whole House will appreciate the content and the tone of his remarks. We look forward to hearing further from him in future. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald) on the debate that he initiated the other night and thank all the hon. Members who spoke in that debate, during which we heard some telling rebukes to the Government from the hon. Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark) about the quality of the forms about which we have heard so much today. On that occasion, the House was treated to the remarkable spectacle of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Corporate Affairs presenting himself in this context as the latest in a long line of caring liberals. I fear that the transformation is not complete, but we live in hope.

I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond), for Worsley (Mr. Lewis), for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Loyden) and for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Michie). I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudon (Mr. McKelvey). I am concerned lest my hon. Friend should decide to take up residence at the bookie's or in the masonic lodge, although I recognise that some of these matters are ordered differently north of the border. The Government's wish to switch payments of pensions and benefits to banks and building societies has been made crystal clear in today's debate. It is part of their planned

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intention and has been set out in the Secretary of State's speech today and in the Department's report to the House in the public expenditure statement last autumn.

I fear that it is also clear that the full facts of the matter have not been heard. Much has been made of a comparison of transaction costs--3p through banks and building societies and 44p through post offices. Will the Minister confirm, however, that half the pensions processed by post offices in Britain bear a direct handling charge to those post offices of less than 12p and that the comparisons that have been drawn tonight are wholly inaccurate?

May I also draw the attention of the House to the fact that, in addition to the transaction costs to the Government which have been made the subject of the comparisons, there are transaction costs to the people receiving pensions and benefits? It is crystal clear that, if payments are transferred to banks and building societies, hidden transaction costs will be borne by those who use those banks and building societies to process their pensions and benefit claims. That significant factor has not been brought into the equation. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) made the point clearly : what the Secretary of State said did not amount to a clear statement that a fairly and equally weighted choice will be given to future pension and benefits claimants. We have heard only that the existing, thoroughly rigged, choice may be withdrawn. The Government must give the assurance that pensioners will have a full and fair choice of payment methods and a guarantee that the advantages and disadvantages of each payment method will be fairly spelt out. It is simply not right that future pensioners--many of whom will not have bank accounts--should be confronted by forms telling them that banks have interest-bearing accounts without similarly pointing out that bank accounts can incur charges. The present comparison is not fair and it is not right to put it before pensioners and benefit claimants. The Secretary of State says that he believes that the issue is not of great significance, because sub-post offices are paid a flat rate fee. His remarks were published, although not in quotation marks, in today's edition of The Times and he made the point again during the debate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that that is a wholly misleading and untrue statement? It is simply not the case that sub-post offices are paid on a flat-rate basis. They are paid on the basis of transaction unit payments which vary according to the number of transactions that take place. It is true that, to secure the viability of some of the very small sub-post offices, a minimum payment is made, but that is entirely different from the flat-rate payment that the Secretary of State clearly stated was the basis of payment to sub-post offices. It is not.

I should be grateful to be informed, if the facts can be presented, what Ministers think that minimum payment is. I shall cheerfully give way so that they can inform the House what order of advantage is given to the barely 10 per cent. of post offices that receive it. I repeat that it is not a flat-rate payment but a minimum payment. I should be delighted to hear what the Government think that payment actually is. We look forward to enlightenment on that point, on which for the moment there is total silence.

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offices, which will be informed about the debate and which anxiously await its outcome, will certainly bear it in mind. The Post Office operates an internal cross-subsidy arrangement that is weighted in favour of the smaller post offices. That has been a feature of cross-subsidy within the Post Office's accounts since the Liberal Government of 1908. The future of the smallest 7,500 sub-post offices, which do only 6 per cent. of the total volume of the Post Office's pensions and benefits business, depends vitally upon that system of weighted payments.

It would be a tremendous advantage to those involved, many of whose businesses are in great difficulty because of the current difficult economic circumstances, to be given a clear statement from the Government tonight to the effect that that system of cross-subsidy, on which they and their predecessors have depended since 1908, will continue to be a feature of the Government's policy towards sub-post offices. If the Government cannot guarantee the continuation of that transaction unit cross-subsidy, they cannot secure the future of the network and all their assurances and manifesto promises about their guarantee of a universal service and network of post offices are unreal and worthless.

The 20,000 sub-post offices know that, and they are looking to the Government to clarify the point tonight. Without that cross-subsidy and system of weighted payments, the whole viability of the post office network will be brought into doubt.

It might suit the Government if the 5,000 small post officers referred to by the chief executive of the Post Office went out of existence. If the network was truncated in that way, it is possible that the Post Office Counters Ltd. network would be easier to sell off. However, the Government must recognise that an enormous amount of political good will, economic good will and social good will would be lost if that were to happen.

What does the universal service network, which the Government say that they have in their manifesto, promise? What does it mean? At the moment, 60 per cent. of urban and rural parishes contain a post office. Does the commitment to a universal service network mean that 60 per cent. of urban and rural parishes will continue to have the benefit of a sub-post office?

Ms Jean Corston (Bristol, East) : Does my hon. Friend agree that people believe that the threat is serious? That is evidenced by the fact that, in Bristol, 1,141 signatures were appended to a petition in three days last week in Redcliffe post office. Is not it significant that, while the majority of the people who signed that petition and who use that post office reside in my constituency, the post office itself is in the constituency of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the right hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Waldegrave)? There may be implications for the citizens charter in relation to the element of the freedom of choice.

Mr. Cousins : I confirm what my hon. Friend said and that experience is repeated around the country. However, I regret to say that, with longer experience of the House, my hon. Friend will find that turkeys do vote for Christmas and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster may be one of them.

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Forty-one per cent. of the business of the sub-post office network is accounted for by pension and benefits payments. The undermining of that financial commitment undermines the viability of the whole network.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North was right to be concerned about the position in Northern Ireland because half the business of sub-post offices in Northern Ireland comprises pension and benefits payments. That is the highest proportion in the United Kingdom. I hope that hon. Members from Northern Ireland will take these matters fully into account when they consider how to vote tonight and how to vote in the future when such matters are considered.

Much has been made of opening up the sub-post office network for other kinds of business. This is a Government of deregulation. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) can rest assured in the knowledge that none of us would have doubts about opening up the sub-post office network to wider commercial business and allocating it that task. However, we are waiting for the conclusion of the Government's review of the Post Office which has taken far too long and no proceedings of which have been reported back to the House or the other place.

Furthermore, the Department of Trade and Industry is capable of misunderstanding popular feeling. It misjudged the reaction to the closure of 31 pits and the sacking of 30,000 miners. I have bad news for the DTI tonight. Post office surveys indicate that the smallest 5,000 post offices employ 25,000 people. We have an issue before us--the viability of the smaller sub-post offices--which is as dramatic in its employment consequences as the closure of the coal mines. The post offices have been rocked by the recession, but their business has held up better than that of the banks and building societies to which the Government want to send the business. The reduction in the number of bank and building society branches has been proceeding far faster than the reduction in the number of sub-post offices. The post office network is larger, more robust and more resilient than the network of bank and building society branches. It would be wrong for the Government, through their decision about the method of pension and benefits payments, to rig the market in favour of the banks and building societies and against the interests of the post offices.

The Government do not appreciate the fact that when we talk about sub-post offices, we are talking about self-employed people. We are talking about people who run small businesses. The Government talk about privatising the Post Office. The fact is that the bulk of the counters network is privatised already. One thing that could be said with great advantage tonight is that the Government will withdraw their proposals to privatise the counters network. The Government could justify their U-turn readily by saying that it is already privatised. That is a wonderful get-out for the Government. The door is open and we would all welcome them going through it.

However, the Government have already today chosen to make war on the sub- post offices--[ Hon. Members :-- "Nonsense."] The remarks of Conservative Members carry a clear message. References have been made to Timex and to picket lines and the sub-post offices have been brought into that setting. That message will go out to the sub-post offices.

Like many of the people they serve, sub-post offices live from week to week. They are small businesses that provide

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a community service and they are trying to continue in the face of difficult economic circumstances. They will be looking to the results of this debate. From the reaction of the people they serve, they know that the people of this country value them and wish them to be protected. If the Government take any other course, they will rue the day that they set out on it.

6.47 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Technology (Mr. Edward Leigh) : If I may, I would like to begin by referring to the excellent maiden speech of the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel). The whole House enjoyed his speech, which was a classic of its type in its lyrical description of a constituency which the hon. Gentleman loves and where he lives. We on the Conservative Benches were very grateful for his very kind comments about Judith Chaplin and Sir Michael McNair-Wilson, who were obviously very valued colleagues of ours.

We welcome the hon. Member for Newbury to the House. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) said, we do not know whether it will be for three or four years, but we welcome the hon. Gentleman to the House and we welcome his comments today. I am glad to have the opportunity to reinforce the message that we are absolutely committed to maintaining a nationwide network of post offices.

Mr. Ainger : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Leigh : I have hardly started, so I can hardly give way. I will explain what I mean in a moment.

The Conservative party is the only party with an election manifesto commitment to maintaining such a network, and we have made it clear on many occasions in the House and subsequently that we will stick by it. That point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Conway), the first Conservative Back Bencher to speak in the debate, and it was repeated by every Conservative Back Bencher to speak after him.

Mr. Ainger : The Minister, the Secretary of State and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Corporate Affairs are all current or past members of the No Turning Back group. Page 14 of the group's document, "Choice and Responsibility--the Enabling State", states :

"The post office monopoly can no longer be justified."

Does the Minister still hold that view?

Mr. Leigh : Actually, members of the No Turning Back group are in the majority on the Government Front Bench. We are never bound by pamphlets that we wrote in our youth, I assure the hon. Gentleman. I say to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond) that I and my colleagues in the Government are well aware of the vital importance of post offices in our rural and urban local communities. I point out to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. McKelvey) that I have 78 post offices within my constituency, although sadly not one in my own village. There are no pubs or clubs, but, as the hon. Gentleman said, there is a Member of Parliament, and that is probably good enough.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Mrs. Lait) made it clear that sub-post offices are an

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integral part of rural and urban life, and we will keep them. I reassure the hon. Member for Worsley (Mr. Lewis) that the Government remain absolutely committed to maintaining the nationwide network of post offices.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) asked us what we mean by that commitment. I mean a service that is readily accessible by everyone and to everyone in town and country alike. That does not and cannot mean that no post office will ever close--that would be absurd. People move to different areas ; they change their shopping patterns. The network has to be kept sufficiently flexible to adapt to those changes. As my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade made clear when in July he announced his review of the Post Office, that commitment is non-negotiable ; it is in our manifesto, and ours is the only party with such a commitment in its manifesto.

Mr. Hain : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Leigh : No ; I have insufficient time.

We have been debating the important issue of the payment of pensions and other benefits by automated credit transfer. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already explained why our policy is to encourage--I underline that word--more beneficiaries to have their benefits paid by ACT on a voluntary basis. I do not propose to repeat what he has said. However, I emphasise to my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Mrs. Knight) that my colleagues and I well understand the importance of social security work to sub-post offices. It represents, as the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central (Mr. Cousins) said, at least 30 per cent. of all Post Office Counters' turnover, rising to as much as 50 per cent. in some smaller rural offices.

What has not been fully understood this afternoon is that the option of direct payment into bank accounts has been available for at least 10 years. Therefore, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes said in his north Lincolnshire dialect, this has really been a great stitheram about nothing, because that option has existed for 10 years.

Mr. Dewar : I want to be helpful and I hope that I shall get a clear answer from the Minister. Will he guarantee that in any future forms that are issued, on which people will nominate how they will get payment of their pensions, there will be a clear commitment to equal treatment of all options--in other words, that there will be no question of the Post Office disappearing into an addendum or disappearing off the main part of the form?

Mr. Leigh : I give a commitment that their right to take up their pensions with the Post Office will be clearly stated, as indeed it was stated in the forms that we are talking about.

ACT is an option that has gradually been taken up by pensioners and others, yet total Government business transacted through post offices has in fact increased during each of the past three years, in spite of increased use of ACT. We do not now expect any sudden increase in the numbers making use of ACT. I say to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun that experience over the past

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decade simply does not bear out fears about the future of post offices of the kind that have been expressed today by the Opposition.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear only yesterday, pensioners will continue to be able to receive pensions from most post offices. It is not Government policy to remove the right of pensioners to receive their pensions from the Post Office. I hope that that is an unequivocal statement : it is clear, the Prime Minister made it yesterday, and I have repeated it today. We are encouraging people, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said--we have been encouraging them for many years--to receive their benefits through their bank accounts, but only on a voluntary basis. I will take no lessons from Opposition Members about the importance of choice. We have always been the party of choice, and, as the party of the citizens charter, we will remain so. We are extending a choice of payment method--

Mr. Connarty : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Leigh : No, I will not give way.

We are extending a choice of payment method to those receiving all types of DSS benefit ; we are not restricting that choice. To suggest otherwise is misleading scaremongering, and we have had plenty of scaremongering today and in the weeks leading up to this debate.

Mr. George Walden (Buckingham) : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Leigh : I had better not, if my hon. Friend will allow me, as I have only six minutes left. I must reply to the points that have been made.

Concern has been expressed today and during recent weeks about the trial that was recently undertaken to test--I emphasise that word--three different forms on 24,000 new pensioners. My right hon. Friend has already spoken in some detail about the trial. The trial--I stress that it is only a trial--is merely to test the impact of the different methods of presentation. The aim is to provide information about the advantages to customers of the ACT option, which are not yet widely understood, and to encourage take-up of that method on a voluntary basis.

Some hon. Members have today expressed their concern about the way in which the payment options have been presented in some of the trial forms. Let me therefore add a word of reassurance that the Benefits Agency, which is responsible for the administration of benefits, will take full account of hon. Members' comments on that point. First, our commitment to a nationwide network is not negotiable, whether the Post Office's future lies in the public or private sector. Secondly, there is no link whatever between the encouragement of ACT and our review of the structure and organisation of the Post Office. Thirdly, our policy is to encourage ACT. That policy will not endanger the nationwide network, including the rural network. I say to the hon. Members for Antrim, North and for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Michie) that we will continue to give pensioners a choice in how their pensions are paid.

The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central raised questions about the Post Office review. I can assure hon. Members that the review is being undertaken with no preconceptions as to its outcome and it is looking at both private and public sector options. It is Labour Members who are frightened of ideas. All new ideas in their hands have turned out to be vote losers.

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The Opposition have suggested today that there is a link between privatisation of the Post Office, encouragement of ACT, and post office closures. I find it hard to follow their argument. If, as they claim, we are trying to fatten up the Post Office for privatisation, why should we wish to encourage ACT at all? Surely, if fattening up the Post Office was our intention, we would be trying to minimise ACT payments so that the Post Office would get more and more of that work. If we were seeking only to maximise the Post Office's profits in preparation for privatisation, why should we be making repeated assurances about maintaining the nationwide network, including the rural offices which are the least profitable?

I say to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Loyden) that we have an open mind on privatisation. Opposition Members have a closed mind. We look at private and public sector options. Opposition Members consider only public sector options. Of course, the Labour party predicted disaster for customer services before every privatisation. "No privatised company would ever bother looking after the customer," the Labour party said. "All that it would be interested in would be profits." Labour got it wrong in every privatisation. We have only to look at British Telecom and the investment that has gone into the network to know that.

The Labour party's refusal even to consider the benefits that privatisation might bring the Post Office is an indication of a deeper malaise in the Labour party. Labour Members have a dinosaur-like conservatism which would allow the Post Office to ossify--shackled by unavoidable public sector constraints, unable to compete effectively in a changing world. They would condemn the Post Office to a slow decline, as they would have condemned all the other nationalised industries. Of course, they have opposed every nationalisation.

We have heard a lot of nonsense today about ACT. It was a Labour Minister, the right hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme), who, about 15 years ago --perhaps he will listen to this--said :

"I am expecting a report by the end of the month I am in favour of the principle"--

of payment direct into pensioners' bank accounts--

"and the introduction of such an arrangement would cover child benefit as well as retirement pensions I hope to make some progress in the near future."--[ Official Report, 6 March 1979 ; Vol. 963, c. 1078.]

Mr. Michael Lord (Suffolk, Central) : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Leigh : No, I must finish my remarks.

That was a Labour Minister about 15 years ago, saying that he would welcome progress to ACT.

I say to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central that I am surprised that he has not protested that his constituents are charged by the Labour council when they pay their council tax at their post offices. In central Newcastle, the council expects--it even demands of--people to pay the council tax at the local housing office, and if it is paid at a post office a charge is made. What kind of choice is that in Labour's heartland?

Mr. Cousins : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Leigh : No ; the hon. Gentleman has had his chance. Labour's scaremongering about the Post Office was as wrong 10 years ago as it is today. It was wrong at the time of the privatisation of British Telecom, and wrong on

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every other privatisation. Labour was wrong yesterday, is wrong today and no doubt will be wrong tomorrow. Labour says that it is opposed to closures, but it has closed more post offices than we ever did. Labour says that it favours a national network of post offices, yet ours is the only party that is committed to it. Labour says that it favours investment, yet it has opposed any discussion of the options that would result in private investment to improve the service.

Labour says that it cares about pensioners. Why does it indulge in scaremongering? Labour says that it favours choice. Why does it deride our commitment to choice? We will give new opportunities to our small post offices. They will be allowed to compete for national lottery work and we will consider giving them further opportunities in financial services, bill payments and ticket sales. Other interesting ideas have been raised and considered in the course of our review, all of which Labour has opposed.

We have raised the standard for choice, investment and free enterprise. The existence of all 19,000 privately run sub-post offices is a tribute to the spirit of entrepreneurship which we wish to foster and which the Opposition despise. We want those businesses to grow and expand--to be providers of valued services in villages and towns--and we will continue to offer them that opportunity. We will continue to offer all our pensioners the right to choose between the bank and the post office for payment of their pensions.

That is our commitment--to choice, to investment and to the Post Office. I urge my hon. Friends to reject this absurd motion. Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question :--

The House divided : Ayes 275, Noes 311.

Division No. 275] [7.00 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainger, Nick

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Ashton, Joe

Austin-Walker, John

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, Andrew F.

Benton, Joe

Bermingham, Gerald

Berry, Dr. Roger

Betts, Clive

Blair, Tony

Blunkett, David

Boyce, Jimmy

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Burden, Richard

Byers, Stephen

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Canavan, Dennis

Cann, Jamie

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clapham, Michael

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Coffey, Ann

Cohen, Harry

Connarty, Michael

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbett, Robin

Corbyn, Jeremy

Corston, Ms Jean

Cousins, Jim

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John

Dafis, Cynog

Darling, Alistair

Davidson, Ian

Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

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