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11.34 pm

Sir Giles Shaw (Pudsey) : I venture with some unease into this debate amongst professionals who are well aware of what happens on upland sheep farms. First, I support my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock) as a member of the all-party wool textile group. Indeed, I still have some textile interests in my constituency. I know some scourers as well, and I know a little about the importance of the English clip. I accept the main thrust of my hon. Friend's argument, which is that farmers rear sheep primarily for meat and that that is their main source of income. Not long ago the price of lamb in particular was at rock bottom. The industry--particularly the hill farmers--was in real difficulty. It is not a stable industry : there is much ebb and flow, due partly to consumer demand and partly to price.

Those of us who have the blessing of visiting uplands fairly often recognise the real need to maintain the upland farmer. The valleys and dales of Yorkshire must be properly farmed--worked in a way that is suitable only for the terrain over which the farmers have to earn their living. It is a pretty fragile industry. It is all very well to look at other sectors of agriculture that have a real prospect of generating income in most conditions. The upland sheep farmer operates between fragile margins of success and failure. I beg my hon. Friend to recognise that fact. If, in due course, there is to be a significant difference in the incomes of hill sheep farmers, the scheme might be reconstituted. For many years, it has been of extreme value to these people.

My second point relates to rare breeds. There has been a major effort to sustain the Herdwick, which at one point was in grave danger of running out. We have the Swaledale as well, but the Herdwick is a particular breed from the high Yorkshire dales and the lakeland fells, and it would be a real tragedy if it were lost as a result of this measure.

The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours), who has a robust interest in this matter, spoke with his usual tremendous grasp. I do not intend to enter into the debate about what happens if sheep are not clipped. I accept that there is many a tick between the fleece and the clip. I do not expect an answer from my hon. Friend at this stage, but I ask him to bear in mind the fact that, with regard to protection of the upland environment and of the upland breeds--quite apart from the importance of maintaining this fragile industry--what is being done is not necessarily very welcome or of huge significance in terms of agricultural support. However, it represents a very present help in trouble. And the troubles could well return.

11.38 pm

Mr. Campbell-Savours : I should like to say a few words before the Minister replies. Perhaps he would care to listen to the questions that I am about to put.

Is he prepared to monitor what happens over the next 12 months so that it may be established whether there has been a decline in the British clip? At this stage, Ministers are not prepared to accept that my proposition has any merit, and there is not much sympathy among Conservative Members for the case that I have made. However, there is a view--and it is held not just by my hon. Friends and myself--that there will be a decline in the British clip, and that this will have implications for the wool textile industry in the United Kingdom. Hon.

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Members may shake their heads, but I can assure them that this view is held. I ask merely that Ministers keep an eye on the situation to ensure that if there is a clip reduction consideration will be given to the introduction of some arrangement to prevent long-term consequences for British industry.

We shall divide the House on this matter. We shall wish to win, but if we are defeated Ministers should monitor the situation and consider what measures might be taken to deal with any damage. 11.39 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Sir Hector Monro) : I am pleased to respond to some of the points raisetonight. We heard an astonishing speech from the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). The one good point that he made was so obvious that it hardly needed to be made--that the situation should be monitored. Agriculture Ministers monitor all the time everything that is happening. Effective organisations participated in the hill farming review, and our close relationship with the farmers' unions of all countries enables us to know what is happening. We are not in any way winding up the British wool marketing board--certainly not. We are dealing only with the scheme. I give warm thanks to the board's chairman and members, who have done exceptionally well. I particularly want to mention Joe Raine, who will be well known to my right hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling), and who has done so much in the north of England over such a long time.

The board has done outstandingly good work in its 40 year's existence. I declare an interest : I have been a customer of the board for all those 40 years. There have been five years to plan for the Government's decision, and in that time the board had an opportunity to prepare its financial situation, build up its reserves, which now stand at some £10 million, and cushion the effect of the price drop that will occur this year, being the difference between last year's guaranteed price and this year's market price. The price schedule issued last week shows that the difference between the market and guaranteed price will be in the region of 50 per cent. This year, farmers will receive the 50 per cent. that was held back last year, so there will not be the dramatic price drop that the hon. Member for Workington and others suggested. Over the past five years, the board has worked on minimising the effect of the change on farmers and on customers. It has certainly taken its duties very seriously.

The hon. Member for Workington devoted most of his speech to animal welfare. Any right hon. or hon. Member who has, like myself, been involved in sheep farming for many years will know that the hon. Gentleman's fears and criticisms are wholly unfounded. If he really believes that the average farmer will allow his flock to go unclippped in the year, he is miles from reality.

The hon. Gentleman might equally have said last year, when we stopped compulsory dipping, that farmers would not dip to save money--but they all dipped. Dipping is important in respect of not only scab but fly, and clipping and dipping--as hill and lowland farmers well know--are an essential part of sheep husbandry.

Mr. Elliot Morley (Glanford and Scunthorpe) : Is the Minister aware that, sadly, prosecutions for cruelty to

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farm animals increased last year? Although we would not claim that such farmers are in the majority, unfortunately a minority mistreat farm animals. Given marginal incomes, the pressure on that minority will increase. Does not the Minister accept that that real risk ought to be taken seriously?

Sir Hector Monro : Everything is taken seriously, but one must look at risks at face value. The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Workington totally exaggerate the order's likely repercussions. It is part of normal sheep husbandry to clip and to dip. Those operations will continue as before.

Having been a member of the all-party wool textile group, I appreciate how much my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock) and her colleagues have done to promote the textile industry. I live in a textile area, so I appreciate the importance of the wool clip to the textile industry. Mills or brokers in my part of the world have not complained that our proposals will have a detrimental effect on the wool and textile industry.

Nor, indeed, have I received complaints from fellmongers, who are an important part of the industry. I believe, as my hon. Friend the Minister of State said in opening, that there will be ample wool supplies--and possibly at a lower cost than in the past--and that the industry will not be harmed by the order.

Mr. Campbell-Saosals circularised? Have not they protested to the Ministry? Have not they written letters and sought meetings with Ministers to object? Is he saying that this is a figment of our imagination? Is he saying that people in the industry have misled Labour Members by suggesting that they have been making representations on these issues? Is it all a figment of our imagination?

Sir Hector Monro : Yes, it must be. I check my daily correspondence very carefully. I have had no letters from the textile or fellmongering industries.

Mrs. Peacock : I have listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Under -Secretary. All I can say is that everybody in the industry wrote to the chairman of the all-party wool textile group instead. I assure my hon. Friend that I have received plenty of letters and I took deputations to see my hon. Friend the Minister of State. They obviously sent their letters to me rather than to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary.

Sir Hector Monro : If my hon. Friend has had voluminous correspondence, it would be nice if she were to pass it on to me so that I can deal with it. We are most concerned for the wool and textile industry, especially the hosiery industry, which has had such a struggle in recent years. I am not criticising. I am saying that the order will not make the situation any worse. Indeed, it may help because prices may be lower.

The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) was concerned about timing. His forecast of farm incomes is, frankly, not true. For the past two years, hill farm incomes in Scotland have increased by 40 per cent. That is agreed by the hill farming review and there is no doubt about it.

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We have been over the figures umpteen times. The figures have been produced by academics throughout the United Kingdom, and the statement of fact is reflected in the sheep annual premium, the hill livestock commensatory allowance, the suckler cow subsidy and all the other assets that have been devoted to helping hill farming. The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) saw the position sensibly and he wished it to be kept in proportion. We shall monitor the situation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Sir G. Shaw) said that it is important to maintain upland farms, and I could not agree more. That is exactly why we have increased subsidies for hill farmers in recent years. Under the sheep annual premium, the HLCAs, the suckler cow subsidy and environmentally sensitive areas assistance will be given to environmentally friendly ways of farming.

We are certainly looking after the hill farming sector, especially where wool is involved. There is no reason to feel that the change under the order will have a serious impact on farming incomes. We are convinced that it will be as low as 5 per cent. or less. We can get it right in conjunction with the British wool marketing board. I know that there are difficulties because of world wool prices, but it is possible that they will improve. It is the board's leadership on quality and its determination constantly to raise standards which will provide the likely route to success. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put :--

The House divided : Ayes 189, Noes 150.

Division No. 284] [11.49 pm

AYES

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Beresford, Sir Paul

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bowden, Andrew

Bowis, John

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Budgen, Nicholas

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Peter

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Clappison, James

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Congdon, David

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)

Davies, Quentin (Stamford)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Durant, Sir Anthony

Eggar, Tim

Elletson, Harold

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Faber, David

Fabricant, Michael

Forman, Nigel

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Gallie, Phil

Gardiner, Sir George

Gill, Christopher

Gillan, Cheryl

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Grylls, Sir Michael

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hargreaves, Andrew

Harris, David

Hawksley, Warren

Hayes, Jerry

Heald, Oliver

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

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