House of Commons Hansard Debates for 26 May 1993

Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My point of order concerns the way in which the Secretary of State for National Heritage has chosen to make a statement on the adequacy of fire protection measures for the royal palaces. It has taken several months for the report on that matter to appear. It appeared surreptitiously on the Letter Board and has been in the Press Gallery for the past five hours, yet the official Opposition have neither been notified of it nor told that there was a copy on the Letter Board.

We should have a statement on the matter, which is causing considerable concern to British taxpayers because the lack of adequate fire protection measures at Windsor castle has meant that the taxpayer is having to fork out tens of millions of pounds. We have a right to a statement in the House from the Secretary of State for National Heritage on this important matter.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : The hon. Lady will be aware that it is not for the Chair to decide on an application for a statement, but her views will have been heard by those on the Treasury Bench.

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Orders of the Day

Welsh Language Bill [Lords]

Order for Second Reading read.

5.4 pm

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

It gives me great pleasure to open the debate. The Bill is an important step forward for the Welsh language. In Wales, we are proud of our culture and tradition. But underpinning our priceless heritage is the Welsh language. Twenty-six years ago, introducing the previous Welsh Language Bill, Mr. Elystan Morgan, the then Member for Cardigan, said :

"It is right and proper to regard such a priceless and irreplaceable thing as a language exactly as the greatest treasures of art which have come from the hands of the painter or the sculptor."--[ Official Report, 17 July 1967 ; Vol. 750, c. 1478.] I could not agree more with those words. Since then, the unique position of the Welsh language has been increasingly recognised. In the past few years, there has been something of a renaissance. The census figures for 1991 show that the decline in the total number of Welsh speakers has, at last, been halted. There are now more than half a million Welsh speakers--18.7 per cent. of the population of Wales. Most importantly, statistics show that, in the all-important younger age groups--people aged between three and 15--the percentage of Welsh speakers has increased from 18 to 24 per cent. of the population over the past 10 years. I welcome those figures.

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West) : Does the Secretary of State agree that the most important group of all is those aged 15 to 25 years? Pupils in Welsh-medium schools will correctly fill in the census form to say that they can speak Welsh, but it is what happens after such pupils have left school that makes the difference. Only when we see an increase in the number of those who can speak Welsh in the 15 to 25 age group shall we be able to say that we have turned the corner.

Mr. Hunt : I agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is vital to ensure that the number of Welsh speakers in the three to 15 age group continues to increase. That increase will feed through. I equally recognise that, particularly as the number of Welsh speakers is increasing--the result, I believe, of policies pioneered by many people, including my right hon. Friend the Minister of State--it is important to ensure that children leaving school have just as great an opportunity to use the Welsh language that they have learnt there.

Policies that encourage the use of the Welsh language have made substantial progress, but only because they are founded and based on consensus, which is critical. If our policies in support of the Welsh language are to succeed, they must have the support of the people in the rest of the United Kingdom, as well as those in Wales. I very much hope that there will be considerable consensus in the debate and in subsequent discussions.

Until recently, the 20th century had seen a decline in the number of Welsh speakers. It has been very much a century of decline for the Welsh language. In many ways,

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it is a century in which the language has had to come to terms with the enormous social and economic changes that are taking place in Wales. Those changes are still taking place, but, as I said, there are signs that the decline has been halted. The key to the resurgence in the use of the Welsh language can be found in education and, in particular, the growth in Welsh-medium education outside the traditional Welsh-speaking areas.

In 1967, there was but one Welsh-medium secondary school, containing fewer than 500 pupils, serving the whole of south Wales. Today, there are eight such schools, containing more than 5,500 pupils, and a further 63 primary schools. In Wales as a whole, Welsh-medium schools constitute more than a quarter of the total.

Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend) : Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to pay tribute to the pioneering work of the old Labour Glamorgan county council which led the way and Mid Glamorgan which continues the tradition? If he is convinced of the value of education as a way of increasing the number of people in Wales who speak Welsh, does he agree that he should provide extra funds in places such as Bridgend which desperately need a Welsh-medium secondary school but do not have sufficient capital to build one at present?

Mr. Hunt : I pay tribute to the majority of local authorities in Wales which have pioneered many important policies. It is for a local education authority to determine its own priorities within the overall spending programme which we announce each year. However, I recognise that some local authorities have played an especially important part in the process.

Mr. Alex Carlile (Montgomery) : Is the Secretary of State satisfied with the fact that there is no dedicated Welsh-medium secondary school in Powys? Will he explain why the Bill does not enshrine the right for parents to have their children educated through the medium of Welsh? Surely a Welsh Language Bill, which appears so rarely, should enshrine that right for the people in Wales who wish to take advantage of it.

Mr. Hunt : It has traditionally been left to local education authorities to determine their priorities in that respect. Of course, the hon. and learned Gentleman should make Powys county council aware of the views that he has expressed so strongly, but, at the end of the day, it is for Powys county council to determine the provision of education under existing policies. The vast majority of education authorities in Wales have shown a positive attitude to expanding Welsh-medium education. The Government have introduced a larger element of parental choice in education.

Mr. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) : Gwent has not traditionally taught Welsh as a compulsory subject. Does the Secretary of State agree that there is a great need for extra resources to train teachers already employed in Gwent, and to employ more teachers, to teach Welsh? Does he accept that there is a major disagreement between his Department and Gwent about proper resourcing for the teaching of the Welsh language?

Mr. Hunt : We have provided additional resources to increase the number of teachers available for the teaching of Welsh, but it is for local authorities to determine their spending priorities in this and other spheres.

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Mr. Jonathan Evans (Brecon and Radnor) : My right hon. Friend should be aware that there is widespread concern in Powys about the provision of Welsh-medium education, but the observations made in another place, which I understand are part of Government policy, have provided assurances that the schemes that are to be put to the new Welsh Language Board created under the Bill will include the requirement for local authorities to examine the provision of Welsh-medium education.

Mr. Hunt : My hon. Friend makes an important point, and I shall refer to it when I deal with the powers of the Welsh Language Board. As my hon. Friend rightly says, the Bill establishes a Welsh Language Board as a statutory body. Education and schemes for the provision of education will be included in its overall jurisdiction.

I was talking about Welsh-medium schools. The Welsh nursery schools movement, Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, did not exist in 1967. Today, it sponsors some 1,000 Welsh-medium nursery schools in Wales and is part of a thriving Welsh language voluntary sector. That reflects, in part, the growth in Government support, but the sheer commitment of the people involved has been the main motivation and driving force. Welsh language television broadcasting was in its infancy in 1967. It was a relatively new adventure in which my right hon. Friend the Minister of State was one of the heroes. He was heavily involved. Today, S4C broadcasts in Welsh during peak hours and is a model for broadcasting in a minority language. I pay tribute to all those involved.

The Welsh Language Act 1967 was an important step. It confirmed the position of spoken Welsh in the courts and led to a significant expansion in its use in public administration. However, it was legislation for its time. Times have now changed ; hence, the need for the Bill.

The most important change that has taken place is the fact that the language is now surrounded by what is best described as an aura of confidence. It is increasingly used in all aspects of people's lives, and that is in no small measure due to the consistent support of Governments in the past two decades. I am especially pleased that the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) is to wind up for the Opposition. I recall the steps that he took to give financial assistance to the National Eisteddfod. He was responsible for introducing the powers to fund bilingual education projects which the in-coming Conservative Government accepted and were happy to enact in the Education Act 1980. I pay tribute to him for what, in historical terms, is seen as an important step.

I remember the major policy speech made at Llanrwst by my noble Friend Lord Crickhowell. No doubt the hon. Memcially historic step was that taken by my immediate predecessor, now Lord Walker. He made Welsh a foundation subject in the national curriculum and a core subject in Welsh-medium schools.

The future of the language will, of course, depend on far more than Government action alone.

Mr. Cynog Dafis (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North) : The right hon. Gentleman has made great play of Government initiatives and the Government's willingness to respond to representations, but will he pay tribute to those who have for decades exerted considerable pressure

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on Governments, national and local, by way of vigorous campaigning and at no small cost? It is fair to say that we would not have got even as far as we have today but for their enormous commitment to the Welsh language and their willingness to act.

Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman has anticipated what I was about to say. As he rose, I was saying that the future of the language will depend on far more than Government action alone. Many people have been prepared, within the law, to demonstrate their strong support for the Welsh language. At times, it has been difficult to maintain that posture against some of the extremists, but I pay great tribute to the dedicated people who, within the law, have helped us to ensure that one of Europe's oldest languages survives as a living language. However, the Government have a role to play. The reports submitted to me by the Welsh Language Board argue cogently about what role legislation could play, and the Bill represents the Government's response to the board's recommendations.

Wales is a bilingual society. The opportunities for people to choose which language they wish to use should therefore be as wide as possible. I want to see a level playing field for English and Welsh, and the Bill recognises that, because Welsh speakers are a minority of the total population of Wales, the language requires some assistance if that choice is to be exercised as widely as possible. Much has already been done to facilitate the use of the language, and the Bill seeks to build on that.

The Welsh language is already widely used for official purposes ; it is the language of public administration in many parts of Wales, but the Bill is founded on a recognition that sometimes there can be obstacles to the use of Welsh. Some of the obstacles can be removed by statute, and the Bill tackles those directly. Others are susceptible to removal by administrative means, and the Bill establishes a framework that allows the practical obstacles to be tackled by the preparation of Welsh language schemes.

Before referring to the challenge that faces the new statutory Welsh Language Board, I shall mention the work of the current board under its existing chairman John Elfed Jones. I believe that the consensus about the sort of general principles that should govern policy on the language-- principles now reflected in the Bill--is largely a result of the sensitive, reasonable, but always tenacious way in which the board has conducted itself over the past five years. On Second Reading, it is appropriate for me to pay my personal tribute to John Elfed Jones for his leadership and his enthusiasm for our language, and to the members of the board and its officers for the dedication that they have shown to the furtherance of the Welsh language.

It is fitting, therefore, that clause 1 establishes the statutory Welsh Language Board. The work of the current board has shown the advantages to be gained from having a body able to promote and facilitate the language whenever it is used.

Clause 2 concerns the board's membership. It was amended during the Bill's consideration in the House of Lords to underline the breadth of expertise that the membership will need to reflect if the board is effectively to carry out its extremely wide remit.

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Clause 3 defines that remit as promoting and facilitating the use of the Welsh language, as well as advising the Secretary of State for Wales on all aspects of its use.

Mr. Gareth Wardell (Gower) : Will the Secretary of State ensure that appointments to the board will be made only from people on the list kept in the Welsh Office, that the forms will have to be correctly filled in in good time, and that no one will be appointed who has not been on that list for at least a year?

Mr. Hunt : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to place an obstacle in the way of promoting and appointing the best people. I am never attracted by the bureaucratic response that says to someone of considerable ability, "Sorry, you cannot be appointed because you have not been on the list for a year." I shall genuinely reflect on the importance on the hon. Gentleman's arguments, but without undertaking to be bound by them.

The board's promotional powers are potentially wide ranging, and they include the power to pay grants in support of the Welsh language. Our intention is that the board should assume responsibility for grant aiding all but the major Welsh language organisations as soon as possible.

Mr. Alex Carlile : May I return for a moment to the Secretary of State's justified tribute to the board? Many of us agree that the board has done an excellent job, so will the right hon. Gentleman explain during his speech why he is not presenting to the House the Bill drafted by the board?

Mr. Hunt : We have discussed with the board at all stages the Bill that should be presented. I believe that it is generally accepted that the board's draft could not be immediately translated into the proposed legislation. No doubt in Committee, as we go through the Bill clause by clause, hon. Members from all parties will propose amendments to reflect the issues that they believe that the Bill does not contain. However, I believe that, subject to some amendments that the Government will introduce, the Bill largely reflects the way forward for the Welsh language.

The Bill does not define--

Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones (Ynys Mo n) : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hunt : Just a moment. I shall finish what I was saying about clause 3.

The Bill does not define the promotional function in great detail, because it will be for the board to decide how the functions should be exercised. The board should establish itself as an acknowledged centre of excellence and expertise on all matters to do with the language, and I believe that it must do so independent of day-to-day interference of the Government, whichever Government may be in power.

Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : The Secretary of State will acknowledge that the Bill should set out a framework within which the language can flourish, and that the board considered that the framework needed a statement of principle. The statement of principle that the board believed should be enhrined in the Bill was that of equal

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status for the language. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he and his colleagues in government would be prepared to consider any form of amendment that would include such a statement on the face of the Bill ?

Mr. Hunt : I believe that the phrase put to me at the time was "equal validity" rather than "equal status". Whichever phrase is used, I am advised that the most appropriate way forward is to say that a basis of equality between Welsh and English is needed. No doubt we can examine such matters in Committee.

Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) : The actual wording in the Bill is "official language". I believe that that means status. [Interruption.] That is the board's wording.

Mr. Hunt : I believe that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the board's draft Bill.

Mr. Llwyd : Yes.

Mr. Hunt : I realise that those are important issues which will have to be tackled in Committee, as we seek to ensure that the words that become part of an Act of Parliament are correct. As a lawyer, the hon. Gentleman will understand that it was subsequently discovered that the words used in the original Welsh Language Act 1967 had a different effect from that which the Ministers who introduced the Bill expected. One of the reasons why the present Bill is required is to amend the original Act. I do not want to leave to my successors-- [Interruption] --in many years' time-- [Interruption] --the need to pass amending legislation. [ Hon. Members :-- "Time to go."] I had felt there was a tendency to somnolence on the Opposition Benches, and I am pleased to have woken up some hon. Members. I want the Bill to establish as flexible as possible a framework. For example, I believe that most people would accept that the Government's policy of an arm's-length involvement with the creative arts, as embodied in the relationship between the Arts Council and the Government, is now well established. The creation of the Welsh Language Board provides us with an opportunity to establish a similar principle for the Welsh language. As with the arts, there will always be some matters-- such as the total public resources made available, and the broad strategic priorities--on which the Government will have to take a view. However, other matters will be best left to the board.

Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) : Before the Secretary of State leaves, will he advise us? The issue of equal status and equal validity was debated at some length on a series of amendments in another place. Are we to take it from what the right hon. Gentleman is saying now that he is sympathetic and open-minded towards the idea of accepting amendments that were rejected in another place?

Mr. Hunt : I understand that the hon. Gentleman was talking about my leaving that specific point in my speech. We espouse the principle of equal status and equal validity, but we seek to translate that in the most effective way that we are told is necessary in the Bill that we are presenting to the House. If the hon. Gentleman has a formula which we are told is more effective, we shall listen with some degree of surprise to him, but with some interest as well.

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It may be helpful to the House if I explain the Government's view of the broad strategic priorities that the board will need to address. I hope that there will be substantial agreement about them. The first is preparing and consulting on the guidelines on the form and content of Welsh language schemes. The introduction of schemes for the major public sector bodies in Wales, including Government Departments, should also be a priority. We will expect the board to continue its work in an advisory capacity in the private sector in which its voluntary guidelines have achieved much already. It will also be important for the board to further the language through innovative and imaginative schemes, as it has with Menter Cwm Gwendraeth and its existing Welsh language software projects. Education will be another area in which the board will need to develop expertise and guidance in the way anticipated by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Evans) earlier. I will expect the board to respond to the strategic priorities at the earliest possible opportunity after it is established. I expect there to be considerable interest in the early statement that will be published by the board setting out its policies and priorities. I hope that that will be a public document on which there can be widespread consultation.

Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon) : In that context, and with regard to the need to develop a comprehensive strategy--much of it impinges on legislation, but some parts of it go beyond language legislation into planning, housing and employment--is the right hon. Gentleman aware that "Strategaeth Iaith", which has been published by Fforwm Iaith Genedlaethol, laid down guidelines for such a strategy? Can he ensure that those elements are taken on board by the Welsh Office when it drafts new strategic guidelines with the new board?

Mr. Hunt : The issues, some of which have been mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, will need to be addressed and taken on board as we proceed in the way in which I have outlined.

I hope that it will become immediately apparent to the House that the Welsh Language Board will be right at the heart of the changes that the Bill is intended to bring about. The fact that the Bill does not spell out in every last detail the way in which Parliament expects the board to go about its task only serves to emphasise the responsibiity that the House will place on the chairman of the board and its members. Therefore, the chairman will need to be a person of many talents, not the least of which is the ability to follow in the footsteps of so able a predecessor as John Elfed Jones.

I am pleased to be able to announce to the House that the Prime Minister has agreed that Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas will be the first chairman of the statutory board. [Interruption.] I am pleased at that response, and hope that the Official Report will show that approval for that announcement came from both sides of the House. Lord Elis-Thomas has accepted the offer of appointment and will assume the role formally if Parliament agrees to the passage of the Bill two months after Royal Assent. As chairman-elect, he will be involved closely in the detailed preparatory work that will be required.

Lord Elis-Thomas is known to all the people in Wales as a life-long supporter of the Welsh language. Having heard his outstanding maiden speech in another place,

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I know that he combines that support with a deep understanding of the issues affecting the future well-being of the language. I hope that the House will agree that we have secured the services of a dynamic and exciting chairman for the board and will join me in wishing Lord Elis-Thomas every possible success in this most important task.

Mr. Morgan : We wish every success to the new chairman of the Welsh Language Board--as we would wish success to anyone who had been elected to that difficult appointment with such an enormous task in front of him ; one could hardly not wish such success to anyone who is appointed. However, from the maiden speech and other speeches made in another place by Lord Elis-Thomas, we have noticed that he has traversed a great political difference since leaving this House. Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the appointment is not part of any written agreement with Plaid Cymru relating to the Maastricht treaty votes of which we have heard, though we have never seen the text?

Mr. Hunt : The House should be used to the nonsense that comes, sadly, from the Labour Front Bench in the form of the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan). I hope that he will welcome my announcement today of the reappointment of Lord Brookes as deputy chairman of the Cardiff Bay development corporation and recognise that as another demonstration that we always appoint the best people to the tasks that lie ahead.

Mr. Peter Hain (Neath) : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hunt : I shall give way in a moment.

Recently, there has been a growing awareness of the role of public bodies in ensuring that Welsh speakers are able to use Welsh to obtain the public services that are such a major part of people's everyday lives. That is a crucial development because, as the hon. Member for Cardiff, West said in an earlier intervention, over the next few years there will be a growing number of young people leaving school who have had the opportunity to study Welsh throughout their school careers. The impact of Welsh in the national curriculum will be that much more powerful as Welsh is seen more as a prominent feature of the world in which our children grow up.

The Bill aims to secure a general improvement in the level of Welsh language service that is provided across the public sector in Wales by requiring public bodies to prepare Welsh language schemes. Clauses 5 to 21 establish the legal framework governing the duty to prepare schemes and their subsequent operation. The board will be at the heart of that framework because it will influence the rate at which schemes will be introduced. It will have the task of approving schemes as well as any subsequent revisions to them and investigate complaints arising from their operation.

The principle of equality, which is set out in clause 5, lies at the heart of the Bill and will be a powerful and flexible framework for the board to have at its disposal. Welsh has been the language of large areas of public administration over a long period. Its use in public business has expanded significantly over the past two decades. Establishing the principle of equality by means of

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this legislation will, however, serve to remove any uncertainty that may have surrounded the use of Welsh for official purposes. The crucial feature of the Bill is that, at the same time as it establishes the principle of equality, it puts that principle into practice by requiring that the purpose of schemes should be to give effect to the principle that the English and Welsh languages should be treated on a basis of equality. The only qualification to that is that it must be appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable. Let me make it plain that it will not be open to public bodies to take a narrow view of what is appropriate and reasonably practicable. The test will need to be applied objectively in every case, the content of each organisation's scheme will need to be approved by the Welsh Language Board and every scheme must comply with the board's statutory guidelines.

Welsh language schemes will be introduced for every public body serving Wales, including bodies based outside Wales but which provide a service that extends to Wales. However, the terms of clause 6 enable me, by order, to specify further bodies as public bodies for the purposes of the Bill. More generally, the Bill draws an important distinction between public and private sector organisations. The board will have the power to advise private bodies on their use of the language.

Mr. Gareth Wardell : When Committees of the House that relate to Wales, such as the Welsh Grand Committee and the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, meet in Wales, will they be required to have facilities to allow the Welsh language to be used?

Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman is the Chairman of one of the most prestigious Select Committees. He will know that it is a matter for the House, not for me as a member of the Government, to lay down a particular policy. The matter ought to, and will, be decided within the House.

Government Departments have been at the forefront of many of the most innovative and successful Welsh language policies introduced in recent years. Therefore, I am pleased to confirm today that all Government Departments and agencies will introduce such schemes. Although the Bill necessarily will have rather different provisions for Crown bodies, I assure the House that the schemes of such bodies will be subject to the same scrutiny by the Welsh Language Board as all other schemes. Just as with other public bodies, the board will be able to investigate complaints arising from the schemes of Crown bodies--although I hope that there will not be any complaints--and publish its findings.

Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East) : An evolution is taking place from the public to the private sector. When a body such as the Post Office moves from one regime to another and becomes a private limited company, will it carry with it the obligations that it had as a public body?

Mr. Hunt : I hope that the Post Office will recognise the spirit of what I have said.

Mr. Alex Carlile : Answer.

Mr. Hunt : The answer is that we have drawn a distinction in the Bill between public and private bodies.

Mr. Alex Carlile : So the answer is no.

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Mr. Hunt : It is difficult to deal with sedentary interventions, especially when they may not be reflected in the record. To make it clear, the Bill introduces a distinction between public and private bodies. Those bodies that are at present public are well known, as are the bodies that are private.

Mr. Alex Carlile : Will the Secretary of State give way?

Mr. Wigley : Will the Secretary of State give way?

Mr. Hunt : As I have dealt with the sedentary intervention, I shall now deal with a proper one.

Mr. Wigley : Does the Secretary of State accept that clause 6(1)(o) says :

"any person (whether or not a body corporate or unincorporate) who appears to the Secretary of State to be exercising functions of a public nature by order made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this Part of the Act"

can be brought into those provisions? If the Secretary of State is so minded and the board is so minded, the provisions that apply to the Post Office in the public sector could be made to apply to the Post Office in the private sector.

Mr. Hunt : I do not wish to mislead the hon. Gentleman. If he reflects, he will realise that it is not possible for a body in those circumstances to make the transition from the public to the private sector and still be caught by the provisions of clause 6(1)(o) as he has described them. However, those are matters for Committee and we shall no doubt deliberate them.

Mr. Donald Anderson : But it is a fundamental point.

Mr. Hunt : Yes, it is a fundamental point. I have answered it by making it clear to the House that we do not believe that the provisions of the Bill, as they apply to public bodies, should be applied in equal measure to private sector bodies and organisations. I have one qualification. The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) was right to refer to the power provided in the Bill to ensure that the private sector training and enterprise councils can be brought within the terms of the legislation.

The aim of the Bill is to bring about a general improvement in the level of Welsh language services. If the Bill is to succeed, it will need to respond to the particular needs of the Welsh speakers who use those services. Therefore, there must be consultation on schemes. Schemes will need to be flexible. As my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Evans) has said to me on several occasions, it would not be sensible to impose the same scheme uniformly on every public body in Wales. I suspect that for the foreseeable future the provision of Welsh language services will be more prominent in Pwllheli than in Pontypridd. The Bill reflects that.

It will also be important that there is a common understanding of the general principles that constitute an effective Welsh language service and of how practical effect can be given to the principle of equality. Therefore, all public bodies will have to have regard to guidelines prepared by the board in drawing up their schemes.

Mr. Hain : If Group 4 undertakes any agency work for the Government or any of their services, will it be expected to conform to the terms of the Bill? If Group 4's record in the prison service is anything to go by, surely that will give new meaning to freedom for Welsh speakers.

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Mr. Hunt : I do not think that I should respond to that sort of intervention in a serious debate.

Education will feature prominently among the board's

responsibilities. Welsh-medium education will be included in the Welsh language schemes prepared by local authorities. A similar duty will extend to the schools funding council for Wales, which I may establish under the provisions of the Education Bill currently being considered in another place.

One of the issues that the Bill will not affect is the position of Welsh in the national curriculum and the content of the curriculum taught through the medium of Welsh. Those matters are already secured in separate legislation. Welsh is established as a foundation subject within the national curriculum and it is a core subject in Welsh medium schools. Schemes will not be able to alter that in any way. The advisory role of the Welsh Language Board will also extend to education. The board will assume the responsibility currently exercised by the Welsh Language Education Department Committee to take a broad overview of the Welsh language in all phases of education.

If Welsh is to enjoy the status in the conduct of public business that we intend, the Bill needs to address not just the practical but the legislative obstacles that stand in the way of Welsh and English being dealt with on a basis of equality. Practical obstacles will be addressed by the schemes. Legal obstacles are dealt with in part III of the Bill.

Clauses 22 to 24 re-enact the provisions in the Welsh Language Act 1967 on the use of Welsh in courts. I restate that we are committed to clarifying the position of written evidence in Welsh. That complex area is one on which I hope we shall be able to make progress in Committee.

Clauses 25 to 29 extend the existing powers that enable the holder of the office of Secretary of State to prescribe Welsh versions of forms. I and my colleagues will in future be able to prescribe Welsh versions of forms of words and names of bodies and places currently prescribed in statute in English only.

Perhaps one of the most important provisions is part III, which repeals the spent provisions of the Laws in Wales Acts of 1535 and 1542. The Laws in Wales Acts, commonly referred to as the Act of Union, have not stood in the way of the continued survival of the Welsh language or of its more recent renaissance. Their presence on the statute book has, however, cast a shadow over the status which the language enjoys and which will be consolidated and enhanced by the Bill.

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