House of Commons Hansard Debates for 26 May 1993

Mr. Llwyd : I am sure that the Minister agrees that the woefully inadequate provision in many parts of Wales--west Glamorgan, for example-- is hardly what the 1944 Act foresaw. I accept the right hon. Gentleman's historical reference, but it does not give me any confidence whatsoever. The point should be mentioned specifically in this Bill. It is clear that, in terms of the provision of Welsh-medium education, some authorities in Wales are completely devoid of respect for the language. It appears that they have failed with complete impunity in this regard--a point that the Minister may wish to consider.

Recently, parents in Cardiff protested about the lack of provision for Welsh-medium education. Indeed, there are plenty of other examples throughout Wales. In some cases, Welsh-medium education is conducted in corridors and in various other locations that place children at a gross disadvantage. There are two sides to the coin, however : this shows that the provision is inadequate, but it shows also that the demand exists. I submit that the demand must be met, and this is the vehicle for making that point clear.

The situations in which the provision is inadequate create understandable animosity. They are concerns that the European charter for regional or minority languages sought to address. Article 8 of that charter provides that member states should make pre-school education, primary education and university and higher education available in the relevant regional or minority languages and should make a substantial part of that education available in the relevant language. That appears to me to be just and correct. The Government have decided not to sign the charter. I have written to the Secretary of State about that point, but I have been given no assurance that the Government will sign. It is ironic that, apparently, the Welsh language is safer in the hands of the European Community than in the hands of the British Government. We as a party supported Maastricht throughout. How right we were!

Welsh language education is assured, according to the Minister of State. He says, and has said in another debate, that being a constituent part of any Welsh language scheme is a matter that falls within clause 6. My view--and that of many others, I am sure--is that this vital provision must be separately spelled out. It is far too important an issue to be left to an agreement between the board and local education authorities, some of which, as I have said, are less than enthusiastic about the language, and have shown that to be the case.

The basic right of parents to secure the provision of Welsh-medium education for their children within a reasonable distance of their homes should and must be safeguarded and specifically provided for in the legislation. Will the board find it easy, for example, to discuss and approve individual language schemes for all the new unitary authorities if or when they come? Is it good sense to have 20 to 25 different education language schemes and policies in Wales? Would not it be much simpler to give here and now, in a separate clause, a pledge that parents have a right to have Welsh-medium education provided for their children within a reasonable distance if that is what they require?

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If--God forbid--the schools of Wales were all to opt out, the task would become even more ridiculous ; then we should have to deal with approval for, I suppose, 2,000 language schemes and policies. Common sense says that that would be ridiculous. In my view, justice for the language also says no. We should be faced with a bureaucratic nightmare, and in the meantime parents' legitimate rights and aspirations would be denied--that would be intolerable. If, as the Minister of State says, the provision of Welsh-medium education is already safeguarded by the wording of the Bill and if, as he says, that is the Government's intention, why should not we be given a clearer exposition to allay the fears of thousands of people in Wales and to avoid the administrative nightmare that must surely follow? After the inordinate delay in presenting the Bill to the House, we owe it to the people of Wales to provide them with the strong, clear Welsh Language Act which they require and which is no more than they deserve.

Another grave shortcoming of the Bill is the lack of provision for empanelling Welsh-speaking juries. This goes to the core of the question of status. In 1575, no less a judge than Sir William Gerrard said that a judge in Wales should be able to understand what a Welsh-speaking witness said in the language spoken--not, it will be noticed, through an interpreter. That is the basis on which the Juries Act 1974 was passed--every juror should understand what is said in English. If there has to be a choice between the hurt feelings of the potential juror and the need for justice to be done, the scales are overwhelmingly weighted in favour of justice. Instantaneous translation, however expert, will not catch the nuances of the original language. As everyone who has taken part in or conducted a trial knows, frequently nuances are everything. The random selection of arguments by the Government, echoed by Lord Ferrers in the other place, is not valid in this context.

The right to a Welsh jury trial is no more a breach of the principle of random selection than was the Privy Council decision in Ras Behari v. the King-Emperor, which was decided in the 1930s. The ratio decidendi was that all jurors empanelled to hear a case in the English language should understand English.

I referred to the point as being a core point. Indeed, in the debate in the other place, it was said that if the right was not enshrined in the legislation, the words about equal validity and about both languages being official would be exposed as a sham. Those were robust words, bearing in mind the forum in which they were spoken, but I have to agree with that view.

The Second Reading debate is not the time to argue about the minutiae of the Bill, but there are strong arguments to counter the objections of random selection, demography, injustice to non-Welsh speakers and others which may come from the Government Benches. My hon. Friend the Member for Caernarfon, in a powerful speech, mentioned other concerns, as have other hon. Members. Regrettably, there is a myriad of points to consider ; they will have to be addressed if the measure is to be meaningful.

I wish to touch on two other concerns : the right of a Welsh speaker to speak Welsh unimpeded wherever he is, including the workplace, and the need for reform of part of the Race Relations Act 1976. Recently, there have been examples of employers telling employees that they must not speak Welsh at their place of work. Two such examples

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occurred in my constituency. They caused widespread offence throughout Wales as well as anguish to those involved. The Bill should be amended to make such behaviour a criminal offence, because in normal parlance it is an offence, so that we do not witness such potentially divisive and harmful actions again.

There have also been cases where employers have advertised for Welsh- speaking staff. There are key areas where staff are required to be Welsh- speaking. We should remember that Cyngor Dosbarth Dwyfor conducts all its business through the medium of Welsh ; it is to be applauded for that. Recently, there have been celebrated cases where unsuccessful applicants, knowing that posts required Welsh speakers, applied for them and subsequently sought recourse in the courts for not being appointed. I believe that the Race Relations Board supported at least one case.

Section 1 of the 1976 Act should be amended to provide for a declaration that, for the purposes of section 1(b) of the Act, a person does not discriminate against another by reason only of the fact that that person applies to another person the requirement or condition that he or she be able to communicate in Wales through the medium of the Welsh language. Such an amendment is necessary to clarify a position which is at best a grey area and which at worst will lead to misunderstanding and antipathy which can only be divisive and harmful.

I reiterate that there is an enormous pool of good will towards the language. Like other hon. Members on both sides of the House, I seek parity for Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers. We are not asking for more. We are asking to be placed in the position that people were in prior to the Act of Union 1536. I urge all hon. Members to respect the rights of Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers in Wales, to make sure that they are protected and to ensure the continued recovery of the language which is so close to the hearts of the people of Wales. Failure to strengthen the Bill will mean that a golden opportunity is lost, perhaps for ever.

8.44 pm

Mr. Sebastian Coe (Falmouth and Camborne) : I do not wish to detain the House long. I hope within a short time to be on my way to my Celtic constituency, not across the Severn, but across the Tamar. I do not speak as a Welshman, a Welsh speaker or a constitutional lawyer ; nor do I wish to bring into question the Act of Union. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) was right to point out that it is incumbent on hon. Members apart from Welsh Members to enhance the development of the Welsh language. I read with interest the other day a quote from Wittgenstein, not the normal bedtime reading in my constituency, which sums up the debate : "The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." Language liberates and furthers understanding. When it is taught well, it can improve national prestige and interest ; when it is taught badly, it hinders and can even incarcerate and imprison. The language of any nation is in itself the main proof and touchstone of the country's existence as a separate nation, or at least as a separate identity. To all intents and purposes, it is the very embodiment of nationhood.

I welcome the Bill. It is good that the Government recognise the importance --I have to choose my words carefully--of a minority language. They recognise that

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there is a philosophical and practical approach to enhancing language. The Welsh language is a vibrant working language, which makes a vital contribution to the cultural breadth of the Union. Hon. Members from both sides have made articulate and important contributions.

It has been pointed out that over the last century Welsh as a spoken language has been on the decline. The 1991 census shows that the decline has been arrested.

Like the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan), we can take some comfort from the fact that the language is being taught in 80 per cent. of primary schools and 90 per cent. of secondary schools. There needs to be consolidation as well. The language should not become irrelevant to youngsters when they leave education. It has to be transplanted into the workplace.

I make one slightly guarded comment. I speak as a past member of two quangos. I am not automatically impressed with the work of quangos. I do not in any way play down the appointment of the chairman today, but, from time to time, quangos make strange decisions. They do not always work in the most cost-effective way in pursuit of their aims.

I speak also with some sadness because I represent a part of the country which lost its language some years ago. A strong Celtic thread runs through Cornwall. There is a distinct culture, whether we talk about Methodism, rugby--most Cornishmen tell me that they taught it to the Welsh, probably not too well, judging by recent results--male voice choirs and brass bands. Two weekends ago we had a twinning in a village in my constituency. The charters were read out and signed in four languages--English, Welsh, Cornish and Breton. It took us slightly by surprise to hear the national anthem of Brittany because it was "Land of our Fathers".

The Celtic tongue is an ancient one : Welsh is an ancient language. If there had been a language Bill many centuries ago, we might be debating a vibrant Cornish language.

I support the Bill because it is important for a language to live, develop and be enhanced. The Minister said that the Welsh Language Act 1563 allowed Wales to have its own translation of the Bible and the Prayer Book. Sadly, Cornwall lost that battle in 1549. Will the Minister and his colleagues look afresh at the signatories to the European charter on minority languages which means a great deal to the Union? Some languages, such as Cornish, are struggling. Cornish does not have thousands of speakers, but people are interested in developing and enhancing it.

The line-by-line debate on the Bill will take place in Committee in a few weeks. Many issues transcend politics and perhaps in that light we can look at the use and enhancement of minority languages. 8.50 pm

Mr. Alan W. Williams (Carmarthen) : It is a pleasure to follow the dignified and positive speech by the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Coe) about our language and the Bill. Throughout this four-hour debate there has been wide consensus, certainly among the Opposition parties, and sometimes it embraced some Conservative Members who would support a much stronger Bill. We welcome the Bill and look forward to debate in Committee where I hope that the Government will allow us to strengthen it. The Labour party and other parties will table amendments to try to increase the Bill's powers.

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I shall summarise five or six areas in which there is wide consensus. First, the principle of equality between Welsh and English must be enshrined in the Bill's first clause. The Government have argued that that is implicit in the Bill, but it needs to be stated loudly and clearly that Welsh and English are equal in the public life and administration of Wales. I would accept a small amendment to the effect that that will be the case where reasonably practicable, because in Gwent and Clwyd and perhaps in Brecon and Radnor and Powys the language has a different status from that which it enjoys in Dyfed and Gwynedd.

My second point is about the extension of the Bill's powers to private utilities, because, as it stands, the Bill applies only to public bodies. Welsh Water, Wales Gas, British Telecom, South Wales Electricity and Manweb deal with every consumer in Britain. There are several other major organisations and I should like to see a schedule covering those. It could not apply to every corner shop, but it should apply widely and cover the clearing banks in Wales, and Boots, Dixons and supermarkets such as Sainsburys and Tesco. I could list 50 or 100 large private bodies to which the legislation should apply. Clause 20 gives Crown immunity to Government Departments and there was a move in the other place to delete that clause. I cannot understand why those Departments should be treated any differently from local authorities. When my constituents write to me in Welsh they will expect an answer in Welsh and it is elementary courtesy so to reply. The same applies to the Welsh Office and its various departments. If equality means anything, it must apply to all letters from Government Departments.

The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) spoke professionally and graphically about Welsh-speaking juries. Given his professional background as a solicitor working in Gwynedd in a strong Welsh-speaking area, he knows about nuances. Many people in Dyfed and Gwynedd are much more fluent in Welsh than in English. They feel much more at home and give better-quality evidence, and the nuances in their evidence are important. Despite the best translation facilities, English-speaking members of juries will not pick up those nuances. It enhances the quality of our justice to allow Welsh speakers to give their evidence in Welsh and to try Welsh speakers before Welsh-speaking juries.

I had a niggling doubt about whether a jury would be biased by such selection, but when I read the speech by Gareth Williams, Lord Williams of Mostyn, in the other place on Welsh-speaking juries, that doubt was removed. If it is good enough for the noble Lord with his distinguished background, it is good enough for me. For reasons of status and equality, the Bill must give a right to have Welsh-speaking juries.

The hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne said that he had an inherent suspicion about the way that quangos work. The Welsh Language Board will be a quango. We may have some reservations about the announcement of its chairman, but we congratulate him. He is a worthy ex-Member of Parliament, he has great ability and citizenship and he is committed to the language. However, we have deep disaffection with the whole idea of quangos. We look forward to the day when there is a Welsh assembly in Cardiff.

Mr. Wigley : A Parliament.

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Mr. Williams : Why not ; let us call it a Parliament. It could have a department to safeguard the language and introduce new laws on it passed by elected members in Wales. The present constitution of the board is arbitrary and gives far too much power of patronage to the Secretary of State. It has a chairman and 15 members, but there is no detailed representation. Those 15 members--if that is to be the number--should be representative of individual organisations in Wales, whether they are dealing with education, local authorities, women's institutes--Merched Y Wawr--or nursery education. The board should reflect the regional diversity of Wales and should include non-Welsh speakers and Welsh learners. That part of the Bill must be considered in more detail.

No hon. Member has referred to the mandamus provision : that the Secretary of State can take action if a defiant local authority or public body refuses to produce a Welsh language scheme for the board. The board cannot institute legal proceedings against a disaffected or dissident public body, and that substantially weakens the powers of the board. I understand that the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Race Relations Board can initiate proceedings. We shall seek in Committee to provide an equal power for the Welsh Language Board. I have two reservations about the Bill. Several references have been made to Welsh-medium education and to its great success throughout Wales, particularly in the anglicised areas of Wales where previously no Welsh-medium education existed. Hon. Members have been lobbied by several organisations during the past few years. They have suggested that the Bill should include a clause that gives Welsh-medium education as of right to all children between the ages of three and 16. I support that suggestion. There should be a right in Cardiff, Swansea, Clwyd and Gwent, as well as in Dyfed and Gwynedd, to Welsh-medium education, wherever that is reasonably practicable and wherever it can be provided within a reasonable distance of home, transport being free of charge.

We must, however, be even handed. An absolutely equivalent right to English -medium education must be provided for those parents who choose that medium for their children. There cannot be one set of rights for one group of people without exactly equivalent rights being granted to everyone else. That is not, however, the case in some parts of Wales.

A complaints body ought to be set up alongside the Welsh Language Board. It is not enough for the board to have a complaints procedure. A separate complaints body should be set up. It could be the ombudsman. There could even be the establishment of a Welsh language ombudsman. I notice that, in its briefing to Members, the Welsh Consumer Council referred to the need for a separate complaints body. Alternatively, there could be a tribunal. I understand that the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Race Relations Board have a tribunal procedure.

The complaints mechanism would have to work both ways. It would have to apply both to a recalcitrant public body--a body that was not implementing a Welsh language scheme--and, conversely, to a public body that was too enthusiastic about the use of the Welsh language. In that case, there could be employment implications.

The Bill is far too weak. It needs to be greatly strengthened. Those who should strengthen it ought to be those Members of Parliament with Welsh constituencies.

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There have been interesting and valuable contributions to the debate from Members of Parliament with constituencies across the border, but legislation that affects Wales should be dealt with by Welsh Members of Parliament. The Secretary of State for Wales referred to the need for consensus. The only way to achieve consensus is to refer the Bill to the full Welsh Grand Committee.

9.3 pm

Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend) : Like all hon. Members who have spoken in the debate, I welcome the opportunity to speak about the Welsh Language Bill. It has been a long time in gestation. It is a great pity that, during that gestation period, we did not get something more like the Welsh Language Bill that has been proposed by the Welsh Language Board, some of whose members have sat patiently throughout the debate in the Strangers' Gallery.

That gives me the opportunity to recognise the contribution of one of my constituents, not just for creating a consensus in Wales but for taking forward positively the use of the Welsh language in Wales, not only as the chairman of the Welsh Language Board but as the chairman of Welsh Water. I am pleased to be able to say those words. We have had many differences about the way in which Welsh Water runs a number of its activities-- particularly in relation to its supply to customers and the charges it makes--but I cannot fault him for the way in which Welsh Water has supported the Welsh language, and the way in which he, as chairman of the Welsh Language Board, has strengthened the possibility of improving the status of the Welsh language beyond what is now in the Bill. I am, of course, referring to Mr. John Elfed Jones.

The issue of equal validity has been mentioned by a number of hon. Members. It seems to me that what is in the Bill at the moment does not really go beyond what the Hughes Parry committee recommended in October 1965. I have to confess that I have not read all of the proceedings in the Lords, but I did, with the help of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), dip into them. On 9 January, Earl Ferrers said that the Bill would be "confirming the official status of the Welsh language across the public sector as a whole."--[ Official Report, House of Lords, 19 January 1993 ; Vol. 541, c. 834.]

It seems to me that it is but a short step to confirm the official status of the Welsh language in Wales.

Mention was made in the Lords debate of some technical legal difficulties, but I hope that either the Opposition can come up with a form of words that the Welsh Office and Government will accept or the Government will put to work the very powerful legal brains in the Welsh Office and other Departments and come up with another form of words to confirm the official status of the Welsh language, not only in the public sector but in all sectors in Wales.

It is good that the Welsh Language Board will be a statutory body, although I have reservations about the creation of yet another quango for the appointment of whose members the Secretary of State will have total responsibility. I hope that in Committee we shall look at ways of enabling a public consultation to take place--perhaps through the Welsh Affairs Select Committee--about people who can represent all walks of life in Wales on this public body.

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One thing that worried me in the opening speech of the Secretary of State was his reference to the educational role of the Welsh Language Board. It seems to me that, in a way, it would undermine some aspects of the work of the Welsh Joint Education Committee, which is very closely connected with the democratic processes in Wales. The Welsh Language Board will not be. If the Welsh Language Board is to fulfil a function in education, it will need specialist sub-committees, for which, according to my reading of the Bill--and I have read the whole of it--there is no provision. Perhaps the Minister of State will be able to point out such a provision.

The Welsh Language Board, in this educational role, could cut across the Curriculum Council for Wales and the Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales which will be set up. There would need to be some very clear definitions of the Welsh Language Board's responsibilities in its educational role.

As has already been pointed out, whatever else the Bill or the Welsh Language Board may do, the fundamentally important area is the development of bilingual education. The Bill says nothing about that ; perhaps we should not expect it to. The Minister should make a statement about the ways in which Welsh bilingual education will be further promoted. In my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) there is great demand for a bilingual secondary school. Mid Glamorgan would dearly love to provide that school, but, with the threat of capping and other problems, it is not able to reserve the capital allocations for that purpose. The Welsh Office has a role to play in providing extra funding to ensure that bilingual education is provided.

Under the heading :

"Financial effects of the Bill"

the Government go out of their way to stress that there will be "no overall increase in public expenditure but where there are additional costs these will be accommodated within mainstream budgets."

Under the Act that established the Development Board for Rural Wales, there is provision for funding for Welsh publications and work. This year, a number of organisations applied, but almost as many as received money did not receive any, including Cyffeillion Y Ddaear Cymru--Friends of the Earth Wales--which has its headquarters in my constituency. It produces a large number of publications in the Welsh language on important environmental issues.

There is a case for money and I sincerely hope that in Committee it will become apparent that the Government are prepared to provide it. 9.11 pm

Mr. John Morris (Aberavon) : We have listened to excellent speeches and I am pleased that all hon. Members who wished to speak have been able to do so.

For longer than most of us can remember, there has been a great deal of striving to reach the consensus to which the Secretary of State referred on the encouragement and improvement of the status of the Welsh language. It has taken more than 400 years to right the wrongs of Henry VIII's legislation which established English as the only official language in Wales. The Welsh language lost its official status not through neglect or misuse, but by Act of Parliament, and only by an Act of Parliament can it be restored.

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The main thrust of the concern of many in both this House and another place is whether the Bill gives the Welsh language a proper legal status, of necessity by another Act of Parliament. It does a great deal, but not enough, Dim da, lle gellirgwell--"Not good where you can get better", as I am obliged to translate.

I welcome the Bill and I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for introducing it. He may well have delivered his swan song this evening in his present capacity. I pay a special tribute to the Minister of State for his considerable efforts over the years. I also pay tribute to Lord Prys- Davies and the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), who both played important roles in providing legislative paving stones. Last but not least- -I am not the only one tonight to sing his praises, so his ears must be burning--I pay tribute to John Elfed Jones, the distinguished chairman of the Welsh Language Board. The first stepping stone towards correcting history was the Welsh Courts Act, introduced when this country was fighting for its very life in 1942. Much later, as a young Member of Parliament, I was asked to prepare a report for the Welsh parliamentary party on the status of the Welsh language. A multi-party delegation of us went to see the then Minister for Welsh Affairs, Sir Keith Joseph, and we suggested the name of David Hughes Parry to chair the committee. The fact that the Minister accepted our recommendation illustrates the bipartisan nature of the approach.

The honour of introducing the Welsh Language Act 1967 fell to my noble Friend Lord Cledwyn. No one should underestimate the difficulties of getting a place in the legislative timetable--an obstacle course that the present Secretary of State has had to surmount. I, for one, fully realise that. I was introducing a Bill a year for Wales, so I know the problems and I congratulate the Secretary of State. Anyone who has been to the Cabinet Committee in July and dealt with such matters knows how difficult it is. It is equally difficult to explain complicated legislative concepts to hard- bitten parliamentary draftsmen. "Da was, da a ffyddlawn"--"Well done, thou good and faithful servant" ; that is for the benefit of another Welsh Presbyterian.

We should not over-estimate the importance of the Bill. Its main purpose is to provide a framework for the exercise of choice. Legislation will not cause the Welsh language to flourish. Only more and more Welsh people using it will do that. The Bill will, however, remove inhibitions and will provide and facilitate the opportunity and machinery for its use. It will improve the conditionguage of the country.

I was a junior Minister of Transport as long ago as 1966 to 1968 and, during that period, the Welsh Office was encouraging greater use of Welsh in formal documents. Even then, every licence application form had to be fought for. Looking back, the counter-arguments now seem bordering on fantasy. A bilingual driving licence application form would be too large physically. That was just one major objection to it. How far have we come in 25 years?

Important as the Bill is, of equal--some might say

greater--importance is section 21 of the Education Act

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1980, which ensures proper provision for costs of Welsh language education. The Government inherited, and honoured, the agreements that I had reached with the Treasury, announced at the Cardiff Eisteddfod to less than universal acclaim in 1978. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his kind remarks. When I went to Caernarfon at Easter 1974 and asked the local education authority what was the extra cost of bilingual education, it was evident that the question had not been previously addressed in that way. My officials mumbled the phrase that it was covered by the rate support grant. After considerable time, the evidence was forthcoming, the Treasury could then be bearded and we introduced a measure which was subsequently adopted, to my total gratitude, by the Conservative Government.

The most encouraging news, of which the Secretary of State has reminded us, is the increase in the ability of the young to speak Welsh, qualified by the observations of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan). It has been all due to the resolve of parents and the work of local education authorities, despite difficulties over resources. It is all very well for the Secretary of State to say that it is a matter for the local education authorities to decide their priorities, but if they have to operate within a ceiling, it is exceedingly difficult to provide for all the necessary good things. If the ceiling is raised, if resources are made available, local authorities' tasks will be that much easier. I return to the more immediate problems identified in the course of the helpful discussions on the Bill in another place and tonight. First, there is the status of the language. The Bill does not provide for statutory bilingualism. It provides that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales, the English and Welsh languages should be treated on a basis of equality. I am not sure what those words mean. I have never come across them before. I am sure that they are sanctified by the Government's legal advisers. However, as we were reminded, on the European Communities (Amendment) Bill the legal advisers of the Foreign Office and the Attorney-General had differing views. I do not know whether the Attorney-General has been consulted on this matter--I suspect not. Government Departments are loth to consult the Attorney-General. At least, that was my experience, much as I desired his advice from time to time.

I share the disappointment in Wales that a better formula has not so far been found to give to the language its proper status. If we came to the situation anew, with a blank sheet of paper, with no history, what is proposed in the Bill might be enough--but the perception of justice is as important as justice itself. Despite the assurances in another place that Welsh is an official language, that it was not the intention to establish Welsh as an official language in the Bill because the Bill reflects the Government's belief that it already is, I am sorry to say that it is not seen as such because, frankly, it is not. Recent history has shown that an extension of the right to use the Welsh language has had to be proved. The reality is that it is not seen as a right.

The Bill goes a long way, but not far enough. The Government must find a formula once and for all to kill off that perception of inequality. I have studied closely every word that has been said in another place. As I understand it, the Government do not lack the will--the problem is to find the legal means to achieve it. I listened carefully to the tenor of the Secretary of State's sympathetic remarks tonight. Three sets of

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amendments were moved in another place, including the occasionally used purpose clause and the ingenious amendment of the noble Lord Hooson. The objections put up would have done credit to the windmills of Don Quixote. I assure the House that no one wants Hansard translated into Welsh. That was one of the objections put in another place.

I invite the Government to try again because, as has been said, they have the means and the powerful body of parliamentary draftsmen to find a formula. Otherwise, the subject will be returned to time after time in a legislative effort to correct the situation. It would be a running sore and the credit that the Government deserve for introducing the Bill would be substantially dissipated.

I come now to the second issue. I welcome the setting up of a statutory board. The fact that the board is statutory means--obviously, perhaps--that it has legal duties and obligations which are--obviously, again--spelt out in legislation. Having set up the Welsh Development Agency, I was determined, despite the considerable lack of enthusiasm inside and outside the Welsh Office, that Mid Wales Development should also be a statutory board and, in the same way, with even more opposition, the Land Authority for Wales--all three of which, I am pleased to say, have survived the ravages of 13 years of Conservative Government.

The board must attract members of high calibre to reflect Welsh-speaking and non-Welsh-speaking Wales, those learning and those who have been described--I had not thought of them in this way--as having had some of the language but have seen it depreciate over the years. That fourth group is clearly important.

The chairman has a key role to play, and I wish Lord Elis-Thomas well in his new appointment. He has a great responsibility to act fairly and properly for the language. Many of the board's problems will be concentrated in non-Welsh-speaking Wales--contrary to those who thought that there might be more in Welsh-speaking Wales. I say that after having thought about it a great deal, as I am sure the Secretary of State has.

The board, and the chairman in particular, will be dealing with public bodies, especially local authorities. As a political animal, the Secretary of State will know the composition of all of them. The chairman, in particular, will have to to tread like Agag--I stress that for the benefit of my Presbyterian friend--to ensure that he acts diplomatically and achieves the best results.

There has been criticism of the lack of an independent element on the board. There is a fear, which to judge from experience is justified, that the Government may pack the board with safe, acceptable placemen. The Secretary of State must guard against that. There is also a fear that it will lack democratic accountability. As so many elected local and public authorities will be involved, may I suggest and commend a formula, whether it be written into the Bill or not? When I set up the Land Authority for Wales in the face of bitter opposition from local government, it was necessary to carry local government with us. In order to constitute part of the membership, we invited the two major local government organisations in Wales--one representing the counties and one the districts--to put up between them four members, of which the Secretary of State would choose two, one from each. That system may still be operating. It certainly did not diminish the Secretary of State's responsibility or circumscribe it unduly.

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Although the two were there as members of the authority, there was some accountability. If there had not been, they might not have been renominated the next time by their constituent organisations. I commend that suggestion to the Secretary of State and hope that he will act on an even wider basis than I felt necessary in the perhaps narrower sphere that I have just described.

There is perhaps an even more respectable precedent than mine. As I understand it, a non-conformist Prime Minister, now Lord Callaghan, declined to take full responsibility for appointing bishops. The practice was for two names to be put forward by the Synod, from which he chose one. That is even more respectable than my system. The bottom line is that the board must have the public's confidence. It has important tasks to perform and must carry public opinion with it. It must not behave outrageously but, if it does, it can be replaced by the Secretary of State in due course. I am especially pleased that the board will advise the Secretary of State on matters affecting the Welsh language and that it will have a promotional role. That will be a very important part of its function. I felt naked at the Welsh Office, not having such a body to advise me on the spending of public money in that sphere.

My advisers at the Welsh Office might have had great experience in health or education, but in this respect it was very limited. Perhaps I may disclose the fact that, soon after going to the Welsh Office, I discovered that my principal adviser, the assistant secretary, did not claim to speak Welsh. It was a bit of a shock, but the situation was corrected fairly soon.

There is a need for such a body to give advice. The Secretary of State mentioned the Eisteddfod. I took a decision on my own initiative, and I was fortunate in persuading the Prime Minister of the day--Lord Wilson, as he now is--while he was coming round the Devil's Bridge falls with me, that what I recommended was the proper thing to do. There is no better place to secure the agreement of the Prime Minister of the day than when one is taking him round the Devil's Bridge falls at a fast pace. I recommend that method to the Secretary of State.

The same happened with Ysgolion Meithrin Cymraeg--the Welsh nursery schools. I was worried at the time about whether either body would accept the offer, but the role is an important one, and I hope that it will provide a valuable service for the Secretary of State. The key to the working of the Bill will be the draft guidelines to be issued by the board after approval by the Secretary of State and by Parliament, and the form of the schemes to be approved by the House in due course. I would fault the Secretary of State here, because I wish that either he or those who spoke on his behalf in another place had set out in more detail what they had in mind for the draft guidelines, and especially what kind of schemes they intended to recommend to the House.

Another matter of concern is the extension of the board's remit to the privatised concerns. As publicly-owned industry becomes more limited, or some of its functions diminish, the role of the board will necessarily diminish. The privatised concerns are monopolies. Some may not be, but one cannot buy water elsewhere from another source and, apart from a few specialist consumers, one cannot buy gas and electricity elsewhere either. Privatised concerns are public organisations, yet if, as my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) said, some of the functions of other public organisations are

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privatised, as with Group 4 or other such companies, even though they will still be part of the public service that runs the prisons, if there is a franchise I doubt whether they will be covered. I lack the confidence that the hon. Member for Caernarfon had in clause 6(1)(o). The Minister of State made it clear that the test would be whether a body was funded from Government sources, so if a franchise were given it would seem that the body was no longer funded by Her Majesty's Government and would therefore be outwith the provisions of the clause. We shall return to the matter in due course, because we feel strongly that whether publicly-owned industries remain public or become private, they are still a vital part of the economy and the life of Wales.

Not the most important issue, but one to which a great deal of symbolism is attached, is the right to trial by jury in Welsh. The argument has been advanced that that right would breach the principle of the random choosing of juries. However, it is only fairly recently that juries have been chosen from among all adults in the country. Until the beginning of this century juries had to be male, and there was a property qualification until fairly recently. In security cases the Attorney-General can override the choice of juries. So that argument cannot stand a proper test. Furthermore, cases can be, and frequently are, moved to other parts of the country where there will be a bigger pool.

The real mischief with which we have to deal is the perception of unfairness which arises from the fact that one can be tried in Welsh in a magistrates court but not if the case is sent for trial to a Crown court. No answer was given to that problem in another place. Translation, however good, however improved it may be, can never be as satisfactory. Juries judge witnesses by their demeanour, their nuances and their reflexes. It is my professional experience that a translation is never as good as the real thing.

My next concern is the interface with the race relations and equal opportunities legislation. An amendment was proposed in the other place which, with some refinement, met with the approval of the Race Relations Board. It was a shock to many of us that there has been litigation on those issues in the past few years. When the legislation was conceived, whether I was a Minister or a Back Bencher--I think that I was a Minister both times- -it was never thought that the issues of race and equality of opportunity would impinge on the Welsh language. It is a novel concept that there was a right of action arising from those matters.

A great deal of concern was expressed in another place that the Bill will not bind other Government Departments. In view of the statements made there, and those of the Secretary of State tonight, I do not share all of the doubts about this matter. Obviously, one Secretary of State cannot be superior to another one--it goes right across the whole concept of a Secretary of State. The Committee may want to return to that matter and perhaps argue why the Race Relations Board can take another Minister to court whereas the Welsh Language Board will not. However, I do not share the apprehension that has been expressed.

Hon. Members have listened patiently all day, especially to my speech, and I am grateful to them. We

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have come a long way socially and legally since Tudor times. I have a little recollection of my grandfather, who went to school between 1875 and 1882--he went for only seven years because he left at the age of 12 and went down the pit at 13. He told me about the "Welsh not". Although historians argue about this, about 1861 when teachers were paid by results--history seems to be repeating itself in part--Welsh children were tested on English reading, English writing and arithmetic, but no allowance was made for the fact that they came from Welsh-speaking homes. The "Welsh not" was put around a child's neck if he or she spoke Welsh in the playground or anywhere else and it had to be worn until it was passed on. We have come a long way since then. I welcome the Bill. Once it is improved in Committee, it will be important and I thank the Government for introducing it. 9.36 pm

The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : It is clear that there is no real opposition in the House to the Bill--there has been criticism, but not outright opposition. I am grateful to all parties for their forbearance. I particularly welcome all the supportive speeches that we have heard, including that of the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) with all his experience as a former Secretary of State. I also give special thanks to English Members from over the border for their supportive speeches--my hon. Friends the Members for Mid- Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) and for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Coe).

I assure all hon. Members who have spoken that we shall consider their views carefully at all stages of the Bill, as we have considered, and are still considering, the views nobly expressed in another place and those that are still coming from Wales. If we can improve the Bill by amendment or new clauses, we shall endeavour to do so, but first we must be convinced that whatever change is proposed is genuinely for the betterment of the Bill and those who are likely to be affected by it. Hon. Members will expect no softer proviso than the one I have just given.

We are legislating in a highly sensitive area in which I believe--the more I hear--it is easier to make mistakes than be right. Therefore, hon. Members will understand our cautionary approach. I assure the House that that is dictated not by stubbornness but by sensitivity.

At this point, I pay tribute to the considerable thought and work that has been put into the Bill by not only the Welsh Language Board and the Welsh Office but other Departments of State, my colleagues in the Government and their officials, all of whom, without exception, have tried to be as helpful as possible during the months in which the Bill has been prepared.

The House will recognise that the Bill is an important element in the Government's wider policy of support for the Welsh language, which is now accepted as part of Britain's heritage. That policy of support has found expression in many forms in the past 14 years, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State reminded the House at the beginning of the debate. That policy has certainly inspired confidence in the future of the language and inspired those who work for it to ever greater endeavour and achievement.

Our policy is aimed at supporting the language wherever it is spoken. It is a policy for the whole of Wales and all the people of Wales. I assure my hon. Friend the

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Member for Monmouth (Mr. Evans) of our continuing sensitivity to different parts of Wales and, indeed, the flexibility that is possible within the Bill so that different parts of Wales can be given different treatment.

I advise those who criticise the Bill for being weak, inadequate or a paper tiger--as the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) called it--to consider its scope. It will, after all, extend to every branch of public sector service in Wales. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has reiterated today that that will include Government Departments and their agencies. To all intents and purposes, therefore, it will be as if a formal duty were placed on such organisations.

Welsh-speaking consumers will be consulted during the preparation of schemes. Schemes to be submitted to the board will have to contain proposals for giving effect to the principle of equality as set out in the Bill, as well as a timetable according to which they will be implemented.

The general policy for the introduction of schemes is intended to be flexible but comprehensive. The task of introducing schemes throughout the public sector will, by anyone's definition, be a major undertaking. The board will therefore need to consider the rate at which it believes that it can introduce schemes and those parts of the public sector to which it will accord particular priority. There will therefore need to be a phased introduction of schemes, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already made it clear that he would expect priority to be given to schemes introduced by the major public sector employers in Wales. That will, of course, include Government Departments and their agencies.

I believe that we can leave it to the board to ensure that there is no unnecessary delay in introducing schemes. The board will be able to judge the timetable that is appropriate, according to the particular circumstances of each body. It is important that schemes are in place as quickly as possible, but it is just as important that they should be schemes that can last. The machinery that we propose needs to be considered with that thought in mind.

The legislation will achieve nothing if it serves only to promote short- term measures that bring about temporary alleviation for Welsh speakers. If public sector organisations are to make a lasting contribution to the establishment of an environment in which the Welsh language can prosper, schemes must be devised that will stand the test of time. Schemes must therefore be able to change as the expectations of Welsh speakers change. The Bill provides for that. Individual schemes can be amended, where appropriate, so can the board's guidelines. Therefore, not only is the Bill intended to have an impact right across the public sector, but its effects will be lasting. We are setting the board a serious challenge, to which I am sure that it will be anxious to respond.

It is clear that clause 6(1)(o) will attract a great deal of interest. The type of body that will meet the test contained in that subsection is one that, in the first place, appears to the Secretary of State to be exercising functions of a public nature. We have been advised that a body that is funded by the Government--for example, the training and enterprise councils--may satisfy the test, if it falls within the definition contained in the subsection.

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