House of Commons Hansard Debates for 7 Jun 1993

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Chancellor of the Duchy explain why another attitude seems to have been taken by the Department of Trade and Industry? For example, the ceramic, scientific and research establishment in Stoke-on -Trent is waiting for the Department of Trade and Industry to provide £190,000 that is desperately needed. How does that square with the contents of the White Paper?

Mr. Waldegrave : I will, of course, pursue with my colleague the specific matter that the hon. Gentleman raises and write to him. The Department of Trade and Industry has been reviewing its grant schemes and has refocused them, particularly on small and medium-sized firms, which is right. Perhaps that review has delayed matters in this case. I will find out for the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Robert Jackson : My right hon. Friend's important White Paper is based on a careful balance between considerations of utility in science and considerations of scientific excellence. Will he assure us that, in implementing the White Paper's provisions, he will pay proper regard to considerations of scientific excellence, especially in relation to the research councils?

Mr. Waldegrave : I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the major part that he played in writing the White Paper. His has been a clear voice for science in his constituency and in his work in my Department. I thank him for that. I can give the House the assurance that he seeks. Nothing in the White paper detracts from the importance of the best basic research. We need to do such research, but it must be done against the background of closer interaction between the science base and industry.

Disabled People

29. Mr. Gunnell : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what plans he has to publish a comprehensive charter for the disabled.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of Public Service and Science (Mr. David Davis) : None. All charters should address the needs of all those who use the service.

Mr. Gunnell : I am sure that the Minister is well aware of the fact that organisations representing different categories of disabled people are extremely anxious to see comprehensive legislation on their behalf and that 297 hon. Members have signed an early-day motion relating to such legislation. Will he think again about providing at least a citizens charter that would cater for those who are disabled and would tell them what they can expect in a civilised society, even from this Government?

Mr. Davis : The Government understand the hon. Gentleman's point of view. However, the best approach to charters is a service-by-service approach. That is because the people working in that service have targets and performance measures that they can seek to achieve in the interests of the disabled. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be interested to hear that 27 out of the 31 charters contain a direct reference to disabled people.

Mr. Thurnham : I warmly welcome my hon. Friend as he makes his debut at the Dispatch Box. Will he confirm that the Government's commitment to people with disabilities is shown by the trebling in real terms of expenditure on the disabled? Is not that a far better record than the Labour

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party ever had when it was in power? Has any other Government programme shown such a big increase in spending?

Mr. Davis : I thank my hon. Friend for his congratulations. I shall try to be as helpful to the House in this role as I was in my last. He is quite right to say that the Government have trebled their real commitment to the disabled in the past 15 years. That is not all we have done. We have also made progress on legislation targeted at giving access to new non- domestic buildings, at employment--85,000 disabled people have been helped by specialist advisers--at transport and at many other sectors. That will continue for the future of the Government.

Mr. Wigley : I also welcome the Minister, and look forward to his giving the House the same benefit he gave it in his last job. However, may I press the hon. Gentleman on the need for disabled people to know what is available to them? In an ideal world, that should be by comprehensive legislation such as anti-discrimination legislation. If such legislation is not forthcoming, there most certainly needs to be a citizens charter. If no such citizens charter is forthcoming, will the Minister add his voice to ensuring that we have an anti-discrimination Bill in the next Session of Parliament?

Mr. Davis : I thank the hon. Gentleman, although I shall not call him my hon. Friend. The reality is that disabled people want practical assistance and practical access to the services that the Government provide, and we are trying to provide that practical service. For example, as part of the new experimental charterline telephone service that we are providing to tell citizens in the east midlands about Government services, there is a minicom service to help hearing-impaired people. Throughout our policy, everything that we do reflects that practical commitment to giving real access to the disabled.

Mr. Sheerman : While welcoming the Minister to his new position, may I ask him to be more vigorous on behalf of people with a disability? That is what they are, as there are no disabled people in our country. All people with a disability and their organisations have consistently asked not only for a charter, but for a commission to safeguard their rights. Is not it about time that his Government listened to the voice of people with a disability and acted in their interests?

Mr. Davis : I am not going to bandy politically correct words with the hon. Gentleman. My interest is in providing the best service possible. That is what we are trying to do. He may think that that is not the right approach, but we are interested in delivering a good service to every single person suffering from a disability.

Citizens Charter

31. Mr. Jonathan Evans : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether the Government intend to publish a further White Paper on the progress of the citizens charter.

Mr. Waldegrave : Yes, in due course. That will show that excellent progress continues to be made.

Mr. Evans : Does my right hon. Friend recognise that education is one of the sectors where there is a

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demonstrable need for greater accountability on the part of educationists? Will he confirm that, in due course, arrangements will be made for the parents charter to be adjusted to reflect the additional information that will be forthcoming once the Government have ensured that national curriculum testing has been implemented throughout the country?

Mr. Waldegrave : I can confirm my hon. Friend's remarks. It is extraordinary and wrong that, in this most crucial of all public services, some people are trying to prevent publication of comparative information-- despite the fact that almost right across the public sector such information is being made available. The majority of people, both in the House and the country, will regret the current action to block testing.

Mr. Barnes : We used to have serious Question Times about issues such as energy before the Government disbanded the Department of Energy. Now, there are questions about charters, which are a complete and utter waste of time. Does not the Minister think that it is about time that some serious issues were brought before the House?

Mr. Waldegrave : I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has contributed to serious questions because he has not even asked one. Surely he is aware that his Front-Bench spokeswoman, the hon. Member for Redcar (Ms Mowlam), is so keen on charters that she has claimed that she invented them herself. The hon. Gentleman may be a little out of tune with his Front Bench.

Reinventing Government"

32. Mr. Alan Howarth : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement on his meeting with the authors of "Reinventing Government".

Mr. Waldegrave : I have had meetings with both authors and have been impressed by the way in which they have put forward proposals very similar to ours in the citizens charter, aimed at getting better performance out of public services at a time of spending restraint.

Mr. Howarth : Does my right hon. Friend agree that for a considerable number of years the Government have been putting in place many of the elements of what Osborne and Gaebler term "entrepreneurial government"? Rather than mock the citizens charter, would not the Labour party do better to learn from it?

Does my right hon. Friend further agree that if the approach outlined in "Reinventing Government" is to be developed further here, as I believe it must be, two implications follow--we will need a new and better concordat between central and local government and we shall need more freedom of information?

Mr. Waldegrave : On the latter two points, first, the Government have made it clear that they want good relations with local government. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister recently met the leaders of the various associations. Secondly, I assure my hon. Friend that no other Government have taken such steps to widen the publication of information.

On the Osborne and Gaebler point, I shall quote Joe Rogaly, an independent journalist who writes in the Financial Times. He said about the Labour party :

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"It is as if it not only missed the Osborne and Gaebler bus, it never saw it coming."

That is an accurate description of the Labour party's understanding of these issues.

Ms Mowlam : I want to clarify one point. The Labour party did create charters at the local authority level--in York, Birmingham and Leicester-- before the Minister even thought of them. The distinct point is that charters actually work at the local level because there is commitment to accountability and freedom of information, which is not shared by the Government. The Minister was fulsome in his praise of "Reinventing Government" and he quoted Joe Rogaly. Is he aware that the authors said that if market testing is just about skimping on wages, the Government should re-evaluate what they are doing? The authors of the Minister's favourite book asked for that, and for some time we have been asking for a moratorium on market testing. It now appears that the Minister will not meet his targets for market testing that he wanted to achieve by September. Is he now listening to us about moratoriums on market testing as well as about charters?

Mr. Waldegrave : It is not my job to sort out the problems within the Labour party on this matter. Perhaps the hon. Lady should have some discussions with her hon. Friends. It is clear that she has not read the book, which has a strong passage in support of market testing. Obviously, she has also not read the White Paper "Competing for Quality". It is not just about cutting costs ; it is about quality. If we can get quality at lower costs, that is certainly what we should do.

Mr. Anthony Coombs : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the principles of Osborne and Gaebler is that both national and local government should be steering rather than rowing, to put it in their terms? Is not that in line with the Government's commitment to contracting out? Are there not lessons for Labour local authorities, especially education authorities, in their attitude towards grant-maintained schools, which have precisely the independence that is so lauded by Osborne and Gaebler?

Mr. Waldegrave : My hon. Friend is right, although I think that some far-seeing people on the left also understand that. I am sorry that the Opposition do not. John Willman, who used to run the Fabian Society, wrote :

"In the UK it has been the Conservatives under John Major who have seized the reinventing' government agenda."

That is true.

Research Vessel Service

33. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what consultation he has had regarding the future of the research vessel service at Barry, Glamorgan.

Mr. David Davis : None. That matter is for the Natural Environment Research Council.

Mr. Morgan : Notwithstanding that buck-passing answer, and despite my earlier congratulations to the Minister on his elevation from the Whips Office, does he agree that the key to the research vessel service's move to Southampton, if it does occur, is that it must remain an independent facility available to all marine science and oceanography university departments and other research bodies in the United Kingdom? The NERC's latest

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proposal is that the service will become part of Southampton university's department of oceanography, so the marine science departments in Cardiff, Cambridge, Bangor, Aberdeen and elsewhere believe that they will get the mucky end of the stick and that Southampton will run the whole show. Does the Minister agree that that contradicts the original purpose of the service's move from Barry to Southampton?

Mr. Davis : The hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but I did not realise that universities had become closed societies. The intention behind moving the facility to Southampton is to create a world-class centre for research and development and training on one site, which will make more efficient use of resources and improve support for staff and students. All that is to be welcomed.

Mr. Mark Robinson : Can my hon. Friend confirm that the research vessel service is a classic example of the kind of NERC facility that could be put out to market testing? Should not more NERC services be put out for market testing?

Mr. Davis : My hon. Friend is correct. It is our intention to put out the operational side of the research vessel service to market testing. We would expect to see improved efficiency and quality of service arising from that.

Citizens Charter

34. Mr. Wareing : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what representations he has received from disabled people's organisations in respect of the citizens charter.

Mr. David Davis : My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster had a constructive meeting with the all-party disablement group in December 1992.

Mr. Wareing : My question referred to "disabled people's organisations". Does the Minister think it right--citizens charter or no citizens charter--that a disabled person should be shown the door of a public house simply because he or she is deaf? Does he believe that it is right for it to be legal to discriminate against a disabled person, who can be ejected from a cinema or prevented from taking out an insurance policy? Is that first-class citizenship for the disabled? Will the Government legislate against such practices? If not, what will the Minister do about them?

Mr. Davis : Obviously, no one approves of the sort of behaviour to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The solution is not the creation of legal rights specific to people with disabilities. That would not be practical or effective.

Scientific Links (Japan)

35. Dr. Michael Clark : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what measures his Department is taking to improve Britain's scientific links with Japan.

Mr. David Davis : I can announce that an advisory group is being set up by the Office of Science and Technology to advise the Government on developing links

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with not only Japan but all Pacific rim countries. Later this year, we shall host the third in a series of high- level, round-table talks between senior science policymakers from the United Kingdom and Japan. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy will visit Japan in the autumn.

Dr. Clark : Can my hon. Friend confirm that when bilateral meetings with the Japanese take place to discuss scientific links, they will truly be two-way dialogues? Does he agree that it would be inappropriate for us to continue to provide ideas for the Japanese to develop without a balance of information in the opposite direction?

Mr. Davis : My hon. Friend voices a widespread belief, which is not entirely unfounded, that Japanese business scours the world for free ideas. One has to say, who can blame them?--[ Hon. Members :-- "Oh."] The reality is, if Opposition Members will wait for it, that Japan is paying hundreds of billions more every year in royalties to purchase licences, and so on. It is in our interests to encourage that, because we receive more than £1 billion a year in royalty and licence income. As to my hon. Friend's specific question, the White Paper, "Realising our Potential", set out our way of making the best use of British research. That includes technology foresight, which is a Japanese technique for achieving the very aims to which my hon. Friend referred. We will, of course, seek to make the meetings, as my hon. Friend said, a two-way dialogue.

Departmental Papers

36. Mr. Wicks : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what criteria are applied in decisions on whether to make departmental policy papers available to the public.

Mr. Waldegrave : Ministers and their Departments have a duty to give Parliament and the public as full information as possible about the policies, decisions and actions of government, within necessary constraints such as considerations of national security, protection of privacy and confidentiality of advice given by civil servants to Ministers.

Mr. Wicks : Given the Government's alleged commitment to open government and freedom of information, and given that national security implications are not involved, will the Minister arrange for the publication of the review contained in the public expenditure departmental papers? If he is able to do that, will he also arrange for me to pop round and look at some of the papers this afternoon?

Mr. Waldegrave : No. Discussions within government leading to public expenditure decisions should be--and would be, under any freedom-of- information regime in the world--private to government until those decisions are made.

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