| Previous Section | Home Page |
Mr. Norris : The right hon. Gentleman's proposition was suggested by Tower Hamlets borough council. He is right to think that there is some superficial appeal in the idea of an alternative route such as the one that he proposes. I asked the promoters and BR to look carefully at it, because I have a great deal of sympathy with much of what the right hon. Gentleman has said. They, however, advised me and the crossrail team in unequivocal terms that the alternative does not meet some of the central decongestion criteria that the project is designed to deliver. I will not elaborate now ; suffice it to say that the idea has been examined and, unfortunately, had to be rejected.
Mr. Shore : I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. I am sure that such connected studies should be a permanent feature of transport planning in central and Greater London.
Another recent change since 1988 has been the cut in London Underground's core budget, announced in the 1992 autumn statement. That cut amounted to 30 per cent. Instead of investment of about £860 million in the financial year 1993-94, the autumn statement showed a huge cut, to £570 million. It will continue in the following years. Given the impact that those cuts in the core budget will have, we should think rather carefully before embarking on more major capital expenditure. The cuts will have a serious effect on London. They will result in delay to the upgrading of the Northern line, so that completion cannot be achieved until at least 2004, and deferral of essential track replacement programmes.
Implementation of the east London line extension will be deferred by two years and no station refurbishment will start in 1993-94. The refurbishment of the interior of District and Metropolitan line rolling stock will be cancelled, as will work on the modernisation of various signals. Improvement programmes for public address systems will also be deferred. Surely there is a serious
Column 226
argument for spending whatever money we have available on upgrading the existing core network before embarking on a new project of this kind.Another change made since 1988 has some bearing on the matter--the privatisation of British Rail, which, along with London Regional Transport, is sponsoring the crossrail project. The position is quite interesting. Under the previous arrangements, although the crossrail line will require 70 new train sets, British Rail had to account financially for only about six--the difference being made up by redeployment of orders already made for other services. As long as BR continued as a large organisation, such redeployments seemed reasonable, allowing a certain flexibility. The question that now arises is whether that flexibility can be retained. If it cannot, will there not be a substantial increase in the capital cost of crossrail?
I believe that the questions that I have raised justify a thorough and up- to-date review of crossrail's costing. If we have the costing, let it be published, together with the costings of alternative rail projects in London.
Another consideration, which has already been aired, must throw serious doubt on the whole project. The financing of crossrail will depend substantially on a major private sector contribution. I asked the Minister about the report from Warburgs and Bechtel, and we have had some exchanges about the matter. On 26 May, he told me : "The basis on which the private sector would contribute to the cost of the project will not be settled by 8 June."--[ Official Report, 26 May 1993 ; Vol. 225, c. 571. ]
It is a pity that we could not use the information in today's debate.
The Minister tried to assure us that the private sector was willing and able to provide substantial finance. I did not find his argument entirely convincing--he may wish to intervene. My hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Poplar (Ms Gordon) rightly mentioned the difficulty involved in the financing of the Jubilee line extension. Private sector money was raised because it served an obvious developmental purpose. As long as it was viable, Olympia and York considered the development attractive and was prepared--as a large firm--to make substantial sums available.
As we know, the firm is now in grave difficulties. The firms that have tried to take over from it, and the banks associated with it, have encountered considerable problems in agreeing to raise £400 million-- which, although it is a considerable amount, is only about a quarter of the total cost.
In this instance, if I understood the Minister aright, we are talking about much more than a quarter of the cost of crossrail. This rail development could involve up to 50 per cent. private finance. I wonder how that will attract the private sector. For one thing, the crossrail project does not present the necessary developmental incentive : there is no Olympia and York standing at the end of the line, saying, "Come to me." The return on capital must be substantial to attract private capital on the required scale, given the investment alternatives.
Am I right in thinking that one essential component of the deal that the Minister is working out is that private return will be subsidised or that return on capital will be guaranteed by the Government? Both those methods may help the Minister to get around the PSBR restraints. I should like to be sure that I am following his thoughts correctly.
Column 227
Mr. Norris : The right hon. Gentleman is correct to say that the Jubilee line extension is about a developer contribution--no more, no less. It is a big developer contribution, but great value is being delivered. The right hon. Gentleman is correct to say that Olympia and York had no difficulty with that. Of ceman is correct to say that this is a different beast. It is a joint venture in which the Government foresee the partner taking on a much more proactive role as risk taker. It will earn a reward based on revenues that it will have some responsibility for generating by making its service attractive. It will earn a return on its investment that will be paralleled by investment from the public sector in order to reflect the non-user benefits--benefits that are real but are not captured by the fare box.
That is a straightforward concept. The right hon. Gentleman is a distinguished former Secretary of State and has dealt with similar projects. He is fair in his dealings with this matter. This is where we put the private sector in the driving seat, not endeavouring to earn a return across the whole of the potential capital outlay, but recognising that the public sector will contribute that which reflects the non-fare box benefits to the community.
In that context, the fact that the contribution will be substantially larger is of no great significance. It is a different type of project attracting a different type of participant.
Mr. Shore : That gives us a clearer idea of what is in the Minister's mind. I suspect that subsidy and guarantees on return of capital will be necessary to get any significant private investment because these rail projects are not inherently profitable. They are not natural areas for private investment of the scale that is now being thought of.
Given the state of our knowledge, the lack of an up-to-date survey of the project, the lack of a review of the alternatives and the hazy view of the funding arrangements, it would not be sensible for the House to give the Bill a Second Reading now. Therefore, I urge strongly that hon. Members support my motion to delay consideration of the Bill for another six months.
9.7 pm
Mr. Terry Dicks (Hayes and Harlington) : I blocked this motion, together with the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), mainly because of the suggestion of a construction at Hayes which will allow trains on the crossrail link to go into Heathrow. I have no real objection to crossrail in principle, but I wonder whether the promoters of the Bill--London Underground and British Rail--should be allowed to play with model railways on the front room floor, let alone be involved in a project as important as this. I should have thought that their track record should preclude them from being involved. That is a personal view built up after sitting for seven years on the Transport Select Committee. It seems strange that the promoters want to expand from the original concept of going east-west and west-east through London to pop in to Heathrow to fill up the gaps that will be left by the Heathrow express. As I said to my hon. Friend the Minister in an intervention, the idea of the Heathrow express was put to my constituents on the basis
Column 228
that it was essential to bring people from London, Paddington on a fast link to Heathrow because the underground and road links are bad. They were told that when the Paddington-Heathrow express was introduced, there would be no need for additional rail access to Heathrow.My constituents reluctantly accepted it. I opposed it throughout and voted against it. We lost, but that is democracy. Now we have the concept of a fast link through London. The promoters say there will be a train from Paddington to Heathrow every 15 minutes and are wondering if they can slot in two or perhaps four additional trains a hour. They do not understand how it will affect people in my constituency.
Mr. Dicks : The hon. Gentleman from a sedentary position says "Come on," but perhaps he should be aware that local opposition is mainly from the Labour party. My opponent at the last election is acting as the spokesman for petitioners against this scheme. Before he makes those comments and before those on the Labour Front Bench are so quick to support crossrail, perhaps they should bear in mind the fact they are talking with a forked tongue, locally and in the House.
Mr. Snape : I realise that any argument that the hon. Gentleman puts forward will be carefully weighed intellectually. He appears to be saying that he reluctantly accepted a railway line through his constituency, but that his constituents' lives would be more disturbed if that railway line were used by trains on a regular basis. With the greatest of respect, even from someone of the intellectual flexibility of the hon. Gentleman that appears not to be too sound an argument.
Mr. Dicks : The hon. Gentleman, with all his clever witticisms, has missed the point. He does not understand that the additional construction works needed for the crossrail trains will produce a worse environment for my constituents than there would have been with only the Heathrow express. If he feels that the lives of my constituents are so unimportant that he can be flippant, perhaps he should talk to his Labour party friends in my constituency, who feel even more strongly than I do. His flippant remarks, first from a sedentary position, are normal for the hon. Gentleman and are perhaps one reason why he has moved from the Labour Front Bench to the Back Bench. Mr. Spearing : Three years ago when the Heathrow-Paddington fast link was proposed, I asked some questions about its extension into central London and the City. Are not the hon. Gentleman and his constituents, whatever their political allegiance, acting under some misapprehension? Is it not likely that there will be a service from Heathrow into Paddington and beyond, perhaps at 15-minute intervals and perhaps stopping at Southall or Ealing Broadway, which would be a very fast service and would perhaps provide a superior service to him, his constituents and users of Heathrow airport and not stopping at Paddington but going straight through?
Mr. Dicks : That may well be the case, but if there are to be trains going past the homes of my constituents every 15 minutes and guarantees and assurances are given along the lines of the development of the Heathrow express, the
Column 229
proposal that trains should be going past their homes constantly throughout the day is rather mean, to say the least.The small viaduct that allows trains to come out of Hayes station and turn left towards Heathrow will have to be extended for the crossrail trains. I do not think it is as flippant a matter as the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) does.
Those who use Heathrow airport are beginning to believe that the need to develop the airport is of paramount importance for economic and financial reasons and to hell with the local community. The airport exists within the community and there has to be give and take on both sides.
Some airlines now want to fly their aeroplanes through the night. People want to extend the activities at Heathrow to the inconvenience of my constituents. Now crossrail wants to fill in the gaps between trains on the Heathrow express. Those people have to be reminded there is a community of people who live under the flight paths of aeroplanes at Heathrow with all the trials and tribulations. That should be brought to the attention of the promoters so that they bear it in mind in their further considerations.
Incidentally, my hon. Friend the Minister said just now that many of these matters are matters for the Committee. I was on the Committee which looked into the Dartford-Thurrock crossing and which made a unanimous recommendation about wind protectors on the bridge. When it came back to the Floor of the House, his Department overruled us and the Minister refused to believe what the Committee had decided. So how can we be sure that whatever the private Bill Committee suggests will be accepted by him and by his colleagues and pushed through? One does not know.
There is the problem of compensation. Perhaps I may read a short extract from a letter that I have received from a constituent : "When the CPO is served we hope to move to another site but the compensation system will not provide funds in sufficient time to build another factory and gradually transfer production so that our work flow and output remain unaffected."
My constituent feels that if compensation arrangements can be made in good time ahead of the change, to enable his firm to move its facilities, keep its business and service its customers' needs, it will be helpful, but the indications are that this will not happen. I just wonder why something cannot be done about that.
It is interesting that at the time of the Budget the impression after the Chancellor's speech was that crossrail would be on a back burner. For some strange reason that has yet to be explained, it has suddenly come forward at a rush, with no indication of where the private sector finance is to come from. Will the Minister explain in due course why we have moved from putting it on the back burner to this effort to get the thing moving? My constituents are rightly concerned about this and, regardless of the views of some Opposition Members, they expect their views to be heard and taken into consideration by the promoters. They would just like to know what is going to happen.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes), as a Whip, cannot take part in the debate, but he is with us on the Front Bench. I know that he wishes to welcome the Second Reading and the important new rail
Column 230
connnections and speedier services that crossrail will bring for his constituents. He is grateful to the crossrail team for its careful work that led to the West Harrow sidings being moved to the north side of the tracks. These sidings will therefore be away from the houses in The Gardens, West Harrow which would otherwise be badly affected by the building work and the line when completed. My hon. Friend would also like to pay tribute to the residents of The Gardens who campaigned with great skill and determination for this very sensible change --in particular, Mrs. Russell, who is not in the first flush of youth, but who provided the drive and enthusiasm for their campaign. A second petition from my hon. Friend's constituents was drawn up by the Pinner South residents association. They and my hon. Friend are grateful to the crossrail team for the time and trouble that it has taken to answer their concerns. Provided that a few matters of interpretation of commitments are tidied up, the Pinner South residents association will withdraw its petition on a "first house" basis. What is vital to the association is that, where people have their whole outlook changed, trees and shrubs should be planted wherever feasible by crossrail to limit the intrusion.I say that because my hon. Friend is unable to take part in the debate. My view is that of strong opposition to crossrail, not in its concept but in this minor change to Heathrow, whereas the views that I have put forward on behalf of my hon. Friend are fully in support of the crossrail scheme.
9.17 pm
Mr. Nick Harvey (North Devon) : I shall briefly restate the support of the Liberal Democrats for the concept of crossrail and for this Second Reading, which is a vital but rather belated step along the way.
It is regrettable that the Government have not been more forthcoming about the financing of the scheme because, as other hon. Members have said, their record on other major transport infrastructure projects, such as the channel tunnel high-speed link and the Jubilee line extension, has not been encouraging. The danger is that we will see a repeat performance with this, and some of the remarks by the Minister in his intervention in the speech of the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) have not given much encouragement in this regard.
I wonder why he is unable to acknowledge that the crossrail scheme is not entirely a commercial viability and therefore to recognise the concept of what I think he describes as a social benefit which will accrue from it. Then it is assumed that the Government should calculate that by seeing what the private sector is willing to put up by way of finance and assuming that the remainder is the balance. There is a gap between those two and it is essential that the Government fill that gap if the whole thing is ever to come about, because a perfect marketplace does not, and never will, exist. During the recession it has been very difficult to get the private sector to come forward with the money for these projects. This was unfortunate because, with 500,000 construction workers unemployed, many of them could have been carried out at a much better price than will be achieved when they finally get under way, if indeed they ever do.
Column 231
The need for a project of this sort is clear. The increase in passenger traffic during the 1980s and the projections of further passenger growth in the decades to come are compelling arguments and make it necessary to carry out this project as quickly as possible. The overcrowding on other services in the capital is becoming unbearable already and, if the situation at Liverpool street, for example, can be improved, it will undoubtedly benefit many people in east London and west Essex, as the Minister mentioned earlier. The earlier comments by hon. Gentleman to the effect that there was no connection between the drastic announcement from ABB and the delay in this project-- some two years between the Bill being deposited and its coming forward for Second Reading--were very strange. I think there is a clear and obvious connection. The order for class 341 trains to the value of £500 million on the order books of that company might have helped to avoid this week's unfortunate announcement.I refer briefly to some of the problems. Without wishing to involve myself in the constituency affairs of the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), I have been approeached, as I am sure have many right hon. and hon. Members, by the London borough of Tower Hamlets, whose concern on behalf of its residents is understandable. There will undoubtedly be a price to be paid by people living in the area which the right hon. Gentleman has described. I endorse his suggestion that, if no more acceptable solution can be found, the prospect of a tunnel all the way to Stratford should not be lightly cast aside.
Compensation will be a matter of considerable concern to many and varied interests. That is something which the Committee will have to consider, as is the fact that many churches which are old and vulnerable structures are likely to be particularly at risk. I believe that the House should give a Second Reading to the Bill as a statement of faith in London's future, but I believe strongly that the comments that have been made about the financing need to be addressed if this is not to become a complete white elephant. 9.22 pm
Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) : First, I want to add my congratulations to those offered by my hon. Friends to my neighbour in Buckinghamshire, my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington). It is pretty arduous and demanding to have a Bill and a baby at the same time. Which one will prove the more demanding only the passage of time will tell.
It is amazing that Network SouthEast moves 426,000 people in and out of London every day, out of the total of 1,042,000 who enter London during the peak hours between 7 and 10 am. We therefore have the problem, to which other hon. Members have alluded, of improving the existing system. We need to increase the capacity and flexibility of our public transport system, which continues to grow under ever-growing demands. The system needs modernising because we need to be able to attract more users off the roads and to provide visitors to and residents in our capital city with the system that they need. It therefore gives me great pleasure to welcome today the progress on the crossrail project, which is badly needed, in my view, to refresh parts that other transport proposals have not yet reached in our city.
Column 232
I should like to congratulate the engineers who have been working so hard on the crossrail project. Given that a White Paper on science and technology--the first for 20 years--has been produced recently and that we are starting to value the contribution of engineers to our society, they deserve a mention in the debate. I am sure that many of my hon. Friends will join me in recognising their great contribution to technology.As we have heard, the project will relieve overcrowding, both now and in the future, and will contribute to the infrastructure of the City, helping it to retain its position as a world leading financial centre. As a freeman of the City of London, I emphasise that that is close to my heart. The City of London corporation strongly supports the scheme, which it believes is good news for the quality of life of all Londoners. It welcomes the estimated employment effects : approximately 74,000 jobs in the planning and construction phases and a possible 25,000 new jobs in the city--the equivalent of filling 6 million sq ft of office space or more than half the space that is vacant in the city at present.
At the same time, the corporation, as a petitioner, has the opportunity to be present at the table to look at the details of the scheme with the promoters and to protect the interests of those affected by construction work. A scheme as large and imaginative as crossrail will inevitably cause disruption, but it will be for the greater and longer-term benefit of London and the surrounding areas. I am sure that what we have heard on the compensation arrangements will gladden the hearts of many of those affected.
I am sure that the dialogue with the corporation will continue to progress well, and the crossrail team has been making a good impression with those with whom it has been negotiating and carrying on discussion. The corporation said :
"It may be said that negotiations of a very helpful kind are proceeding between the Corporation and the Promoters, and there are gounds for optimism that they will be fruitful by the time a Committee stage is under way."
That bodes well for the future.
There will be disruption, and in my constituency there will be changes to all three of our stations--Chesham, Amersham and Chalfont and Latimer. Those stations will have to be altered with platform extensions, and I hope that their character will be protected and enhanced.
Both Chiltern district council and I are concerned about another matter-- the car parking demand at all three of the sites. Parking has been a problem in the past and will remain an issue in the future. There has been some loose talk about cancelling the Aylesbury and/or the Chesham link, and I am pleased to see that enabling powers for that part of the route have been included in the Bill. It is essential that the crossrail project is completed right up to the Aylesbury link to ensure a more even spread and balance, certainly of park-and-ride commuters, who may travel from further afield to use this magnificent system. A greater recognition of the burden on local authorities at the end of the line should be taken on board by all the promoters and even perhaps by the Government when they are considering the standard spending assessments.
In the interests of the environment, we wish to encourage people to leave their cars and use an efficient public transport system, but we must ensure that they have safe secure areas in which to leave those cars. That is a particular problem at the Buckinghamshire end of the
Column 233
crossrail route, and I expect that matter to be considered carefully. Some time ago, one of my constituents wrote a letter to my predecessor, saying :"Chesham needs its rail link to keep it on the map and for relief on our roads, and extra permanent car parking places--If Crossrail can bring these things to the Town it can't come soon enough." I also seek reassurance on certain environmental matters such as tree lopping, which will be necessary in the Buckinghamshire area. We need to ensure that the overhead conductors are clear of our trees, but the county council has expressed concern about those arrangements and I hope that those details will be taken into consideration. Similarly, the fine detail of the five bridges that will have to be raised to accommodate the new service in my constituency will require close examination to ensure the minimum disruption for the inhabitants of Chesham and Amersham.
The county council strongly supports crossrail. In a letter to the Prime Minister in May, the council stated :
"Buckinghamshire County Council strongly supports the Cross Rail project and in particular the proposals for improvement to the London to Aylesbury link"--
which, of course, passes through my constituency. The council continued :
"Without this important investment the economic development of central and southern Buckinghamshire will be significantly frustrated There is substantial local support for the Aylesbury-London Cross Rail project among the business community and among the local authorities. Any decision to drop the project or to postpone the Aylesbury link would be seen as a severe blow to all our efforts and would be very unpopular."
I hope that the promoters will continue their detailed consultations with county and district councils in relation to their concerns so that agreements can be reached on all sides.
I want to refer now to an issue about which I am not particularly satisfied at the moment, despite earlier discussions with the promoters--mobility- impaired access. Access is being provided at only 15 of the 41 surface stations. Although I recognise that step-free access will be available at all five central London stations, I am concerned about other areas such as my constituency.
It is proposed that in my constituency, access for disabled people will be made available at Amersham and Chesham, but not at Chalfont and Latimer because of its proximity to Amersham. I will be urging the promoters to reconsider that policy and I will press for an upgrading at Chalfont and Latimer. We are building a major transport system for the next century. For the marginal costs involved, particularly at this one station, I hope that the promoters will not seek to disadvantage a section of my constituents by not providing ease of access to a system which, after all, will last us for the next 50 years.
For any public transport system to be successful, it needs the basic criteria of accessibility, capacity and frequency. Let that accessibility be for all. Capacity and frequency are being increased and both will be welcomed by all travellers. They will particularly welcome the links to Heathrow and the channel tunnel route. My constituents in Chesham and Amersham welcome the crossrail project. It represents a vital upgrading which will improve their access to other parts of the capital, the country and the continent. I wish the Bill well.
Column 234
9.32 pmMr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South) : The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) referred to her constituency and I have a query about the map that the promoters have supplied.
However, I want to take a much wider view about the promotion and to begin by saying that if an hon. Member who was in this place in the 1850s were suddenly to return today, he would find himself on familiar ground. In the late 1850s, there were a number of Bills before the House, one of which succeeded and established the Metropolitan railway. The Metropolitan railway was the first London crossrail and virtually the first underground railway in the world. Questions of finance, planning, services, facilities and safety and all the issues which the Committee will discuss were also live issues 140 years ago.
There are more similarities than may be apparent. The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham referred to the City of London corporation. I am glad to say that the Metropolitan railway owed something to the then perhaps enlightened City of London with regard to its construction. At that time the City was engaged in slum clearance in the Fleet valley. As new roads were being built, it was decided to build the railway beneath them. That happened below what used to be called New road and which we now call Euston road.
At that time, there were also discussions about the salubrious residential areas of Paddington which would be connected to the City by the new rapid means of transport. No doubt the directors of the then Great Western railway saw an opportunity to extend their trains to the City. Hon. Members will be surprised to know that, until 1939, trains ran from Southall to Paddington, where an electric locomotive was put on and people were taken through to Aldgate. It is not a new idea. I see that the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) has gone-- [Interruption.] I am glad to see that he is still here. The first terminus of the Metropolitan railway was at platforms 1 and 2 at Liverpool Street. Until recently, there was a link in the tunnel from the Metropolitan railway to the Great Eastern railway at Liverpool Street which was used by trains until 1904. Coincidentally, the last train to use that link was a railway excursion from Aylesbury to Great Yarmouth via the Metropolitan railway at Liverpool street, so we are not talking about anything new.
The finance of that railway was a major feature of discussions in the House at that time, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) rightly referred to that. It is not simply finance for the building and the rate of return. After all, even with dense traffic, not much revenue will be coming in over the expensive five miles of tunnel, with the stations, the lifts and escalators, ventilation and so on.
The Government are complicating matters through the other legislation in another place. When I asked the Minister who would own the railway, he talked at the end of his speech about finance, which was most interesting, but not about ownership. The first crossrail company that gave those extra facilities was the Metropolitan Railway Company. It owned the track and the tunnels, signalled the trains and allowed the Great Western to come in at one end and the Great Eastern at the other end.
The second crossrail company was the District Railway Company, with its original terminus at Mansion House. At one time, one could walk to Westminster underground
Column 235
station and get a train to Windsor via the link at Ealing Broadway. Indeed, until the outbreak of war, one could get a train at Ealing Broadway and go all the way to Southend. We are not talking about anything new ; we are talking about a new method of railway control. Who will run all the links to which the hon. Member for Aylesbury referred, and which the Minister rightly emphasised ? Will they be run by the group of people listed by the Secretary of State in his recent press release ? Will that provide the sort of rigidity that might not be for the benefit of everyone involved ? As the Metropolitan railway provided that facility in its initial phase before it settled down as an inter-urban track, there is a certain rigidity in the maps provided.I shall refer to such matters because we must think of this important tunnel with its facility in much wider regional terms than has been accepted so far. Indeed, the concept of a fast deep railway is not new. Such railways were built in New York about the turn of the century. In the 1920s, the Metropolitan and District lines had plans for deep-level tubes as express tubes to relieve congestion on the original routes.
Let us examine the wider aspects, especially the routes, frequencies and services that may be provided. The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham referred to the problems at that end of the line. What has not been made clear--although it may be in some of the literature that I have read--is whether the Metropolitan line service for rail electric as far as Amersham will be extended further or whether there will be electrification from there to Aylesbury. Presumably, the fast crossrail will provide the fast services, perhaps stopping at Harrow and Amersham and then stopping at Aylesbury, as will probably be confirmed.
Mr. Lidington : To assist the hon. Gentleman, the proposal is that, once crossrail is operational on that branch, the services that are provided at present by the Chilton line of British Rail from Marylebone to Aylesbury and those provided by London Underground from Baker Street to Amersham will be taken over by a crossrail route that serves Aylesbury and the intervening stations listed on the map through to Paddington. Trains will go to Paddington, rather than to Marylebone. The Metropolitan line will continue to run its service, stopping at all its present stations to Watford and Uxbridge.
Mr. Spearing : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for putting that on the record in the Second Reading debate. The debate is an opportunity to clear up points that people want to raise. The Committee will be able to refer to them.
There is some rigidity in the plan. Other options west of London might be considered and taken up. Everyone has said that the project will last for 50 or 100 years, so we should consider all the options now and ask why they have not been chosen. The hon. Member for Aylesbury mentioned some of the terminals at Paddington. What about Old Oak to High Wycombe? The line goes along the back of Old Oak depot. What about that magnificent line built in the early years of this century? It is a fast and wide railway from Old Oak junction up to High Wycombe. There are plenty of places along the line. I know that they are served by Marylebone at present, but the line is a possibility.
Reading is shown as the terminal. Of course, it will be, if electrification goes to Reading. Are we to suppose that,
Column 236
Governments permitting, there will not be electrification beyond Reading, perhaps to Oxford? What about the Bristol main line? I am sure that Brunel would be shocked that we have not electrified his wask about trains from Heathrow to perhaps anywhere east-- perhaps Ilford or Shenfield. More logically, a link could go up the Lea Valley to Stansted airport. That would provide some airport logic, if nothing else.One of the puzzles of the western entry is that the planned route of the crossrail proposal crosses the west coast main line overhead. There is already a rail chord joining it. Is there no possibility of trains coming down the west coast main line and occasionally using crossrail? That could happen perhaps at weekends--on Saturdays or perhaps for a rally at Hyde park on a Sunday. There is no reason why the Sunday services should not run at different times, as they do in other parts of London to respond to changed demand. I am sure that they will. If this magnificent facility is built, it will provide that great flexibility.
What about east London? The flexibility there is perhaps even greater. I have already mentioned the Lea Valley line up to Stansted airport and perhaps as far as Cambridge. The line is electrified in any case, with fast electric trains with sliding doors which go at about 100 miles an hour. Kings Lynn or Norwich would certainly be within range. I am sure that the Secretary of State would be interested in that.
What about the Chingford link? Chingford is being excluded from the possibilities. The line runs through Walthamstow. I told my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow--
Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton) : For Leyton.
Mr. Spearing : It is in the same borough. I told my hon. Friend the railway story, which deserves repetition, of the old lady before the war at Liverpool Street, from which a 10-minute jazz steam service ran up and down to Enfield and Chingford. She said to a porter, "Please my man, when is the last train to Walthamstow?" The porter said, "Lawd bless you ma'am, there ain't no last train to Walthamstow." The trains ran every hour through the night. Yet Walthamstow is not being included as a possibility for crossrail. The greatest conundrum has been referred to only in passing. The Government place great emphasis on the east Thames corridor, yet no Tilbury through line is shown, even though the electrified lines already exist. Another conundrum is the connection, if any, with Union Rail. The Government have said that fast trains will run from Kent into the Stratford area. Why should people from Kent be deprived of going direct to Oxford street to shop? Why should the people of Chatham not have the facilities that the people of Amersham already have? I do not know the answer, but at least there is a possibility. Such a link may not be the immediate plan, but there is nothing to stop it in the long run.
The biggest anomaly is the beauty contest that the Government have precipitated between Ebbsfleet, which is adjacent to Chatham, and Rainham and Stratford. Union Rail is not too keen on any international station at Stratford being defined as the terminus for international
Column 237
trains. There will be some sort of competition--that is not too strong a description of what will happen-- between now and October, and I do not want to prejudice it. My Newham membership will indicate where my sympathies lie.There is a lack of railway logic in the project. It has appeared as a gaping hole, at least in the technical thinking. That is illustrated in the concern of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) for Allen gardens and the junction with the Great Eastern suburban lines. At present, the operators are thinking of an old-fashioned flat-level junction near Allen gardens to join up with the suburban lines of the Great Eastern. If there is to be an international station at Stratford, perhaps on the north of the present station, with good connections, crossrail should be linked to that. There is at least a possibility of taking the tunnels a few hundred yards or a mile further east. There are sites readily available which would provide a good junction from crossrail not only to the suburban lines of the Great Eastern and to a link to Tilbury, but also to the fast lines to Norwich, the Lea valley and, possibly, Stansted. That would not cost much extra, bearing in mind the great cost of tunnelling in central London. We should consider this not just in terms of the routes on the map, but as an imaginative public transport facility for the 21st century which is combined with inter-city transport and, no doubt, international transport through what the Minister interestingly calls the CTRL, which I translate as the channel tunnel rail link--not Union Rail.
I return to my opening theme. Who will own the track and run the stations? Will people be able to use a future travelcard on this link? I know that the Minister has strong views on that. Will crossrail be part of a super Network SouthEast of rapid inter-urban modern trains running at high speed and connected perhaps to some of the routes to the south which were electrified in the 1930s? Or will it be made impossible to operate through financial arrangements that the Government are embarking on now, whereby the running of trains, the management of track, finance, the return on capital and the operation of joint stations--which there is bound to be with London Transport or whatever remains of it--will be complicated?
Will we have in the centre of London the problems that are spread around the country and that are implicit in the legislation that we have been contemplating? [Interruption.] I am glad to see the Minister for Public Transport coming into the Chamber at this point. So far, all that that legislation has presented has been complication after complication and difficulty after difficulty. If Railtrack does not survive--I cannot see it doing so--one of the agencies to operate, own and be responsible for the track will disappear.
To return to the theme with which I started, legislators of 140 years ago, tackling similar problems to those of today--most of the essence of this issue was present then--would be astonished and astounded that the Government are not contemplating a single operational entity responsible for this imaginative five to six miles of tunnel through which many services might come. We hope that there might be flexibility over the years as strategic planning gets back on the map. We hope that this will
Column 238
serve London as its urban railways have done and serve it well. These issues must be faced fairly and squarely and dealt with properly in Committee.The instruction proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney would ensure that that happens, and I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Aylesbury say that that will not be excluded from consideration. If any petitioner brings that up, he should be listened to with care and attention, because without proper co-ordination and proper arrangements to provide facilities for passengers and flexible ticketing of the type that has been successful in London in the past few years, the project will not be the success that it deserves to be.
9.49 pm
Mr. Hartley Booth (Finchley) : I add to the warm congratulations that have been heaped on my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) on acting as sponsor of the Bill and introducing it at short notice tonight. I also welcome the Government's support, both financial and general, for the Bill.
It may be regarded as something of a curiosity that I, as the Member for Finchley, whose constituency is on the north-south Northern line, have the temerity to speak in a debate on the east-west route. I am concerned, however, about the general benefits of the project deriving to the City, London and my constituency and I have some interest in urban regeneration as I am the immediate past chairman of the British Urban Regeneration Association.
The course of the debate has led to one certain conclusion--our capital city needs the best form of infrastructure. No city can live, breathe or prosper without such infrastructure. At the moment cars move around London at an average speed of just 7 mph. There is notorious and widespread congestion on the underground. The Northern line, which will be served by crossrail, has a well-known congestion spot at Tottenham Court road. I hope that that will improve with the intersection with crossrail.
Repeated reference has been made to the risk to future investment in the City if we do not provide adequate infrastructure. I echo what my hon. Friends the Members for Aylesbury and for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) have said and emphasise it. Given that Singapore Hong Kong and Jakarta, on the ever more wealthy Pacific rim, are providing splendid new infrastructure to compete with west Europe, surely it is right for London to provide the best possible infrastructure. It is vital that we undertake projects such as crossrail.
I am persuaded from discussions with the promoters that the speed improvements--a saving of half an hour on the line from Aylesbury into central London and a quarter of an hour from Reading into central London-- together with the comfort of the new trains and rolling stock, will mean fewer cars will travel on the roads in central London. That would be a crucial spin-off benefit of the Bill.
Concern has been expressed, however, about the disturbance that the project will cause. The right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) referred to that in connection with his end of the proposed tunnel. According to the promoters, 20 work sites will disgorge earth and soil from the ground ; 16 of which will involve the movement of 100 lorries a day. That noise and disturbance will continue for up to three years of the projected five-year span of the project.
| Next Section
| Home Page |