House of Commons Hansard Debates for 8 Jun 1993

Political and security issues are inextricably linked, and this must be recognised by the Secretary of State. Unless we tackle vigorously both issues, the Secretary of State's pious wish in his Liverpool speech for some form of political settlement to impact on "support for, and confidence in, the police and other security forces and in the administration of justice"

will be so much whistling in the wind.

After 20 years of emergency powers and emergency policing, my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) and others have discussed the need for a more imaginative approach to policing in Northern Ireland and one that is more widely acceptable. We need to examine what can be done to achieve a more popular acceptance of the police.

Questions must be asked. Would it be possible to have community policing, to separate anti-terrorist policing from other forms? Perhaps it would be possible to share responsibility for anti-terrorist policing more fully with the Republic, to create a new form of constable, an Irish constable, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson). Perhaps we could have a force from both jurisdictions, with power to operate in both areas.

It is immediately argued, however, that one group would not accept the idea or that another group would feel

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that it infringed national sovereignty. But we must ask those who are not prepared to re-examine the role of the police and their acceptability to the whole community whether they want the present situation to continue indefinitely. It is only when answers to such questions are explored that the people of Northern Ireland will accept that they are receiving the protection of the law that they deserve and rightly demand.

The Government seem to assume that just because the emergency provisions legislation is on the statute book, terrorism will miraculously be defeated or at least contained and made more difficult, yet there is no evidence to support such unqualified confidence. The original emergency legislation was passed 20 years ago, yet according to a recent European Community report the murder rate in Northern Ireland is about five times the European average. Only the Calabria region in southern Italy, stronghold of the Mafia, ranks higher.

We recognise the urgent need for an effective anti-terrorist policy and we are now having conducted a major independent re-evaluation of existing measures to counter terrorism. The failure to develop a comprehensive civil libertarian policy to deal with political violence has led to contamination of freedom throughout Northern Ireland. It has also left the citizens of this island vulnerable to an ever present terrorist threat.

The Labour party, at least, recognises that the situation cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely. Because of this, because internment remains on the statute book, because the Government refuse to accept the basic safeguards of video and audio recording of interrogations and have constantly rejected the majority of Lord Colville's modest proposals for reform, we shall yet again, sadly but necessarily because it is our duty, vote against the order tonight.

Several hon. Members rose--

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse) : Order. In the two hours and five minutes remaining for the debate, no fewer than 11 right hon. and hon. Members are hoping to catch my eye.

If those who speak will bear that in mind, we may manage to fit in all those who wish to speak.

4.55 pm

Sir Edward Heath (Old Bexley and Sidcup) : Next year, we shall have had 25 years of terrorism in the United Kingdom. It is now 20 years since I addressed the House on this subject and I want to do so again tonight in the light of the figure that I have just given. Lord Colville's report is important and I would not for a moment question many of his suggestions. I am glad that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State will give his urgent attention to them. I hope that when he reaches decisions, they will be speedily implemented. The more one compares the operations of Government in this country with those elsewhere, the more one recognises how slow and lacking in determination they are. This, therefore, is a case where we cannot hinder developments that are agreed upon and are urgently required.

What I want to do tonight, however, is to come down to the basics of this problem. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State set out the Government's objectives. They are the same objectives as Governments of all parties have had over the past 24 years, and they are

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quite right. But the plain fact is that, despite the lengthy passage of time, the objectives have not been achieved ; nor is there any sign whatever of their being achieved.

Let me make it plain at the beginning that I have the utmost admiration for the people of Northern Ireland. It is beyond my understanding how they can have put up with these conditions for this length of time. I have the greatest possible sympathy with them in the losses that they have sustained and the terrible life that they must live. That same sympathy goes to those now on the mainland, in Warrington, in the City, and all those elsewhere who are affected. That is the first thing that I want to make plain.

Secondly, I am in no way criticising the work of Her Majesty's forces. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State pointed out, wherever forces are deployed one finds occasional breaches of discipline. They are to be regretted, but I sometimes feel that there is so much emphasis on them that insufficient emphasis is laid on the good work that is being done by the forces, again in immensely difficult conditions. The same thing applies to the police. I have no criticism of them.

I must ask myself this question : at a time when other countries in Europe- -to limit ourselves to that particular geographical area--have been able to deal with the problem, why have we failed? We have seen the most vicious forms of terrorism in Italy, with the Red Guards, in Germany, with the Red Army, in France and in Belgium, and they have got on top of it. In Spain, there have been periodic outbreaks, but they have been limited now to the Basque area. Why is it that those countries have been able to deal with this problem, but we have failed? We are entitled to ask that question.

The answer is that one can deal with terrorism only by being cleverer than the terrorists. That is absolutely basic. One has to be cleverer in intelligence, cleverer in action and cleverer politically. Again, to be perfectly blunt, we have failed in all three. That is why I want to get down to the basics ; I do not believe that we can continue in this way. It is already being brought home to us here that the action in the City is damaging to our economic interests. Further action would be even more damaging. This ought to be a major debate, but I have carefully calculated the number of those present and there are fewer than 5 per cent. of our Members here showing an interest in this matter which affects the whole of the United Kingdom. I ask myself--I do not wish to ask the House, because it might be embarrassing--whether, if the public relations representative of the IRA were in the Gallery, as for all I know he may be, he would say to his pals tonight, "My God, we are now in for a terrible time ; with what those people are going to do to us, we shall be out of it." The answer is, not for a moment. He would go home and have a quiet drink and decide where to put the next bomb. This, I repeat, is why we have to get down to it.

Years ago, the other countries established official anti-terrorist bodies at the highest level, and that is why they have been successful. Those bodies took different forms, but we must have the same sort of thing if we are to be successful in dealing with this problem.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : The right hon. Gentleman referred to the low attendance in the Chamber--I had to go to a meeting-- but does he not agree that, despite the low attendance at such debates, since terrorism

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by the Provisional IRA began 23 or 24 years ago, and as it is now being carried out by their counterparts on the other side, the House has been unanimous in condemning terrorism and no political advantage has been gained by that terrorists? The House has not been divided during the near quarter of a century and our condemnation of terrorism and refusal to give way are as firm as at the beginning. Should not the right hon. Gentleman, a former Prime Minister, recognise that terrorism has not divided British political opinion, either in the House or in the country, and that it will not do so?

Sir Edward Heath : I have not suggested otherwise. I am saying that, after nearly 25 years, there must be a dramatic change. I hope that the whole House has recognised that by now.

As I have said, other countries established central organisation, and here is my main point : I believe that the Prime Minister must now lift the level above what it is today if we are to achieve results. This matter must be put in the hands of one very Senior Cabinet Minister whose sole purpose will be to deal with terrorism in the United Kingdom. That is what is required.

I make no reflection on my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State or his predecessors. The Secretary of State is not responsible for what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom in dealing with terrorism. He therefore cannot be asked to carry out that task. It requires a very senior member of the Cabinet, because he must be able to carry with him other colleagues who feel that they have an interest or he must be able to lay down the law and say that something will be done because the Prime Minister wants it. That would be a major step forward, and the sooner it is taken, the better. We have seen various changes since the end of the cold war, particularly in regard to MI5, but no one is trying to co-ordinate. My other point--which I will make very briefly, because you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, asked us to be as brief as possible--is that dealing with intelligence during the cold war, internationally or internally, was quite different from dealing with problems of this kind in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. The sources of intelligence are quite different. Trying to find people who have been planted by Moscow in some social gathering or Government Department is quite different from the present situation. These people move in entirely different areas. When MI5 wanted to get a good spy, it did not go to the local pub, but that is where these people can be found. We must have people who understand that, who know how to go about it and who get the information.

Of course, that will be dangerous, and some of those people will come to a sad end, but if we are to overcome this terrorism, that is part of the price that we have to pay. The sooner that intelligence is integrated, the better. It passes belief by most people who look at this, certainly from outside, how any group could have got together all the explosives that were planted in the City, let alone planted them there and arranged for the whole lot to go off--incidentally, doing £300 million of damage. Yet that is going on, and we do not know when and where the next explosion will be. That is intolerable after 25 years of trying to deal with this problem. There are many things that could be done and ought to be done speedily once we get a supremo in charge. There should be videos--not from the point of view that has been

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discussed, but for the protection of all sorts of organisations. That would cost money, so the organisations should be given tax rebates. That would be a useful job for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and would encourage people to cover all possible sources of information. Many other things could be done.

Intelligence will cost money, because one cannot get the information out of people unless one is prepared to make arrangements with them and for them. That all costs money, but the information is available. I will give one small personal example.

On one occasion, an article appeared in a Dublin paper which had been planted by the IRA and which libelled me. An attempt was made to find copies of the paper in London and those concerned said that they knew the people who sold the papers and would be able to get copies. When they went to that source, there was not one copy to be seen ; the usual suppliers said that they had refused to take the paper that time. They knew what was going on. They did not know that I never bring libel actions, or they might have acted differently. So the information is available, but one has to know how to get it. Turning to the political side, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has emphasised quite rightly, as has the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), that the politics and the military force go together. It is right that we should concentrate on politics, but we must also recognise that, until we begin to make serious progress against the terrorism, the politics will be more difficult. The more progress we make against the terrorism, the easier the political aspect will become. The Secretary of State has been persistent, as were his predecessors. In 1985, eight years ago, there was the Anglo- Irish Agreement. Nothing has happened since then. There are certain political factors that we must face up to. The first is that we must have the best possible and closest relationship with the Republic of Ireland. I know that that will give offence, but it will have to be accepted. We shall not settle this problem until we have the closest possible relationship with Eire. We are in the same Community ; we are both members. We have the same level playing fields in many different spheres. Why, then, can we not be together on this? My impression, from the contacts that I have, is that the possibilities are becoming greater. There are changes coming about in the Eire constitution that we would not have dreamt of 20 years ago. We must use the situation to our advantage and have the closest possible relations with the Republic of Ireland.

Secondly, I say to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State that, as his predecessors discovered--and as I knew in 1973--there is no purpose in carrying on talks if the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) is a participant, as there will never be agreement. The Government must face up to that. There is no point in continuing to be nice. That will not produce any answers. The hon. Gentleman does not want agreement ; he has always done everything possible to prevent agreement and he and his supporters will continue to try to prevent it.

Some hon. Members present today will remember Sunningdale--the only successful negotiation that we have had. It established the tripartite arrangement, which worked perfectly well--better than any of us ever thought it would--until the petrol strike in May 1974, when Mr.

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Wilson said that he would break the strike and failed to do so, with the result that the coalition broke up. Sunningdale was the best thing that we have done for Ireland.

I only obtained that agreement because I excluded the hon. Member for Antrim, North. I would not have him at the conference because I knew that his only purpose would be to prevent agreement. He protested strongly. He actually came to Sunningdale to see me. I told him the same thing again. I said, "You're out. We're here to reach agreement." That should be the Government's position. There is no point in continuing as at present. Every set of talks at which we fail to reach agreement makes the situation worse ; that is always the case. Let the Secretary of State say, "All right. Out. Now we will have people here who want agreement." Only then will we get agreement.

It is necessary--very necessary indeed--that we reach a political agreement with Eire. What substance is there in hon. Members' complaint about the Anglo-Irish Agreement? It is just a way of trying to establish an entity. It is just not worth it. It is immensely damaging to the people of Northern Ireland and, because terrorism takes place, it is also damaging to those of us in the rest of the United Kingdom. That is the plain fact.

At the end of the debate on the order, regulations and so on will be passed. Let us realise that we must get down to the basic factors, and speedily. We need high-level central direction for the whole of the United Kingdom. Our primary emphasis must be on intelligence, and new intelligence. Following from that, our secondary emphasis must be on the action that can be taken by the police and the military forces.

I have said already that we need to be cleverer than the terrorists. There is no place for saying, "He is the next one due for promotions, so put him there," or, "He has been waiting for a long time, so put him there." We all know that from our experience in the services and elsewhere. If one does not put the cleverest people where they are most needed, it just does not work. That was discovered early in the second world war. Those who had responsibility found that the people who had been in post in peace time simply were not up to the job. They sent out for the cleverest people in the universities, in business and wherever they could be found, and those people produced the answers. We had better learn that lesson today, too. We must use the best people we have. The Cabinet spends a great deal of time arguing about deploying forces here, there and everywhere in the world, yet we are not dealing with and have not solved our own problem. What does the rest of the world think when we say, "This is what you ought to do"? People politely ask, "What about Northern Ireland? What about the fact that the City of London was blown up?"? Of course they do not take any notice of us when they see the problem that we have on our own doorstep.

I hope that I have been helpful to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. I have lifted responsibility for the matter to a higher level. I hope that the Prime Minister will appreco a problem that has existed for nearly 25 years. The situation has gone on for far too long and cannot be allowed to drag on any longer.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the right hon.

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Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath) to mislead the House by telling it that I was at Sunningdale? I was never at Sunningdale. I brand that lie as I brand the other lies that the right hon. Gentleman has told the House.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : It is for the hon. Gentleman to make his own speech. He has not raised a point of order for me.

Mr. McNamara : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) accused the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup of telling lies. Surely, such remarks are unparliamentary and should be withdrawn.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I did not understand the hon. Member for Antrim, North to say that the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup was deliberately telling lies. [ Hon. Members :-- "Oh."] Order. I did not hear the hon. Gentleman say that the right hon. Gentleman was deliberately telling lies. That is a fact and it is no laughing matter.

Sir Edward Heath : Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Antrim, North said that he never went near Sunningdale. I saw him myself in Sunningdale and talked to him there. [Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. It might be advisable if the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman were to sort the matter out for themselves.

5.16 pm

Mr. James Molyneaux (Lagan Valley) : I had intended to start my remarks by saying that it was always a stimulating experience to follow the Father of the House. In the light of the brisk exchanges that have already taken place, to which we shall no doubt return, my words have come truer than I expected.

The well-thought-out proposals on security made by the Father of the House are worthy of serious consideration and I share the right hon. Gentleman's hope that Her Majesty's Government will take them to heart. He and I can remember the days of Templer, when people said that Malaysia could never be pacified and that it would be a running sore for generations. Because of effective and strong political and military leadership--

Rev. Martin Smyth : He was an Ulsterman.

Mr. Molyneaux : And he was an Ulsterman into the bargain --the campaign was terminated much earlier than we had a right to expect.

I entirely agree with the Father of the House that, where terrorism had been a destructive force in other European nations, those nations had been able to tackle the problem in a co-ordinated way within their own boundaries. If the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying so, there is a slight contradiction between that assertion and the point that he made towards the end of his speech, when he advocated the internationalisation of the security problem in Northern Ireland by inviting in the Irish Government. I want to return to the political aspect later.

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On the equivalent occasion on 10 June last year, the motion before us was almost identical to that on the Order Paper today. At the end of that debate, the official Opposition took the unwise-- some might say irresponsible--decision to divide the House. The intention was, as it always is in a Division, to defeat the Government. There was a possibility that they might just have succeeded on that occasion. Tonight, however, the position is very different.

Had the Opposition succeeded in defeating the Government on that earlier occasion, the law of the land would have been changed. That would not be the case today, because a formula that was originally designed for the duration of the talks last year has now been given a certain rigidity and permanence. That formula is expressed in the words, "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed." It follows that nothing can be agreed until everyone agrees. In the light of the remarks made by the Father of the House, I think that he sees the difficulty of achieving success given that formula.

That straitjacket will have an effect on our parliamentary processes as profound as--if I dare mention it--the Maastricht treaty, which I understand is under discussion in another place today. It is rather a pity that there should be a clash of attractions within the same building. It says much for the devotion of the Father of the House that he has chosen to participate in this debate and has not yielded to the blandishments of the siren voices in the other place. When the Secretary of State opened the debate last June, he referred to the new provisions contained in the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991. He mentioned changes that were intended to make the fight against terrorism more effective. Unfortunately, we must admit that there is no tangible evidence of improvement. In the past year, there has been an escalation in violence and counter-violence. Although "The Talks" last year and the rumours and distortions surrounding them have destabilised the entire community, the enhanced powers have had no appreciable effect. One must conclude that the changes in the law, which have been under consideration for many months, must be delayed no longer. In that respect, I agree with the Father of the House.

The price of delay in human terms and human lives is far too great to justify delay. When I visited Portadown last week, I was told that when the Minister of State visited the town, he asked some bystanders what they would do. I have great admiration for the intellect of the good citizens of Portadown in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble). However, they could be forgiven for feeling that perhaps the Minister of State might have had some sound ideas of his own given that he has at his disposal the products of a vast intelligence-gathering machine, not to mention the much-vaunted security co-operation with the Irish authorities which is said to have improved from one Northern Ireland Question Time to the next over the past nine years. The packaging was entitled, "Peace, stability and reconciliation."

If the Minister of State did not know what to do then, he knows what to do now. The Chief Constable of the RUC, in presenting his report two weeks ago, published his list. He said that he wanted to see changes in the law under the following headings :

"1. the removal of the right to silence when being questioned about crime ;

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2. a refusal to answer questions in carefully defined circumstances should be an offence ;

3. accomplice evidence should be more readily admissable ; 4. previous terrorist convictions should be admitted to show system or courses of conduct ;

5. the burden of proof, in defined circumstances, should shift to the accused ;

6. evidence of an intelligence nature should be admissible, again in carefully defined and controlled circumstances ;

7. the discovery process requires revision."

The Chief Constable is no firebrand. He is the responsible head of the best and second-largest constabulary in the United Kingdom. He will have reached those conclusions after long and careful deliberations. He is the person best fitted to know exactly what is needed to ensure that the law enforcement agencies and the courts can co-operate within a coherent framework. The Secretary of State and the Minister of State must pay heed to the senior officers of the police and the Army in respect of their advice and perhaps pay less attention to the desk-bound advisers whose flawed schemes have destabilised the entire Ulster community.

The Secretary of State had the benefit of the first-hand views of the chairman of the Police Federation earlier today. He will have heard him say :

"In our case, however, our difficulties are not largely of our own making. Much of the cause of the discontent felt by the police service in Northern Ireland can be very firmly laid at the door of Stormont Castle and Queen Anne's Gate."

On the issue of security, the chairman said :

"We have a Government that is trapped in cliche s and whose only other response is to call for cool heads and hard looks at the situation."

The chairman, Mr. Beattie, went on to support the Chief Constable's plea for sensible amendment of the law and he concluded : "Together, the police service, the judicial system, the community, and a Government more obviously armed with the political will to win, we can and will succeed in ending this misery."

His words were not entirely out of line with what the Father of the House said.

We are striving to do our part. Today, my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann has tabled an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill [Lords] , which is currently in Standing Committee, in the following simple terms :

"a refusal to answer questions in carefully defined circumstances should be an offence."

I trust that the Secretary of State will draw the Home Secretary's attention to that amendment and persuade him to accept it. The Secretary of State referred to the second recommendation of the Colville report which urges investigation into allegations of intimidation of defence solicitors. I agree that there should be such an investigation. There is a belief that accused persons often demand access to names and addresses of witnesses. If a solicitor honourably refuses to hand over a deposition, the threat and intimidation are switched to the solicitor's clerk and to the solicitor's office staff. When such intimidation is clearly effective, it is small wonder that the intimidated should be reluctant to come forward. It might also be prudent to check on ugly reports that certain terrorist organisations claim a share in legal aid costs.

The chairman of the Police Federation used the phrase

"a Government more obviously armed with the political will to win".

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There is a perception that the Government do not have that will to win. None of us can ignore that perception. At its root cause there is an even greater question mark over the Government's will to govern. I hope that I can carry the Father of the House with me because there is common ground on the philosophy of making a start in governing Northern Ireland more efficiently by beginning at the bottom layer.

The Government's will to govern is questioned in the wider context of the United Kingdom as a whole. However, I do not intend to stray into that area today. It may be unfair, but it is a factor in the minds of terrorists and their victims. However, I shall restrict to Northern Ireland my judgment on the Government's will to govern. If the Government really possess that will, why do they permit advisors to hook them on the phrase,

"nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed"?

Why does the Northern Ireland Office block the prospect of modest progressive improvements to the governance of Northern Ireland? Why, over more than 20 years, has the Northern Ireland Office destroyed, through flawed initiatives at intervals of roughly every 18 months, stability that was patiently created?

Why cannot the Northern Ireland Office be content with the proof that Ulster's political leaders can and do work together, sit together and co- operate on a wide range of economic, health, education and environmental matters to an extent that no hon. Member would contemplate in respect of any of the other political leaders from Great Britain?

Given that the greater number--I use that phrase rather than "the majority" --of Northern Ireland citizens fully support that kind of activity, will the Secretary of State try such endeavours for the next six months? Is he in any doubt about the dedication of my party to that course, which would restore stability and which could lead to the defeat of terrorism from whatever quarter?

5.28 pm

Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) : If there has been a common theme in the debate so far, it has been a frustration about the length of time that "the troubles"--as they are euphemistically called in Northern Ireland--have continued. For almost a quarter of a century, the United Kingdom's citizens in Northern Ireland have suffered an horrendous campaign of violence.

As we come to the ritual of the continuation order of what are described as emergency provisions, the word "emergency" speaks to me of something that is temporary or periodic. However, it is now a way of life in Northern Ireland. It would be worth while for the House to consider whether we are winning the battle against terrorism, whether progress has been made and what changes there have been over the past 23 or 24 years.

Statistically, it can easily be shown that things are worse now than they have been for many years. During an intervention, the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) gave some statistics that showed that there had been a sharp increase in violence since the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. The death statistics for Northern Ireland show that 3,053 people have been murdered as a result of terrorist campaigns. Of those 3,053, some 640 have been members of the Army, the UDR or the Royal Irish Regiment, and some 290 have been members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and its reserves.

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The overwhelming majority of those who have been killed were civilians. Most of them were innocent in terms of not being involved in any way in any political or paramilitary organisation. Outside the 3,053 people who have been killed in Northern Ireland, 100 have been killed in the Republic of Ireland, 118 have been killed in Great Britain, and 18 have been killed in other parts of Europe directly as a result of the terrorist campaigns from Northern Ireland. If those cold statistics are hard to take in, the fact is that, if the Northern Ireland community of some 1.5 million people is considered in ratio to the population of Great Britain, one would be envisaging the murder of some 125,000 people on the mainland. One would be talking about more than 1.25 million people on the mainland having been maimed and mutilated as a result of violence. If that had happened on the mainland, the response of the House to terrorism would have been of much greater urgency than it has been. As I listened to the speech of the Father of the House, I noticed that there were heads nodding on both sides of the Chamber during his early comments. However, as he suggested how we might deal with the problem of terrorism, the heads ceased to nod. A major difficulty is that we all agree that terrorism is wrong and should be brought to an end but, when it comes to how it might be brought to an end, there is a great disagreement in the House, and, indeed, in the community as a whole.

In terms of the level of violence, the main change in terrorism over the past quarter of a century has been the fact that, instead of dealing with one major sophisticated and well-trained terrorist organisation, we are now dealing with terrorist organisations on both sides of the community, carrying out almost an equal level of attrition against the Northern Ireland people. The violence is now two-sided. It is much more deeply rooted than ever before. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that there is much greater support for terrorism than there was during the early part of the troubles in Northern Ireland.

What is certain is that terrorism is much better organised now. It is more sophisticated. It is part of an international terrorist regime. There is the ability for much greater training and better equipment. Indeed, it is sad to discover that the terrorist is often much better equipped than the member of the security forces whom he will have to face as he attempts to carry out his assassinations. Therefore, in terms of the arsenal of terrorism, the terrorists are in a better position than ever before. They have no reluctance to carry out their campaign of violence. They have in no way lowered their resolve to continue their acts and their attrition in Northern Ireland. There appears to be no shortage in the funding or manpower of terrorist organisations.

I remember a group of Conservative Back Benchers being in Northern Ireland. After a briefing from the Northern Ireland Office and security chiefs, they were able to tell us that they had been told that there were about only 300 active terrorists in Northern Ireland--this is several years ago. Today, the Secretary of State told us that more than 450 of those 300 were put in gaol last year, and another 150 have been put in jail so far this year. The statisticians better get back to work and sharpen their

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pencils because their calculations are clearly inaccurate. There seems to be an ever ready supply of people who will go out and carry a gun or place a bomb.

After a quarter of a century of terrorism, the community is right to ask : when will it end? Are we winning the war against the terrorists? If there had been the least indicator that some step had been taken along the road towards defeating terrorism, the community could place its confidence in the Government. However, the community does not see that we are winning the war against terrorism--far from it. The community has no confidence in the Government's security policy.

Therefore, it says to the Government, "If you simply continue to adopt the policies that have failed for a quarter of a century, what hope is there for us in Northern Ireland?" The Government must address that question and decide what steps can be taken to grasp the nettle of terrorism, rather than simply contain terrorist violence at the present level.

In 1985, we were told by the then Prime Minister that there was a political way of defeating terrorism, and that the agreement that she had signed with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic would bring peace, stability and reconciliation. The statistics given earlier show that, far from giving peace, stability and reconciliation, the violence has increased substantially. The people in Portadown are entitled to ask : where is that peace? The people of Magherafelt and those who live around the Drumkeen hotel, which has been bombed twice in the past few months, are entitled to ask the same question, as are those in other parts of my constituency who have buried their loved ones recently.

The hand of violence has been active on both sides of our community. In the past few days, a 65-year-old Roman Catholic man was killed in Dundonald. What possible advantage is there in killing an old-age pensioner in his home? His only interests seem to have been his grandchild and playing a round of golf. Yet that is the level of terrorism that takes place. That man had lived in and been accepted by the community for more than 20 years. He had even done some painting and decorating for members of the security forces. I will not fall into the trap of saying that it is mindless violence, because there is always a purpose in the violence of either the IRA or any other terrorist organisation. Of course, the purpose is to create fear in the community and to stake out one's territory, wherever that territory may be. The House has a responsibility to show in the clearest terms that there is no moral justification for violence. Violence cannot be morally justified, because there are no special circumstances that need to be addressed, and it is not legitimate. Violence cannot be justified by terrorist action in any section of our community. The nature of terrorism has not changed over the years. It is intrinsically evil, and evil in its every aspect.

Moreover, terrorism is the antithesis of politics. The people who are involved in terrorism are not misguided politicians. They are terrorists. Therefore, they should not be treated as misguided politicians. I conclude from that that the Government should not deal with them by means of negotiations. They should not be brought to the negotiating table. I go further. They should not be given the credibility of being part of the political process by being brought into dialogue of any nature.

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Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) : Does the hon. Gentleman consider it extraordinary that, in what was in the main a most fascinating and positive speech, the Father of the House suggested that a political party in Northern Ireland should be excluded from talks about finding a solution to the desperate problems of that country?

If the hon. Gentleman believes what he has just said in condemnation of terrorism, and if he believes in democracy and the political process, does he believe that it is utterly wrong that my right hon. Friend should seek to exclude from discussions and consultations a party, and the leader of that party, which upholds the constitution and law and order and deplores terrorism?

Mr. Robinson : I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's encouragement to respond to that point. Of course the Father of the House is right. It is always easier to achieve agreement if some of those who are a party to the difficulties are excluded. For example, if we excluded the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) and his party, it would be possible to reach agreement. Indeed, during the last talks process, the other three Northern Ireland constitutional parties reached agreement to which the hon. Member for Foyle did not give his assent. So if one excludes people, one will always find it easier to reach agreement. But that will not solve the real problems in the Province.

Mr. Hume : If the hon. Gentleman is so opposed to paramilitary activities in the way that he has stated here, why were he and his party involved in setting up the Ulster Resistance Movement, a body which has since imported arms, which everyone knows kill human beings in Northern Ireland? What connection had the hon. Gentleman's party and its origins with the Ulster Protestant Volunteer Force, which was the first organisation to use violence in the past 25 years? Some of that organisation's members later complained in court that it was a tragedy that they ever knew a certain hon. Gentleman in the House.

Mr. Robinson : I can well understand the sensitivities of the hon. Member for Foyle, who stood in the ranks of those who attacked the police in the city of Londonderry, who told us that it would be a united Ireland or nothing, and who now sits down with the leader of the IRA-Sinn Fein and puts out joint proclamations with the leader of the IRA-Sinn Fein through the press centre that claims the death of my fellow citizens. I can understand his sensitivities on all those things, but I propose to conclude

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