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House of Commons

Wednesday 9 June 1993

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

Oral Answers to Questions

SCOTLAND

Family Life

1. Mr. Fabricant : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what research his Department has undertaken into family life and Sunday church attendance in Scotland.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) : The Scottish Office has sponsored a number of research projects which touch upon various aspects of family life in Scotland. Full details are given in the 1992-93 edition of the Scottish Office Register of Research, a copy of which is in the House Library.

It is not for the Scottish Office to undertake research into church attendance.

Mr. Fabricant : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's answer. Is he aware that other research has shown that more people regularly worship in Scotland on Sundays than in England and Wales? Is he aware also that Scotland is unique in the United Kingdom, in that people are able to shop legally on Sundays in Scotland? Does my hon. Friend agree that England and Wales have a lot to learn from Scotland and that shops in England and Wales should be allowed to trade on Sunday, too?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Both countries have a lot to learn from each other. Scotland is, as my hon. Friend suggested, a God-fearing nation. The situation in Scotland works very well, in large measure because Sunday opening has evolved in accordance with the wishes of the majority of residents. No doubt my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, who is responsible for such matters, will take those points into account when he reviews the position in England.

Mr. Norman Hogg : Does the Minister agree that, notwithstanding what the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) said, and notwithstanding the position of the Scottish Office, church attendance in Scotland could stand improvement? It was said in The Scotsman on Tuesday that I criticise the Church of Scotland, which of course is correct, as it was I who wrote that in the first place. Does the Minister agree further that Sunday trading in Scotland, as in England, is a matter for the people concerned, that it is no business of ours how people trade in England on a Sunday, but that most Scottish people support the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell)?

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Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments. A substantial number of people support both the Church of Scotland--the national church--and the Roman Catholic Church. There are more than 752,000 names on the Church of Scotland congregational roll and more than 745,000 on the Roman Catholic Church roll. That is the reality, and we would do well to keep it in mind.

Mr. McFall : Thirty-one per cent. of the Scottish population attend church. That is twice the number of Scots who support the Government's current policies. If we look at the Government's record on the family, we clearly see that "suffer the little children to come unto me" is not a motto which guides their actions. There are 800,000 people in Scotland on income support--that is one sixth of the population--and half of them are likely to be children living on the margins of society.

What future do those impoverished children face? No doubt, they will join the 8,700 16 and 17-year-olds who have been rendered destitute by the Government's failure and by their youth training scheme. [Hon. Members : -- "Question."] Instead of condemning the Church, will the Government join the side of the Church? Unlike the Samaritan, they walk on the other side of the road. Is it not ridiculous for the Government to take that action?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I am glad to reassure the hon. Gentleman that nearly £80 billion is spent on social services throughout the United Kingdom, which is an enormous sum. The hon. Gentleman will be reassured to know that we are undertaking research into vital sectors which can be of assistance in Scotland. They include the impact of the Child Support Act 1991 on civil law and strategies for integrated local authority child care. We will continue in that process.

Industry and Employment

2. Mr. Salmond : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met representatives of chambers of commerce to discuss industrial and employment trends in Scotland ; and if he will make a statement.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang) : My ministerial colleagues and I have frequent opportunities to discuss a range of industrial and employment issues with representatives of chambers of commerce and other organisations. I visited Aberdeen chamber last December and Glasgow chamber in February, and I attended the first annual dinner of the Scottish chambers of commerce in Edinburgh at the end of April.

Mr. Salmond : The Secretary of State will know that Aberdeen chamber of commerce, among many other organisations, is concerned about the impact of the oil tax changes that were announced in the Budget. The best estimates are that it could cost 10,000 jobs in the north-east of Scotland. Is it possible to have a straight answer to a straight question from the Secretary of State on this issue? Treasury Ministers have told the House that other Departments were consulted before the tax changes in the Budget. Was the Scottish Office consulted, and if not, why not?

Mr. Lang : Consultations on all kinds of aspects of the Budget take place with a number of Departments. As the hon. Gentleman knows, internal consultations within

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Government are never disclosed. What is clear from the changes proposed to the petroleum revenue tax is that some companies will benefit and some will suffer. What is also clear is that, in the longer term, there is every prospect of improved after-tax cash flow to companies as a result of the reduction in petroleum revenue tax. I have no doubt that the great success story of offshore exploration, reinforced by re-siting Department of Trade and Industry engineering and exploration jobs in Aberdeen, and reinforced again by the welcome announcement by Conoco only last week of the relocation of 200 jobs to Aberdeen, will continue.

Mr. Kynoch : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the percentage of the working population in Scotland in employment is one of the highest in the European Community, way ahead of that of Germany, France, Italy and Spain? That is most encouraging news, which we never hear from the doom and gloom mongers opposite.

Mr. Lang : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Only two countries in the European Community have a higher percentage of their population in employment. The encouraging statistics in the north-east of Scotland, where my hon. Friend's constituency is located, reinforce the encouraging prospects we face throughout the United Kingdom.

Mrs. Adams : The Secretary of State will recall that I have visited his Department on several occasions regarding the industrial devastation that has been wrought on my constituency. The latest casualty is Babcock in Renfrew, where we are to suffer yet another large redundancy, probably of 450 people. That is on top of 500 last month at Rolls-Royce. Along with my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, South (Mr. McMaster), I have continually asked for an initiative in Renfrew district to tackle the industrial problems we face. The Secretary of State has continually refused that. Will he now reconsider the matter?

Mr. Lang : The hon. Lady is being extremely unfair. There have been a number of initiatives in Renfrewshire over the past few years. The establishment of the Renfrewshire enterprise company is a major new initiative to encourage the regeneration of the economy of that area. The hon. Lady should draw comfort from the Scottish Chambers' survey which shows optimism up in almost every quarter and in almost every sector of the economy in Scotland.

Mr. Wallace : In his discussion with chambers of commerce, has the right hon. Gentleman had representations on the importance of maintaining the dockyard at Rosyth, not only in terms of jobs in Fife, but in terms of jobs throughout the Scottish economy? Those jobs include more than half the engineering apprenticeships in Scotland. Given that his predecessor, Lord Younger, has said that if the contract for the refitting of the nuclear submarines goes to Devonport, it will be an unacceptable breach of faith, is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to put his job on the line for the jobs of thousands of Scots?

Mr. Lang : The hon. Gentleman knows very well where I stand on that issue. I am sure that he is well aware of my involvement in the consideration of these issues within Government. However, as the matter is not yet resolved and not yet decided, I cannot say any more in detail about

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it today, except to underline to the hon. Gentleman and to the House that I shall lose no opportunity to ensure that every argument in favour of Rosyth is advanced.

Mr. Tom Clarke : Does the Secretary of State accept that that was a miserable reply, as the future of Rosyth is one of the most serious issues that Scotland has faced since the war, and certainly since Ravenscraig? Is he prepared to see 18,000 jobs lost? Is he prepared to see the merchant shipbuilding industry largely lost, along with an important dockyard? Will he, in addition to the right hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) who has some say in this matter, get off his backside and make it clear to the Prime Minister that if Rosyth closes, the Secretary of State is willing to go as well?

Mr. Lang : Clearly, the hon. Gentleman did not listen to my previous answer or to the announcement made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Defence some weeks ago. He made it clear that there would be two yards regardless of where the Trident refit contract was placed. The Opposition would carry more conviction on this issue if they had not systematically campaigned against our nuclear submarine and had not systematically campaigned for the cancellation of the last Trident submarine. They therefore carry no conviction on the issue whatever.

NHS Staff

3. Mr. Gallie : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many additional nurses and doctors have been employed in the NHS since 1979 ; and if he will make a statement.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart) : At 30 September 1992, there were 11,192 more qualified nurses employed in the national health service in Scotland than there were on 30 September 1979. The number of doctors, including general medical practitioners, increased by 1,448 over the same period.

Mr. Gallie : When there are more doctors and more nurses, whose pay has risen by more than 40 per cent. in recent times, when nurses and junior doctors have shorter working hours, and when there are new hospitals and new clinics, why do Opposition Members always tell us that the morale of staff in the health service is at a low ebb?

Mr. Stewart : As always, my hon. Friend is entirely right to say that, on this issue, as on other Scottish issues, Opposition Members are in the disinformation business. In real terms, NHS expenditure has increased by 45 per cent. since 1979-80, and on every indicator, the provision of services by the NHS in Scotland has improved steadily under this Government.

Mr. Canavan : Is the Minister aware of the concern among nurses and patients at Falkirk royal infirmary about the current threat to the hospital's urology department, and the general tendency of the Forth Valley health board gradually to run down the Falkirk royal infirmary and centralise everything at Stirling? Will the Minister intervene to ensure that that trend ceases and Falkirk royal infirmary can provide the full range of services that the people of Falkirk district need and deserve?

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Mr. Sewart : The hon. Gentleman will recognise that those are decisions for the health board. However, I can reassure the hon. Gentleman by saying that the resources made available to Forth Valley of £139.6 million for the current financial year represent an increase of 3.3 per cent. over the 1992-93 base purchaser allocation. That is a sign of the resources available, but detailed decisions must be for the health board to make.

Mr. Dickens : Does my hon. Friend recognise that the excellence of the health service in Scotland and elsewhere is such that people now, God willing, enjoy a much longer life? Is that not vividly illustrated by the fact that, in her first year on the throne Her Majesty the Queen sent 210 telegrams to 100-year-olds, and that last year she sent 2,800 congratulatory telegrams--[ Hon. Members :-- "All to Scotland?"] No, not all to Scotland. Does that not illustrate the merits of the national health service during the past 14 years under Conservative Governments?

Mr. Stewart : My hon. Friend is correct to say that more and more Scots are living longer and longer. My hon. Friend has given the House a useful indicator, and all other signs point in the same direction. Under this Government, the number of in-patients treated per annum has increased by 27 per cent. and day patients by 180 per cent. Every figure underlines the effectiveness of this Government's commitment to the national health service in Scotland.

Mr. Wray : Does the Minister agree that the health service is the most caring and compassionate profession? It is the profession's duty to protect the sanctity of human life, and a shiver has been sent through the old, the hospice movement and the disabled by the Bill on euthanasia. Will the Minister oppose it with all his might, and will the Government oppose it?

Mr. Stewart : All hon. Members will take their own decisions on that Bill in the light of their own consciences. Speaking as an hon. Member, not a Minister, I have received a large number of representations from constituents and from those invoved in the hospice movement, and they accord with my personal view, which is one of opposition to the Bill.

Mrs. Fyfe : Will the Minister tell us this afternoon about the growth in the number of senior managers in the last year? His own statistics, published by the Scottish Office, show that the number has risen by no less than 30 per cent. in one year alone. How many nurses and midwives in training have we lost in the past 12 years ; and how many beds have been lost in the past 12 years? More importantly, will the Minister state categorically what cuts he is contemplating for the health service when the Treasury comes looking for his share of the £50 billion deficit?

Mr. Stewart : There has been no increase in senior management numbers in the health service ; there has merely been a redefinition of the number of positions previously allocated to staff groups but now separately identified.

As for the hon. Lady's general point about cuts, there have been been no cuts in the health service or in provision for the health service in Scotland. [Laughter.] The hon. Lady laughs. She is clearly incapable of reading the figures. -- [Interruption.] --or of understanding them. How many

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more figures does she want? I can reassure her that provision for national health service spending in Scotland has increased not in nominal terms but in real terms by 45 per cent. since 1979 -80. The Opposition simply cannot deny these basic facts.

Scottish Homes Tenants

4. Mr. Home Robertson : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the choice of alternative landlords which is available for Scottish Homes tenants.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : It is for Scottish Homes, in consultation with its tenants, and within the scope of the guidance issued by my right hon. Friend, to make decisions on the choice of alternative landlords. Any proposals that secure the agreement of tenants are subject to his approval.

Mr. Home Robertson : Can the Minister think of a suitable name for a Government who legislate to allow tenants to choose new landlords but then refuse to allow the tenants to choose their preferred alternative landlord? Will he acknowledge the fact that three quarters of Scottish Homes' tenants in East Lothian have made it clear that they would prefer to choose East Lothian district council? Is he aware that that district council urgently needs more housing stock, and that the only obstacle to those tenants achieving their choice is a thrawn Tory in the Scottish Office who is not prepared to allow them what they want?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I am aware that East Lothian has a growing population--a factor which we will take into account. The current arrangements do not prevent a local authority from proposing to acquire Scottish Homes stock. It will be for Scottish Homes to decide whether there are special circumstances that would enable the local authority to become a suitable landlord.

Scottish Homes has considered one local authority in this connection. Its tenants in Berwickshire were given the opportunity to vote to transfer to the local authority, but a majority voted against. As I say, if Scottish Homes judges that special circumstances arise, then the local authority will have this opportunity.

Mr. McAllion : Is the Minister aware that the Government's unrelenting hostility to public sector housing is creating a kind of housing apartheid in Scotland ? Council housing is reduced to the status of a safety net for those who cannot afford anything else, and there is a real danger of creating in Scotland the sort of demoralised ghettos which have for so long scarred the American urban experience.

Why cannot the hon. Gentleman understand that the continued existence of tens of thousands of damp-ridden and decaying public sector houses is the responsibility of the Government ; and that the situation will improve only when he and other Ministers get off their backsides and start to assist public sector housing in Scotland?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : About £1 billion is spent on public sector housing each year. When the hon. Gentleman speaks about ghettos, he should bear in mind the fact that huge sums have been poured into Whitfield in his constituency, which both he and I have visited. The scheme is strongly supported by his constituents. The

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whole drift of our policy is to prevent what the hon. Gentleman suggests. I read a few days ago that the Labour candidate had a good chance of being re-elected against a Militant candidate because of the success of Conservative party policies.

Sir David Steel : The Minister's original answer is totally misleading. Does he not know that the number of tenants in Berwickshire that he referred to is six? We are not talking about special cases made to Scottish Homes but about the right of tenants generally to be able to choose either a private landlord or a local authority. Why cannot they be given that choice?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : They can be given that choice in special circumstances. I anticipate that Scottish Homes would examine such considerations as the number of properties involved, their location and the percentage of houses already held by the local authority. Obviously, in some areas the local authority may be virtually the monopoly provider of housing. Scottish Homes is justified in its approach. For operational, practical reasons it has decided that the ballot paper will contain two options--the status quo and a move to a specified landlord. The tenant's independent adviser should be able effectively to feed to Scottish Homes the tenants' views about who the preferred bidder should be.

Scotland in the Union--a partnership for good"

5. Mr. Galloway : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what further steps he has taken to assess public opinion in Scotland on his White Paper "Scotland in the Union--a partnership for good".

Mr. Lang : The White Paper "Scotland in the Union--a partnership for good" has received a very positive response.

Mr. Galloway : The dogs in the street are laughing at that answer. As the Secretary of State surveys the sea of troubles in which his unrepresentative rump is floundering, does he ever gaze across the water to Barcelona, where the Catalan conservative party, Convergence in Union, is outstandingly successful notwithstanding its conservative free-market views? It is successful because it flies its free market colours as well as its Catalan colours and is not seen as a traitor to its own people.

Would not the Secretary of State be well advised to study that example and organise a democratic referendum in Scotland, in which all the options facing the Scottish people could be tested? He could do himself and his party a favour and respect the democratic rights of the Scots by organising a referendum on this risible White Paper.

Mr. Lang : In terms of unrepresentative rumps, I am not sure whether I can hold a candle to the hon. Gentleman, since he quite clearly disagrees with, and is disagreed with by, the rest of his parliamentary party. When I look for public opinion support in Scotland, I look at a recent by-election in Turriff, which was won by the Conservative candidate with an increase of 300 in his vote. He beat the Scottish National party into second place by 700 votes. That is an endorsement by public opinion in Scotland. The Labour party's membership throughout Scotland has fallen to 17,834. That is representative of very little.

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Mr. Raymond S. Robertson : Does my right hon. Friend agree that before any political party in Scotland can claim to speak for and, indeed, be representative of the Scottish people, it must first be representative throughout the length and breadth of Scotland? By its own admission, the Labour party, with only 17,000 members, may be many things, but it is not representative.

Mr. Lang : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It was quite clear from the result of the last general election that the policies espoused by the Labour party were not supported.

Dr. Reid : Have we not reached a pathetic and sorry pass when an English Tory, the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) could recognise in Question 1 the distinctiveness--indeed, he used the word "uniqueness"--of Scottish culture better than the Secretary of State for Scotland?

Is it not pathetic that our country is presided over by a Prime Minister who boasts that he does not read our national newspaper and by four Scottish Office Ministers who have no idea of our national aspirations? If they believe that they represent Scotland in any way, why will they not do what my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway) asked, and organise a referendum to let the people of Scotland speak? That would be better than subjecting us to mealy-mouthed quotes.

Mr. Lang : It was my noble Friend Lady Thatcher who described a referendum as device to defeat democracy. I believe that the proposals in the White Paper will lead to the improvement of the handling of Scottish business here. I have written to the leaders of the other political parties and I am glad to say that the leader of the Scottish National Party has written back to me indicating that she is willing to take part in discussions on behalf of her party over the implementation of the proposals in the White Paper, "Scotland in the Union--a partnership for good."

Mr. Trimble : Does the Secretary of State intend to convene an all- party conference in Scotland on the White Paper? If he does not, does he appreciate the contrast between himself, who apparently does not want talks but has a policy, and his colleague the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who wants talks but does not have a policy?

Mr. Lang : I do not propose to call the conference to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I have indicated my willingness, indeed my enthusiasm, to discuss our proposals in detail with the leaders of the other political parties in Scotland. One of the distinctive features of the United Kingdom is the diversity of its component parts and one of the purposes of the White Paper is to accommodate that diversity as it is reflected in Scotland.

Mr. McLeish : Will the Secretary of State own up to the fact that public opinion in Scotland is of marginal interest to his beleaguered Administration? Does he not accept that only 16 per cent. of public opinion now supports the Conservative party, that 98 per cent. of public opinion overwhelmingly opposes the madcap idea of privatising water and that 80 per cent. of Scots want substantial constitutional change rather than Tory tinkering at Westminster? Surely the Secretary of State will accept that if public opinion is to triumph, he must mend his ways.

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More importantly, if it is to triumph, he must show that he is listening, or are we to see in future Tory losses mounting in Scotland at the same rate as his losses in Lloyd's?

Mr. Lang : Public opinion polls are, of course, of interest to the Labour party as its popularity is shown rather highly in them from time to time. The hon. Gentleman will understand why I regard them with a certain detached approach, given their predictions before the last general election. The poll which matters in a democratic country such as ours is the general election poll. That is the poll which leads to the choice of a Government.

Water

6. Mr. Chisholm : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his estimate of the cost of (a) the implementation of EC water directives over the next 15 years and (b) other water investment over the same period.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Sir Hector Monro) : The capital costs of meeting European Commission water and waste water directives and other investments is estimated at some £5 billion over the next 15 years divided equally between the two categories.

Mr. Chisholm : Does the Minister realise that the Scottish people are sick and tired of the figures he has given today being used as a cover for water privatisation? Does he not understand that people in my constituency do not want front door water privatisation or back door water privatisation, whether by franchising or competitive tendering? Why cannot water investment be paid for by public borrowing? Why on earth should that mean cuts in other public expenditure, as Ministers have claimed? If the Secretary of State has difficulty in persuading his Cabinet colleagues, why does he not remind them that the figure of £5 billion over 15 years announced by the Minister today was exactly the same as the water debt written off at one stroke by his Government in 1989 as sweetener to the newly privatised English water industry?

Sir Hector Monro : It is rather sad that the hon. Gentleman never listens to Questions in the House and apparently never reads the answers. I have explained to him and his Opposition colleagues time and again that they have to be patient. Another few weeks will make all the difference. They will find out what policy we intend to introduce from the six, seven, eight, nine or 10 options before us. If he waits until then he may have quite a surprise.

Mr. Gallie : Is my hon. Friend aware that Opposition Members have consistently opposed standing charges in public services? Is he aware that Labour-controlled Strathclyde regional council has just imposed a standing charge on water services? Does he not think that that is shameful?

Sir Hector Monro : My hon. Friend is well aware of the situation in his constituency and in surrounding areas. Water costs are extremely high in Scotland and have increased year by year, particularly over the past three years. That must be carefully considered in deciding our future policy.

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Mr. Kirkwood : Has the Minister considered allowing publicly controlled local water authorities access to private money markets in a way that does not count against the public sector borrowing requirement? That would solve at a stroke the problem to which he referred earlier of the need for capital investment without the ideological difficulties that will be created by privatisation. Earlier, the Minister said that we might get a surprise when the announcement is eventually made. That can only be interpreted as meaning that the Government are abandoning their privatisation plans.

Sir Hector Monro : The hon. Gentleman might be wrong again. If he is prepared to wait a few more weeks, he will find the answer to his concerns. His proposal is one of many that are being considered, and it has not been lost in the pile of results that have come in from all over Scotland.

Mr. Connarty : The Minister has been listening to the comments by some about the uniqueness of Scottish culture and morality. Will he go with that trend and give an assurance that we will not be surprised by the Government's abandoning the safeguard whereby in Scotland users cannot have their water supplies cut off--and that there will be no repeat of the terrible scenes at basic tenet of Scottish morality and civil law?

Sir Hector Monro : Regional councils have many ways of getting people to pay their water bills. Until we have the legislation, the hon. Gentleman must be patient.

Mr. Welsh : As the need for investment on a much smaller scale was a major reason given by the Government for abandoning water privatisation in Northern Ireland, will the Minister similarly abandon plans for privatisation in Scotland, where it is not needed--or is it simply a case of double standards?

Sir Hector Monro : I thought that the hon. Gentleman's rebellious approach to water would have stopped him asking any more questions. Like the rest of his colleagues, he will have to wait to see.

General Practitioners (Drug Dispensing)

7. Mr. Donohoe : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from residents of Springside and Crosshouse on preservation of the system of general practitioners dispensing drugs to their patients ; and what response he has made.

Mr. Stewart : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has not received any representations from residents of Springside and Crosshouse on the preservation of the system of general practitioners dispensing drugs to their patients.

Mr. Donohoe : That answer surprises me because the service that is on offer in Crosshouse is under severe threat. A chemist has decided to open for business, and that jeopardises a long-term solution that was in place, whereby Crosshouse general practitioners dispensed drugs themselves. Given that the Minister has heard nothing,

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will he meet my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. McKelvey) and myself to discuss the matter?

Mr. Stewart : I assure the hon. Gentleman that I understand the situation. He is correct in saying that a Crosshouse pharmacist applied for and was granted a national health service dispensing contract. The health board received correspondence from Crosshouse and Springside residents and a petition from Crosshouse community association. The board's pharmacy practice committee was aware of that correspondence when it reached its decision. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the matter went to the national appeals panel on 27 April, when the pharmacist's application was upheld. It would not be sensible for my right hon. Friend to intervene, given that all the appropriate procedures were observed.

Mr. McKelvey : The point that the Minister is missing is that elected representatives have tried to intervene and we have been told by the council that we have no authority to act on behalf of our constituents- -which I think is a damned cheek. More than 90 per cent. of the people in Crosshouse said that they were happy with the situation as it existed, but that was completely ignored by the committee and the appeals committee. What kind of patients charter is it when 90 per cent. of people are satisfied with the service but are overruled by a committee which takes no consideration whatsoever of their views?

Mr. Stewart : The point is that a pharmacist did apply for a NHS dispensing contract, which was granted. I think there are powerful general arguments for continuing the separation of prescribing and dispensing-- where that is generally sensible--because where there is such a separation the person writing the prescription will not be in a position to gain financially depending on the choice of drugs prescribed.

Caledonian MacBrayne

8. Mr. Graham : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement about the proposed review by the board of Caledonian MacBrayne at Gourock.

Mr. Lang : No review by the board of Caledonian MacBrayne has been proposed. However, the Government have decided to review options for the future organisation and structure of Caledonian MacBrayne, including the possible scope for introducing private sector participation in the provision of Caledonian MacBrayne's services.

Mr. Graham : Is the Secretary of State aware that, once again, he has created tremendous uncertainty in the Inverclyde area by the threat of privatisation and possible job losses? There is also a threat to the islanders, who have already stated that they expect privatisation to mean increases in fares, less frequent services and, at the end of the day, islanders once again being driven off the islands and back to the mainland. I know that the Secretary of State was born in Greenock. Another infamous character called Captain Kidd was also born there, and I must say that the Secretary of State will look like a pirate if he continues with this mad stupid policy to privatise any part of the Caledonian MacBrayne services.

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Mr. Lang : The hon. Gentleman is unfair to Greenock ; I was actually born in Glasgow. I hope that he shares my anxiety to remove any uncertainty and alarm among the people who use the Caledonian MacBrayne services. Caledonian MacBrayne provides services to the mainland and 23 islands, and we are committed to maintaining and advancing the economic and social conditions of the islanders. The question at issue is whether the present arrangements are the best way of fulfilling that commitment or can be improved on.

Mr. Macdonald : Will the Secretary of State give a commitment that the findings of the Halcrow Fox report in regard to the impact of ferry fares and ferry costs on island businesses will be published and not covered up? Does he recognise that islanders view the prospective privatisation of Caledonian MacBrayne as the poll tax at sea? The last thing that island businesses need at this time is a prolonged period of uncertainty about Caledonian MacBrayne's future.

Mr. Lang : The Halcrow Fox study has not yet been completed, let alone submitted to us. There is no question of its being buried away, as the hon. Gentleman implied, and not being taken into account. I know that the hon. Gentleman has tabled a written question, and that will be answered in due course. As to the islanders, I cannot believe that they hold the view of the Caledonian MacBrayne services that the hon. Gentleman describes. The revenue deficit subsidy stands at £7 million this year, and that represents some 18 per cent. of the company's total costs. We have substantially increased shipping subsidies--they now total over £17 million in Scotland as a whole--to ensure that the economic and social conditions of the islands are upheld and advanced.

Mrs. Ray Michie : Why is the Secretary of State returning to the matter? We went through it all in 1988, when it was made clear that the privatisation of Caledonian MacBrayne would lead to higher fares, increased freight costs, no cross-subsidies from profitable to unprofitable routes and no back-up vessels being available--all a body blow to the islanders. Will the Secretary of State tell the House how much this latest consultant review is to cost? Does he admit that he is in danger of being pushed around by a London-based Treasury, which does not give a tinker's damn about what happens to the islanders of Scotland?

Mr. Lang : I cannot at this stage tell the hon. Lady the cost of the survey, since we are still waiting for submissions from the various possible consultants who might be contracted to undertake it. Most of the 1988 review as concerned with the Clyde, whereas what we are reviewing at present is the Caldeonian MacBrayne services to all 23 islands that it serves and also P&O services to Orkney and Shetland, which are privately owned services subsidised by the taxpayer. It is because the cost of that subsidy and the support for both shipping lines have advanced so substantially that we want to make sure that we are using the most effective and efficient way of maintaining our commitment to uphold services to the islands.

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Damp Housing

9. Mr. Dunnachie : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he intends to take to measure and reduce the health risk to children of living in damp public sector housing.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : In preparing their next housing plans and housing capital programmes, due by the end of August, all local housing authorities have been asked to set out strategies and targets for tackling housing in their areas that is subject to condensation and dampness.

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