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If the hon. Gentleman is concerned about the official position of the Liberal Democrats, let me tell him that I have checked my diary and discovered that, on 25 February, I went to a meeting in the office of the Minister of State for Defence Procurement, who will wind up the debate. I was one of a number of Members of Parliament campaigning for the two-yard option--that is, for nuclear submarines at Rosyth and surface work at Devonport. All the hon. Gentleman had to do was ask his hon. Friend about our policy, if he was in any doubt.Mr. Nicholls : The hon. and learned Gentleman cuts such a ludicrous figure that I would like to think that, when I am campaigning in Teignbridge at the next election, he will speak on my platform. All I fear is his support. I do not know what his social diary may include ; I do not know at what times he meets my hon. Friends. I am talking about the lies, lies, lies and more lies told by the Liberal Democrats during the county council elections, about how we would be soft on Trident and they would make the final push.
Mr. Harris : Was the information given by the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) conveyed by the Liberal Democrats in Cornwall and Devon during the county council elections? I did not observe any such information ; I suspect that they sang a very different tune.
Mr. Nicholls : The tune is the one that I have mentioned. Yesterday, the cat was finally let out of the bag. Under some stiff questioning on the "Today" programme, the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke ; perhaps he was so cynical by then that he did not need stiff questioning to produce the information, but I shall do him the credit of believing that it was stiff questioning.
He said :
"Well, I have made a judgement in my capacity as the Defence spokesman for my Party I believe that the two yard solution can best be exemplified by sending the nuclear submarines to Rosyth and the surface ones to Devonport".
In an earlier intervention, the hon. and learned Gentleman said that he was just arguing a constituency point.
Mr. Nicholls : It is not just that the impression has changed from one house to another ; it has changed in the course of a debate. I could understand if the hon. and learned Gentleman was campaigning because Rosyth was in his own electoral yard, but he was saying that it was the official policy of his party to behave in this way. He was throwing the weight of his party behind an option that would have deprived the west country of what it needs.
The one thing that comes out of this business is that the Liberal Democrats have betrayed the people they claimed to champion. In all the celebrations tonight, the one thing that the Navy in Plymouth and the west country needs to know is that, when it came down to it, it was betrayed by the one party that pretended that it could be relied upon. I use this term in an entirely parliamentary way : it is utterly contemptible, and the people of the west country will not forget.
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9 pmMrs. Irene Adams (Paisley, North) : I am grateful for a few minutes to speak in the debate tonight ; I know how many hon. Members are waiting to get in.
Rosyth is not in or adjacent to my constituency ; it is a good few miles from it. However, such is the nature of the work at Rosyth that many jobs throughout Scotland are dependent on it.
Today, when this announcement was made, I asked the Secretary of State if he could tell us how he had come up with the figure of 450 redundancies at Rosyth. It never fails to surprise me how glibly the Government roll a figure of 450 job losses off their tongues. They seem to forget that the families of 450 people have seen their future go down the river tonight. That does not seem to mean a great deal to them.
If, when they were looking at Rosyth, they had given some thought to defence diversification, we might not be concerned about the jobs at Rosyth, but might be looking at putting jobs and training in other places.
My constituency will lose jobs because of the announcement today. I did not get an answer when I asked what the ancillary job loss would be. However, since it is estimated that 18,500 jobs in Scotland are dependent upon Rosyth, and therefore that there are five times as many jobs outside as inside the dockyard, I can only assume that there will be five times as many job losses throughout Scotland as there will be in the dockyard itself. That will mean a job loss of almost 2,500 in Scotland, not 450--and 450 is a very conservative estimate in anybody's book. It is estimated that of those 18,500 jobs there are probably about 1,800 in the vicinity of my constituency. I have to tell the House once again that, since the Conservatives came to power in 1979, my constituency has lost an unbelievable 89 per cent. of its manufacturing base. I know that that is difficult for the House to believe, and it is a sorry situation. It will certainly not be helped by the announcement that was made today, as Babcock Thorn, the major employer at Rosyth, is also the major employer in my constituency. Therefore, we will undoubtedly be affected once more by the job losses announced today.
The Government made no mention of training when they mentioned the redundancies. Again, Rosyth is the biggest trainer of apprentices in Scotland, and training jobs have gone completely down the river as well.
I recently visited Rolls-Royce in my constituency. It, too, is a major employer, and it has announced 450 job losses in my constituency in the last few weeks. Rolls-Royce tells me that in the last five years it has trained 36 apprentices. The last six will complete their training this year, after which the company has no plans to train any further apprentices. I have to assume that, if 450 jobs are going at Rosyth, there are a good number of apprenticeships going as well.
I can see no hope for my constituency in the announcement today for manufacturing jobs. All we have had in their place have been very low-paid service jobs, where people are working for between £1.20 and £2.40 an hour, with no future.
I am not greatly impressed by the promises that the Government have made today, because they have made promises in the past. We heard about Lord Younger's promise to keep Rosyth going for Scotland. In 1979, the same Lord Younger, when he was Secretary of State for Scotland, promised, when the first major job losses came
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in the west of Scotland at the Talbot car plant at Linwood, in the constituency of Renfrew, West and Inverclyde, that he would see what he could do to make sure that manufacturing stayed in that area. He promised that, even if we had to make rubber ducks, manufacturing would continue at Linwood. Not even a rubber duck is made at Linwood now. On that vast site, where once 5,000 people were employed, there are a few retail jobs and a few service jobs, but absolutely no manufacturing jobs.I can only assume that the same would be the case at Rosyth. Once more, we have empty promises, with nothing to back them up. It will be death by strangulation, as it has been in my constituency. We have not suffered a major job loss in one blow ; we have suffered death by a thousand cuts. That is exactly what is going to happen at Rosyth. We have not had the guarantees that we require from the Government. They continually tell us that we will get the job allocations, but I would be most grateful if, in winding up, the Minister will tell us that he guarantees that there will be only 450 job losses at Rosyth.
Dr. Godman : May I point out to my hon. Friend that, at the time of Scott Lithgow being pushed out of submarine building, similar promises were made by the same Ministers--Lord Younger and his then right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont). Those promises were utterly worthless. I share my hon. Friend's deep concern about the real number of jobs that will be lost.
Mrs. Adams : The promises have been worthless. They were worthless at Linwood and for the coal industry. They are worthless at Rosyth, too. I should be grateful if the Minister could point to promises that were not worthless.
I ask the Government again about the number of
redundancies--450--which I still question. What consultations have the Government had, and what estimates have they made of the ancillary job losses, both in the west of Scotland and throughout Scotland? 9.5 pm
Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset) : I intend to deal specifically with the calumny that has been put about by Opposition Members that in some way the Government have attempted to treat Rosyth unfairly. It is absolutely clear that the Government have bent over backwards to look after Rosyth and the Scottish defence industry.
It is interesting to speculate about what would have happened if the Opposition had become the party of Government at the last general election and if one of their shipyards, as it would have been then, had come to them and said, "We can save £250 million on the refitting of the Trident submarines by using an existing dock rather than building a new one." I am sure that they, as the party of Government, would have checked the figures for both Devonport and Rosyth. If Opposition Members believe that they would have thrown away £64 million of savings by awarding the contract to Rosyth rather than to Devonport, they should say so clearly.
What is the Government's record? At every stage, once Devonport began to bid for the contract, Devonport won against Rosyth. Did the Government immediately say, "Right, we'll go to Devonport and close the door on Rosyth."? No, they kept going back to Rosyth and saying,
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"Look at the figures again." Even when it became clear that Devonport would win the contract, I am absolutely certain that my right hon. and hon. Friends made every effort to ensure that work would go to Rosyth, so as to keep the two-base option that the Opposition talk about. However, they did not listen to what was said about that in today's statement.I shall give a small example, for the benefit of those who are going on BBC television at Rosyth at the moment regarding their belief that this is a political fix on behalf of Conservative Members with constituencies in the south-west. What we said clearly to the Government was, "You can't ask for fair competition between Devonport and Rosyth and then, when Devonport wins, turn to the Scottish Office and say, We understand the difficulties that the Conservative party faces in Scotland, so we'll take the work away from Devonport and give it to Rosyth.' "
Hon. Members will recall that time and again before the last general election the Royal Navy told the Government that it felt that it could close one of the Royal Navy bases--not one of the dockyards but one of the bases. The Royal Navy costed that out and found that there were real savings to be made by closing the Royal Navy base at Rosyth. The same costings showed that it was not cost-effective to close Portland. The Government acted to preserve jobs at Rosyth and to maintain the Royal Navy base there.
In order to keep to its long-term costings, the Royal Navy had to do a half closure of Portland, leaving the helicopters where they were, and save money at Portland. My constituents have paid the price of trying to look after the best interests of people in Rosyth. One has to remember that any money that is saved is saved for Scottish taxpayers as well as for English, Welsh and Northern Ireland taxpayers.
Mr. Salmond : Does the hon. Gentleman know what percentage of United Kingdom defence procurement is spent in Scotland? Does it surprise him to hear that it is well under the population's share?
Mr. Bruce : Considerable defence spending occurs in, for example, Fife and Faslane. The hon. Gentleman likes to chop the United Kingdom into parts and to speak separately of Scotland and England and so on. It is illogical to do that in this context because in parts of the country, such as in the south-west of England, enormous numbers of people are employed in the defence industries.
I invite the hon. Gentleman to spend his holidays in Dorset. He will discover how many Scottish accents can be heard among those living in Weymouth and Portland. Those Scots have come to work there. Indeed, I have a useful name when canvassing. All the people who live there are part and parcel of the nation's defence industries. The Government's proposals go to the heart of attempting to help Rosyth. The whingeing Jocks who have been sent here--not the Jocks who are back home, who are not the whingers--and who constantly try to put it about that the Government are not looking after the Scottish economy are a complete calumny and should be shown to be that. 9.11 pm
Mr. Martin O'Neill (Clackmannan) : We can do without the sort of Scottish-English nonsense that we just heard from the hon. Member for South Dorset (Mr.
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Bruce). Some of us, for one reason or another, have been involved with the dockyards question for a long time. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown)--who must be elsewhere for this part of the debate--and I were involved in the contractorisation measure, about which we had grave misgivings.At that time we worked equally with the work force in Devonport and Rosyth. Whenever I went to Devonport I received an extremely warm welcome. Such was the welcome for us and other Labour candidates when we visited the area that Labour won the seat. The same happened in Barrow, where the submarines about which we are talking are still being constructed.
My constituency is not part of Fife, though it adjoins Fife region. I pay tribute to the efforts of that region and all involved there for the work that they have done in the defence of their dockyard. About 350 people in my constituency are employed there. As my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, North (Mrs. Adams) said, innumerable places across the central belt of Scotland will be affected by the Government's decision. It is not a question of 350 or so jobs. Far more than that number of people will be involved. Hi-tech jobs in Fife were created specifically because of the character of the work carried out at the dockyard.
We are told that there will be an allocated programme, but the Secretary of State has been silent on the issue. He is not the most shrinking of violets in normal circumstances. He is not the sort of person--typical of advocates --to use one word when 10 will do. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is always prepared to define and refashion what he says. But tonight his silence is deafening. His coyness is an admission that the Government do not know what the size of the surface fleet will be. I recall in the 1980s hapless civil servants going before the Select Committee on Defence and being asked about the size of the fleet. The conventional wisdom, according to the defence White Papers of the time, was that it was about 50. A controversy was caused when the man replied, "It is probably 42 at the moment." He was called back the following week and the figure was 38. It then came down to 32 and now it is 35 to 40. Perhaps the Minister will give us the revised standard version of that figure. I make that point because we cannot believe any of the forecasts about the size of the fleet.
Since contractorisation, problems have been created for Rosyth and Devonport because of the changes in the profile of the fleet. There have not just been changes in the profile of the surface fleet. Half of this debate would not have been necessary had it not been for the decision of previous members of the Defence team to stop ordering SSN--strategic submarine nuclear--leaving a gap in the nuclear-powered fleet. For the benefit of the neanderthals on the Conservative Benches, there are nuclear submarines that do not carry nuclear weapons. That is what we are talking about.
I would not be unhappy if there had been a justification for the failure to continue ordering and it had been put in an appropriate defence context. We have yet to hear that. We no longer need the SSNs. We no longer need ships sitting in the north Atlantic listening for the Soviet fleet
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coming from its northern haunts. Therefore, for us to talk with any degree of certainty about the Rosyth dockyard is very dangerous. My next point has been alluded to, but it is worth repeating. The part of the work that is not allocated and will be up for competition may involve competition between Rosyth and Devonport. We know that Devonport has extensive wharf areas that could be used for doing bits and pieces of work. In fact, Devonport Management Ltd. is always complaining about its overheads because of the size and scale of the yard. The important point about Rosyth is that it is modern and compact and is using its space effectively. That enables the work force to move about easily when work needs to be done.My point is not just that DML will have an advantage. We must realise that the people at VSEL at Barrow, where the submarines are constructed, will not turn their backs on them. At the moment, they are desperate for any work that they can get. That is why they were able to get the work on the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Best of luck to them--if there is competitive tendering, to the victor the spoils. We must not kid ourselves that those companies will be standing idly by. We must not forget that Yarrow on the Clyde will be looking for work as well.
The assurances that have been given--if we can dignify the words by that description--are worthless. In the absence of any clear strategic justification for what is happening, everything that the Government say could be subject to change tomorrow.
This is the product of an extensive budgetary exercise. There are now savings. However, we find that there will be a saving of about £12 million on the capital budget out of a possible budget of about £240 million. The difference is 5 per cent. In revenue terms it is about £80 million out of a total budget of £3 billion. It has to be a close-run thing. Other considerations will have to be brought to bear. If there is to be only one centre for the maintenance of nuclear submarines, it seems sensible for it to be near the base from which the vessels operate. If that is the case, it must be Rosyth. There is a synergy for Devonport in these reduced circumstances. It is correct that the surface fleet can operate easily out of the southern waters. It can get into the Atlantic and to virtually any part of the globe that it wants. It is exceedingly difficult to ensure that such flexibility is available in Rosyth.
I argued at one stage that, if the size of the nuclear fleet were big enough, we should have two bases and two sets of facilities. That was perhaps gold plating--an allegation with which people who get close to defence arguments are sometimes tarnished, and I might have been wrong. I certainly would have been prepared to advance effective, strategic arguments and enter into a proper debate. We have yet to achieve that tonight, and I look to the Minister to provide it in his reply.
Will the Minister also state specifically what will be the size of the surface fleet of frigates and destroyers? We are not considering the small ships, which are important to Rosyth, but which could be easily dealt with in a number of other places--Yarrow, as I have mentioned, is just one such place. Plastic-bottom boats could go to Yarrow without any difficulty. Let us secure the big jobs for Rosyth to keep people in employment and guarantee its future.
I remember the last threat to Rosyth, when many of us said that its loss to Scotland would be equivalent to the
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loss of Ravenscraig. The numbers and the spin-off technologies are the same, and the assurances were given by the same people. They let us down last time and I do not doubt that they will do so again. 9.21 pmMrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton) : As a Member representing a Devon constituency, I join my colleagues in welcoming today's decision in favour of Devonport. My constituency is almost 50 miles from Devonport, but despite that my constituents work in the yard. I wish to mention another element which has not been mentioned but which is critical to Devonport and Rosyth--the importance of the dockyards as purchasers within the local economy. For example, in Devon and Cornwall, 600 companies which employ 30,000 people are suppliers to the Devonport dockyard, so today's decision is equally important to the small business community in the south-west, who primarily supply the dockyard. They and the chambers of commerce will greatly welcome today's decision.
In my capacity as a spokesman for the Small Business Bureau and Women into Business, I have been invited many times to speak to the small business community in Scotland. I therefore know that small businesses play an equally important role in the Rosyth area. We warmly welcomed today's statement about programmes for surface ships at Rosyth. Many Conservative Members, myself included, will pressure Ministers to maintain a credible and modern surface fleet, which we believe to be critical to Britain's capability as an island nation and to our integral role within NATO. I say to Opposition Members that Conservative Members will certainly welcome Ministers' efforts to ensure that Rosyth plays its full part in the commissioning of new ships for the surface fleet.
Opposition Members have used much strong language about today's decision. I shall not challenge each of their speeches, but it is important to challenge some of the comments that have been made. The word "strategic" has been used. Although I am not a military expert, my grandfather and brother were submariners so I am aware of the importance of the statement that my right hon. and learned Friend made this afternoon. My right hon. and learned Friend said : "But, more important, we are not able to accept any proposal which would deprive the Trident submarines of a dedicated emergency docking facility for significant periods ; which would mean that the single nuclear refuelling facility was used for all our submarines, so exposing us to unacceptable risks in the event of an incident or other difficulty ; and which, indeed, is untested from a technical and safety point of view."
It is extremely important that in peacetime, following an incident at sea involving a submarine, especially a nuclear submarine, we can deal effectively in dock with such problems. Having heard a first-hand account of a fire in a submarine, I am only too well aware of the way in which such incidents affect submariners.
I want to express support for the remarks of my hon. Friends, especially my hon. Friends the Members for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) and for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls). During the 1980s--before I became a Member of Parliament--I spoke for Peace through NATO. I spent many a long evening in many a village hall up and down the country and abroad debating the case for the NATO alliance. I
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argued for the nuclear deterrent on behalf of NATO. I spoke in support of the independent deterrent, which the Conservative party has protected.Mr. Ian Bruce : Where were the Opposition Members then?
Mrs. Browning : They were sitting on the other side of the platform, arguing the unilateralists' case, along with friends who are perhaps better known nationally for their association with Greenham Common. It is a bit rich to hear now from Opposition Members a long argument about how defence industry jobs will be lost. We are all concerned about that matter. It is understandable that hon. Members whose constituents are affected should make their representations. However, it must be remembered that, had matters been left to Labour Members or, as has been pointed out, to Liberal Democrat Members, there would be no nuclear submarines in this country. Having a nuclear deterrent was totally against their policies.
We have heard much cant about how this decision was taken by the Government. Why has there been such a sudden change of heart on the part of Labour and Liberal Democrat Members? Why have they suddenly embraced the nuclear deterrent? It is not because they share the conviction of Conservative Members about the stability of our role in NATO ; it is for party political, opportunist reasons only. My hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge quoted the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown). I have no need to quote the right hon. Gentleman, as indelibly printed on my memory is an occasion in the winter of 1983, just after the right hon. Gentleman became a Member of Parliament. He sat on one side of the platform of a village hall, arguing the unilateralists' case, while my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, (Lady Olga Maitland)--I regret that my hon. Friend is not present in the House--sat with me arguing the NATO case. Having been a Member of Parliament for only a year, I regard it as really quite something to hear such cant and hypocrisy. 9.27 pm
Mr. Michael Connarty (Falkirk, East) : I should like to take up the challenge that was thrown down by the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mrs. Browning) and by several others, including the Secretary of State for Defence, when they asked how we could defend the case for refitting Trident, a nuclear submarine with nuclear weapons, at Rosyth although we did not support Trident. The fact that I shall not do so at this stage--no doubt another opportunity will arise--is based not on any fear but on respect for my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid), who will undoubtedly deliver a resounding winding-up speech on our behalf.
Let me get to the substance of the question about where the Trident submarine should be maintained. I did not seek out Lords who had moved from ministerial positions to high directorships in banks for the purpose of finding out what people thought about this decision and of assessing the statement of the Secretary of State for Defence ; I took the trouble to phone people who work in Rosyth and who live in my constituency of Falkirk, East.
The naval base trade unions have put out a statement in which they "deplore the loss of work taken from Rosyth to try to secure the future employment of some Tory MPs."
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Union representatives met the base commander, Captain York, at 3.30 pm today and were amazed to find out that they would have to wait two weeks or more to see in print the logic of the Secretary of State for Defence and the Cabinet. They are shocked at the fact that they cannot debate immediately the facts that brought about the demise of some of the work that they would have had. They spoke to me in particular about the likely impact on the resources base of the naval yard.The naval base currently supplies Babcock Thorn with support equipment for submarine refits. Rosyth naval yard is a minor war vessel operating base, I am told. There is concern that that may not continue. I do not know whether it was a joke or a straight statement, but the union representatives said that they thought that there was a danger that the Secretary of State would turn it into a mini-minor war vessel operating base. I think that the word "mini" is used in the sense of "much shrunken" rather than as a reference to the old car.
The support service at the naval base must be safeguarded. Today, we heard only about the 450 jobs that are to go immediately because of today's decision, but the existing naval yard rundown plan already means the loss of 1,500 jobs in the next four to five years. We were still told that today's st00 jobs at the base, and I believe that they should be guaranteed --a word that seems to frighten the Secretary of State for Defence so much at the moment. Will the Minister of State for Defence Procurement guarantee that the 1,400 jobs will still exist at the end of the planned rundown?
Alternatively, will the support equipments that are presently sourced at Rosyth for Babcock Thorn be sourced at Devonport in future? If they are to be sourced at Devonport, will further jobs be transferred there from Rosyth? The workers have not been told ; perhaps the Secretary of State forgot to mention it.
Mike Gardiner, who lives at Bo'ness in my constituency, is the staff spokesman at Rosyth naval yard. He is also the vice-chair of the Whitley council for the employees. Like Mike and his members, I hold no brief for the anger levelled at the work force or the community of the Devonport area. This is not a nationalist question ; it is about Conservative incompetence and lack of feeling for the people who have given their lives to the naval yards in both areas. The workers and the House know who betrayed the people of Rosyth, and there is no doubt that it is a betrayal. The Secretaries of State for Scotland the right hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Lang) and for Defence the right hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) perpetrated what is a betrayal, given the promises made by previous Administrations. The Secretaries of State were supported by what I would call the bleating of the hon. Members for Ayr (Mr. Gallie), for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson) and for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch). I have labelled them the "Scottish Tory Members' own job club"-- hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil. I have every confidence that the work force at Rosyth will join the management in fighting for the yard's future. In the 100-day consultation period, I am sure that we shall fight alongside them. Even after the consultation period,
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regardless of the outcome, the work force and management will fight on the ground to try to win orders and secure their futures, but with no thanks to the Conservative Government.I remind the House that we have not yet reached 1994. The Government originally guaranteed the workers at Ravenscraig that the plant would survive at least until then. Scottish voters will remember that betrayal and this betrayal. I suggest that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Defence give Lord Younger a ring to see whether there are any jobs left in the City.
9.32 pm
Mr. Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) : The House may be wondering why a Member representing a London suburb is intervening in the heavy gunfire between Scotland and the west country. I do so because I had the privilege to serve in the Royal Navy for nine years, between 1961 and 1970. I was primarily a Devonport man but I visited all the nation's ports, including Rosyth.
I hope that the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) will not take it as a sign of disrespect if I say that I did not find Rosyth an especially attractive place, although we were always well received there after a hard exercise in the North sea. I had many good times there, and we were always pleased to arrive. Our favourite trick was to hold a sweepstake on the ship's bridge to see what time we would go under the Forth bridge ; the captain always seemed to win. We were always made welcome at Rosyth, and the ships always got fixed.
The Navy found that Devonport was, by and large, a more agreeable place. It had better weather, for a start, and was more popular among those on the lower deck and in the wardroom. I had the misfortune to be on board HMS Eagle when she ran aground in Plymouth sound in 1969. I was impressed by the ability of Devonport dockyard to dock the ship promptly and undertake repairs.
As users of Devonport's services, we also experienced the frustration of the dockyard's unionisation and its demarcation disputes. The overmanning led to the Labour Government reducing the dockyard's manpower by 4,000 between 1965 and 1969 and announcing a review in 1969 which resulted in a further 5,000 job losses. That puts today's announcement into perspective. I do not envy my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State the difficult decision that he has had to make. I consider that, in the changing circumstances, he is not bound by any announcement made in 1984. The decision is right for two fundamental reasons. The first is the location of Devonport in the western approaches, which gives it a central place in history. It is the port from which Drake set sail against the armada, and it is unthinkable for the Royal Navy to have any other strategic centre. Secondly, the decision is right on commercial grounds. Devonport was chosen because it represents the best value, and savings for the taxpayer, whom I represent. Yet we can still keep Rosyth open with a loss of only 450 jobs.
I listened to the speech by the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), and I have never in my life heard more hostages being given to fortune. First, he said that the announcement was divisive. If holding such a competition is divisive, so be it--let us have more divisiveness. The hon. Gentleman implied that
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he would not have held a competition, so the savings of £250 million that have been found would not have been realised. The hon. Gentleman said that simply because he opposes competition and the benefits that it brings.The hon. Gentleman also said that the position of the Secretary of State for Scotland, as a Scottish Member, was untenable. It would have been a darn sight more untenable if my right hon. Friend, as a Scottish Member, had favoured Rosyth and ignored the relative merits. Finally, the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley said that the Government were putting political dogma before the security of the nation. Coming as it does from the party that opposed the deployment of cruise missiles at the height of the cold war, that is nothing but cant, humbug and hypocrisy. I urge the House to support the Government.
9.36 pm
Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North) : I must tell the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) that we would have considered it untenable if the decision had been made purely on the basis of the nationality or the constituency interest of the Secretary of State, whether he had favoured Scotland or England, Rosyth or Devonport. The decision should have been based on strategic issues. It certainly should not have been based on the criterion used by the hon. Member for Croydon, South, with his naval experience--the fact that the climate in Devon is warmer. On that basis, we should have given the refitting work to the Bahamas. But the hon. Gentleman's argument was typical of the sort of speech that we have heard tonight. Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing us this emergency debate. It is the first since 13 April 1988, and the first that you have granted in your illustrious capacity as Speaker. We recognise that you granted the debate not for any parochial or regional reason, nor for any narrow political reason, but because of the importance of the issue.
Lest there be any doubt in anyone's mind, let me make it plain both personally and on behalf of the Labour party that we pay tribute to the workers, management and representatives of both yards. I bear no ill will towards the workers of Devonport, any more than we did towards the workers of Swan Hunter when we had half a day's debate on that subject less than a month ago. We bear no ill will towards any workers fighting against the decline and decay of their manufacturing industries. We blame no group of workers anywhere in Britain for trying to secure their future and that of their families. That is one reason why we argued for a two-yard solution.
However, I bear ill will towards a Government who make what should be a strategic defence decision by turning community against community in this country, when all our communities are suffering the decline and decay of our traditional industries. One of the local Members of Parliament, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Mr. Streeter), made that decline clear in his speech--and what a commentary that was on the miserable failure of the Government's economic and industrial policies. The Government's attempt to achieve vital strategic defence decisions purely on the basis of the cost- cutting mentality of the bazaar has led to the dereliction of their duty as strategically oriented defence Ministers on behalf of the United Kingdom. The accusation tonight is not of parochialism or nationalism--it is that the Secretary of State for Defence is guilty of
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a lack of strategic defence analysis, a misunderstanding of the competitive policy that he said he wishes to foster, months of dithering and delay which have led to distress for all parties in this competitive procedure, and years of deception.Our position was made clear at least a year before the Government discovered what they now call the two-yard solution. We made it clear that, as long as the Trident system is a vital part of our security posture, it is simply crazy to have only one facility in Great Britain where it can be refitted, repaired and serviced. Therefore, both Rosyth and Devonport should have been kept open to retain the capacity to handle Trident in addition to nuclear-powered submarines and conventional ones. The decision is another example of a Treasury-driven policy.
Mr. Rifkind rose --
Dr. Reid : I have only 10 minutes, so I will not give way unless the Secretary of State withdraws the wrong but presumably not malicious allegation that he made against me earlier.
Mr. Rifkind : I accept that the hon. Gentleman called for the cancellation of one of the Trident boats, which would have had major implications. The reason why I wanted to intervene is that he said that the Labour party believed that both Rosyth and Devonport should be provided with facilities for the refitting of Trident submarines. Has he worked out what the cost of that would be? Is he suggesting that a Labour Government would find hundreds of millions of pounds to ensure that the second yard had the expensive Trident refitting requirements?
Dr. Reid : The Secretary of State managed to make two mistakes in his intervention. First, I did not call for the cancellation of the fourth Trident. Secondly, I did not say "facilities"--I said "capability". [Interruption.] He should check that in Hansard. It is an important distinction.
If the Secretary of State wants me to answer the question whether it is sometimes in the interests of the strategic defence of the country to subsidise a project, rather than always taking a decision on the cost- cutting basis of the bazaar, the answer is yes. Indeed, in his relatively short time in the Ministry of Defence he may not have found that the £20 billion that is spent every year is a subsidy because it is direct expenditure from the public purse and by the taxpayer. That is our complaint.
The Secretary of State told us that he gave us guarantees at some stage. What is the guarantee that the same thing will not happen to Rosyth as happened to the guarantees over Ravenscraig? What is the guarantee that the same will not happen to the frigate fleet of about 50, which became about 40 and is now about 30? Indeed, the Secretary of State, who is engrossed in briefing his colleague, did not use the word "guarantee". He is a Queen's Counsel and is praised as one of the brightest minds at the Scottish Bar. Yet he told us that he does not see any difference between "allocation" and "guarantee". If he does not understand the difference in plain English between allocating work and giving a guarantee that the work will eventually end up in a yard, he should not be at the Scottish Bar or in charge of the Ministry of Defence because he will end up giving a guarantee of everything to everyone.
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I will not refer to the promises that have been made tonight because other hon. Members have already referred to them. When we talk about those promises, let me make it clear that the Secretary of State cannot distance himself from the statements that have been made and the pledges given by the Government to the Rosyth workers over the past eight years. If those promises and pledges had been given to the workers at Devonport by his predecessors in the name of Her Majesty's Government, we would be taking the Government to task in exactly the same way. It is one long record.While I am talking about promises and changing of minds, it comes difficult for us to hear the previous Secretary of State for Scotland accusing people in the Chamber of changing their minds on steel, Trident or anything else. He is the man who pledged his undying commitment to Scottish devolution and sold out for 30 pieces of Cabinet silver and his first foot up the greasy pole. None of us will take lectures from the Secretary of State about changing our minds. The Secretary of State treated us to a bizarre spectacle tonight. He cannot hide behind the Ministry of Defence or the chiefs of staff. He cannot huddle in his bunker in the Ministry of Defence because the man who was sitting in the Scottish Office as Secretary of State for Scotland was the very man who stood before us tonight and broke every one of the pledges made by the former Secretary of State for Defence and other Ministers to people in Rosyth and Scotland. He acquiesced in their statements. Indeed, he revelled in the assurances given to the workers of Rosyth. Today he has led the way in the betrayal of every one of those promises. For that, he will not be forgotten in Scotland.
I finish not with Scotland but with Devonport. Tonight I warn the workers at Devonport in the same way as we warned the workers at Swan Hunter and others warned workers throughout the country, including Ravenscraig. They should not take a simple opportunistic decision based on short-term political criteria from a Tory Government as a guarantee of their future. It will be as shaky in the long run as the promises that have been made tonight to the workers at Rosyth. Especially in defence policy, the Government have no strategic analysis. They have no commitment to promises given. They have no friends. They have one aim, and it is not the defence of Britain--it is the survival of those who sit on the Government Front Bench. We shall not forget that, and in the long run the workers at Devonport will not forget it either.
9.46 pm
The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Jonathan Aitken) : Madam Speaker, we welcome your decision to grant the debate tonight. [Interruption.] We welcome it even more now that we have heard the Opposition's case. It is to spend more taxpayers' money, to give away the whole Trident submarine programme according to all the policies that the Labour party has outlined for years, and to produce a piece of complete rubbish as an argument and a case tonight. We must begin by emphasising that we are debating a truly national issue. The issue is the right location for our
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submarine refitting. One would not have thought that we were discussing a national issue from listening to the case that the Opposition deployed tonight.It is astonishing how conspicuous by their absence have been the Opposition Members who for months have come to my office and to the Chamber arguing for the nuclear refitting facility to be placed at Devonport. For example, where is the leader of the Liberal party, the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown)? Where are the other Liberal Members who campaigned throughout the west country in the county council elections such as the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor)? On the Labour Benches, where are such characters as the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Jamieson)? It seems that they have all been sent home for supper. [ Hon. Members :-- "He is here."] The hon. Member for Devonport is conspicuous by his silence. Tonight we have been treated to a parochial Scottish wake which was not justified. The lugubrious pessimism, breast beating and lamentations have not proved justified. The Opposition have not given credit to my right hon. and learned Friend for battling for and winning a 12-year allocated programme for surface ship refits for Rosyth. It will result in 18 major warships and 49 minor war vessels being refitted at Rosyth, including, we hope, the Ark Royal and the carriers, which will be available to Rosyth for the allocated programme.
Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North) : Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Aitken : No, I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman as he has not participated in the debate.
What we have heard from the Opposition is the stunning argument that--
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