House of Commons Hansard Debates for 30 Jun 1993

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and tested Boundary Commission system and ensure that there is no power to have consultation and public inquiries. However, Opposition Members have shown that that is not the way forward if there is the political will. That political will is missing on the Government Front Bench.

I hope that enough has been said this evening to ensure that the Government will rethink, even at this late stage. I hope, therefore, that the House will support the reasoned amendment in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends.

Mr. Dalyell : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I make not the slightest complaint about the Chair's choice of Opposition Members to speak in the debate. However, may I place on the record the fact that, although the Opposition amendment refers to Scotland, no Scottish Labour Member was called during the debate?

May I also ask formally, through the Chair, whether the Chair will consider the contribution of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash), who spoke for 38 minutes, as that was the root cause of the trouble? Some of us think that his contribution had nothing to do with the Bill, but had to do with other things. Could that be looked at in the cold light of day?

Madam Deputy Speaker : As the hon. Gentleman has been a Member of this House for many years, he will know that there is always a problem in allowing a sufficient number of hon. Members to participate in a debate and in trying to balance all considerations. As to the length of speeches, the hon. Gentleman will also know that there is very little that the Chair can do except in strictly defined circumstances, which do not apply tonight. No doubt the points that he made will be taken on board.

9.15 pm

Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) : This has been a unique experience for me. We have today had a genuine debate with genuine exchanges across the Floor of the House, rather than the normal setpiece speeches followed by a routine vote at the end. There has been give and take and cross-party agreement and disagreement. I hope that the Home Secretary will ponder carefully on what we have achieved and will think of the possibility of the Government being defeated on our amendment, on the Bill on Second Reading, in Committee and even on Third Reading. I hope that the rational and thoughtful discussion that has occurred in the Chamber

today--complemented, I understand, by discussions behind the Chair in an equally rational and thoughtful way--will produce a measure on which hon. Members of all parties can agree when, or if, we reach the Committee stage.

We take too many aspects of our democracy for granted, such as the right to contest elections with honest boundaries and even the right of all people to vote. Such rights are recent achievements historically. They have been hard won, wrung from reluctant governments by outside pressures.

A democracy must constantly be vigilant to protect and extend those freedoms. That is particularly true given the all-powerful Executive that we have in Britain's centralised state. The threat is even more serious with an Executive grown fat and arrogant after 14 years of the virtually

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unchallenged accumulation of power. They think that they can do anything and, in a system without serious democratic checks, they can. The only restraint is self-discipline, and that evaporated a long time ago. That is the background against which the Conservatives have turned the European boundary review into a shambles and an affront to our democratic traditions.

We should today be celebrating the entry into the democratic family of another member. I refer to the present-day unity of Germany, East Germany having joined the community of nations in western Europe. That should be a cause for champagne corks to pop. But what we have in the Bill is a sordid disgrace when compared with the efforts of those people and the liberation and democratisation bid that their society made a couple of years ago.

The Government are seeking to bypass the accepted democratic process of referring matters such as European boundary reviews to the independent and universally respected Boundary Commission. They seek to bypass that process rather than follow a long-standing tradition in this country. If Parliament allows that to happen, we shall be palming off responsibility to the new European parliamentary constituencies committees. It will represent the first use of ad hoc committees for drawing electoral boundaries since legislation was passed in 1944 setting up the Boundary Commissions. The Government are taking democracy back 50 years. It seems that even the institutions of democracy can be tampered with almost to the point of privatisation.

From Labour's point of view, when the time comes it will not be enough merely for us to right that wrong. We shall need to put such central elements of our democracy beyond the whim of this or that Government, whatever their political colour. The Boundary Commissions must be separate and immune from Government interference. The Home Secretary, perhaps due to inexperience of his Department, may have been led astray a little. Certainly the first job that his Department has given him is to bin a commitment made by the Prime Minister, who said that six extra MEPs would mean fresh boundaries being set across England, Scotland and Wales and that that would be a matter for the Boundary Commissions and not for the Government. That one bites the dust and goes in the bin straightway, in the first week of the new Home Secretary's regime.

The Prime Minister knew what he was doing--at least, in this case. At that time the United Kingdom held the presidency of the Council of Ministers, and the Prime Minister obviously knew that extra seats would be allocated to the United Kingdom. He did not stumble into this ; he made a clear commitment that the job would be done by the Boundary Commissions. Then along came the Home Secretary, who tore the commitment up within his first couple of weeks in office.

Mrs. Currie : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Allen : I am pleased to give way to the hon. Lady, as she was very kind a few moments ago in not pressing her right to speak.

Mrs. Currie : While I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, I should point out that no Member has a right to speak ; it is always a privilege.

The hon. Gentleman may have been mistaken when he said a moment ago that this is the first time since 1944 we

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shall not have had a proper Boundary Commission procedure. The Library's research paper points out that schedule 2 to the European Parliamentary Elections Act 1978, under which the 1979 constituencies were drawn up,

"laid down a very much curtailed version of the normal Boundary Commission procedures to enable the work to be carried out in time for the first elections."

The paper goes on :

"These were accepted without modification by the then Government, which laid the necessary European Assembly constituency orders approved in December 1978."

If the Library is right, this has happened before. Indeed, it happened under the last Labour Government.

Mr. Allen : I shall deal later with the hon. Lady's point, which is similar to that that she made in an intervention earlier. When I get to that stage, she may regret having reminded me of it.

The Home Office press release accompanying the Bill stated that the committees would be impartial and independent. When one looks at the Government's record in similar circumstances, it is hard to be reassured. One thinks of local health authorities and of the new police authorities that were announced yesterday--no doubt, to be presented as paragons of impartiality and independence, but more likely to be ad hoc committees composed of the usual crop of well-trusted Tory party appointees and apparatchiks, and staffed by the politically vetted. [Interruption.] Conservative Members groan, but I am afraid that the reality of local health authorities is very much along those lines. For the reality of the police authorities and these committees we shall have to wait. The Government have not yet told us who the members of the committees will be. They gave us four assurances today, which, I am glad to say, will be listed in Hansard. We shall read them with great interest. Even if some members of the committees are seconded from the Boundary Commission, they will be exposed to additional pressures--no doubt some of it political--which may compromise any recommendations they make. If Boundary Commission people are loaned, and if their functions are to be the same as commission functions, why was the job not given to the Boundary Commission in the first place?

The hon. Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie) mentioned previous occasions. Earlier interventions from Conservative Members drew attention to the 1979 undertaking that this would be a one-off arrangement, that never again would there be no Boundary Commission procedure. I suppose that what we have now might, technically, be referred to as a two-off. If we are to have another one-off, just 13 or 14 years after the last one, why does the Bill not make it clear that in future the Boundary Commission itself will be responsible for any such revisions?

Mr. Peter Lloyd : Clause 2 does just that.

Mr. Allen : Is clause 2 a one-off? Perhaps the Minister of State can reassure us.

In our view, the Boundary Commission should do this job, this time and in the future. It is an impartial and well respected body, and it should not be subverted, even for the rather thin reasons being put forward by the Secretary of State.

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Today, in our view, the Home Secretary did not at all make the case that the European parliamentary constituency committees will be able to do the job more quickly than the Boundary Commission could. There is a timetable available and it could be fitted in with the Boundary Commission's own potential for fulfilling the drawing of boundaries. Again, it looks very much as if the Home Secretary, landing fairly new to the Department, has been given some advice--no doubt well meaning advice--that the Boundary Commission could not fulfil the task. I believe that it was bad advice and that the Home Secretary accepted advice which his predecessor may have challenged or even overturned, telling the Department to get on with the job. That may not be the new Secretary of State's way of managing his Department.

The European constituency committees lack not only the widely acknowledged independence, integrity and trust enjoyed by the Boundary Commission but its consultative responsibilities. Vital to any boundary-drawing process is the consultation with those who are most affected by boundary changes--the relevant local electorate. The parliamentary Boundary Commissions publish provi-sional recommendations as part of their review, which means that procedures then exist for local inquiries in the event of objections from an interested local authority or a body of 500 or more electors before the finalisation of the parliamentary boundaries.

No such statutory responsibilities exist for the European constituency committees. It is essential that the inquiries are restored to the proposals. As has been said by members of all parties, 70 per cent. of the provisional recommendations are changed during the process, but the Government are seeking to remove that possibility and the potential number of changes.

Whatever assurances the Government give about providing adequate opportunity for consultation, we shall not be satisfied until they appear in the Bill. If the Home Secretary believes that consultation is a necessary and vital part of the boundary-drawing process, as the Labour party believes, he should include it in the Bill. Britain's democratic heritage should not rely on the devalued and debased currency of Tory ministerial assurances.

It is vital that the time wasted by the Government is not made up at the expense of adequate and proper public consultation on proposed boundary changes. The public deserve the right to be able to respond in exactly the same way as they do when our Westminster boundaries are changed. We would not accept the new procedure for ourselves, and it is not fair, in the traditions of the House, for us to impose it on other elected representatives.

The Home Secretary complains that there is little or no time to institute such detailed inquiries because the European elections are less than a year away, on 9 June 1994. It is hard to muster any sympathy for him as it is his Government's fault that they cannot manage their business properly. However, the temptation once again to let the Government swing because of their inadequacies and incompetence must be tempered by the fact that it is our constituents--the constituents of Members of the European Parliament-- who will suffer unless we get the Bill right.

I am going to suggest to the Minister of State a way forward. I ask him, now or when he replies to the debate, to undertake to appoint someone who will meet a representative appointed by the Labour party--no doubt other parties too will wish to be involved--so that they can

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discuss together how the timetable can be amended to accommodate the usual process of public inquiry on boundary redistribution. That is the only satisfactory way to meet the objectives of all parties and ensure that a vital element is not excluded from the procedure. If the Minister wishes to respond to that offer, I shall be pleased to give way to him.

Mr. Peter Lloyd : I shall respond now so that the point is not lost in some of the other remarks that I will make. The Government will be pleased to take up the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that a representative of the Opposition and an official of the Home Secretary should meet to consider the timetable proposed--about which I shall say something later-- and examine it very carefully. I think that we will find that the timetable is as pressing as we have said, and as the Home Secretary explained.

We would like as much consultation as possible, but I cannot give the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends any indication that the Government believe that it is possible to speed up the timetable. If the respresentatives of the Opposition can persuade us otherwise, we will be interested in being so persuaded. I hope that the representatives of the Opposition will be equally open-minded.

Mr. Allen : If the Minister is putting forward the proposal with an open mind, it is something that we shall be very pleased to take up. I hope that a representative, or several representatives, of the Opposition can make such representations. We believe that there is leeway in the timetable set by the Government, and time for us to insert in it, to the satisfaction of all parties, a period during which a genuine public inquiry procedure could be conducted without compromising that timetable.

Mrs. Ewing : For clarification, how many representatives of the Opposition parties will be involved? Different views must be respected, and I would be grateful if he could say whether one representative from the minority parties will be selected, or whether all the minority parties will be represented.

Mr. Allen : I hope that the hon. Lady will take it from me on trust that we are attempting to make the Bill better. We are trying to convince the Government that there is provision in their timetable for a full public inquiry. We will consult as widely as possible and, through the usual channels, arrive at a means of ensuring proper contact with the Government. I cannot make up policy on the hoof, but I would be pleased if the hon. Lady and her colleagues considered the matter through the usual channels.

If the Secretary of State and his Ministers are open minded, the Bill can be improved. We can ensure that a public consultation period and a public inquiry procedure is restored to the Bill. If we achieve nothing else, we will have done a serious night's work if the Government are prepared to respond to that proposal--before the Committee stage, I hope.

Mr. Cash : The hon. Gentleman knows what is contained in the Bill. This is a Second Reading debate, so will he come clean and tell us how the Opposition will vote

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tonight? In that way, all the rhetoric and fast bowling to which he is subjecting the Government will be seen in practice in the Lobby.

Mr. Allen : I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that I have just opened my innings. I am sure that he will be even more interested in what the Minister says. Having made the sort of speech that he did this evening, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be equally behind any effort to restore the public inquiry to the British democratic tradition, as it applies to the European parliamentary elections.

The Government have had eight long months since the Edinburgh conference to bring forward proposals. We have very little sympathy with the Home Secretary when he bleats about the pressure of time because the first Bill that he has brought forward since he took that office is shoddy and slap- dash. If the Government had introduced the Bill in January, as they should have done, it would have allowed a reasonable period for boundaries to be drawn. The Government appear to have adopted a Rolf Harris approach to drawing boundaries ; they have done it in the shortest possible time, in the vague hope that if one stands well back the final product will at least be a little bit recognisable.

We all know why the Government have taken so long to bring forward the proposals. They were afraid of their party within the party--the party represented by the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash). I am sure that many of his colleagues enjoyed his long speech--it brought back memories of the Maastricht debate for many people.

The Europhobes have their chance to develop beyond esoteric proceduralism tonight and in Committee. They centre their Maastricht case on defending British democracy. Nothing requires a stouter defence than our right to vote on fair boundaries drawn up by an impartial Boundary Commission. In Committee, we will see whether their commitment is to defending our democracy or something else. They must define democracy more widely than simply as the right of a Conservative Government to tell a Conservative Parliament what to do.

We know the reputed views of the Secretary of State on matters European. It was sad to hear him say that he was prepared to veto extra seats for other European nations, especially the new Germany. Everyone in Europe would lose seats if the Secretary of State's suicidal plan went forward along those lines. I am sure that the House will join me in congratulating him on the way in which he managed to talk with apparent enthusiasm for European democracy while simultaneously grinding his teeth. The strength of his performance does not excuse the way in which he and his colleagues are willing to play internal party politics with our electoral process.

In conclusion, when power is prized over democracy, sidestepping the Boundary Commission slips seamlessly into raising funds from dubious sources to fight elections, repaying donors with titles and peerages and recurring allegations of vote stealing from the elderly, the infirm and others, in St. Ives last year and Brighton this year. The difference is that, whereas those sleazy activities took place privately or on a party political basis, Parliament is being asked to authorise and to collaborate with the Conservative abuse of democracy.

The record shows that, for the Conservatives, our democracy is simply a process to be manipulated, distorted and reshaped for the benefit of the Conservative party. The

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Parliament that it controls is being drawn into the web. It will drag Parliament further into disrepute and hasten the day that fundamental reform is enacted to return both our Parliament and our democracy to a position worthy of public respect.

9.37 pm

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : The hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) characteristically talked a great deal of extravagant nonsense about the Bill and a number of other matters. He does that accidentally because he does not understand the debate, as was clearly evinced when he accused my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary of being prepared to veto extra seats for the United Kingdom and others. My right hon. and learned Friend most certainly did not say that. If the hon. Gentleman inspects the record--if he is capable of reading--he will see that that is simply not the case.

The whole purpose of the Bill is to secure extra seats for the United Kingdom and others. From time to time, the hon. Gentleman deviated to make one or two sensible points, to one of which I gave him an answer. I shall come back to the other points later. Before I take up the points made by the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members, I shall set out once again why we have the Bill now and why it has taken the form that it does. Those two simple matters were at times heavily overlaid by the range of issues that were properly raised, and by the vigour with which they were sometimes addressed. The Bill has been introduced, not as a result of Maastricht or of any changes in the power or scope of the European Parliament, but because Germany has reunited, as the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) and the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon) reminded us. It was agreed at the Edinburgh summit under the United Kingdom presidency that Germany should have 18 more seats to

acknowledge--sparingly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) intervened to say--the 17 million extra voters that it acquired with East Germany. At the same time, the United Kingdom, France and Italy secured six more seats each, while smaller countries gained fewer or none.

The result is that the distribution of seats between the member countries will reflect a little more accurately the size of their electorates. That point was missed by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) in his interesting speech, and is one from which the right hon. Member for Strangford will take, to judge from his remarks, a morsel of comfort.

We have thought long and carefully about how the United Kingdom's extra seats should be distributed between the countries of the Union. The Home Secretary explained in his opening speech that, at present, the average size of a European Parliament electorate in England is larger than in Scotland and in Northern Ireland, but slightly smaller than in Wales.

Mr. Dalyell : Will the Minister explain why that was not thought of before? Scottish Members will have to explain the promise made by the Secretary of State for Scotland in introducing the White Paper "Taking Stock" and repeated in St. Andrews in November 1992. The promise may have been unwise and I was surprised that the Secretary of State

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made it, but nevertheless it was made. Scottish Members are entitled to an explanation of why it has not been honoured.

Mr. Lloyd : The Secretary of State for Scotland must explain his own paper, which I have not read. I have stated that there was a great deal of discussion about the fairest way to distribute the extra seats. We decided that it was to take the average sizes of the electorates in the constituencies of the countries of the United Kingdom and distribute the seats accordingly. That is why there is an extra seat for Wales, the area of the country with the largest average electorate at the moment. It is right that the seat should go to Wales.

Mr. Dalyell : All of that was obvious in 1992. I am not challenging what the Minister is saying. I am asking him to help Scottish Members by telling us how we can explain away the extraordinary promises of the Secretary of State. Those promises were made at a time when he wanted to ingratiate himself with Scotland.

Mr. Lloyd : I cannot answer for the Secretary of State for Scotland. I did not read that particular paper. I can answer that the Government's decision was to distribute the seats according to the average sizes of electorate in each country.

Mrs. Ewing : Does the Minister recall the point that I made earlier? When the original decision was taken that the United Kingdom should be allocated either 81 or 82 seats in advance of the first direct elections, the argument for that number of seats was won on the basis that Scotland should have 10 seats and Wales should have five. Wales has now been brought up to five seats, while Scotland remains with only eight. It seems almost as if negotiations have taken place and arguments have been put forward that now disadvantage the people of Scotland. Those arguments originally advantaged the people of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Peter Lloyd : That is nonsense. Scotland is not being disadvantaged. Wales was being disadvantaged, which is why the extra seat has gone to Wales. It will result in Wales, such is its small size, switching from being the country with the highest average electorate per Euro constituency to the lowest. With a small population, a difference of one seat takes it from top to bottom. I understand why the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) and other Scottish Members are disappointed that there is no extra seat for Scotland. I understand perfectly why Opposition Front- Bench spokesmen--I was going to say with so many Scottish Members behind them, but Scottish Members are not here--feel obliged to demonstrate their outrage at the absence of a new seat for Scotland, but the arithmetic and simple honesty ought to compel Opposition Members to admit privately to themselves, even if they cannot do so publicly, that another seat for Scotland cannot be justified.

Even with five extra seats, the average English European constituency will still have 4 per cent. more electors than the average Scottish constituency. To give one more seat to Scotland and take one away from England would increase that disparity still further to 16 per cent.

Mrs. Currie : Is not at least part of the answer that those of us who represent English constituencies have made a

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fuss about it? We are pleased that the Government have heard. Is it not a matter of fact that, of the 63 English European constituencies, 60 have electorates of more than 500,000, but of the eight Scottish constituencies, half have electorates of fewer than 500,000?

Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend's statistics are correct, but the first part of her remarks was not. It was not a matter of pressure and making representations. The Government determined what was objectively the fairest way of distributing the seats.

I have listened with care almost all evening and, apart from one argument to whParliament than England. The one argument that requires an answer is that Scotland must have an extra seat because one of its constituencies-- Highlands and Islands--is extremely large in area. However, although its area is indeed vast, it has one of the smallest European electorates in the United Kingdom. Its electorate is 327,000, compared with the average of 490,000 for Scotland as a whole. Of course, electoral law makes some allowance for sparseness of population. Highlands and Islands has obviously benefited from that discretion, but I doubt whether, if Scotland had an extra seat, the Boundary Commission or any informal committee operating under the same guidelines would feel able to increase the disparity between the electorates in Highlands and Islands and the rest of the Scottish seats sufficiently to make much difference. The extra seat would surely have to be used mainly to reduce in terms of number of electors the average size of seats in highly populated areas of Scotland.

Mr. Tom Clarke : The Minister has been asked to make an apology on behalf of Scottish Ministers, including the Secretary of State for Scotland, who have not even bothered to turn up for the debate. The Secretary of State gave at least two promises--one in his document "Taking Stock" and one in his speech at St. Andrews--that Scotland would achieve better representation. Does the Minister accept that geography has a great deal to do with the matter and that the Highlands and Islands seat is bigger than Belgium? Are we to believe that the Government considered merely figures and not communities, geography or proper representation for Scotland?

Mr. Lloyd : According to the rules that we have, the seat would not go to the highlands and islands. The position is different, particularly because Opposition Members have pleaded that we should stick absolutely and completely to the traditional Boundary Commission practices and rules. Highlands and Islands is, indeed, large territorially, but it has a small population. The major determining factor which Boundary Commissions are supposed to take into account is population. That is the reason for the discrepancy. The reason is not whether or not Scotland has an extra seat. Even if it was right--I do not accept that it is--to distribute the seats in such a way as to give Scotland more than the United Kingdom arithmetic can justify, I do not believe that it would help in resolving anxieties, which I understand, caused by the sheer geographical spread of the

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Highlands and Islands constituency or the difficulties created for the mother-in-law of the hon. Member for Moray. As the hon. Lady said, her mother-in-law is as capable of managing that seat as any member, but its size gives her added difficulties.

The hon. Lady asked whether we would consider constituencies in Scotland and the rest of the country on a geographical basis. I have some sympathy with that, but I do not know how it can be done. I know that it cannot be done under the present rules. During last year's debates on the parliamentary Boundary Commission changes, I said that after this coming review and the consequent review of European boundaries, we should need to reconsider the rules under which commissions work. By that I did not mean just the Government ; I meant that there would be consultation with other parties. As I said before, we can do that only when we come to consider the rules under which boundaries are reviewed. It cannot be done properly and fairly now. Perhaps we could have given an extra seat to Scotland, but it would not have resolved the real problem of the geographical size of that constituency in particular.

Mr. Rowe : May I seek reassurance on one other point? Several of my constituents in Kent are anxious because it appears that with the new seats we are likely to be pushed out of Kent and to include part of Sussex. That appears to have a knock-on effect on domestic parliamentary boundaries. Can my hon. Friend assure us that the two are not connected in that way?

Mr. Lloyd : There is not a knock-on effect to domestic parliamentary constituency boundaries. Euro-constituencies must be made from the building blocks of domestic parliamentary constituencies. That is why the law requires that after a review of domestic parliamentary boundaries there must be a consequent review of Euro-boundaries to make sure that the latter are still made up of the building blocks of the ordinary parliamentary constituencies. The call for an extra seat for Scotland on the basis of the highlands and islands difficulty came particularly unconvincingly from Liberal Democrats, especially the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan). He and his party want the extra six Members to be elected on the additional list basis. He lambasted the Government for not seizing an opportunity to move to proportional representation. If we did so, that would leave constituency boundaries, not merely in Scotland but everywhere else, exactly as they are at present.

Mr. Maclennan : It is uncharacteristic of the Minister, but obviously he did not listen to me. I made it plain that the list would operate in Scotland, Wales and England, if that was how the distribution had to be made.

Mr. Lloyd : If that were so for the additional seats, it would leave the existing directly elected constituency boundaries as they are, in which case the hon. Gentleman would not reduce the size of the Highlands and Islands constituency. That is my point to him. The Government have always made it clear that they see in proportional representation of any variety no improvement on our traditional, well-tried system of first past the post and strong, clear constituency links for every elected Member.

Mr. Bernard Jenkin (Colchester, North) : Will my hon. Friend give way?

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Mr. Lloyd : I will give way later.

Even if we thought otherwise, which we do not, proceeding to elect six additional Members on the list basis is not, as the Liberal Democrat party thinks, a quick and easily organised alternative. It would require much debate. What kind of list? Would it cover the whole of the United Kingdom or each constituent country, as the nationalists have repeatedly said they would like to see? It is difficult to have additional seats and directly elected constituencies in the small constituent countries of the United Kingdom. Who would draw up the list? As the Home Secretary remarked in his opening speech, if we embark on that route we shall still be arguing the issue on the day the elections are due to be held. I must bypass the De Gucht report and answer the point raised by the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair). As I indicated from a sedentary position during the debate, I can give him the four assurances that he asked for. The Opposition will be consulted on the members of the committees. The Boundary Commission members will be appointed, wherever possible, if they are willing and have time to do so. Two have already said that they believe they will have time. The secretariat will be the same, although I cannot say whether it will be temporarily expanded.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether it would be the Boundary Commission in all but name. Yes, that is our objective as far as it is possible in the time. However, it cannot be exactly so and a major issue in this debate has been how far consultation and local inquiries can be held. I do not believe that it is possible to have local inquiries in the traditional manner. The hon. Gentleman said that that was simply assertion and believes that we can. I can only counter his assertion with another, and the right hon. Member for Strangford asked me to spell it out.

The timetable is extremely tight. Political parties and administrators need to know where the new boundaries are to be drawn not later than the end of November. Representatives of the political parties are likely to want discussion meetings with the committees before they start work. None the less, publication of provisional recommendations at the beginning of August remains a possible, though optimistic, target. So far, the timetables of the hon. Member for Sedgefield and the Home Secretary are similar. However, there would be strong criticism if insufficient time were allowed for representation. Many people will be away on holiday in August and it will be difficult for local councils to meet to discuss proposals. In the past, political parties strongly urged the Boundary Commission not to publish proposals in August. That all points to a closing date no earlier than mid September.

The preparation and holding of public inquiries are long processes. Representations must be analysed and briefs prepared for the person presiding over the inquiry. As the hon. Member for Sedgefield said, it could reasonably be expected that up to 10 inquiries may be needed. In preparing his report to the relevant committee, the inquiry chairman would need a verbatim transcript of the proceedings. Reports take some weeks to prepare and submit. The committees would then need to consider the reports and representations, reach final decisions and prepare their own reports. We believe that, at best, that will take six or seven weeks longer than the hon. Gentleman suggested.

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As I said to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North, if the hon. Member for Sedgefield wishes to appoint a representative, the Home Secretary will want to appoint an expert to sit down and go through the timetable. We believe that our timetable is realistic and that the timetable of the hon. Member for Sedgefield is unrealistic, but we shall look at it open mindedly because we want as much opportunity for review and representation as possible, as does the hon. Gentleman. If we are shown to be wrong we shall adopt an alternative procedure. Although I do not think that that will be the case, we should be happy to talk it through. [Interruption.] If it is feasible, there can be public inquiries. We do not want to rule them out. In 1978-79 the Labour Government, although they had twice as long to prepare for the European elections, had to rule out local inquiries, just as we are doing now.

The Bill is simple and fair. It provides the United Kingdom with six extra seats that are distributed as fairly as possible. It is fair to all parts of the United Kingdom and what Opposition Members suggest would certainly be unfair to England.

Question put :--

The House divided : Ayes 254, Noes 300.

Division No. 312] [10 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Ashton, Joe

Austin-Walker, John

Barnes, Harry

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, Andrew F.

Benton, Joe

Bermingham, Gerald

Berry, Dr. Roger

Betts, Clive

Blair, Tony

Blunkett, David

Boateng, Paul

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Burden, Richard

Byers, Stephen

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Cann, Jamie

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clapham, Michael

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Coffey, Ann

Cohen, Harry

Connarty, Michael

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbett, Robin

Corbyn, Jeremy

Corston, Ms Jean

Cousins, Jim

Cryer, Bob

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davidson, Ian

Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Denham, John

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Donohoe, Brian H.

Dowd, Jim

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eastham, Ken

Enright, Derek

Etherington, Bill

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret

Fatchett, Derek

Faulds, Andrew

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fisher, Mark

Flynn, Paul

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Foster, Don (Bath)

Foulkes, George

Fraser, John

Fyfe, Maria

Galbraith, Sam

Galloway, George

Gapes, Mike

Garrett, John

George, Bruce

Gerrard, Neil

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Godman, Dr Norman A.

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