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some signs of wishing to deal directly with questions from hon. Members and to tell us something. During the previous debate, we heard nothing from the Government that gave us increased confidence in the ability of British Coal to find a larger market for coal for any of the 12 pits or any of the pits that are not on the list but which communities feel will soon be the subject of the retrenchment approach of British Coal.Will there be a secure future for Ellington? Will that future rest in the aluminium industry, which already has many problems? That cannot be a safe future for Ellington. We want the Alcan contract to remain at Ellington. It is an extremely efficient method of operation--the delivery of coal direct from one plant to another. In the aluminium industry, coal must compete with hydro-electric power and the arrival of aluminium from eastern Europe, where no genuine costing has taken place. The dumping of aluminium has resulted from the disruption of the situation in eastern Europe.
The market of electricity generation must be maintained if Ellington is to have a genuine future. Alongside the future of Ellington, we have a massive expansion of opencast. The impact of that on the subsidy element is not entirely clear. I have always taken the view that we must maintain enough opencast sites in our area, especially in Northumberland, to give some future to an industry that provides many jobs. However, that should not be done at the expense of massive despoliation of the environment in Northumberland or huge expansion of the areas involved. We are at that point now.
British Coal is arguing that it must have an opencast site outside the village of Ellington in which to put the waste from Ellington colliery, which it currently puts into the sea. That is a fairly unconvincing bargain to offer a community whose pit does not have a guaranteed or secure future. Indeed, there are considerable doubts in the area about whether the pit will last long enough for the restrictions on the dumping of coal in the sea ever to necessitate putting the coal in an opencast site for which permission is granted on those grounds. Therefore, those grounds will not weigh heavily. I hope that they will not weigh with the Minister when he eventually considers the application.
The future of all the coal pits--not simply the 12 pits that sparked the row--depends on a market that is rigged against the coal industry and was so rigged by the Government. They cannot escape the blame for that. They cannot refer to market conditions as though those conditions were simply handed to them. There are genuine market forces at work. However, the way in which those forces operate is predetermined to a significant extent by the decisions made by the Government when they privatised the electricity industry--the way in which they structured the regional electricity companies and protected nuclear power, and look like continuing to do so. Nothing that the Government have said, and they have said so little, has carried the debate forward. I am extremely worried about the future of the coal industry in my constituency. I share the concern of Opposition Members who have already expressed their anger about what has happened to the pits in their constituencies.
I should mention the Minister's earlier touching reference to my party's election manifesto. He referred to
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one of our apparent aspirations to generate 45 per cent. of electricity from wind power. We had no such aspiration. I have looked up the text of that manifesto and we are guilty, I admit to it, of giving excessive credence to Government figures. The relevant passage notes :"Government estimates show that up to 45 per cent. of electricity demand could be met from wind power."
I do not believe that we should ever place such confidence in Government figures and the Minister will note that we went to argue that such a target could not be met.
Mr. Simon Burns (Chelmsford) : Why put it in the manifesto then?
Mr. Beith : We noted that we might produce 20 per cent. of our energy from all the renewable sources, including wind and wave power. [Laughter.] The Minister and his colleagues seem to think that that is funny, but they must consider problems such as emission targets, pollution and resource depletion and make some genuine attempt to address them.
Mr. Martin O'Neill (Clackmannan) : I have a copy of "The Times Guide to the House of Commons April 1992", which contains a copy of the Liberal manifesto. Its section on energy does not bear much relation to what the right hon. Gentleman quoted ; it is ambiguous, confusing and very Liberal in its approach. Under the heading, "The environmental balance sheet" and the sub-heading, "Renewable energy generation", it states :
"45 per cent. of electricity demand could be met from wind power." Under the subsequent heading of "Positives"--whatever they are--it notes :
"Britain has a massive advantage in natural resources that give it the potential to be at the forefront of renewable energy generation. Government estimates show that up to 45 per cent. of electricity demand could be met from wind power."
That potential is referred to twice on page 345 of that guide. The right hon. Gentleman should have checked it. Admittedly, the Liberals' policies are invariably confused, but, in this case, they are not only confused but confusing to the people who read that manifesto.
Mr. Beith : That possibility may have been referred to twice in that guide, but it appeared just once in the original manifesto. It is recorded as a quotation from the Government. To place undue credence on any Government figures is never a terribly good idea and that is why we argued for no more than a 20 per cent. contribution to energy supplies from all renewables.
The Government are prepared to bolster artificially the position of nuclear power and I cannot understand how they can so readily dismiss the aspiration to increase the proportion of our energy supplies derived from renewables. If they and the Labour party think that that option is funny and the wrong way to go, they have a lot to learn about the desired energy policy.
We are discussing whether the subsidy will ensure that coal has a better and fairer opportunity to win markets in the next few years. I do not believe that the subsidy will achieve that aim.
11.7 pm
Mr. Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent, Central) : It is interesting that the Minister made little attempt to claim very much for the motion, but perhaps that is scarcely surprising since the Government are throwing away billions of pounds worth of assets in coal reserves. The
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money on offer is very small in comparison to them and in relation to the £1.3 billion a year that is given in subsidy to the nuclear industry.The subsidy on offer is largely illusory, since the Minister knows that, given the present structure of the energy market, the chances of that subsidy being called upon is also non-existent. The idea is also illusory, because we have learnt from what the Minister has already said in answer to interventions that the mechanisms of the subsidy are largely illusory. Although the Minister described those mechanisms, he admitted that the one time that British Coal has attempted to negotiate with National Power, the subsidy and the mechanisms were not in operation. The Minister is offering British Coal a subsidy, but it will not know in advance what it will be worth. It will therefore be unable to offer anything of value to the person with whom it is negotiating.
The Minister probably knows that practical jokers, or confidence tricksters, perform a trick involving a pound note on a piece of elastic or string. The pound note is put in one's hand, but as one's hand closes, it is whipped away. I suspect that this subsidy is based on very much the same principle. The appearance is of a sum of money being provided, but it is very well attached to a piece of elastic, the other end of which is being held by the Minister. I doubt whether any of the money will ever be called down.
The Minister has said how small the market is and has told us that it will be impossible for British Coal to create new markets. He knows very well that if new markets are not created, this assistance will not be called upon. When the illusion--I will not call it a confidence trick--is understood by the British people, who were outraged last October by the Government's action, there will be equal anger. The Government ought to behave better towards the coal industry. The reason for people's concern last October was their recognition of the debt that the country owes to the industry. This is a strange way to repay that debt.
If the Minister had any sense of history, he would realise that the only reason for our being a manufacturing nation, the only reason for our having been a great industrial, economic and political power for the past 200 years, is that there was an industrial revolution based on coal. My city, Stoke-on-Trent, owes its very existence to the coal seam on which it is based. The Government owe the industry better treatment. In their outrage last October, the British people, even if they did not understand the full complexities of the energy market, sensed that something was wrong. Nothing in the provision with which we are dealing tonight will suggest to them that the situation is being put right. This subsidy will change nothing.
It is clear that the Government are in a very curious and confused position. During today's debate on the closure of mines, the Secretary of State and the Minister for Energy repeatedly claimed that they could not interfere with the energy market, that pure market forces would determine everything. Despite that, the Minister is offering a subsidy. He is intervening, albeit in a thoroughly small and inadequate way, by providing a sweetener for any sales that British Coal may be able to secure. This demonstrates that the Government are able to intervene in the market ; indeed, it is necessary that they do so. Thus, their earlier argument--that it is impossible to intervene in the energy market, as it is a pure market- -is torpedoed.
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This minimal assistance for the industry does not accord with the professed concern of the Secretary of State for Employment for the coal industry and all those working in it. It may be claimed that that concern is reflected to some extent in this very small subsidy. It is certainly not reflected in the way in which British Coal is treating miners who are made redundant. The Minister will know that workers in the coal industry can qualify at the age of 55 for early retirement.Trentham, which is in my constituency, closed on 4 June. Miners who reached early retirement age two or three weeks later have been denied early retirement procedures. That is in marked contrast to the way in which British Steel operated when it closed Shelton Bar and other works 10 years ago. However harsh the conditions of those closures were, British Steel was at least sympathetic towards people who had spent their entire working lives in the industry and were on the brink of achieving early retirement.
The Minister is raising his eyebrows in apparent surprise. Let him ask Mr. Neil Clarke about the procedures for miners who are within days or weeks of achieving early retirement. Those in my constituency are told that they will have to wait a further seven years. For the past few years, miners have based their early retirement on retiring at the age of 55. In one case, a person was denied early retirement because of a matter of only two weeks. That is a disgraceful way to treat people who have given their whole lives to the industry. If the Minister wants his view that he cares about those who work in the industry to be credible, I hope that he will take that up with Mr. Neil Clarke and see what can be done.
Similarly, I hope that the Minister will take up the question of the effect of so-called "voluntary redundancy" on miners' home security. I hope that he now understands that, because of his Department's requirement, British Coal has forced those redundancies through as voluntary redundancies, when he and the rest of the world know perfectly well that they are compulsory. Because they are nominated as voluntary redundancies, the insurance clauses in miners' mortgage agreements will not operate. All insurance clauses on mortgage policies are made null and void if somebody volunteers for redundancy.
So miners have not only lost their jobs ; if they fall behind with their mortgage payments, they have no insurance protection and stand to lose their homes as well within a few weeks or months. Is that what the Minister wants for people who have given their whole lives to the industry? He could do something about the behaviour of British Coal towards early retirement and pensions, and miners' home security. I urge him to do both.
Will the Minister talk to the Department of Social Security and ensure that the Government make a ruling on how regulation 51(7) of the Income Support (General) Regulations 1987 operates? I hope that he understands that, under those regulations, if the Benefits Agency believes that somebody receiving a lump sum has deliberately reduced that lump sum with intent to claim benefit, it is entitled not to pay income support.
On being made redundant from Trentham, a single parent constituent of mine spent his redundancy money on reducing his large mortgage because the job that he managed to find was low-paid. As a responsible parent, he knew that he could not sustain the mortgage that he had undertaken when he was a miner, so he used his redundancy payment to pay off the mortgage. When he
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was made redundant a second time a few weeks later, the Benefits Agency refused to pay him income support on the basis that he had disposed of his capital. He had used his redundancy payment responsibly and found another job, as the Government wanted him to do, but when he was made redundant again it was implied that he had tried to con the system and therefore would not be allowed income support. That cannot be how those regulations are intended to be applied. In that instance, the case was overturned on appeal and the man found that he was entitled to income support.Nevertheless, if the Minister wants to act constructively he should look at the matter and, together with the Department of Social Security, issue guidelines so that miners in such a position are not denied income support when they have acted perfectly honourably. He could and should look at those important points, as those measures would take some of the pain and anxiety away from our constituents, whom the Government have thrown into that appalling position. The Minister has not made many claims for the subsidy, which is at least something. He should, however, look at those other points, because how the Government treat the men who have worked all their lives in that industry and the resources which they make available to them are every bit as important as subsidies to the price of coal. I hope that he will bear that in mind.
11.19 pm
Mr. Peter Hardy (Wentworth) : In his wind-up speech in the earlier debate, the Minister accused the Labour party of being the captive of history. I am not sure whether the word "captive" is correct, but we are entirely justified in paying careful attention to history. Those of us who represent mining districts have a considerable and relevant history to study.
Reference has been made to the links between some constituencies and the mining industry. The link is as deep in my constituency as in most others. Pits were closed in the 18th century and in the 19th century. Between 1814 and 1939, we lost four pits, we lost one in the early 1970s, one in the late 1970s and four in the 1980s. At no time in the past when a colliery closed--be it long ago or more recently--has it been against such a grim, severe and declining economic background as that of Britain today. It is time that the Government understood that the fundamental cause of Britain's economic weakness is the balance of payments deficit, which is enormous and is likely to grow considerably as a result of the present decisions being made about the coal industry.
I realise that many of my hon. Friends regard the subsidy as little better than a myth, but I am more suspicious than many of my hon. Friends. I see the subsidy as part of a three-pronged approach to privatisation. It was interesting that, at one point in his speech, the Minister appeared to suggest--I hope that I am not misinterpreting his view--that, at some time, the Government could return for a little more. That suggestion aggravated my suspicions about a three-pronged approach.
We have watched the Government privatise the energy resources of Britain, and arrange various sweetners to assist in that privatisation. We have seen unnecessary
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increases in the price of electricity. The Government were careless about the bad effect of those increases on heavy energy users in industry. The prices were increased in advance of privatisation to make it more attractive.Mr. Eggar indicated dissent.
Mr. Hardy : It is no good the Minister for Energy shaking his head, as the record is clear--the electricity price rose enormously and excessively before privatisation so that the sales could proceed, and the same happened with gas. The Government did not merely sell it for less than it was worth : they sold it against a background of excessive profits--and they could not care less about the effect on manufacturing industry or the poorer domestic consumer.
I am suspicious. The Minister now has the capacity to dangle sweeteners, if they are needed, to assist the Government's friends. They are not our friends--the Conservative party, not the Labour party, will receive the little donations in gratitude.
Mr. Kevin Hughes (Doncaster, North) : Some of them are not so little.
Mr. Hardy : My hon. Friend is right. I do not think that the Conservative party will receive the same sums for the purchase of a pit as it does from overseas residents seeking to encourage the Government to maintain tax breaks. The subsidy provision exists to encourage privatisation.
The second prong of the Government's approach to privatisation involves pension prospects. The Government do not seem to understand that pensions are part of a worker's reward. I do not know how anyone can find the moral justification to grab workers' earnings in the form of pension funds. I think that the Government may find themselves in deep water over that issue.
The third prong, to which the Minister referred in passing, concerns me deeply. On 29 March I intervened in a speech of the Secretary of State and was pleased with his answer, because it was unequivocal. He said that nothing would be done
"to prejudice safety standards in the mines."--[ Official Report, 29 March 1993 ; Vol. 222, c. 31.]
Since that debate in March, which does not seem long ago, British Coal can claim that productivity has increased by 22 per cent. If that astonishing improvement, which has not been matched in any other industry at any time since the second world war, can be achieved in the coal industry, why do the Government wish to make the dramatic changes in safety regulation?
Again, I am suspicious. The Secretary of State gave the House an unequivocal assurance, as he described it--but shortly afterwards, the Health and Safety Executive took to the Department of Employment its proposals for dramatic changes in the mining industry's safety regime. I can think of no other reason for that, other than for it to join the subsidy and the attraction to the pension funds of the greedy eyes of those the Government would like to see own the coal industry rather than the community.
I said that the subsidy was a myth. I am extremely sensitive to electricity prices. We have in my constituency perhaps the finest engineering steel industry in Europe, and certainly in Britain. My hon. Friends who represent the Rotherham area are well aware of its enormous achievements and of the records that it holds and repeatedly breaks. They know also of the problems that
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confront that industry because electricity prices are far higher than they need be--and would be, were coal to account for a larger share of the generation market.If there are to be any subsidies, they should subsidise the privatisation of the coal industry but the maintenance of adequate levels of industrial activity in this country.
I do believe that this is not a myth, but something more perverted--part of a three-pronged preparation for privatisation. It is part of the record and prospectus of a Government who have created the decline in our recovery that made our nation plunge down into the poverty league, so that, before long, Spain, Portugal and Greece will pass us in the EC's economic league, in the same way that Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands and Luxembourg have done in the last 10 years. For as long as such policies are pursued, that decline will be unavoidable.
That decline is due to the short-sighted calculations of a Government who do not seem interested in the welfare of the economy--and because of that, I do not believe that the Government are sufficiently interested either in the safety of people who work below ground.
If the Minister has time to reply, I hope that he will tell the House where we stand in relation to pit safety. Is safety to be no greater a reality than the subsidy? May we expect that the promise given to the House by the Secretary of State--who, unfortunately, cannot be with us today--on 29 March will be kept? Are we to see the disappearance of the role of the colliery deputy, who will no longer have a statutory power to secure safety in the mine? Will we once again see the Government sacrificing the interests of the nation and of the individual to the rather sordid sort of people with whom the Government seemed to have been concerned over the past 10 years? 11.27 pm
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke- on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) referred to redundancy payments made to miners and to others that ran foul of social security laws in respect of mortgage repayments, and so on. I hope that the Minister will pass on that information. The Department in question ought to make a statement, to ensure that people do not have to appeal because of variations throughout the country.
Some local Department of Social Security offices are saying one thing, and some are saying another. A fortnight ago, I obtained about £1,200 in back money for one of my constituents--a miner who was made redundant. If that is happening on a wide and varied scale throughout the country, it is time that the regulations were made firm, to end the situation whereby people in certain parts of Derbyshire will be paid, whereas people in certain parts of Staffordshire and Yorkshire will not. I hope that that will be dealt with.
The debate is about the subsidy and about the Government buying time after their announcement to save 12 pits. We knew that that was a confidence trick and, as many of us also knew at the time, the subsidy would not add up to a row of beans. It was a Portillo subsidy, and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury was quite happy about it. When it was discussed with the Secretary of State, it was probably said, "Look here, we will tell the House in this great White Paper debate that there will be a subsidy, but don't bother about it a great deal. You will be quite happy with it, Mr. Portillo, because at the end of the day not a great deal of money will be spent, if any at all."
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We thought that that would happen. The Tories were bought off, but more importantly, the people outside were disgusted at this confidence trick carried through by the Government. This short debate about the subsidy will put on record over and over again that we do not expect a great deal to be paid. It is a pity that the Minister did not quite finish what he was telling me about how the mechanism would work. I was becoming intrigued, but then he recovered himself and said something about it being a commercial matter between British Coal and somebody else. For a time, I thought that he would reveal a little more.I would like a subsidy for mining similar to the set-aside scheme for farmers. Coal is a great national asset. It would be sensible to say that, as great tracts of land are set aside at £100 an acre--I think that the royal family made about £250,000 out of the scheme--such a scheme should operate for mining. It is said that farming is beset by the problems and elements of mother nature and cannot compete in the same way as someone working in a factory or a shed. Therefore, the argument goes, a subsidy must be paid because bad weather could result in crops not growing.
Does not the same argument apply to the pits? Miners have to deal with mother nature underground, so there should be a set-aside subsidy for mining. That would mean that, when a colliery struck a bad seam, the miners could be told, "Set it aside. We will set aside money so that the pit can ignore the bad seam." The Minister spoke about some of the 12 pits and said that they are not making money. No pit in Britain makes money in the first half of the financial year, because that is when nearly all the holidays are taken. But the second half of the financial year, when there is only one holiday, Christmas, often makes up for the massive loss in the first six months.
Mr. William Cash (Stafford) : The hon. Gentleman makes a great deal of the comparison between pits and agriculture. We are being ripped off by the European Community because the Germansis a nuclear levy, but irrespective of that, our mining industry is being ripped off. I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that we are being ripped off right across the system, because Britain is being sold down the line in respect of agriculture, the single market and the coal industry. I want the European Community to work, but not on the terms being described at the moment.
Mr. Skinner : For a short period, I thought that the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) and I were on the same playing field. However, he then said that he wanted the European Community to work. I do not. I think that it has been an unmitigated disaster, and I want it to fail. However, I have always accepted that it is not as easy to grow food in a country such as Britain as it is to grow food in the Mediterranean countries and in California. Therefore, I have always accepted the idea of having subsidies or, better still, deficiency payments, so that we do not have to import too much food. My worry is that the money has gone into the wrong pockets. I would sooner see the money in the farmworkers' pockets than in the pockets of the rich business farmers. I
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accept the point made by the hon. Member for Stafford about £20 for every family going into the common agricultural policy. I have no doubt that thousands of miners are saying, "If there can be that kind of subsidy for the CAP, we should have some sort of subsidy for the coal industry, because it also has to battle against the elements." Let us not kid ourselves. "Subsidy" is not a dirty word. We have to have subsidies to run a highly technological society. One cannot run a school without subsidies, although I know that the Government are trying. However, subsidies are paid even to opted-out schools, so that they have more money than schools that are still under local education authorities. That is true of almost all aspects of our lives. There could not be a royal family without subsidy. I am in favour of the demise of the royal family, but I understand how they manage to live in the lap of luxury.We are always hearing about Nissan coming to Britain. Of course Nissan came to Britain. The Government said, "Here is £300 million to come to build a factory in Sunderland." They said to Toyota, "You can have a bit more if you come to Derby." Every local authority in the area said, "We will give you some more advantages as well." That is a subsidy. There are subsidies for most things in life.
We have always argued that there is a way in which to deal with the coal industry. It should not be dealt with on the basis of a phoney subsidy to buy time to con the British people. The subsidy should be based on a pit's work from year to year or over a five-year period. The period must be five years to deal with cycles within a pit, as it goes through bad work and good work. Proper payments are needed. We have always argued that we need a big coal industry, so that the strong can help the weak and vice versa, in good times and bad. The only thing that made me smile was the French interconnector subsidy. That subsidy goes from the Government, through the nuclear levy, and we then pay the French to send us electricity that competes with our electricity. The French get a big sum out of us. It is a joke that the French are able to send us electricity for which we have paid a massive price in the process.
I am still trying to find out whether there is anything in the following idea. As the Government work on the principle that they help people who help the Tory party with donations, especially foreigners, I wonder whether any of the French subsidy money has an Asil Nadir lurking among it. That has not been discovered yet. I just throw the idea in. Is there somebody who has sent the Government some money?
The French people say, "We have a really good score going here with the British Government. They are a bit thick and they are run by a wimp, but we are actually selling them electricity and they are paying us to send it." There is bound to be a hidden agenda, with somebody saying, "We must slip them a few quid," or, to use the parlance of Terry Venables, "bung them a bit." It is odd that we are getting electricity while the French are laughing.
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I suggest to the hon. Member for Stafford, who follows these matters very carefully, "Check that out." He is a man for detail on French subsidies. It is just possible that he might discover something much more serious.I have seen figures of £1.2 billion and £1.3 billion for the subsidy to the nuclear power industry. That subsidy enables it to capture 22 or 23 per cent. of the market. It is a subsidy. The Government can argue that the money is to do with decommissioning, but anyone who knows anything about the industry knows that it is a subsidy. The only difference between the subsidies to which I have just referred and the one that we are discussing tonight is that the one that we are discussing tonight is a fairy-tale subsidy--it is about fantasy land--whereas the others are real.
Mr. Skinner : Cash in hand, as the right hon. Gentleman says. The sad thing is that a great national asset is going down the pan. We are not talking about rebuilding a factory, which can be done in a short space of time. As you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will know, having been born and bred in a mining community--like many hon. Members present tonight--when pits have gone, they have gone. Once the ground is made unstable by opencasting, there is nothing that can be done. Suppose that, in 25 years' time, an enlightened Government come along and say, "All the gas has gone and all the oil has gone. We ought to get back to coal, because we don't have enough windmills." Suppose that they have made an effort but there are still not enough--that they have not got up to 5 per cent., never mind 45 per cent., even though the commitment has appeared in 15 manifestos. They will have to turn back to coal. The trouble is that, once opencasting has taken place, they will not be able to do that.
My guess is that that is part of the conspiracy referred to earlier in the debate. British Coal has got off pretty lightly in this argument. I am not averse to attacking the Government every day of the week--
Mrs. Alice Mahon (Halifax) : You do.
Mr. Skinner : And I do. But British Coal is part of the conspiracy. It wants a small privatised industry ; make no mistake about it. It is in this business ; it wants pits such as that referred to by the hon. Member for Stafford--and all the others to which my hon. Friends, referred--shut. It wants a tiny little group of pits so that it can get the 30 million tonnes at the power stations next year. It does not want much else and, what is more, it does not want any competition.
The best way of achieving that end is to ensure that, before the year is out, the pits are closed. British Coal will then have a dozen or 15--the figure could even be as high as 20, although it will probably diminish if the Government stay in power much longer--of the best pits left. It will have a captive market, just like the gas market.
It will make a bomb and Neil Clarke will be running it. That is why I challenged him in July 1992 when I went to Hobart house with my hon. Friends from the mining group. I asked every member of the board, "Will you have anything to do with privatisation?" Ken Moses jumped up and said, "Don't try and talk to me, Skinner. I won't touch it with a bargepole." Neil Clarke said, "Don't anyone else
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answer that question," and took his members- -the board--out of the room. He did not want to let the cat out of the bag.British Coal wants that small industry so that it can make profits
Mr. Cash : Does the hon. gentleman accept that rumours are circulating round the coal industry at the moment to the effect that, in respect of the prospectus--bearing in mind that the applications for licences have to be submitted by 16 July--there are two sets of figures? The amount of money that is expected to be forthcoming for the top end--for management--is one figure, but there is also a real figure at the bottom line, which they will accept.
In other words, there is a serious question mark over the figures. The Minister has an obligation to tell us whether there are two sets of figures for those who want to acquire those mines. If the mines are to be privatised, some people could get in on the inside track, and it could be the management of the coal industry.
Mr. Skinner : That is another question that the Minister must answer. I hope that the Minister has heard quite clearly that there is a Cash rumour going round that there are two sets of figures. Let me buy that theory for a moment or two, and ask the Minister to reply.
The other sad thing is that we are talking about men's and women's lives. We are talking about communities that have been smashed asunder. There have been closures throughout my time as a Member of Parliament, and there were closures while I worked in the pits. I saw the pit close in which my father worked and in which I worked. I saw all that, so I do not want to hear, "You closed more than we did." In my view, hardly any of the pits should have closed anyway. Parkhouse colliery, where I worked, was shut and there was a lot of coal left. It was opencasted later, which proved the point.
We are talking about miners who will not get any jobs--no voluntary redundancy. Everybody in Lancashire has been told that there are three jobs at Point of Ayr. Everyone in Yorkshire and in the constituency of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) who says, "I do not want to leave the industry," is told that there are three jobs at Point of Ayr. It is like the subsidy--a confidence trick from beginning to end, because not everybody can take those three jobs at Point of Ayr in the north Wales coalfield.
There will be a lot more casualties. The Government might be able to whisk them away on some other scheme, so that they do not show up as unemployed. They will use all the techniques of statistics to say they have not been added to the dole queue, but each hon. Member who represents a mining area knows that we can count them, because we know almost everybody who lives on every street.
The sad thing is that, if we think about it, we come back to another subsidy, because, if 100,000 people lose their jobs in Britain today, it costs £900 million per annum. We are talking about a public sector borrowing requirement of £50 billion. At end end of the day, it is not about us, but about people out there in the communities ; that is why the Minister has an obligation to answer all the questions and to tell us precisely how the subsidy will be paid.
He was on the track once : he was going to tell us. My guess is that, by the end of the financial year, hardly any,
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if any, of it will be paid. I know that one thing is certain : any more of this and a lot more people will be on the dole queue. 11.46 pmMr. Kevin Hughes (Doncaster, North) : The Minister mentioned the subsidies. As other hon. Members have said, the subsidies are bogus ; they are not going to happen. Who has had any money? How many extra bags of coal have the Government lifted a finger to try to sell? Not one. Who will qualify for any of the subsidy? My view is that nobody will qualify because they were never intended to qualify for it. Let me put my cards on the table. I was born and bred in a mining community and I still live in the heart of a mining community. Only the other week, the Minister and I had a debate on the Adjournment about the closure of Thorpe Marsh power station. He knows only too well my concern for the two pits in my constituency that will be affected. I should like to see some subsidy going to those two pits because they have lost a third of their market due to the closure of Thorpe Marsh power station and they are both under market testing. I should like to know, and I have never had a proper answer yet, where on earth those two collieries are to get a third of the market and stay in operation under this so-called market testing?
We are debating a very serious issue. Unfortunately, some Conservative Members seem to think that it is funny and that it is an opportunity to score cheap party political points. It is not. It is a very serious issue. This afternoon, in my opinion, which I know is shared by some Labour Members, the Secretary of State for Employment, who led for the Government, made a disgraceful speech.
Mr. Hughes : It is not rubbish. The Secretary of State spoke rubbish for almost an hour. He tried to make cheap political points for television sound bites. I tell the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) that this is a very serious issue. Hundreds of thousands of people will lose their jobs because of his Government's lack of an energy policy. Pits will be closed, power stations are now closing, railway jobs, engineering jobs and steel workers' jobs will be lost. There is no end to the knock-on effect of closing a pit.
My constituency has an unemployment rate of 14 per cent., which is not funny. Two more pits are likely to close ; Thorpe Marsh power station will close. Some Conservative Member should tell those people in Doncaster where they are to find jobs. There simply are not any around, and communities are being torn apart.
I have watched the hon. Member for Chelmsford all day. He has sat there smirking and pulling stupid faces. He should be out of a job, trying to live on the current rate of unemployment benefit : that would wipe the stupid smirk off his face.
Doncaster has been promised development area status and an enterprise zone. The Minister and I have discussed the matter on many occasions ; as he knows, I would like him to tell the people of Doncaster what their position is likely to be--and, more important, when the Government will put some money back into the community that they have systematically raped since 1979.
I have been passed a note asking me to end my speech, so I will end it shortly. As the Minister knows, Doncaster
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borough council has worked very well with local industry in trying to regenerate Doncaster ; it has worked closely with the people there. It is doing all that it can to regenerate Doncaster and put some new jobs into it, but it cannot do that alone. It needs the subsidies, it needs the enterprise zone and it needs development area status.Mr. Cash : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. At least three Opposition Members have spoken. I voted against the Government on this issue twice--
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