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Column 265
Ward, JohnWardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Tellers for the Ayes :
Mr. Irvine Patnick and
Mr. Robert G. Hughes.
NOES
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Barnes, Harry
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Callaghan, Jim
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cryer, Bob
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Galloway, George
Gordon, Mildred
Harvey, Nick
Hood, Jimmy
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Lewis, Terry
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
Maclennan, Robert
Mahon, Alice
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Rendel, David
Salmond, Alex
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Skinner, Dennis
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Welsh, Andrew
Wray, Jimmy
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. Don Foster and
Mr. Archy Kirkwood.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr. Beith : I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again. I wish to speak to that motion.
The First Deputy Chairman : I am not prepared to accept that motion at this point. We move on to--
Mr. Beith : On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. I wonder whether you could draw my attention to the provision in "Erskine May" that restricts my right to move progress, so that I may be sure that you are not in some way confining that right to those on the Government Front Bench, who seem to be calling the shots.
The First Deputy Chairman : The Standing Order gives the occupant of the Chair discretion, and I am exercising that discretion. We now come to clause 2.
Clause 2
Initial drawing up of the new constituencies
The First Deputy Chairman : The first amendment is amendment No. 15, with which it will be convenient to consider amendments Nos. 18 and 22.
The First Deputy Chairman : In that case, we come to amendment No. 19, with which it will be convenient to consider amendments Nos. 20 and 26 to 30.
The First Deputy Chairman : We now come to amendment No. 23. The Treasurer to Her Majesty's Household (Mr. Greg Knight) rose --
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. [Interruption.] Order. Will the House settle down?
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Several hon. Members rose --Mr. Beith : On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. [Interruption.]
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. I want to hear the point of order.
Mr. Beith : I put it to you, Mr. Lofthouse, that, given that some 15 seconds ago you argued that you could not use your discretion to accept from me a motion to report progress, it would be unacceptable if you now accepted such a motion from the Government Front Bench.
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. Before I deal with that, may I remind the House that amendment No. 23 is an Opposition amendment? Is it not moved?
Several hon. Members rose--
The First Deputy Chairman : Order.
Several hon. Members rose--
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. Hold it. I am the Chairman running this show at present. Hold it.
Let me clarify this matter. Amendment No. 23 stood in the name of the official Opposition. Has it been moved?
Mr. Greg Knight : On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. Before that amendment was reached, I sought to catch your eye.
I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
The First Deputy Chairman : The question is, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
Several have the opportunity to debate it.
Mr. Beith : On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. Before we come to the motion--
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. The motion is that I report progress. As many of that opinion say "Aye"
Mr. Beith rose--
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to speak on the motion?
Mr. Beith : I wish to oppose the motion, because I do not understand the situation. I moved a motion to report progress about a minute or so ago. At that point, you said that, in your discretion, you did not think that it was reasonable to take such a motion at that stage. A matter of seconds later, the Government Whip, the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Knight), sought to move an identical motion, despite my having shown my concern by way of a point of order.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster) : On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. I point out that, since the right hon. Gentleman moved the motion, a number of clauses have been passed, mainly on the nod.
The First Deputy Chairman : Order.
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Mr. William Powell (Corby) : On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. Is it not the case that you put the motion that we report progress? There was a voice vote and the Ayes shouted, "Aye" and the Noes shouted, "No."
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. The Chair had not finished collecting the voices.
Mr. Beith : The hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman) seems to be unaware of what happened in those few seconds : no clauses were passed, no amendments were passed, no amendments were withdrawn and no amendments were moved. No amendments were before the Committee during that period.
That further underlines my point that, in the space of seconds after my moving a motion to report progress, nothing happened at all. Nothing happened to change the circumstances in which you, Mr. Lofthouse, should consider whether to accept a motion to report progress. Yet seconds later, your discretion was somehow influenced by the fact that--I am trying to find the right phrase. The circumstances in which you exercised your discretion seemed to you to have changed, even though procedurally nothing whatever had happened in the intervening period. It seems to us that what is at stake--you may be unaware of what has gone on--is a cosy deal between the Labour party and the Conservative party.
Mr. Graham Riddick (Colne Valley) : On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman to question your judgment, because that is exactly what he is doing? [Interruption.]
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. The House will settle down. I am listening carefully to what the right hon. Member for
Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) is saying. I do not take it that he is questioning my authority at all.
Mr. Beith : I sought in some way to separate my questions of advice about the circumstances in which the Chairman of the Committee can and cannot accept a motion to report progress by dealing with them by way of a point of order.
I am now coming to my speech against the motion. In passing, it would be helpful if Back-Bench Members could be given a clearer understanding of what transpired in the seconds between my moving the motion and the Government Whip moving the motion which turned the situation--obviously the situation was turned, and I do not question that--from one in which it would have been wrong for you to accept the motion to one in which it was right for you to accept it. Obviously, you are well aware of the circumstances and you were being advised in some detail by the Clerk of the Committee as to what the change signified. Undoubtedly, he has given you extensive reasons for it. It would be helpful for the future if at some stage, you could respond by giving us some guidance on that point. However, that is not the substance of what I want to say in opposition to the motion.
Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) : I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree that we should oppose the Government's motion to report progress. It is extremely fortunate that the Labour party did not move its amendment, because virtually no Opposition Members are here to speak to it.
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Did the right hon. Member note the extraordinary exchange of desperate glances between those on the two Front Benches as they panicked and started to realise that their cosy arrangement was starting to go awry? Should our proceedings be dominated by such secret backstage deals between the Tory and Labour parties?Mr. Beith : The hon. Gentleman is right. I, too, saw those exchange of glances. The hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) looked distinctly concerned about what was going on. You know nothing of this, Mr. Lofthouse. I am bringing to your attention matters with which you do not concern yourself.
9.15 pm
The First Deputy Chairman : Order. The right hon. Gentleman can be assured that I know nothing of any deals.
Mr. Beith : I am seeking to underline that point. All the more reason, Mr. Lofthouse, why the House should understand what has happened. The Government have offered us no reason for their decision to move a motion that they would have resisted had my attempt to move the same motion a few seconds earlier been accepted. What a place this is. I sought to move a motion and a minute later, the Government, who would have voted against my motion if it had been put to the vote, moved the exact same motion themselves. I know why they did that.
Mr. Wallace : I was just finishing my meal when I saw various details appear on the Annunciator. Can my right hon. Friend explain how the Chairman could refuse to accept his motion to report progress and, within one minute, accept from the Government the motion to report progress?
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