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Read the Third time, and passed.
1. Mr. Wicks : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he plans to meet the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals to discuss the places available in universities for students leaving school in the current year with appropriate A-level qualifications.
4. Mr. Nigel Griffiths : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what discussions he has had with principals and vice-chancellors about the funding of universities.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Further and Higher Education (Mr. Tim Boswell) : I am sorry that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education is unable to be on the Front Bench for oral questions this afternoon.
We meet the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals from time to time to discuss a range of matters affecting universities. My right hon. Friend and I intend to meet members of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals later this month.
Mr. Wicks : Has the Minister noted the concern of the universities and university authorities that, this year, some well-qualified young people with good A-level grades will not be able to go to university? If that assumption is true--I ask him to confirm or reject it--what message does that give to young people who have worked hard but cannot get into university? What message does it give to young people when we need well- trained and well-educated youngsters?
Mr. Boswell : The first message that I would give young people is to remind them that student numbers, on a full-time equivalent basis, have expanded by 46 per cent. during the past four years. We have more students and a higher proportion of our young people in higher education than ever before. There is some consolidation at present, which is an opportunity for universities to catch breath after rapid expansion and to assert the importance of the full quality of entry standards, to which we attach considerable importance.
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Mr. Nigel Griffiths : Will the Minister confirm that the Higher Education Funding Council is encouraging universities not to take arts students this year, and that it is spending up to £3.5 million encouraging them not to do so, as a kind of academic set-aside? What does that say for the Government's policy towards broad education across a range of subjects?
Is this not the first time in the United Kingdom that a Government have decided to restrict the number of students taking courses, and to channel students away from a broad range of courses--including arts, which are very valuable--into more technical subjects?
Mr. Boswell : It is difficult to please everyone on such subjects, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that the changes in tuition fees earlier this year referred to expansion at the margin beyond the funded number of places. There is no question of prohibiting people from going for arts or humanities subjects--far from it. There is a higher level of participation in those subjects than ever before. If the funding council, which has discretion in the matter, decides to set aside a proportion of money to meet the particular problems of institutions that have expanded so quickly, that is its decision, but I think that it is a prudent one.
Mr. John Marshall : When my hon. Friend meets the principals and vice-chancellors, will he pay a particular tribute to the work of the former polytechnics, such as Middlesex university in my constituency? Will he also draw attention to the fact that, three years ago, those people who are complaining about a shortage of places said that the introduction of student loans would result in a reduction in the numbers of people going to university?
Mr. Boswell : I shall, as ever, do both those things.
Mr. James Hill : When my hon. Friend visits Southampton, he will be able to recall some of the whingeing words of Opposition Members when he sees the college of higher education, La Sainte Unione and the university of Southampton moving ahead with increased numbers of students, and expanding on other sites.
Mr. Boswell : I cannot wait to receive an invitation from my hon. Friend, and I will do my best to respond to it positively as soon as possible.
Mr. Beggs : When the Minister meets the Committee of
Vice-Chancellors and Principals, will he discuss the dramatic increase in student numbers but the absence of corresponding increases in the numbers of lecturers, and lecturers' concern that there could be a slump in standards?
Mr. Boswell : I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. It is certainly the case that numbers of students have expanded faster than the number of lecturers. It varies from place to place and situation to situation and, in some respect, it can be interpreted as productivity.
Mr. Devlin : Will my hon. Friend telephone the Secretary of State this afternoon and wish him a speedy return to good health, and remind him that it is a source of great pride among Conservative Members that this country spends a higher proportion of its gross domestic product on higher education than either Germany or Japan, righting a long-term situation that has needed correction for some time?
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Mr. Boswell : I am sure that the wise remarks of my hon. Friend will help speed up the return to good health of the Secretary of State.
Mr. Rooker : Will the Minister make an early response to the letter that he has received from the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals asking for an extension to the consultation process about the funding of student unions to 1 November following the statement made on 1 July?
The Minister was careful to talk about full-time equivalent places when he answered my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Wicks). Is it right to fund some universities for not filling full-time places and, at the same time, refuse to assist the University of Central England in Birmingham, which is undergoing a vast expansion of part-time places for which there are no taxpayers' contribution to fees or mandatory grants and is funding them free for students who happen to be unemployed? Will he do something about the unfair mismatch of the funding regulations between full -time and part-time university students?
Mr. Boswell : On the hon. Gentleman's first point, I can assure him that the letter we received this morning will be carefully considered, and we will respond to it as soon as possible.
The hon. Gentleman has made clear in the past the views expressed in his second point. We have no proposals for the complete restructuring of the system of academic support at present. We recognise that we have greatly expanded the numbers in higher education, significantly in the new universities, including the ones to which the hon. Gentleman referred, as well as the older universities.
We have also quickly expanded, and are continuing to expand, further education. It is always possible to make suggestions, and they will be considered. We believe that we are delivering the goods in the structure that we have in place.
2. Mr. David Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has to test teachers.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Mr. Eric Forth) : Under the appraisals regulations 1991, all teachers in maintained schools must be subject to an appraisal of their performance by 1995.
Mr. Evans : Does the Minister agree that teachers should be given a simple test to tell us the difference between the Labour party conference, the Trades Union Congress and the National Union of Teachers conference? They are all a lot of hooligans who jump up and down and sulk when they are asked to do any work. Is the Minister aware that a certain hon. Member who has driven us mad over the years has been learning to drive this morning? Would not it be a good idea if that whole lot over there, and some of the teachers had L plates round their necks?
Mr. Forth : I welcome my hon. Friend's sound endorsement of the principle of teacher appraisal. It must be right that teachers undergo a form of appraisal in a properly structured and agreed form, but I am not sure whether that includes the questions that my hon. Friend suggested. Appraisals should be carried out to assure the
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highest quality of teaching, by identifying the full potential of teachers and meeting their training, retraining and support needs. That is the objective.Mr. Steinberg : In response to that predictably silly outburst from the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans), does the Minister agree that the hon. Gentleman would have great difficulty in passing the present standard assessment tasks, and does he also agree that the vast majority of today's teachers are far better skilled than they were in the days when the hon. Gentleman went to school? Now that the opinions of teachers on testing have been vindicated, would the Minister please listen to the teachers during consultation over the new arrangements for primary school teachers?
Mr. Forth : It is certainly the case that properly structured and developed appraisal of teachers must be a major contribution to the quality of our education. It is a matter of some regret that a union that is not totally unconnected with the hon. Gentleman is persisting in opposing the principle of teacher appraisal. I know not why it is doing so--it is for the union to explain--but the rest of us are entitled to be a little suspicious.
Dr. Twinn : I thank my hon. Friend for his comments about teacher appraisal. To enable teachers to pass his appraisal system, will he place further emphasis during teacher training on more practical classroom skills and more subject-based knowledge?
Mr. Forth : My hon. Friend has unerringly put his finger on one of the main thrusts of the Secretary of State's proposals. Of course it must be right that all training of teachers must lay the maximum emphasis on practical classroom skills, so that we do not rely entirely on paper qualifications, important though they may be, but identify the ability of teachers to educate in the classroom. That would emanate from my hon. Friend's sensible suggestions.
Mr. Don Foster : Following the recent revelations about masonic lodges linked to schools in Conservative-controlled Buckinghamshire, does the Minister think that teachers and governors should be tested on their membership of secret societies?
Mr. Forth : Given that we are sitting in a Chamber which probably contains more secret and semi-secret societies than any other, I should be careful before embarking on throwing stones from this glass house.
Mr. Patrick Thompson : In connection with teacher training and assessment, does my hon. Friend agree that schools should be given more time and a greater role in planning and assessing such courses? Does he agree that, in that connection, there should be less stress on educational and sociological theory and more stress, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Dr. Twinn) said, on subject knowledge, classroom skills and, in particular, classroom discipline?
Mr. Forth : Indeed. My hon. Friend shows yet again his enormous experience in this area, to which I defer. It must be right that the balance between theoretical and academic training, which must always have its place, and practical hands-on experience in the classroom is constantly reassessed. I am sure that my hon. Friend will fully support the recommendations and proposals that my right hon.
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Friend the Secretary of State has made recently, which we are now developing very much in the direction suggested by my hon. Friend.Mrs. Ann Taylor : As the Minister has acknowledged that the quality of teachers is important, why are the Government proposing to dilute the professionalism of teachers by the introduction of a semi-trained mums' army? Although we all want mature entrants into teaching, surely it is important that those who are entrusted with our children's education are highly educated and well trained. Why are Ministers gambling with our children's future by more crackpot experiments?
Mr. Forth : I approach this in sorrow rather than anger. It is sad that the hon. Lady should assume that the possession of a paper qualification automatically gives someone skills in classroom teaching and, worse, that she should suggest that people who do not possess academic qualifications, such as graduate skills, are in some way less than good in the classroom.
The reality is that 50 per cent. of teachers are graduates. Is the hon. Lady suggesting that half of all teachers are incompetent and unable to operate successfully in the classroom? Our proposals are that intelligent and mature people with two A-levels and considerable experience with children should surely be the sort of people that we want to encourage to come into our classrooms and deal with our young people--rather than relying entirely on, let us say, a 21-year-old with a narrow degree subject, who the hon. Lady seems to suggest would be better qualified.
3. Mr. Lidington : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what representations he has received about his review of the national curriculum and testing.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mr. Robin Squire) : Sir Ron Dearing, who is conducting the review, has held a series of regional conferences for head teachers and has consulted widely among teachers' organisations and other interested bodies. The Government expect his first report later this month, which will take into account all views expressed.
Mr. Lidington : Does my hon. Friend accept that many responsible and moderate members of the teaching profession, while welcoming the principle of the national curriculum and testing, have expressed legitimate concern about the bureaucracy associated with their implementation? Will he assure the House that not only Sir Ron Dearing but Ministers will listen to constructive criticism and comments from the profession, with a view to improving that state of affairs?
Mr. Squire : I hope that hon. Members of all parties will endorse the wise words of my hon. Friend. Sir Ron Dearing is setting out to tackle the major criticisms that have been expressed by teachers and their unions. I am confident that he will produce a report around which the majority of our teachers can unite to restore order and proper teaching in our schools.
Mr. Hardy : The Minister's noble Friend Baroness Blatch wrote to me the other day in reply to a letter from an able and respected headmaster in my constituency who had submitted a detailed assessment of the Government's
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approach to testing. The noble Lady said that "some" of my constituent's comments were unfounded. Would the Minister ask his noble Friend to publish her comments about those criticisms that she accepted?Mr. Squire : The House will recognise that I have a small problem in trying to answer a question that refers to a letter which I have not seen. The Government will publish their response to the Dearing review as soon as possible after that review, and I would expect that that response will cover the type of issue to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
Mr. Pawsey : Does my hon. Friend accept that the overwhelming majority of the nation's parents believe that the national curriculum and testing are essential for good education? Does he further accept that the majority of Conservative Members welcome the setting up of the Dearing review, look forward to its findings, and hope that those findings will be accepted by the teaching profession and implemented without any further problems?
Mr. Squire : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments, and I echo them. Testing and the national curriculum have raised standards in schools- - [Laughter.] I hear laughter from Opposition Members. That is strange and sad. Testing and the national curriculum have raised standards, and the majority of teachers share the Government's wish that standards continue to be improved.
5. Mr. Trimble : To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he will make a statement on arrangements for EC students pursuing third level courses in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Boswell : United Kingdolm higher education institutions have a strong tradition of internationalism and openness. Their popularity with students from other countries is a welcome indicator of the quality of the education they offer. EC action programmes have provided an added impetus. We fully meet our EC obligations to provide equal rights of access to higher education. Eligible students from other member states studying here may receive an award to cover the cost of their course fees to a specified maximum. Reciprocal rights apply to United Kingdom students studying elsewhere in the EC.
Mr. Trimble : Have the number of students involved, and the expense, increased substantially in the past few years? I understand that the cost of the awards that the Minister mentioned was over £41 million last year, and the cost to the education system may have been somewhat higher. Does the Minister agree that the burden does not fall equally throughout the country but on certain regions? Will steps be taken to compensate those regions for the burden that they have to bear, and will he make other provisions for students from those regions who consequently find it more difficult to get a place?
Mr. Boswell : There is undoubtedly a cost in grants of the order the hon. Gentleman suggests, although it is a gross cost. Against that must be set the large income
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received from overseas countries as a result of overseas students coming here. That amount has been estimated at £1.5 billion. The regional implications depend on the admissions policies of the institutions in question and on the policies of the various funding councils and their equivalent in Northern Ireland. I will draw the hon. Gentleman's remarks to their attention.6. Mr. Tyler : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will review the distinction between local education authority budgets and further education funding ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Boswell : The Government will keep under review the spending needs of local education authorities and of the Further Education Funding Council in the light of their respective statutory responsibilities.
Mr. Tyler : Does the Minister accept that, since 1979, funding per student has been reduced by 22 per cent., according to Library figures? In those circumstances, does he accept that community colleges that are caught between the two stools of further education funding and local authorities' restricted budgets face a budgetary crisis?
Mr. Boswell : I should prefer to study the hon. Gentleman's figures at leisure--and I will do so. I am surprised that he did not acknowledge the huge expansion that we are carrying out in further education, to increase the number of students participating by 25 per cent. over the next three years, and to provide in the coming year £750 per full-time student place in further education.
The hon. Gentleman's point about the interface between further education and local authority provision is made from time to time. This is the first year and, broadly speaking, it has gone well. There have been one or two problems, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no black hole of funding and no reduction in the responsibilities of the parties involved.
Mr. Anthony Coombs : Given the huge planned increase in the numbers in further education during the next few years, is my hon. Friend aware of the great welcome that the principals of further education colleges have given to their greater freedom, from April of this year, to manage their own affairs? Will he ensure that the Educational Assets Board gives further education insitutions enough control over their assets, especially when there are disputes between further education colleges and district councils --there was such a case in Kidderminster in my constituency--to ensure that they can fulfil their responsibilities?
Mr. Boswell : My hon. Friend is right : there has been a positive response in general to the changes that we have made in the structure of the further education sector and to the indpendence that we have given to the various corporations. My hon. Friend will not expect me to comment on cases involving the Educational Assets Board, which is responsible for dividing assets, but I will draw his remarks to its attention.
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7. Mr. Hain : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he has any plans to alter arrangements for the award of discretionary student grants.
Mr. Boswell : My right hon. Friend keeps the administration of student awards under periodic review. Any plans for changes in this field would be announced at the appropriate time.
Mr. Hain : Will the Minister agree to ring-fence funding for discretionary student awards? I and other hon. Members know of many students who cannot study medicine, law, music or other courses that they want to follow. It is crazy for society to deny them the opportunity to acquire those extra skills. I warn the Minister "Don't dare blame local education authorities, after the Government have savaged their budgets in recent year."
Mr. Boswell : I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman says for a moment--but, then, I usually cannot. The fact is that we continue to fund local education authorities for their responsibilities to schools and to all other aspects of education. We will continue so to do.
At the moment, we are looking at a pattern of anecdote, rumour and innuendo about the withdrawal of certain services. For the short term, there is no point in giving local authorities discretion and then trying to take it away from them by fettering that discretion. In the slightly more medium term, and in view of the concern that has been expressed, we have joined with the Gulbenkian and Sir John Cass Foundations, asking them independently and throughly to review the current state of provision. If they have any messages for us, we will consider them carefully and quickly.
Mrs. Peacock : Is my hon. Friend aware that some Labour authorities, such as Kirklees, are refusing to give discretionary grants, so young students who have taken law degrees cannot then go on to law school or to the Council for Legal Education? They have degrees, but they cannot practise. What action can he take to help resolve that?
Mr. Boswell : The nature of discretionary grants is such that LEAs must use their discretion when choosing whether to award them. We continue to fund them-- [Interruption.] --whatever the Opposition may bray. If they want the figures, I can give them to them. If a local authority decides that it is not going to give any awards at all, that would be tantamount to a withdrawal of discretion, and would indeed be a serious matter. If my hon. Friend has evidence to that effect, I shall be pleased to consider it.
Mr. Tony Lloyd : Is not it staggering that the Minister claims that he has the figures, yet he accuses my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) of anecdotes, rumour and innuendo, while his colleagues tell him that discretionary awards have, in effect, been abolished by local authorities? We are talking not simply about Labour authorities but about authorities up and down the country, and the Minister should know that that is the case. He should not come to the House and claim ignorance.
Let me ask the Minister a specific question. What will he do about those authorities? They tell me that cuts in Government money mean that they have to cut
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discretionary grants. No discretionary grants means no opportunity. The responsibility lies with the Minister. What will he do about it?Mr. Boswell : The hon. Gentleman can start by being a bit less arrogant about the Gulbenkian report unless or until he has seen it. What on earth is the point of commissioning the report or paying part of its costs if we are not prepared to consider what it says and take a view in the light of its findings? The hon. Gentleman said that authorities are cutting back. I happen to know--this reflects the change of political control, although the decision was taken before--that my local authority has expanded its provision in discretionary awards. That is an anecdote.
As the hon. Gentleman would like to have the figures, I can tell him that we have increased total expenditure to local authorities by 2.6 per cent. this year for education. That is above the increase in pupil numbers. Taking into account the level of pay settlements, which is required under current policy, that should be sufficient to continue to fund discretionary awards. If local authorities choose not to do that, it is their choice. It is not a decision which we have either imposed on them or encouraged them to take.
8. Mr. French : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what research has been undertaken by his Department into the relationship between examinations and scholarly attainment.
Mr. Robin Squire : None, but I share the widespread view that performance in examinations provides both a measure of current achievement and an indicator of future potential.
Mr. French : Does my hon. Friend find it surprising that the loudest complaints about exams often come from those people who do not have to take them but who profess their interest in educational standards? Does he accept that examinations are not only a measurement, as he just indicated, but provide a useful spur to performance at all ages and are an essential component of any good education system?
Mr. Squire : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his contribution. It is a little strange that all the evidence that we have shows that, far from complaining, school children have enjoyed taking the standard assessment tasks and that school attendance has risen on the days when tests are set. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the spur that tests and examinations provide. They give children a sense of purpose and achievement, which undoubtedly helps to raise standards in our schools.
Mr. Bryan Davies : The Minister has access to voluminous research that establishes that A-levels are a terrible predictor of subsequent degree performance. Why are they used to ration entry to higher education?
Mr. Squire : A study by Smithers and Robinson in 1989 showed a correlation between success in A-levels and degree performance. I am pleased that it also showed that mature students who lack A-level qualifications can perform as well as A-level entrants.
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Mr. Harry Greenway : Does my hon. Friend agree that the conduct and marking of SATs should now be passed to examination boards, which perform professionally in that area? That would take the SATs away from being a burden on teachers to mark and take the setting of those important tests away from the bureaucracy which has been dealing with them so far.
Mr. Squire : I have listened carefully to my hon. Friend's suggestion. He will know that Sir Ron Dearing is addressing that issue within his overall review. It would be wrong for me to anticipate that. I look forward, as I am sure my hon. Friend does, to seeing Sir Ron's comments on that aspect.
Mrs. Ann Taylor : Can the Minister tell the House who in the Government will be responsible for this year's response to the GCSE examination results? Does the Minister recall last year's fiasco when the junior Minister praised the GCSE results and, a few days later, the Secretary of State rubbished them and the efforts of those who had taken the exams? Will the Minister assure the House that Ministers will not undermine the achievement of those who have taken GCSEs this year and that credit will be given where it is due--to the teachers and children who have worked so hard? Will he guarantee that Ministers will not rubbish those results this year?
Mr. Squire : I am advised by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under- Secretary of State for Schools that the hon. Lady has entirely misunderstood what he said. Of course we welcome the improvement in GCSE results which has been seen recently. We look forward very much to those upward trends continuing and we will, ons as well.
Sir Anthony Grant : If such research is carried out, will my hon. Friend look into a complaint that I have received from certain dons in Cambridge--that the award of first-class degrees is made far too easily these days? They tell me that many of the people at other universities who receive firsts are the sort of people who would not have obtained their matriculation in the old days.
Mr. Squire : Despite the fairly wide-ranging responsibilities that I carry, I must tell my hon. Friend that I do not carry that responsibility. However, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Further and Higher Education has heard my hon. Friend's interesting comments and I have a strange feeling that he will reflect on them in the immediate future.
9. Ms Gordon : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what has been the cost of external examiners for the current year's English and technical studies tests.
Mr. Robin Squire : External marking is not a requirement for the 1993 tests in English, technology or other subjects. My right hon. Friend has asked Sir Ron Dearing to consider the merits of this option for the tests for 11 and 14-year-olds in 1994 and subsequently.
Ms Gordon : My question was what has been the cost of the external examiners for this year's tests. Is the Minister
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aware that I have received letters from head teachers in Tower Hamlets saying that they did not have the equipment in place to cover the areas required for testing in technological studies and that they received the details so late that their money had already been committed for the financial year? Instead of wasting money on publicity campaigns and external examiners to force English tests down the throats of unwilling teachers, would not it have been better to spend that money providing the tools for teaching our children? Will the Minister and the Secretary of State now admit that they were wrong about the tests and stop attacking the teachers? Education Ministers come and go, but it is the teachers who are the mainstay of our education system.Mr. Squire : The hon. Lady has justified her reputation as being part of the jurassic tendency in educational terms. In taking but one element of the hon. Lady's comments, the adult literacy and basic skills unit recently reported that one third of students entering further education colleges did not have an adequate command of English to take advantage of their courses. I hope that the hon. Lady will join me in regretting and deploring that fact and in looking forward to supporting the tests which will enable us to improve the standards of pupils of all ages.
Mr. Fabricant : Does my hon. Friend agree that external examination has shown itself to be an excellent way of ensuring that British universities maintain objective testing and standards throughout Europe? Does not he think it quite extraordinary that the Labour party consistently opposes everything that will improve testing, objectivity and a raising of standards in secondary schools?
Mr. Squire : I can only say to my hon. Friend, who is of course absolutely right, that I am not surprised. Time and again, when faced with a choice, the Labour party sides not with the consumer--in this case, the parents or pupils--but always with the producers. In this particular case, the Labour party is on a losing wicket and it will come to see that that is not helping to improve standards in our schools.
10. Mr. John Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what has been the standard spending assessment for education for each of the Merseyside metropolitan authorities for each of the last two years.
Mr. Forth : The figures for 1992-93 were as follows : Knowsley, £79 million ; Liverpool, £215 million ; St. Helens, £73 million ; Sefton, £110 million ; and Wirral, £136 million. For 1993-94 the figures will be : Knowsley, £71 million ; Liverpool, £199 million ; St. Helens, £62 million ; Sefton, £96 million ; and Wirral, £122 million.
Mr. Evans : I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he acknowledge that the figures he has just given show that school children in St. Helens get a very raw deal from the Government's SSAs? Will he explain to the parents of St. Helens--preferably in plain and simple English--why Liverpool and Knowsley are allocated £500,000 more to run a 1,000 pupil secondary school than the neighbouring borough of St. Helens?
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