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We do not want to become a society of sneakers and snoopers, but I endorse the sentiments of my hon. Friends that it is up to us who observe the flagrant abuse of the system to make it known. That is in the interests of genuine recipients. All of us have a part to play in this.There is an increasing mood of revulsion in the country about social security fraud. We are in a period of high unemployment, yet there are occasions when it is difficult to obtain seasonal labour in certain parts of my constituency because the black economy has become so entrenched. Part and parcel of the Government's intention in reducing taxation at many levels was to do away with the black economy.
We should give absolutely no quarter to cheats. That is very much the sentiment in my constituency and all decent people will welcome the moves announced by the Department of Social Security. Only genuine recipients with a genuine need should receive benefits. I am comforted by my hon. Friend the Minister's earlier remark that he will do everything possible to root out fraud and abuse--root and branch.
1.9 pm
Mr. Bradley : This has been an interesting, wide-ranging and informative debate. I intend to be brief in winding up because I want to hear the Minister comment on the many points that have been made. I hope that he will allow me to intervene in his speech, if appropriate, to clarify some of his answers.
Listening to the debate, I felt that I was in a no-win situation because I thought that I had made it absolutely clear that the Labour party was as committed as the Government to rooting out genuine fraud. I identified organised fraud as the major problem on which we need to concentrate. Many of the Government's initiatives have centred on organised fraud. Conservative Members who spoke earlier in the debate accused me of being a revisionist within the Labour party for taking that view. However, as the debate unfolded, it appeared that I had not made the position clear and that Conservative Members, especially the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland), thought that I was soft on fraud. Clearly, my words were not worth the paper on which they were written.
May I therefore reiterate, on behalf of Her Majesty's Opposition, that we are committed to rooting out genuine fraud wherever it occurs, whether it is perpetrated by individuals or organised gangs. Whether it is against the social security system--the Government have set a target of £1 billion --or involves tax evasion, totalling £4 billion, it is a loss to the public purse and the taxpayer and means that essential services such as social security are consequently underfunded. I hope that I have made that clear.
Lady Olga Maitland : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Bradley : I shall happily give way to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam so that she can confirm that she hears what I say, has watched my lips, and will now accept the Labour party's position on the matter.
Lady Olga Maitland : Will the hon. Gentleman clarify the importance of chasing, with all the energy that it
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deserves, the multiple number of petty criminals? By their sheer numbers, their scale of fraud is every bit as important as the small number of major fraudulent claimants.Mr. Bradley : I could not have been clearer in stating the Labour party's position on clamping down on fraud, wherever it may be, but--I was accused earlier of not saying "but" so I shall stress it now--the hon. Lady is wrong because most fraud is organised rather than perpetrated by individual claimants. If she can quote figures to the contrary, I shall accept a further intervention, but mere supposition is not good enough. Would she like me to give way to her on that point?
Mr. Bendall : Will the hon. Gentleman give way ?
Mr. Bradley : If the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene on that specific point, I shall give way.
Mr. Bendall : I remind the hon. Gentleman that I gave him some specific figures.
Mr. Bradley : I do not wish to enter a dialogue across the Chamber, because I am sure that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would quickly intervene, but the hon. Gentleman's figures did not undermine my basic contention that the vast amount of fraud throughout the social security system--housing benefit, council tax and social security benefits--is organised. That is what the Government have been concentrating on recently.
I have made it clear that, wherever that abuse comes from, the Labour party is determined to tackle it in the same way as the Government, and I hope that the Government will accept that position.
I have listened to the debate with interest. I shall put aside the rather insulting comment by the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam about our GP service, but she must justify many of the points that she raised. I welcome the fact that the hon. Lady has agreed to write to me about those matters. I was surprised when she said that the evidence for the abuse that she was claiming came from her local benefits agency. If that was the case, it may have clamped down on the abuse, which may no longer exist. I look forward to receiving information from the agency on the exact numbers and extent of the abuse in the context in which the hon. Lady mentioned it. I do not want to concentrate too much on the hon. Lady's speech, but I was pleased that she was able to tell the House that her local authority is achieving its initiative targets. The success rate is patchy throughout the country and I look forward to the Minister making further comments on that. The patchiness is not due to lack of initiative or effort on the part of local authorities, many of which are finding it difficult to reach the lower end of the target scale, let alone the upper end. Therefore, they cannot benefit from the incentive of receiving 100 per cent. of the money retrieved. That creates difficulties when transferring resources into the fraud sections of local authority departments and ensuring that those authorities receive the money for the effort that they make. I am pleased that the Sutton and Cheam authority is achieving its targets.
We have had an interesting and wide-ranging debate. We have made the Labour party's position clear--we welcome many of the initiatives already undertaken and
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some of the new ones mentioned by the Minister today. I stress the support that the Labour party gives to the excellent work being undertaken throughout the country through a multi- agency approach with local authorities, benefits agencies, police and other agencies working together in rooting out fraud. They have made immense strides in the short time given to them to organise and establish internal organisations and to ensure that they work as effectively as possible. I hope that, in time, resources will be made available to ensure that staff are properly trained so that matters can be dealt with sensitively and efficiently.I repeat my concern that when the Government attempt to root out fraud, they apply the same effort and commitment to ensure that those eligible for benefits, whatever they may be, receive their just entitlements. It is particularly important that, at a time when the poor are getting poorer, and the rich richer--there is no question but that that is true, as all the statistics show--we ensure that poor people receive the meagre benefit payments to which they are entitled. I hope that the Government, through their own publicity and by supporting the excellent work of welfare rights officers and local authority social services departments, will continue the take-up campaigns to ensure that individual claims are dealt with efficiently and claimants receive the money to which they are entitled. A number of hon. Members mentioned the clampdown on new age travellers. It is an understandable move, but it has caused great anxiety among the public. We must not confuse that subject with the view that people are not actively seeking work. All the surveys carried out, whether by Government Departments, advisory committees that advise the Government or independent research, clearly show that the overwhelming majority of unemployment benefit claimants actively seek work. It is only a tiny minority who do not --I am pleased to see the Minister nodding in agreement and I know that the Secretary of State has made the same point. The overwhelming majority of claimants are genuine and are actively seeking work.
The latest report on the subject, issued this year by the Low Pay Unit, written by Alex Bryson and John Jacobs, and entitled "Policing the Workshy" --I commend it to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam--clearly showed that people are actively seeking work and are prepared to revise their initial hopes of finding a certain type of job, given the limited number of opportunities available in the climate of high unemployment. These people are sometimes not well advised by the unemployment officers with whom they deal, who should explain to them more clearly that it would be in their best interests to reduce their expectations.
Perhaps one of the greatest impediments to seeking work is the fact that people have to fill in so many forms and complete a great many interview references showing that they have been going out looking for work. That time might be better spent actually looking for work. Still, the results of the research are clear : the vast majority of the unemployed are actively seeking work and the only reason why they claim unemployment benefit is that they cannot find a job of any kind.
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The Opposition are committed to ensuring that the social security system enables all who are entitled to them to receive the benefits that they so justly deserve. Although we need to look at fraud, we should bear in mind that there is also fraud that needs stamping out in the tax system and in public life generally, whereupon the money can be used in everyone's best interests.In the pages of the Financial Times , the Chancellor of the Exchequer, writing about attempts to control public expenditure, implied that one reason for the massive hike in the social security budget was the success of the Government's take-up campaigns, urging people to apply for benefits. I seek an absolute assurance from the Minister that in the public expenditure review--we shall return to it in the autumn, when I am sure the Government will give us plenty of opportunities to debate their attempts to curb the social security budget--there will be no suggestion of the Government's undermining people's just entitlement to benefit. The Government must ensure that benefits that are still not the subject of 100 per cent. take-up are publicised by Government and local authorities. Only thus can we be certain that the people who deserve our support through the social security system will actually receive it.
1.23 pm
Mr. Burt : This has been a most interesting and enjoyable debate, as these Friday mornings often are. We have attempted to shoot one or two stereotypes. The Government have been at pains to confirm that we pay as much attention to ensuring that those entitled to money get it as we do to curbing fraud and abuse. The Opposition spokesman has been equally determined to show that the Labour party is as rigorous about fraud and abuse as it is about ensuring that everyone gets his just deserts. Back Benchers have united to condemn Her Majesty's absent Liberals. So we have all had an enjoyable morning. We have done some serious work along the way. I shall reply to the speeches of my hon. Friends before dealing with matters raised by the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Bradley). I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate.
I am thankful for the help that we have received from members of the London cab drivers club and the Licensed Taxi Drivers Association. I pay tribute to them for their assistance in dealing with the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) of trying to uncover fraud in the taxi business. We welcome their co-operation. We work closely with them and will continue to do so. The members of those bodies work with some other Departments and the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North about the operation at Heathrow is for the Department of Employment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North could have raised another issue, but, perhaps because of his position, he decided not to do so. I shall raise it for him. It is that those who drive taxis and register as unemployed, thus taking money to which they are not entitled, are helping to drive out of business those whom my hon. Friend seeks to help. They are taking their jobs. My hon. Friend was right to mention the efforts of the taxi drivers who, day in and day out, look after people in this place. Their honesty and integrity is impugned by those who break the rules and we welcome their efforts to assist us in trying to discover the culprits.
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My hon. Friend spoke about housing benefit and payments to landlords. He has been kind enough to write to me on the subject. I shall make clear the rules relating to the direct payment of landlords. Local authorities are required to make direct payment of housing benefit to landlords when direct payments for service charges and rent arrears are already being made from income support. Secondly, it is paid in cases where tenants have arrears that are equivalent to eight times or more the weekly rent, unless it is in the overriding interest of the tenant that the benefit should not be paid directly to the landlord.Local authorities may use their discretion to make direct payments of housing benefit to landlords when the tenant consents to it or requests it. They can also be made without the tenant's consent if that is considered to be in the interest of the tenant and his family. Such payments can also be made without the tenant's consent if he has left the accommodation to which the benefit relates and there are rent arrears at that address, but the amount paid directly must not exceed the arrears.
I share the worries of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North. The Department encourages closer liaison between local authorities and landlords. I was interested in his idea of a registration scheme to control fraud. It has attractions and I will bring my hon. Friend's suggestion to the attention of my colleagues in the Department of the Environment. The day-to-day administration of housing benefit is the responsibility of local authorities and we are cautious about imposing additional burdens on them. The issues that my hon. Friend raised are precisely those that the cross- London steering group will address. I shall say more about that group in my speech.
My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson), who was supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough (Mr. Sykes), spoke about the problems of those who live and work in tourist areas. Such problems arise because of the movement of people and the claiming of benefit, sometimes inappropriately. We must maintain a balance. Where people live is largely a matter of individual choice, and the free movement of people is an essential feature of an efficient labour market. The Government do not wish to restrict that.
It would be wrong to impose controls through the benefits system on the area or type of accommodation to which people wished to move. To go down such a restrictive route in a democratic society would be fraught with difficulty. It is better to ensure that the conditions of entitlement to benefit are rigorously satisfied and that those who abuse the system lose all claim to financial support from the taxpayer.
That is why I was pleased that my hon. Friend spoke of Operation Sea Breeze and that my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) spoke of the recent operation in Preston. Only by making it clear and public to people that those who abuse the social security system will be caught shall we be able to make progress.
We will continue to bear in mind the problems of tourist resorts when we are targeting our clampdowns, and I hope that my hon. Friends will be reassured by that. We will also look at the suggestion of improving the contact between the Benefits Agency and the public in disclosing fraud. We also now have the national service level agreement with local authority associations, designed to improve inter-agency liaison and co-operation, particularly in relation to housing benefit frauds in tourist areas, to which my hon. Friends referred. We will continue to
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develop those relationships further to improve our record in catching those who abuse the system. I hope that those measures will be of assistance to my many hon. Friends who represent tourist areas and associated places.The speech of the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Walker) reminded us of the problems over the water. I was pleased that he did so, and am grateful for his attendance this morning. I listened to him with care. Just the other week, I was fortunate enough to visit the Province, in connection with the launching of the Child Support Agency there. I enjoyed my visit--I always enjoy my visits there--and I look forward to making more. I will ensure that his remarks, which fall more appropriately in the remit of my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Northern Ireland Office, are brought to their attention.
My hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) made an interesting and powerful speech. He was kind enough to apologise to me because he is unable to stay for the winding-up speeches. He reminded us most importantly that the money that the social security system distributes is not its own money. It does not belong to the Department, to the Chancellor or, sadly, to me. It is money which we have taken from people, who have earned it, to ensure that public services and the needs of others are looked after. That reiterates the point that Ministers have made from the Dispatch Box many times. Those who abuse the system are not getting back at the Tory Government but robbing their friends and neighbours. My hon. Friend made that point extremely clearly.
My hon. Friend also made an effective point about the attitudes of working people towards fraud. He made a clear distinction between those attitudes and the attitudes that we sometimes hear from those who represent left of centre parties. The hon. Member for Withington made his party's view clear, and I respect and understand that. However, some Opposition Members have said things that have caused us worry, and may have caused the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) to make his comments, which have been quoted today, about molly-coddling and the Labour party's past associations. We should welcome a break with those associations, but they have been at least part of the reason why the Labour party has seen such a slide in its support in the past decade.
The hon. Member for Withington, like others, spoke about new age travellers. Without necessarily condemning the life styles of those who seek to be alternative, many of us feel strongly that they should not support that by claiming from the rest of society. The concern about new age travellers is not that they want to be different--many people want and are entitled to be different ; the question is whether they are entitled to be different at other people's expense. Unfortunately, new age travellers symbolise those who want their alternative life styles to be supported by the very people whose attitudes they mock and deride. That is why it has been necessary to take action.
Nevertheless, the Department must always remember that any measures it takes cannot be directed at individual groups on the basis of, "We don't like your face, John." We must draw up rules that apply to all, which is what we have done in toughening the regulations on the requirement actively to seek work, about which my hon. Friends feel so strongly. The Employment Service ensures that all those who register for unemployment benefit are taking reasonable steps to find employment. Regulations
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were introduced in December 1992 to remove entitlement to income support from unemployed people and childless couples who do not actively seek work.Measures have also been taken to ensure that benefit claims by new age travellers do not inconvenience ordinary members of the public. One or two of my hon. Friends referred to the trestle tables set up to pay benefits on one occasion last summer and said that that was awful. I understand their point, but, on behalf of the Benefits Agency, I must explain that it must bear in mind the care and consideration that it owes to other claimants. If a large group of new age travellers descends on a particular office, that can be intimidating for the staff and for other claimants. On past occasions, we have been requested by the civil authorities to find an alternative way to pay benefits to new age travellers and that has been the driving force, rather than any desire to give preferential treatment to new age travellers or others who descend en masse on a particular office.
We have tried to ensure that it is clearly understood that new age travellers must satisfy the same conditions for entitlement to benefit as everyone else by proving that they are both available for and actively seeking work. We maintain close co-operation with the police to minimise any disruption to other benefit claimants and to prevent new age travellers from making fraudulent benefit claims. The Benefits Agency has established a central contact point to enable police intelligence units to share information so that district managers can be forewarned of approaching groups of travellers. That will help the agency to handle benefit claims in the most efficient way, with due regard to the needs of its other claimants. It is well aware of the need to clamp down on any fraudulent claims.
I hope that that explanation has put the matter in context. I recognise that, in total, new age travellers constitute a small proportion of those claiming income support or unemployment benefit. However, in the areas where they congregate they can cause considerable disruption to ordinary people who are going about their business and are frightened by the presence of people who are identifiably different. Of course, the fact that a person's appearance is different is not the issue, but it is wrong when such people use their numbers to be intimidatory. The Benefits Agency is entitled to feel uncomfortable about that, on other people's behalf. My hon. Friends have made their position clear and I am happy to assure them that the agency takes the matter seriously.
The hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Coed from a loony left Labour council. It was marvellous. There were three political parties on the council at that time-- [Interruption.] Perhaps the hon. Member for Withington will give me a little leeway. That council was comprised of the Labour party that ran the council, the Conservative opposition, and the Labour party that did not run the council. The degree and intensity of debate between the two Labour parties was of the greatest concern and interest to us all. I must leave it to the hon. Member for Islington, North to say which side of the counter he was on in respect of that debate. At least I
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learnt at first hand the difficulties of looking after a London borough and of providing the housing and other benefits that are now part of my brief.The hon. Member for Islington, North referred to the cross-London boroughs team. We acknowledge the initiative involved in bringing that team together and its effect, and we shall strongly support it. The hon. Gentleman spoke of his recent visit to Centrepoint. Some months ago, I visited Centrepoint in Vauxhall. We have made, and continue to make, strenuous efforts to ensure that young people who are entitled to receive benefit do so. I was struck by the number of youngsters at Vauxhall who had come from disturbed backgrounds. They move about a lot and it is difficult for them to obtain information--and for benefit staff to keep track of them and to help. We have sought to improve our information procedures. The hon. Member for Islington, North did not acknowledge that or give credit where it was due.
As to hardship payments, we have improved the information available, to make it clear that more people are eligible than was originally thought. We have produced a booklet to help young people and their advisers. Each Benefits Agency office has a special officer with responsibility to liaise and deal with young people. We have made strenuous efforts to help. Sometimes, we have been hindered by comments by Opposition parties to the effect that no young people can claim benefits--period--and that income support cannot be paid to any 16 or 17-year-olds. That is not true. In particular circumstances, 16 and 17-year-olds can receive income support. However, we have often reiterated our general policy that that is not the best option for them. Sixteen and 17-year-olds should be in continuing education, training or jobs. We will not change that policy, because we believe it is right. Where people fall through the net and are vulnerable, the Department stands ready to support them. We are trying hard to get the balance right.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) made a spirited and determined contribution to the debate and gave a variety of examples of fraud being tackled in different circumstances. She gave a catalogue of the savings that can be achieved by a determination to detect and to root out fraud. The point that I most drew from my hon. Friend's speech relates to attitudes. She indicated how attitudes to fraud and to similar crimes have changed. Some people feel that if they are taking money from the Department of Social Security, they are taking money from the Government and are somehow being clever or getting their own back. That is not true. My hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge spoke of our belief that all crime is indivisible. I condemn City fraud and sharp practice as determinedly as anyone, and as the hon. Member for Withington would expect. Just as crime is indivisible, so, too, are attitudes to dishonesty. If people think that obtaining something from the Government by subterfuge is all right, we shall be on a slippery slope. Perhaps we are many years down that slippery slope.
One reason why we face the high benefits fraud bill that we do is that attitudes have changed in the way suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam. The spirit of honesty for which she called must be rekindled, but that cannot be done solely by the Department--or by the House in the attitudes that it displays, although that can help. Neither can it be
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rekindled solely by the Government. The spirit of honesty and fair dealing of one towards another is a matter which society must take strongly. The various opinion formers, whoever they may be, must support all those who profess adherence to values that are decent, honest and timeless. The comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam were timely today and I thank her for them. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam also referred to the progress that we have sought to make on order books. I am pleased that she welcomes our efforts. We have made strides in ensuring that order book fraud will be more difficult. It costs a great deal of money, so I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments and for her support for those who have done so much work to take that process forward.Both my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam and my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring) referred to the difficulties caused by the thin borderline between legality and abuse. That has been marked by some newspaper articles about some who have come to this country from the European Community and who appear to be taking advantage of our benefits system. That is a genuinely difficult issue because we have treaty obligations to those in the European Community, and we are determined to stand by and to support those obligations.
However, I agree strongly with those who have expressed concern about the apparent ease with which people from other EC member states can claim benefit here. We have already tightened up the income support rules that apply to people who come from other member states to seek work here. My hon. Friends were right to raise points about that matter.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds was especially concerned about housing benefit. Overseas students are not treated more favourably than home students. Most are excluded on the ground of nationality. Only certain vulnerable students may claim housing benefit, and overseas students who have overstayed their period of leave, who are subject to a deportation order or who are judged by the immigration authorities to be illegal immigrants are excluded from housing benefit, even if they are in a vulnerable group. As the House appreciates, there is a distinction between persons from abroad and persons from the EC, to whom different legislation applies. We have carefully tightened up this week on particular abuse that was prevalent among persons from abroad. Most of them come to this country on visas that provide that they will not be in receipt of public funds while in this country. It has become the practice for some 10,000 a year to apply, towards the end of their stay, for leave from the Home Office to vary that restriction. The law was that if people applied for such leave, benefits became available at that stage. Few who made a request to change the visa in the particular circumstances that they described would have their visas changed. Accordingly, this country found itself paying £17 million of benefits a year to people who had no hope of having the visa restriction changed. This week, therefore, we have moved to close that loophole and we believe that were right to do so.
I can confirm to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds that we keep the position on asylum seekers pretty well under review. However, I make it clear to the House generally that the restriction I have just mentioned does not apply to genuine asylum seekers. This country
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has a long and proud tradition of being able to receive those who, for various reasons, are unable to continue their activities abroad. That tradition goes back to the Huguenots and many others. However, we must be careful in these modern days, especially because of the problems of economic migration which my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds made clear, to ensure that that hospitality is not abused. There is a difficult line to find, as debates in the House over the past two or three years have made clear. The Department of Social Security will faithfully back up the view of the Home Office in its distinctions on particular cases. I assure the House that we look carefully at the matter, but that we intend to ensure that those genuinely claiming to be refugees will get through under the new system far more quickly. They need not fear ; they will continue to be covered. I hope that, by doing so, we strike the right balance between this country's proper hospitality and abuse.Mr. Bradley : Although I agree with what the Minister has said, will he confirm, so that we do not again get matters out of context, that the numbers of people who apply for political asylum are small, so that the amount that we are talking about is equally small?
Mr. Burt : Yes, indeed. Applications for asylum in the United Kingdom totalled 22,000 in 1990. In 1991, they shot up to 44,000. The Home Office took certain action and, by 1992, the figure had come down to 24,000. That shows how volatile the numbers can be in particular circumstances, but they illustrate that we are talking about small numbers.
It is interesting, however, for those who look after purses to note that small numbers add up to a lot. The hon. Gentleman is constantly on at me and my colleagues about small amounts of money that we might be able to use to improve the benefits system in a particular way. We have to tell them that we are sorry, but we do not have the money. The £17 million that I have just referred to and false claims can add up to the sort of money that we might be able to use for just those things on which we want to spend money. That is why small amounts are important.
The hon. Member for Withington referred to take-up. I tried to make it clear in my speech that I had set my remarks about fraud in the context of this Government's determination to ensure that those who are entitled to benefits get them. The total amount unclaimed is estimated to be £1.7 billion, but that sum has to be set in the context of the amount actually claimed. We must remember that almost £9 out or every £10 is claimed and that four out of five who are eligible to make a claim do so. It also tends to be the smaller amounts that people do not claim, rather than the larger amounts. We want people to claim what they are entitled to, but we cannot force them to claim. Nevertheless, we have taken action, though various campaigns, to try to improve information about benefits. I mentioned earlier the £15 million that we spend annually on trying to make sure that people know what is available.
As for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's remarks, my right hon. and learned Friend was not suggesting in any way that the Department of Social Security should discourage the claiming of benefit. What he was seeking to do, and what the Government have sought to do in recent weeks, was to make it clear that the whole of the social
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security budget has to be looked at in terms of trends for growth. My right hon. and learned Friend was looking at the trends in the number of people making claims.Reference has already been made to the impact that these trends have had on invalidity benefit. Concern has been expressed about who is truly eligible for invalidity benefit and who is not. It was in that context that the Chancellor made his remarks, but the Department and the Government are determined to ensure that those who are eligible to claim do so. There was no suggestion in my right hon. and learned Friend's remarks that that will not remain the case. The hon. Member for Withington referred to the perceived threat to post offices. I was able to say a few things at that time. May I reiterate, however, that the anticipated growth of automated credit transfer is likely to be more than offset by an overall increase in the volume of DSS transactions with the Post Office over the next few years. We are committed to ensuring that our contractual arrangements with the Post Office continue to promote a viable and national network of post offices. We have already given that commitment. I am happy to reiterate it.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the National Audit Office report. We welcome that report in general. It reinforces a number of messages that we have been trying to get across about the need to bear down on fraud and abuse. It highlighted the extent of instrument of payment fraud--the order books. The report was complimentary about the results achieved. It highlighted a number of areas for improvement : more effective allocation of resources, improved intelligence gathering, greater security of order book delivery and the need to change the style, design and content of order books.
We have already taken action. Reference has been made to the work that we have done on order books, the result of which was introduced this week. We are also committed to investing in better intelligence sharing and in specific action with the Post Office to help to improve the delivery of order book transactions.
The hon. Member for Withington referred to the need for secrecy about the report. I hope that I can reassure him. We have two things principally on our minds in relation to the restriction of information. The first is the need to protect our investigative staff. It should be noticed that yesterday's raid, which involved the seizure of benefit books and the possible saving of many millions of pounds--one national newspaper today suggested £36 million--had to be carried out with armed police available. People who are involved in criminal operations that could net such large sums will go to great lengths to protect themselves and stop at very little to get away with their crimes. It is essential that we protect our staff, so we have to be cautious about information in some cases.
Secondly, and as the hon. Gentleman recognised, we also have to bear in mind the risk of copycat fraud, so we sometimes have to be a little careful about the information that we can relese to the public. Knowing him as I do, I am sure that, in our private conversations, we can come to proper arrangements about any information that he might legitimately need for his work. There is no problem about that.
We spent a little time talking about local authorities and their involvement in helping us with housing benefit
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fraud. I pay tribute to their work. We have found them enormously helpful in many ways. I regularly meet representatives of local authority associations to discuss their housing benefit work, and I have found it one of the best examples of co-operation between national and local government that I have come across in my time in the House.The hon. Member for Withington raised an issue mentioned to him by organisations such as citizens advice bureaux. They wonder whether, in view of the speed of the changes, we provide enough training. We try to ensure that we do. We provide free fraud training for local authority fraud investigators, and we have been able within our own budget to secure additional funding for that purpose. More than 80 per cent. of the investigators who attended the training in 1992 felt confident that they could usefully apply what they have learnt. We monitor the training to ensure that it is adequate. We thus take full account of the concerns of people outside and inside the system. I have already mentioned the cross- London fraud working group, which is a very helpful initiative. The Department has agreed to support actively this newly formed London-wide team of local authority specialists, which has been set up to tackle organised housing benefit fraud. I am happy to support that team and have already agreed that DSS officials should attend its meetings. That should ensure the contintuation of the good relationship between central and local government. In answer to a specific point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North, I am sure that he will find the team very helpful in dealing with the problems of hopping from borough to borough.
The hon. Member for Withington referred to the new system of subsidies and the changes that we have made. He expressed concern about the setting of targets. As I said, I have spent considerable time discussing such subjects with local authority representatives. The development of systems to encourage local authorities to uncover housing benefit abuse takes time, and we keep that development under review. We believe that the baseline targets that we have set have been appropriate. They are not too difficult to achieve, but we will keep them under review. We in no way intend to create disincentives for local authorities that have achieved a high level of performance. We shall review the baseline setting methodology in the light of the savings achieved in the coming year.
Mr. Bradley : How many local authorities have achieved their targets at the lower level and at the higher level?
Mr. Burt : I may have to write to the hon. Gentleman about that ; it is an especially detailed point. The higher baseline represents less than 3 per cent. of expected housing benefit and council tax benefit expenditure. If local authorities provide sufficient additional resources to tackle fraud seriously, there is no reason why savings far in excess of the baselines should not be achieved.
Mr. Bradley : My question was asked in the light of the Minister's statement that the Government believe that the targets are appropriate. Clearly, we need to know how appropriate. We need to know what performance levels local authorities are achieving against the targets. I believe that an answer may now be winging its way to us.
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Mr. Burt : The information provision system in this place is amazing. On this occasion, I must disappoint the hon. Gentleman because it is too early to say precisely what the achievements will be. I sought to show, by the answer that I gave--that the higher baseline represents less than 3 per cent. of expected housing benefit council tax benefit expenditure--that we have set realistic targets. I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern, but we know that from the local authorities.
The way in which we have worked with local authorities and changed the incentives--I know that the hon. Gentleman and local authorities welcome that as a response to what they have been saying to us--shows our good faith on this matter. It is to our mutual advantage that we work with local authorities and provide a system that saves the public money, but, at the same time, enables local authorities to do that little bit more. That has been the intention of finding a system that has given them an incentive to do work that then gets them extra money. That is not a bad thing for local authorities and they have appreciated our efforts there.
With that good faith in mind, we will look at the targets, because it is not our intention to penalise local authorities that are working effectively. I am not sure how I can help the hon. Gentleman further, but I am happy to listen.
Mr. Bradley : The Minister's comment slid off his lips, as we were expecting the answer from somewhere else. He said that he would write and tell me which local authorities had achieved their targets. Perhaps when he sees that information, he may be in a better position to review the targets.
Mr. Burt : I give the hon. Gentleman a commitment that when I am in a position to write to him with substantial information, I will do so. It might be a little precipitate to do that now, but I note the hon. Gentleman's point and I will write to him.
In conclusion, I shall clear up a few final points because we have covered so much. Market testing is a real issue in the Benefits Agency and the Government. The aims of market testing are clear. We are trying to ensure that good value for money is achieved. Sometimes, the best way to save money and change practices has been through the process of market testing. No firm decisions have been made on any market testing of the fraud operation.
We are carefully exploring the scope for ensuring the most efficient and cost-effective way of handling fraud investigations. A preliminary study has been carried out, which will be carefully considered by the Secretary of State. I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that, whatever arrangements might be entered into in the future, questions of sensitivity and confidentiality will remain of paramount consideration.
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I turn to the point of targeting our anti- fraud effort. I can reassure the hon. Member for Withington that, as far as I am concerned, cases are dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Having said that, we cannot ignore patterns of fraud when we see them. In recognising the context of fraud, and perhaps finding an area where fraud, or a specific sort of fraud, is prevalent, individuals are treated as individuals. Benefit investigators know that. If we get that balance right, we will be able to deal with the sensitivities raised by the hon. Gentleman, which are shared by many, and ensure that we direct our efforts to recover fraud savings from the areas that are most likely to produce them.We have had a long and useful debate on the subject of fraud. With estimated savings of £1 billion this year, that amount is a substantial part of any Government's budget, even a Department of Social Security budget of £80 billion. I am grateful for the attention and attendance of my hon. Friends, who gave us the benefit of their thoughts on this subject. They can reassure their constituents that they have a Government who are determined to ensure not only that those who are entitled to benefits receive them, but that those who are not, do not.
The warning is clear for those who seek to cheat, not me, but their fellow citizens. They will be found out and forced to repay. They may find themselves with a criminal record or a spell in gaol. We know that there are serious fraudsters about. There is nothing wrong in letting people know that other folk are diddling them. I hope that the Government's message of determination will be noted from the debate.
Mr. James Arbuthnot (Wanstead and Woodford) : I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That--
(1) this House do meet on Tuesday 27th July at half-past Nine o'clock ;
(2) notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 17 (Time for taking questions), no Questions shall be taken, provided that at Eleven o'clock the Speaker may interrupt the proceedings in order to permit Questions to be asked which are in her opinion of an urgent character and relate either to matters of public importance or to the arrangement of business, statements to be made by Ministers, or personal explanations to be made by Members ; and (3) at Three o'clock the Speaker do adjourn the House without putting any Question, provided that this House shall not adjourn until the Speaker shall have reported the Royal Assent to any Acts agreed upon by both Houses.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
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Cedars Nursery, Nottingham
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]
2.5 pm
Mr. John Heppell (Nottingham, East) : First, I thank the Speaker's Office for giving me the opportunity to raise this issue today. I became interested in child care because of something that happened locally. I do not profess to be an expert on it, but I have some knowledge of Cedars nursery in my constituency, which is due to be closed. I should therefore like to address the issue on a national level and a local one.
My knowledge about child care nationally stems from what has happened locally. It seems fairly strange that, at a time when many of our major employers are banding together to try to guarantee better child care facilities in the community, the national health service should cut its child care provision. Those major employers are members of the forum, Employers Childcare, and they include the BBC, British Telecom, British Gas, the Co-operative bank, Kingfisher plc, Rover Group and the TSB Group plc. They all want to improve child care provision in the community. They are not driven to do that because child care is an equal opportunities issue or a women's issue. They are not concerned about issues that are peripheral to their business. They are not in the business of charity.
The aims of that forum are clearly set out in its statement, which says :
"The provision of quality child care will help businesses to maximise their commercial potential and make the best use of the skills and labour available."
The members of that forum want to make their businesses more efficient and effective. They want to improve the provision of child care in order to retain their highly skilled and experienced staff and to reduce recruitment costs, absenteeism and poor records on punctuality--all caused because of the conflict between child care and work. They want to stop waste and increase their profits. The House should remember that I am talking about hardheaded business men--sometimes they are hardhearted--whose interest in child care is not founded on charity. They want to invest in it because they realise that they spend tens of thousands of pounds on training staff and that those staff acquire years and years of experience. Employers recognise that their small investment in child care makes not only common sense but good economic sense. I am pleased to note that the Secretary of State for Employment seems to support that important initiative.
There is no doubt that our record on child care is not good. We do not offer the same level of provision as that offered by our European competitors and that puts us at a real disadvantage in the market. According to a survey conducted in 1992 by the organisation, Working for Childcare, which is devoted to promoting good child care in the United Kingdom, there are fewer than 450 workplace nurseries in the United Kingdom and 50 per cent. of them are in London or the south. That amounts to some 12,000 full-time day care nursery places, which represents just one place for every 300 children who require it. Although I welcome the tax relief proposals that the Government made in 1990, they will have little effect because 60 per cent. of workplace nurseries are in the public sector and cannot benefit from tax relief. Only 16
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