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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Further and Higher Education (Mr. Tim Boswell) : Once again, those of us who served on the Committee--I admit that I spent only half of that time in the Committee--

Mr. Forth : It seemed longer.

Mr. Boswell : I am conscious that my hon. Friend had to carry most of the burden of the Committee. However, most hon. Members who served on it had to endure the

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Opposition complaining, whingeing, grumbling- -grizzling would perhaps be an appropriate word--about the lack of time for consideration.

I know that there is always an element of ritual in guillotine debates, but it has been ritual with knobs on this afternoon. The Opposition case has no merit, and they have not advanced it with conviction. They have not carried the House with them.

The underlying problem for the Opposition is the deliberate confusion, which they have had to cover, between their synthetic indignation at the alleged curtailment--or orderly management--of debate on lines that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) said, are well precedented by the actions of the last Labour Government, and their inability to prioritise the subjects for the debate.

Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) : Does the Minister think that people and groups such as the Cheshire dyslexia association are making synthetic arguments when they write to me expressing serious concern that issues that have come up in the Lords will not be dealt with here in proper time?

Mr. Boswell : We have provided a great deal of time for debate on the Bill. All the substantive issues have already been well rehearsed, and all the issues that have been debated this afternoon, save one, on which I shall touch--sex education--have been debated in Committee. I am satisfied that the Bill has been given full consideration.

Mr. Don Foster (Bath) : How many of the amendments that we shall be debating today does the Minister believe to be important and substantive?

Mr. Boswell : That is an absurd question, which is consistent with what we have heard before. Most of the amendments are purely technical and reflect consultation.

I shall now answer the debate. We face the usual dilemma for Governments, which is played on every time by the Opposition.

Mr. Walden : Does my hon. Friend agree that there is an extremely strong case for the guillotining of all Bills--a measure that has been discussed elsewhere, and with which both Labour and Conservative Members agree? What matters is what the time is used for. If the Opposition were not engaged in a Brezhnevite retreat against the whole concept of variety in our schools in the form of

grant-maintained schools, we could have a wider and better debate, including a debate on sex. In the case of nursery education, I should be on the side of the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor). The problem of time, which has led to the guillotining of the Bill, is the result of the stubborn Brezhnevite tactics of the Opposition.

Mr. Boswell : As ever, I agree with much of what my hon. Friend and neighbour has said. Let me take up his point about an early guillotine. I take issue with the hon. Member for Knowsley, South (Mr. O'Hara), who seemed to be under the misapprehension that the Bill had been guillotined from Second Reading on. On behalf of my hon. Friends and those who served on the Committee, I can say only that many of us wished to God it had been. We went through the initial procedure and saw the long delays and waste of time.

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The guts of the debate is simple. We are bent on the task of saving the Opposition from themselves. They are unable to prioritise their concerns or manage their time effectively or deploy their arguments. We must impose order on the structure of the debate. We are anxious to proceed with the debate and get on with the substantive issues-- [Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The behaviour of hon. Members at this point is not particularly good. It is certainly not an object lesson to any schoolchildren who may be watching.

Mr. Boswell : I hope that the House will note those strictures. We wish to consider the issues. Only one new one--sex education--has been deployed this afternoon. The sooner that we get on the debate and stop continuing with the ritual, the better.

Question put :--

The House divided : Ayes 288, Noes 222.

Division No. 338] [4.44 pm

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Ashby, David

Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Baldry, Tony

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Bendall, Vivian

Beresford, Sir Paul

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Body, Sir Richard

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia

Bowden, Andrew

Bowis, John

Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs. Angela

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Budgen, Nicholas

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butcher, John

Butler, Peter

Carlisle, John (Luton North)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Clappison, James

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Coe, Sebastian

Colvin, Michael

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Cormack, Patrick

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)

Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)

Davies, Quentin (Stamford)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Devlin, Tim

Dickens, Geoffrey

Dicks, Terry

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Duncan-Smith, Iain

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Sir Anthony

Dykes, Hugh

Eggar, Tim

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Evennett, David

Faber, David

Fabricant, Michael

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Fishburn, Dudley

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

Freeman, Rt Hon Roger

French, Douglas

Fry, Peter

Gale, Roger

Gardiner, Sir George

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