House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Oct 1993

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nuclear weapons and which has no restriction on its operation ; a Western European Union which openly admits that its most important pillar is the nuclear pillar.

o much effort, imagination, creativity and finance in developing more and more sophisticated ways of destroying life when we should be trying to find ways of preserving it--a life of dignity and hope in which our children and grandchildren have the opportunity to use their truly wonderful talents. That is surely what the Labour movement is about. That is what has attracted generations of people to our cause. If we take that road, we shall have a glorious future. If we fail, we shall be little more than a Social Democratic party mark II.

7.35 pm

Mr. David Atkinson (Bournemouth, East) : The one issue that I wish to raise, which has not been adequately addressed in the defence White Paper, is the shared development of a global missile defence system. In May this year, the United States Defence Secretary announced the reduction in research which would now be directed towards ground-based defences instead of space-based weaponry ; in other words, an end of the strategic defence initiative.

That decision is dangerously complacent and premature. I fully accept that the original Reagan concept of SDI in 1983 achieved considerable success in ending the arms race without even one brilliant pebble being placed in orbit. To his credit, President Gorbachev perceived that he could not match the technology or resources that the United States was prepared to deploy. Today, it is fashionable to dismiss Reagan's original concept of a laser umbrella as fantasy. Perhaps we shall never know.

In abandoning global defence, the United States is ignoring certain realities. It ignores the reality that the proliferation of missiles and weapons of mass destruction shows no signs of abating. By the end of this decade, 15 or more countries will have the capability to produce ballistic missiles, six countries will have missiles with ranges of 2,000 km or more, and several may possess missiles with intercontinental ranges.

At least eight countries will have nuclear weapons or advanced programmes, 30 will probably possess a chemical weapons capability, and seven or more will possess biological weapons. Of course we must hope that international efforts to introduce controls and conventions will succeed, but we have yet to reach that situation.

By the early years of the 21st century, numerous countries with ballistic missiles will have the ability to release not one but dozens of small bomblets--cluster munitions--that would overwhelm any land-based defence system.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will accept that the implications of that for western security and international stability, or instability, are tremendous. The deployment of space-based missile defences, preferably in co-operation with the Russians, is an essential minimum response to such proliferation. The absence of such deployment will serve only to encourage such proliferation. It will also challenge our will and our capability to respond to regional aggression such as that of Iraq against Kuwait, which led to Desert Storm.

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In view of the United Kingdom's memorandum of understanding with the United States Government sanctioning co-operation in the research of SDI, I should like to know what consultation was undertaken byMr. Aspen, the United States Defence Secretary, before his announcement effectively ending SDI.

In view of President Yeltsin's offer to Congress in April that Russia wanted to develop global defence with the United States, sharing costs and technology, it would be interesting to know whether he too was consulted on the ending of SDI.

In short, I believe that the Clinton Government's decision to abandon global defence without regard to the anticipated need for global defence is utterly irresponsible. It is a missed opportunity not only for international co-operation but in the development of dual-use technology.

For example, it now threatens to put back the development of the space telescopic mirror, which would transmit light and energy for peaceful purposes, as well as the so-called death ray laser beams. Those are all areas in which British, European and Russian technological capability could be deployed, but American leadership is required. I look forward to hearing from the Minister what representations have been made.

We in Europe cannot afford to abandon the goal of an effective space-based missile defence. One of the lessons of the Gulf war was that an attacking rocket requires to be intercepted in its early boost phase--which means within 70 seconds of launch for a Scud missile. It requires tremendous speed, and can only be guided by sensors from space. That must remain our goal, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will confirm that tonight.

7.40 pm

Mr. Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne, East) : In common with the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson), I wish to refer to one aspect of this wide-ranging debate, although it is not the same one. I make no apologies for making a constituency speech, because of the appalling circumstances that currently confront Swan Hunter shipbuilders on Tyneside. The shipbuilding community on Tyneside has served Britain well in peace and war, and it deserves a hearing in the House--a hearing in the most desperate circumstances.

Two key procurement decisions have put Swan Hunter--the last remaining shipyard in Tyne and Wear--into receivership : the procurement of the auxiliary oiler replenishment vessel--HMS De Lorean as it is known in the industry--and the recent decision as to the procurement of the landing platform helicopter carrier--the LPH. Both were political decisions, both claimed to provide the best value for money at the time of procurement, and both winning bids were heavily subsidised, although by different routes. The eventual outcome of the procurement of the AOR1 has become one of the greatest defence procurement scandals of the post-war era.

The Ministry of Defence has a responsibility to Swan Hunter, both as a supplier and as the main employment base of a community that has provided more than 80 per cent. of all the Royal Navy's fleet auxiliaries in the past 20 years. That community has provided, and continues to

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provide, warships built to time and delivered fault-free to the Ministry of Defence. It has a record unequalled by any other supplier.

The decision to allow Swan Hunter to go into receivership was not taken lightly by the Government. The Prime Minister, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department of Employment, as well as the Treasury and the Ministry of Defence, were all involved in the discussions as to the consequences and in the decision. The outcome--Swan Hunter going into receivership--reflects the collective view of the Government, not just that of the defence chiefs. What has amazed all those who have followed this issue is the way that the Government have failed to respond to the situation at Swan Hunter since the company went into receivership. No commentator on Tyneside--including Conservative-supporting newspapers like the Evening Chronicle, and broadcasting media like Tyne Tees television and Metro radio--has been able to explain or to understand the Government's indifference to the company's plight. It is all the more perplexing because prospective private-sector purchasers of the business cannot make final commercial judgments because the Government's attitude is ambiguous.

Perhaps there is no ambiguity at all about the Government's attitude towards Tyneside. Perhaps the Government want the business to close ; perhaps they want it to cease trading as a shipyard, whether military or merchant. Perhaps they are trying to pretend to the outside world that closure is not their objective, whereas in reality it is. If that is the sort of unambiguous response that we will get from the Government, I hope that the Minister of State for Defence Procurement will tell the truth about the Government's approach to Swan Hunter.

It is a matter of record that, since the receiver arrived, every initiative to help Swan Hunter has been met with double dealing from the Department of Trade and Industry and cold hostility from the Ministry of Defence.

Closure of Swan Hunter has meant some 6,000 direct and indirect redundancies in Tyne and Wear, redundancies inflicted on a shipbuilding community where male unemployment is already 38 per cent. even before the redundancy rounds are completed. There are still 1,600 men working at Swan Hunter, building the type 23 frigates.

The Government have not announced any significant economic development package for the area, whether directly related to shipbuilding or not. The whole issue of intervention funding has been grotesquely mismanaged, particularly in the Government's dealing with the European Commission.

The only possible assumption that can be made is that this was deliberate. Intervention funding would have enabled Swan Hunter to survive as a shipyard, and would have facilitated the transition from over-reliance on warship building to a broader base of civilian activity. Significantly, such a broader base and state aid were made available to Harland and Wolff at the time of the AOR1 competition, and to Kvaerner-Govan at the time of the LPH procurement. When the Germans needed intervention funding consent from the European Community to deal, perfectly understandably, with the difficult problems in East German yards, the German delegation to the European Commission was led by the German Chancellor, after some very strong lobbying, conducted by all parties and at all levels of

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German public life. The Germans made it perfectly clear that they were serious about preserving their shipbuilding industry and competing directly with the Pacific rim.

We sent the Minister for Industry, the right hon. Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury) to Europe. He managed to put the wrong case to the right commissioner at the end of a meeting convened to discuss something else. Later, he managed to put the right case to the wrong meeting, a meeting that had no power to agree to intervention funding.

By dressing up the Swan Hunter case as part of a package for all four yards, the Minister is disingenuously able to claim, for domestic consumption, that he has made a special case for Tyneside, certain in the knowledge that he has also made a case that the European Commission cannot possibly accept.

It is impossible to escape the conclusion that the Government's intention is to blame Europe for Swan Hunter not getting intervention funding, or better still to blame European socialists. That contemptible strategy would not convince even a Conservative party audience, if such a thing could still be found in Tyneside. The behaviour of the Ministry of Defence has been even worse. Now that the company is in receivership, the Ministry of Defence is denying it a chance to tender for any MOD work--even minor refit work that would be completed well before the type 23 frigates leave Tyneside. Some 90 per cent. of the refit work for the entire British fleet has now been earmarked for Rosyth dockyard to help underpin the employment base there. I make no complaint about that, but the people who took that decision will not give Swan Hunter a single ship. There is no core programme for Swan Hunter. The Ministry of Defence could bring forward the landing ships logistic, LSLs, for Swan Hunter--the ships are currently in the programme--but the Government will not do that, because the Prime Minister has personally forbidden it. Even more absurdly, the Ministry of Defence is refusing to send the AOR1 to Swan Hunter, where the several thousand defects that have so far been discovered on that vessel could be remedied by the same work force who delivered its sister ship, the AOR2, to the Navy, defect-free.

Not content with denying the yard domestic work, the Government must take the blame for preventing Swan Hunter from gaining a key overseas contract. The Government of Oman wished to place a contract for patrol vessels with Swan Hunter--two or three to start with, but potentially more. The British Government allowed the Omani order to go to a French shipbuilder, CNN, rather than allow the work to be carried out on Tyneside. The international shipbuilding community could not conceal its collective amazement when the Omani decision was announced.

The British Government's attitude has become clear. No other European Government would behave in such a way. It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the Conservative party is deliberately starving the yard of work, with a view to seeing it close. I hope that, when the Minister of State responds to this debate, he can give the lie to all that, and that he will say that the Ministry will allow Swan Hunter to tender for work, will allow it to win work from his Ministry, will put work into the yard--either while it is in receivership or when it is in new ownership--and that it is the Ministry of

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Defence's wish that it makes the transition to new ownership by a shipbuilder that can tender for Ministry of Defence work.

Mr Aitken : That is exactly the position.

Mr. Brown : I hope, therefore, that the Minister will list the work that Swan Hunter can tender for, and will give an assurance to the House that that work can go into the yard, even though the yard is in receivership.

Mr. Aitken : As long as the yard is in receivership, it will be difficult for it to have the financial strength and credibility to win new orders from the Ministry of Defence, although we have done our best to give it some extended new work on one or two matters that the hon. Gentleman knows about.

As for the future, we hope that Swan Hunter will survive and flourish and win new orders competitively, and we will do everything to make that possible.

Mr. Brown : On Tyneside, that will be interpreted as "No".

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris) : Order. Mr. Neville Trotter.

7.50 pm

Mr. Neville Trotter (Tynemouth) : I will resist the temptation to follow the perverted and obtuse line taken by the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Brown). I remember the way in which he advised the House, at the start of the sad story of Swan Hunter, that it was all the result of a deliberate plot by a small cabal in the middle of the Ministry of Defence. That spurious and ridiculous idea was seen off by the National Audit Office. I shall confine myself at this stage to the comments that I had intended to make on the general defence scene.

Defence has been a success story. NATO kept the peace for 40 years and won the cold war. Excellent work has been carried out year by year in humanitarian aid and peacekeeping by our forces. In the major war in the Gulf, a significant and distinguished part was played by our men and women. The forces always respond admirably to the challenge. Great tribute must be paid to the individual men and women and to their leaders. We must ensure that our defence policy remains a success.

Our very success in the cold war has caused difficulties. The collapse of the Soviet Union and a reduction in the Russian military capability has led to an inevitable reduction in strength for all the western allies. In our case, we have received a peace dividend in the form of about a 25 per cent. reduction in manpower and a similar envisaged reduction in funding. We have already enjoyed the peace dividend. There is no more to come, in my judgment.

When we confronted the Warsaw pact countries, it was never easy to find the funds to provide all the defence that we desired when the need was obvious. Indeed, force numbers were spelt out for us by NATO, which was helpful.

In the changed circumstances of today, much more difficult decisions must be taken. The Treasury, as always, busily pursues the saving of public money and naturally seeks to maximise the peace dividend. The Treasury argues for the minimum leveel of defence, but the current plans provide the minimum acceptable level of defence. They provide a balanced and capable force.

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A side effect of the cold war was that forces designed to support NATO were available to fight and win elsewhere, such as in the Falklands and the Gulf. The challenge now is to ensure that, without the immediate and obvious threat from Russia, we maintain that capability to use when necessary.

Self-evidently, the world is far from stable--it is much less stable than it was at the time of the cold war. We read daily of the conflicts raging. In the background of the former Soviet Union there are terrible problems and tremendous pressures. Who can say what form of government will ultimately emerge?

We must be prepared to meet the unexpected, to respond quickly and unexpectedly to unforeseen crises, and furthermore to be able to sustain operations for lengthy periods. It is not sufficient to provide only a gendarmerie for low-intensity peacekeeping. Who can predict when we shall again be called upon to take part in a high-tech campaign such as that in the Gulf?

We must not forget the long-term possibilities, either. Defences are easily disbanded, but it takes many years to rebuild them. Russia retains formidable military capabilities. We wish it well in tackling its immense problems, but we cannot forecast the outcome of the struggle in that country.

The Government have sought to confront the uncertain future with powerful, highly competent forces. I welcome the White Paper. The way in which it sets out the details of our forces is a great improvement. It is inevitable that the more is spelt out, the more questions are asked.

I commend the Government on the way in which they produced the White Paper this year. The Ministry's long-term costings have been carefully constructed so as to maintain our capability. There has been no improvement in the world scene since the long-term costings were arrived at, and no reduction for defence reasons could possibly be justified to reduce the long-term costings now.

I welcome today's announcement of the ammunition order. It will be well received at the Birtley Royal Ordnance factory on Tyneside. My right hon. Friend will understand if I refer particularly to the need to order more Challenger 2 tanks to enable the armoured regiments of the Army to be entirely converted.

Exhaustive studies have taken place in the Ministry and it has been unanimously agreed that the best solution for the Army and the best value for money is to proceed with an order for Challenger 2. I urge my right hon. Friend to proceed in the near future with that order. I emphasise the importance of that order for Vickers, not least for the plant on Tyneside. Such a United Kingdom order would be helpful in securing further export orders for that excellent tank.

I shall mention the question of Navy orders. The House is aware of the disastrous effect on Swan Hunter of losing the LPH order to VSEL. The immediate appointment of a receiver highlighted the dearth of orders in the naval field. Every endeavour is being made locally to secure a new owner for the yard. That is obviously needed. Some months before the collapse, the then owners of Swan Hunter advised me that they could not continue on their own, and that a new owner was needed.

The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East suggested that inadequate attempts have been made to

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obtain permission from the European Commission for intervention funding. I can categorically deny that, from the content of discussions in which I have taken place. I welcome the Minister's assurance that Swan Hunter can again, with a new owner, compete for new orders for the Royal Navy.

Let me mention potential orders. I welcome the statement at the start of the debate that there are to be more orders for type 23 frigates. I urge my right hon. Friends to proceed as fast as possible with those important ships for the Navy. I also mention the pressing need to replace the landing platform docks Fearless and Intrepid, which are not only 30 years old but expensive to run--far more expensive than modern successors would be.

The Select Committee on Defence, on which I have the honour to serve, pointed out in a report the age of many of our RFAs. Swan Hunter is especially well placed to provide the necessary replacements for those ships.

I welcome the announcement that competition is to take place in ship repair for the Royal Navy's fleet. For too long those ships have been allocated to Devonport or Rosyth. If we read carefully the pronouncements on the future, we shall see that half the surface warships will go out to competition. I welcome that. Tyneside has a proud record. The Southampton was very satisfactorily repaired after collision damage and a Leander was satisfactorily modernised and refitted a few years ago on the Tyne.

In considering the defence scene overall, we must maintain our defence industrial base. We must maintain our technical capability ; we must ensure that every help is given to the industry to secure exports ; and we must retain the capability to acquire the necessary equipment to expand our forces if needed in some future crisis. 7.57 pm

Mr. Peter Hardy (Wentworth) : I will refer to the industrial strategic requirement later in my speech. I will follow the comments then of the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter).

We have heard many references in the debate to the horrors and slaughter in this unstable world. That instability, and the dangers internationally, lead us to view the role of the Secretary of State with some sympathy as he seeks to extract resources from the Treasury. We cannot wish him well, but we have sympathy, not least because many Opposition Members understand that, if he fails, it will not be Conservative Members who suffer but the personnel in the armed services, to whom so many tributes have been paid in the debate. The wicket on which the Secretary of State is batting is a bad one, for it comes at a time when Britain's economic weakness is utterly demonstrable--and it is severe. We have experienced a massive decline in our international economic position. Over the past 12 years, we have slipped from sixth to 15th place, and it has become increasingly difficult to match our international obligations with our economic capacity.

I am not suggesting that we should run away from those obligations. My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) pointed out the importance of our position on the Security Council, but we will eventually reach the point where the policies and values adopted by this Administration for the past decade

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must be changed--or Britain will not be able to fulfil the commitments that Conservative Members so avidly want us to pursue. Tribute after tribute has been paid to our service men, but tributes do not relieve the pressures of their duties, the strain of their separation from their families or their profound anxieties about their careers. Yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) made a plea for a gap of 24 months between overseas tours. He was referring to the Army ; but the Minister will confirm that it would be impossible for the air force to offer a 24-month gap between tours. A great many RAF personnel have done three tours of duty in a 24-month period--some even more. The strain on those young men and their families is serious indeed.

The young men who perform these frequent tours of duty are never in one place for long, and they are extremely anxious about their careers. The highly skilled technicians whom the Air Force needs to retain are worried about whether their promotion prospects have been slowed down. They are worried that they may not reach the next rank which will allow them to stay in the service.

If they do not, they will be forced out into a world in which there are no jobs, and their great technological abilities will probably be wasted. Young officers, some of whom I know, who are on their fourth tour in a 24- month period, do not know yet whether they will receive permanent commissions, yet they too need to maintain the energy and enthusiasm which the service certainly needs.

The services will not be well served by the contractorisation which, as I said in another debate, leaves Britain with the capacity to defend the realm between 9 am and 5 pm, because civilian firms cannot provide the resources outside that time that the services seem to need.

Defence is not only about people : it is about equipment too. On the last occasion that we debated this subject, I pointed out that the Hercules has been in squadron service for 25 years. Now it is a year older, and it needs replacing, because it is being used more intensively now than ever before. If the Hercules needs replacement because of its antiquity, so too does the Wessex, which entered squadron service some years before the Hercules and which carries our troops in conditions of considerable hazard.

The hon. Member for Tynemouth mentioned the strategic factor. We have also heard about shipbuilding. The Minister tried to tell us that our merchant fleet is large enough to sustain us in a crisis. If it is, it will not be for much longer if its decline continues. As for engineering, in South Yorkshire we have what is probably the finest engineering steel production capacity in Europe. We have made enormous sacrifices and put in a great deal of investment to achieve that in recent years, but the Templeborough steel works, which produces steel of strategic importance, is to close--not because the quality of its production is poor, or because there have been delivery delays, or because the work force is inadequate. It is to close because three plants in Europe, two in Germany and one in Spain, are competing with it. None of those plants can compete with the United Kingdom firm, United Engineering Steel, on equal terms, but they remain in competition with it because the German and Spanish Governments give massive state aid to their industries. Our superior plant therefore has to close.

The Minister responsible at the Department of Trade and Industry tells us that we must understand the difficulties facing the German and Spanish Governments in

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their areas. So we have to bear the costs, despite the fact that unemployment in our area is much worse than in those European areas for which the Minister appears to have some sympathy. The Minister has also assured me that the DTI will serve Britain's national interest. What national interest is served by the slaughter of our merchant marine, our shipbuilding industry and our engineering steel industry?

The Government may be able to manage the armed forces, although increasingly the latter tend to doubt it, but they have shown that they are utterly unfit to manage the strategic requirements of this country.

If Britain is to play the proper part in the world that many of us feel it should, we must return to an economic approach that will make our commitments and obligations achievable. If they are being achieved at present, that is only because, caught between political incompetence and economic inadequacy, our forces are carrying burdens that are becoming intolerable. I honestly believe that, before very long, the Conservative party will have to tell the Government that enough is enough, and that a far wiser approach is essential. 8.5 pm

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : When it was proposed to merge the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Rangers, the Democratic Unionist party warned of the consequences, especially for part-timers in the UDR. It has been clear for some time that the UDR and its part-time members are in the sights of the Republican Government and of certain elements in Northern Ireland. Indeed, the day the Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed, Garrett Fitzgerald and Dick Spring announced that the agreement would put the UDR out of action. The vicious attacks launched against the security forces of Northern Ireland, part-timers in particular, are testimony to their effectiveness and their dedication to duty. Twenty years ago, a young member of the UDR was murdered. This week, his mother died, killed by an IRA bomb.

At the time of the merger, the threat to the part-time element was raised in this House. I remind the House that no proper debate on the merging of the regiments was permitted. Indeed, the only Member given the chance to speak in the debate--myself--was guillotined, and no other Ulster Member was allowed to speak.

We were, however, given certain assurances. But the Minister of State for the Armed Forces has supplied my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) with figures showing that, since 1990, the part-time element in the UDR and the RIR has decreased from 3,075 to 2,794 ; and the number of recruits taken on each year has also declined, from 843 to 407. So, during this crucial period, the number of part-timers has fallen by 10 per cent.--in line with the Dublin-led demands for the phasing out of the part- time element.

There has been a steady reduction in the part-time element ever since the late 1970s, in fact, and the trend has accelerated even as Dublin applies the pressure.

I am also perturbed by the fall in the number of recruits to the regiment. There has been a 50 per cent. drop in the number of soldiers joining it since 1990. The 1992-93 total of 407 compares poorly with totals of between 1,300 and 1,600 in the late 1970s. The people of Northern Ireland are at present faced with an upsurge of killing and terrorism on all sides. They need *F

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to know that the security forces, and the part-time elements in particular, will be maintained and strengthened, and that the IRA will not be given the massive boost of seeing the part-time element eliminated.

I have listened with interest to what Ministers have said about the part- time elements of the security forces. I was surprised that the former Minister for the Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton), talked as he did in the House yesterday. He talked about getting outside operators in, for example, to guard the Maze prison. There are already people who are trained to do that. Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that they be sacked to make way for new people who need to be trained? The problem could be solved by using the people who are willing to give their services.

I was also surprised that the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have joined the "Troops Out" movement. He said yesterday that, although he did not want a radical measure, he thought that the Government could achieve their goal by withdrawing a battalion from Northern Ireland every six or 12 months. It would not be long until there were no troops there at all if that were done. The right hon. Gentleman also said that, the longer the British Government continue to talk to Dublin, the more they give the IRA the impression that they could leave the United Kingdom altogether with one more push. That is unnerving people.

I suggest that the British Government should deal with the claim that the Dublin Government have over a territory of the United Kingdom. Having dealt with that claim, the oxygen would be taken from the IRA, and it would realise that there was no hope for its campaigns.

However, I cannot accept the assurance that was given to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East that there is no hidden agenda. That is because of the stark facts before us, and the well-signposted intentions of the Dublin Government, the Social Democratic and Labour party and others who have been prominent in the pan-nationalist attacks on the Ulster Defence Regiment through the years. The Minister has admitted that the trend of steadily reducing the number of part-timers will continue, at a time when terrorism is on the upsurge. The people of Northern Ireland are convinced that the rundown of the part-time element will continue until it is no longer of any significance, when it will be done away with altogether. Such a betrayal of the part-timers would be an insult of the highest magnitude to the many who have paid the ultimate sacrifice while serving their Queen and country. The UDR has lost more of its members than any other section of the armed forces. That would be another victory for the IRA and for their fellow travellers.

The part-timers must be retained, because they are needed. At the height of the recent troubles, it was only because part-timers were available that serious sectarian riots were stopped and the districts affected were policed in a proper manner. I would appeal to the Government tonight to face up realistically to what is happening in Northern Ireland.

People are concerned. We hear that the IRA Sinn Fein leader has come to an agreement with the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume), the leader of the SDLP. They have said that they now have a plan and, if the plan can be further negotiated, all will be well. The next time the Sinn Fein

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leader opens his mouth, he is defending the violence and the bombing. He also tells us that there can be no peace until everyone has got around the table. They will decide how peace can be achieved. The IRA could turn off the violence simply by ceasing to bomb, kill and maim.

I trust that the Government will recognise their responsibilities within the United Kingdom. I welcome the fact that the Minister for the Armed Forces has left in the Library copies of correspondence that give the figures for recruitment to the UDR and Royal Irish Rangers through the years. Hon. Members should read it for themselves to see what is happening in Northern Ireland.

8.16 pm

Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde) : I was delighted to hear the announcement from the Government that, after a considerable delay, they were going to give a £200 million order to Royal Ordnance.

It was not long ago when Royal Ordnance was bought with British Aerospace. One of the major announcements was that the Bishopton Royal Ordnance factory was to close. I remember that, at the time, everyone said that it would close. The work force fought vigorously and showed the country that they were a caring and dedicated bunch of workers. They were committed to the defence of the country as much as the soldier on the front line. They wanted to work and to contribute to the country. That battle was won, and they have won the right to continue to work in Bishopton. I am glad to say that the factory is still open, and that there are 430 workers still there.

What worries me is that over 600 workers have now left. I can assure the House that those people will probably still be unemployed, languishing on the dole, scramblingm about looking for work and still trying to live on the pitiful dole money that the Government provide for the so-called unfortunate unemployed.

What happened to the grand statements made by the Government about diversification? They have done nothing for the former workers at the Royal Ordnance factories. I can assure the Minister that the workers were delighted to hear today's announcement. However, why was there a huge delay? The announcement could have been made months ago, and we would not have lost all of the jobs that have gone.

I heard the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) talking about jobs that were created in his constituency, including "75 bean counters". I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I would be quite happy to get some of those 75 bean counters jobs in my constituency. Do hon. Members remember what the Minister said? He replied to his hon. Friend that, in a previous life, he had been a bean counter. I can tell the House that he is certainly not working for a bunch of smarties now.

I have never seen such a dummy Government. They cannot manage the economy and they cannot look after the nation's defence in a sensible way. Thousands of dedicated people who have worked sincerely in our arms industry are looking now at the Government who have mismanaged the economy, run the country into a £50 billion deficit and are now looking to cut their jobs to make a saving for the Government's mismanagement.

During the Falklands crisis, the Bishopton factory workers worked 24 hours a day and sweated blood. That was not just to ensure that they kept their jobs, but to

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ensure that the soldiers, sailors and airmen had the best equipment and the most accurate weapons, provided by British workers. We must recognise that, when our people produce arms for our people, they work to produce the best. Britain should buy the best. It should not go for the lowest bidder.

It is a joke to say that we should go to foreign people in a war and ask them to provide our weapons. I would not chance it. The people of this country would not like it. The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) can smile all he likes, but I am sure that if he wanted a bullet to put in his gun to fire at the enemy he would prefer a Royal Ordnance factory worker's bullet to anyone else's bullet. He would want one which would work ; one which would explode and make sure that his head was not blown off.

Today I met a group of shop stewards. They were men who have worked almost all their life at the Royal Ordnance factory. They have skills. They recognise the changing world more than the Government do. But they also recognise that they have a right to receive a wage to pay their rent, electricity and food bills and to pay for a house, a holiday and all the things that go with a salary. The workers say, "Tommy, if the Government continue in their mad, blundering way, are we going to have a job? Are we going to face the dole?" They do not see the Government doing anything to diversify from products for war into meaningful civil products. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what the Government intend to do.

I intervened lightheartedly in the Minister's speech about the ladies who are training as helicopter pilots. Funnily enough, I mentioned the military helicopter that the Tory party in my area used to raise funds. I received deep, sincere apologies and was told that it would not happen again. The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) intervened later to say that I had cast a slur on our helicopter service.

Mr. Martlew : It appears that that is not the first occasion on which the Conservatives have used military aircraft for private means. Two years ago, in the south of Cumbria, the Red Arrows put on a display because it was the birthday of a former Cabinet Minister.

Mr. Graham : I am most grateful for my hon. Friend's illumination. The Government have abused their power in every way. They use our military forces for their own needs and even to fill their coffers--probably because Asil Nadir did not give them enough. They use a helicopter to make a few bob.

There is no way that I would cast a slur on any of our service men. My late father fought for this country for nine bloody years. He died when I was 19. I am proud of my father and of his record as a sailor in the Royal Navy. I would never cast a slur on the men and women who fight in the front line for this country. The hon. Member for High Peak (Mr. Hendry) can smile all he likes. People like my father made it possible for him to sit where he is.

Clearly, the world is changing. There is a major split in the special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom. I watched the previous Prime Minister talking about the special relationship on television the other day. What a load of nonsense. Mr. Clinton is saying to the United Kingdom, "You are on your own," because he does not get what he wants. Europe does not get what it wants. The special relationship is nonsense when it

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