House of Commons Hansard Debates for 20 Oct 1993

Mr. Henderson : Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the real issue is not merely the point made by northern region councils, although that is important, but the absurdity of the present system? Under the all-ages social index, which, as the Minister knows, is an important component of the standard spending assessment, Oxford is calculated as more deprived than Liverpool and Cheltenham as more deprived than Newcastle. Will the Minister admit that if a fair and accurate system is to be found it must take into account the real factors of deprivation, such as unemployment and income levels? Will he tell the House today that, before the announcement on local government finance in December, he will make an announcement on any changes that he may propose to the SSAs?

Mr. Curry : The answer to the second part of the question is no, because we shall make the announcement about that when we announce the rate support grant settlement. On the hon. Member's third question about the all -ages social index, because the discussions that have taken place with the associations have not been behind closed doors, he will know that we are examining whether unemployment and health indicators should be brought into the index. We shall announce those conclusions and if those indicators are included it will be because our analysis shows that they should be and that they show areas of real need.

Local Authority Associations

11. Mr. Hall : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many meetings he has had with representatives of the local authority associations since April 1992.

Mr. Baldry : Between April 1992 and May 1993, my right hon. and learned Friend the then Secretary of State met representatives of the major local authority associations on nine occasions. My right hon. Friend has since met representatives of those associations on four occasions, most recently at the Consultative Council on Local Government Finance on 12 October.

Mr. Hall : I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that section 143 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 has not yet been given a commencement date? That section requires local authorities to compile a register of contaminated land. So far, only six local authorities, including my local authority in Warrington, have compiled such a register. Those registers enable local authorities to identify tracts of contamination, neutralise them and allow development to take place, thus removing areas of blight in our towns. Has the Minister informed the local authority associations when section 143 will be implemented? If he has not been able to give them a date, can he say when implementation will commence?

Mr. Baldry : The policy review of contaminated land is going extremely well. Every developer has to be responsible for discovering the history of particular pieces

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of land. Our work on the register of contaminated land has made sure that every solicitor and every developer is conscious of his need and responsibility to discover the history of any land that he wishes to develop.

Mr. Vaz : Does the Minister recall that on 14 September the local authority associations discussed with the Secretary of State an agreed list of members for the Committee of the Regions and that on 29 September that list was submitted in writing? As the Minister knows, the list was carefully prepared and agreed by all the parties, including his own. Why has the Secretary of State refused to accept that list and why has he ignored the views of the associations? Will the Minister assure us that the Secretary of State will stop delaying this matter and accept the views of the associations, or is this just another example of the Government's blatant disregard for democracy and consultation?

Mr. Baldry : It is a function of the local authority associations to nominate and it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State to choose. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will choose extremely well.

Mr. Clifton-Brown : When my hon. Friend met the local authority associations, did he discuss market testing and compulsory competitive tendering, because there is still a huge cultural barrier to overcome with local authorities in this respect? This is the second-largest area of public expenditure, and a substantial sum could be saved if those concepts were advanced.

Mr. Baldry : My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. Independent research by Birmingham university shows that substantial savings of between 7 and 20 per cent. have been made through competitive tendering. Every local authority will need to be able to demonstrate to local council tax payers that they have made the maximum possible savings through competitive tendering. I hope that, increasingly, we will not have to force local authorities to do that through compulsory competitive tendering regulations, but that they will see the value and virtue of exposing services to competitive tendering to get the best cost and results for their council tax payers.

Local Government Reorganisation

12. Mr. Olner : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he last met representatives of the local authority associations to discuss local government reorganisation.

Mr. Curry : On 14 September.

Mr. Olner : The Minister said earlier that he wanted local government reorganisation to become closer to the people. I would not disagree and suggest that we should look at unitary authorities based on districts. As well as closeness, those authorities need a degree of freedom.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Reading.

Mr. Olner : I can read. They need that freedom to be able to conduct their affairs to the best of their ability on behalf of the people whom they represent. Bearing that in mind, and because of all the uncertainty that the Minister has created by advancing this reorganisation, will he agree

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to suspend compulsory competitive tendering for blue and white-collar workers within those organisations until reorganisation has been completed?

Mr. Curry : The hon. Gentleman is behind the times. We have made it clear that we will not introduce white-collar competitive tendering during the course of reorganisation so as not to give local authorities more than they could handle at any time.

Mr. Milligan : Will my hon. Friend convey to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State my enthusiastic support for his remarks a few moments ago about the need for variety in local government? Is he aware that in Hampshire there is support for unitary government in Southampton and Portsmouth, but elsewhere in the county there is strong support for the existing two-tier system? Will my hon. Friend confirm that if the Local Government Commission finds that there is strong popular support for maintaining the county council and also finds that it is the most cost- efficient way of running the rest of the county, it will be able to recommend the continuation of the present two-tier system?

Mr. Curry : The Local Government Commission acts independently in the framework of the guidelines that we have laid down. The fact that those guidelines have been modified reflects the request of Sir John Banham that the Government should clarify their intentions in that area. Having clarified our intentions, the Government clearly wish to see that the bulk of recommendations should be consistent with those new guidelines. I temporarily suspended the review--about which there has been some comment-- to achieve that consistency. When the Commission makes its recommendations, we will have to examine them and make our judgment and, at the end of the day, the House will have to make its judgment. Only when the House has done so will we be in a position to implement.

Mr. Tipping : Has the Minister discussed with local authority leaders the cost of local government reorganisation? Does he accept that the transitional costs will be in the region of £1.2 billion? Will he give an assurance to local authorities and the House that services will not be cut just to reorganise local authorities?

Mr. Curry : Everybody is chasing a piece of paper that came from the county councils which quotes that figure. That is not my Department's estimate. If I may say so, the county councils who expect their lives to be relatively short-lived perhaps have some interest in exaggerating the transitional costs.

Water Bills

13. Mr. David Nicholson : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent consultations he has had on proposals to moderate the burden of water bills for domestic consumers.

Mr. Gummer : In recent months, I have met the Director General of Water Services, the European Environment Commissioner, the chairman of the National Rivers Authority and representatives of the water industry. Those discussions have formed part of my consideration of the issues as addressed in a letter to Mr. Ian Byatt entitled

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"Water Charges, the Quality Framework", which I and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales have just published.

Mr. Nicholson : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the vigour that he is showing in those matters, but he will be aware that the figures that are being talked of for increases year after year, especially in the south-west, are quite intolerable. Will he therefore concentrate his efforts on minimising those costs in the coming years, not only in the area covered by South-West Water, where they are at their greatest, but in other areas such as that covered by Wessex Water, which includes most of my constituency? Will he not lose sight of the benefits to single-person households, especially, which might be obtained from sensible metering?

Mr. Gummer : I am sure that my hon. Friend is right to say that we want the lowest possible charges consistent with providing the standard of water quality and the cleanliness of beaches that we are all seeking. That means that we must strongly draw to the attention of companies the ways in which they can keep their costs under control and to talk in the European Community to ensure that we are seeking sensible standards in sensible time scales. I agree with my hon. Friend that metering has many attractions, but that is a matter for the water companies.

Mrs. Anne Campbell : Will the Minister join me in condemning Anglia Water, which has the highest water charges in the country at £248 per head? Will he also condemn it for compulsorily metering households and recognise the hardship that that will cause to families with young children?

Mr. Gummer : I believe that the hon. Lady's constituency is covered by the private Cambridge Water company. My constituency is largely covered by Anglia Water, which I would not condemn at all. I think that it is an extremely good company which provides a good service and it has been much improved since privatisation, as I am sure my hon. Friends would agree. Metering has a number of advantages and it is necessary to look at them.

Mrs. Peacock : Many people in Yorkshire find it difficult to pay their water charges. What action can the Government take to moderate the huge increases in those charges which many people cannot afford to pay?

Mr. Gummer : I am happy to look at any particular incidents that my hon. Friend would like to bring my attention. Obviously, that is the case. However, the fact is that water charges reflect the cost of providing water. It is very much better to direct our help to those who need it than to say that there should be some way in which to subsidise water itself. We should recognise that water is one of the necessary parts of life and, in an attitude of promoting sustainable development, we must ensure that water is properly cared for. That means a pricing system that reflects its cost.

Ms Short : Will the Secretary of State give an undertaking that he will not pressurise the European Commission to repeal the drinking water directive which would mean that standards of cleaning up our water in Britain were reduced? People in Britain want clean, decent water at reasonable prices. They know that prices have escalated since privatisation largely because directors of water companies have given themselves intolerable pay

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increases and because investment plans have been funded over far too short a period. The south-west needs help with the burden of cleaning up its beautiful coastline in which we all have an interest. Will the Secretary of State give an undertaking that he will not reduce bills by reducing standards?

Mr. Gummer : The people of Britain have very good-quality water at very reasonable prices. That is the position today. We want to raise standards progressively and sensibly. There is no doubt that within the European Community there are many other countries, like ourselves, which from time to time may say that they have some details in the arrangements for reaching those standards which are out of kilter. It is perfectly reasonable to discuss those matters and I will certainly do so.

I agree with the hon. Lady. What we want is what we already have, on which we can improve--high-quality water at reasonable prices. The reason for the increase in water charges is overwhelmingly the need for massive new investment to raise standards. The hon. Lady does her party no good by suggesting to the public that there is any reason for it other than that, which is manifest from the figures.

Local Authority Debt

14. Mr. Hendry : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the current extent of local authority debt ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Curry : At 31 March this year, the total outstanding debt of local authorities in England was £37.6 billion. We shall continue to encourage authorities to reduce their debts.

Mr. Hendry : Can my hon. Friend confirm that the level of indebtedness is markedly worse in authorities that are Labour controlled than it is in those that are Conservative controlled? Can he also confirm that those indebted Labour authorities are, all too often, the authorities that have the highest average levels of council tax, the highest levels of uncollected rents, the highest levels of empty council properties and the worst services for looking after their population?

Mr. Curry : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Some authorities seem to believe that debt has no impact at all. The fact is that debt costs the equivalent of £110 per adult in the country. Of course, that is money which must be paid in interest charges ; it is money which cannot be spent on services. The taxpayer and the ordinary citizen have every interest in ensuring that that debt is brought down because services immediately benefit.

Mr. Betts : Is not it a bit rich for Conservative Members to talk about debt in the current situation? Does the Minister accept that the debt of local authorities, by law, is incurred in investment in long-term infrastructure projects? Labour authorities that have debt have it because they have invested in housing, in schools and in public transport systems over the years. The difference between their debt

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and the Government's debt is that the Government have frittered away the long-term assets of this country and have their debt because of their short-term economic crisis.

Mr. Curry : One need only go to Sheffield to find out how untrue that is.

Mr. Matthew Banks : Is my hon. Friend aware of how much local government in Southport is in debt? It is in debt to my hon. Friend for listening so carefully and for acting so decisively to ensure that the structure of local government in my constituency will be reviewed shortly so that we can recapture the unitary authority status that we lost in 1974 and the independence that Southport rightly deserves.

Mr. Curry : We have made it clear that the Boundary Commission will examine the boundaries in the metropolitan areas when it has concluded the present review. I have no doubt that where there is an overwhelming demand for change, it will listen to those demands.

Water Disconnections

15. Mr. Barnes : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he next expects to meet representatives of the Office of Water Services and the water companies to discuss water disconnections ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Yeo : Ministers and officials do, from time to time, meet representatives of OFWAT and the water companies to discuss matters of mutual interest. My right hon. Friend has no immediate plans for meetings to discuss disconnections.

Mr. Barnes : Is the Minister aware that there are 50 disconnections of water supply per day in homes in England and Wales? There is evidence to show a clear link between rates of dysentery and disconnections. Why do not we have a more sensible system such as that which exists in Scotland where there are no disconnections? Debts are dealt with through the courts and evidence is passed from the citizens advice bureaux to OFWAT to deal with debts and payments. We do not want prepayment meters to be introduced so that people cut themselves off and dysentery spreads in their areas.

Mr. Yeo : The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong in his assertion of a connection between dysentery and disconnections. In Scotland, where disconnections are illegal, the incidence of dysentery shows exactly the same trends as in England and Wales. A water company has to go through a most elaborate procedure before any customer is disconnected. Disconnection is an absolute last resort for those who will not pay their bills ; it is not for those who cannot pay their bills. If we were to ban disconnections it would do nothing to help poorer families ; indeed, it would add to their costs as they would carry a share of the burden of those who refuse to pay. Disconnections would only help the skivers at the expense of the honest customer. That is why the Labour party espouses that cause.

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