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House of Commons
Thursday 21 October 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Citibank International Bill
[Lords] (By Order) Unibank Bill-- [Lords] (By Order)
Orders for Third Reading read.
To be read the Third time on Thursday 28 October.
Woodgrange Park Cemetery Bill
[Lords](By Order) Read a Second time, and committed.
East Coast Main Line (Safety) Bill
(By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 28 October.
Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
Health Care, Down
1. Mr. Olner : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he next intends to visit hospitals in the Down district of Northern Ireland to discuss health care in the district.
2. Mr. Frank Cook : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what representations he has received from Down community health committee on matters relating to health care in Down district.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Michael Ancram) : My noble Friend Lord Arran intends to carry out a visit to health and social care facilities in the Down district including the Downe hospital, in the very near future. In November last year, in response to Eastern health and social services board's acute framework document, the Down community health committee forwarded to the Department of Health and Social Services a document entitled "Save our Hospitals". In July of this year, the committee forwarded a further document called "Our Future Hospitals".
Mr. Olner : The Minister is obviously aware of the profound concern that has been expressed in the Down area of Northern Ireland over the threat to the area's maternity and acute services. Why does the health authority insist on threatening the future of the two hospitals which provide excellent care for the local community? Is the health authority being driven by the needs of centralised finance, and not looking at the benefits provided in the community?
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Mr. Ancram : The hon. Member will be aware that the Eastern board is currently finalising its strategy document and it would be wrong at this stage to speculate on what might be in that document. When the document has been completed, it will be forwarded to my noble Friend Lord Arran, who will give it careful consideration. That consideration will be given in the light of representations that are made to him, and also those that I will pass on to him that have been made in the House today.
Hospital Closures
3. Mrs. Helen Jackson : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last discussed with members of the Eastern health and social services board the question of the closure of and reduction in hospitals in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Ancram : The Secretary of State has had no discussions with members of the Eastern health and social services board about the provision of hospital services. My noble Friend Lord Arran keeps in regular contact with the board about the progress in the development of its strategy for acute hospital services.
Mrs. Jackson : Further to the question he has just answered, does the Minister agree that the effect-- Hon. Members :-- "Reading".] I am not reading.
Does the Minister agree that the closing of the two hospitals in Downpatrick--one of which is a maternity hospital which is only eight years old and which has tip-top facilities--will have a profound effect on people who need to travel to hospital? The closures will mean that there will be a journey time of one hour and a cost of £5.30 to anyone who goes by bus. What sense is there in the area authority taking such action in the face of widespread public hostility?
Mr. Ancram : The hon. Lady is doing exactly the opposite of what I asked her to do, and is speculating on what might be in the report. That speculation negates the process, of which I will remind her. The Government set out their overall policy and objectives and, once that is done, the health and social services board is expected to respond with its own area strategy. On this occasion, the Eastern and Southern boards have chosen to supplement their area strategies with separate documents for acute hospital services. However, the consultation and approval process remains the same and will be carried out as it always is in such circumstances.
Mr. John D. Taylor : As local people and their representatives in Northern Ireland have no say whatever in the operation of the Eastern health and social services board, will the Minister draw to that body's attention, at his next meeting with it, the fact that the population of Belfast has fallen from 400,000 to 280,000 in the past 10 years? Will he tell the board that there is now an overcapacity in the provision of hospital beds in the city of Belfast, and that we want the board to provide more hospital facilities to serve the people of the Castlereagh, Ards and North Down boroughs, which are increasing in population day by day?
Mr. Ancram : I am sure that the board will have heard the right hon. Gentleman's words in the House today. He will understand, however, that the process will work only if the board is allowed to formulate its strategy, subject to
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its own process, and bring it before the Minister. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that, once that is done, the Minister will consider the strategy fully in the light of all the representations made.Mr. Hume : Does not the Minister agree that the real purpose of his health policy is nothing to do with improving health, and that the Government are turning hospitals into marketplaces for making a profit? Does he not agree with the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mrs. Jackson) that services such as maternity services should be as close to the people as possible, especially in rural areas? Why does the hon. Gentleman propose to close the maternity services unit in Omagh in County Tyrone?
Mr. Ancram : I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman, of all people, has not watched carefully the improvements that have been made in health service provision in Northern Ireland. Let me give him one or two figures. In the past five years, the number of patients treated in hospitals each year has increased by 41,000, or some 17 per cent. In the past two years, the number of patients waiting more than two years for treatment has decreased by 82 per cent. In the past 10 years, deaths from coronary heart disease among those under the age of 65 have fallen from 230 per 100,000 to 153 per 100,000--a drop of 33 per cent. I wish that the hon. Gentleman would sometimes talk up the health service and show the good work that it does in Northern Ireland.
Mr. William O'Brien : Will the Minister prevail on the noble Lord Arran to visit the hospitals in the Eastern health and social services board area, to talk to those who provide the services and to listen to some of their genuine concerns? We know that there is no democratic accountability in the boards, but, at present, there are local health and social services councils. Under the new arrangements, those councils will be dispensed with and there will be no opportunity for people to bring forward local interests to be acted upon. Will the Minister impress on his colleague Lord Arran that he should discuss such matters with the people who provide the services and listen to what they are saying, as that is most important?
Mr. Ancram : I am sure that my noble Friend Lord Arran will have heard the hon. Gentleman's request. I repeat that consultation plays a full part in the process. I also repeat what I said right at the beginning--that my noble Friend intends to visit health and social care facilities in the Down district, including the Downe hospital, in the near future.
Security
4. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on security in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Sir John Wheeler) : Since my right hon. and learned Friend answered a similar question on 1 July 1993, there have been 13 deaths as a result of the security situation in Northern Ireland, including 12 civilians and one soldier. The Government will continue to pursue a security policy that strives to defend the people of Northern Ireland against those who try to promote their views by violence or threat of violence.
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Mr. Townsend : I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend to a post for which he seems singularly well qualified. First, there have been reports during the summer recess of arms finds in Northern Ireland. Can he give the House further details? Secondly, what have the security forces done to try to improve their relationship with local people in Northern Ireland?
Sir John Wheeler : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The Royal Ulster Constabulary, ably supported by the Army, is succeeding in arresting a large number of terrorist offenders. As at 10 October this year, 283 people had been charged with terrorist-related offences, including 46 with murder or attempted murder. Moreover, large quantities of firearms, ammunition and explosives are being recovered by the operations of the RUC, so ably supported by the Army. I should further say to my hon. Friend that the relationship between the public and the RUC and the Army has never been better and is improving all the time.
Mr. Maginnis : In view of Lady Thatcher's frank admission in her memoirs that the United Kingdom received far better intelligence co- operation from most other European countries than from the Irish republic and her conclusion that the Anglo-Irish Agreement's contribution to security was very limited, is it still the Government's intention to continue, in her words, to refrain from security policies that might alienate the Irish Republic?
Sir John Wheeler : I speak for the Government as it is today and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the co-operation between the Garda and the Royal Ulster Constabulary has never been greater. I have visited many of the border police stations and seen evidence of that co-operation. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that co-operation will continue.
Rev. William McCrea : Bearing in mind the bomb at Cookstown courthouse in my constituency which displaced many elderly people and the recent death in our Province of another constituent of mine, the innocent Annie Bogle, because of the IRA bomb in Castlederg thrown near elderly people, what would the Minister say to my constituents are the steps that the Government intend to take to end the reign of terror that the people of Ulster have suffered for more than 20 years?
Sir John Wheeler : I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the policy of the Government is to use the resources of the RUC and the Army to the fullest extent to arrest and detain the terrorist gangs who commit those abominable crimes. In no circumstances will the Government permit any killing or crime to take place without the fullest investigation and the determined support of the forces of the Crown to prevent those outrages from recurring.
Dr. Hendron : While I appreciate that the Provisional IRA have been the main killers in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years, will the Secretary of State make a statement about the murder gangs of the Ulster Defence Association and the Ulster Volunteer Force? Bearing in mind that almost 30 children in west and north Belfast have been left without a parent over the past few months because of those murder gangs, that thousands of Catholic people, mainly in the Belfast area and beyond, are living in fear and terror,
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and that, as the House knows, the most recent victims of those murder gangs were Jody Reynolds and Patrick McMahon, will the Secretary of State make a statement?Sir John Wheeler : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. As he knows from our recent meeting, I take very seriously such wanton killing of individuals. No matter what the motive, it is evil, wrong and should be opposed. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Royal Ulster Constabulary will do its utmost to prevent such outrages. Nine people had been charged with serious terrorist offences in the five days from 8 October.
Lady Olga Maitland : May I seek the Minister's assurance that, despite the row over defence budgeting, not one soldier will be withdrawn from Northern Ireland and the Army will remain properly equipped?
Sir John Wheeler : I am glad to repeat the assurances of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who made it absolutely clear that the Government will continue to devote all resources necessary for security in Northern Ireland. I am glad to confirm that position today.
Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1993
5. Rev. Martin Smyth : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many responses he received to the draft Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1993.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : Up until 19 October, 15 responses had been received from interested organisations and individuals. My noble Friend Lord Arran has recently extended the consultation period by eight weeks to allow all those who wish to express views on the proposal further time to do so.
Rev. Martin Smyth : I welcome the extension, for which we had asked even before this was published, but may we have a sitting of the Northern Ireland Grand Committee to discuss the order, which is one of the most vital to come before the House because it affects the future of many people in Northern Ireland, particularly our future generations?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman has said. It is for the House authorities and principally the Leader of the House to determine whether the Northern Ireland Committee should take heed of what he has asked. I shall draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the request.
School Curriculum
6. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the curriculum in use in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Ancram : Northern Ireland has its own distinctive curricular framework based on areas of study. Compulsory subjects are broadly the same as in England and Wales. Arrangements are in place for ongoing monitoring and review of the curriculum, but, in response to teachers' concerns about overload, I have asked the Northern Ireland Curriculum Council to complete a detailed review of the primary curriculum by the end of April 1994.
Mr. Greenway : I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he join me in welcoming the admirable interim report
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of Sir Ron Dearing, and does he agree that Sir Ron Dearing's concept of the need to equip our children to compete in a world of enormous job challenges from the Pacific rim and from other areas means that there will have to be new and original thinking on the curriculum? Not everything can be tackled, but changes will have to be made, and teachers, parents and children must be ready to accept them in the interests of future generations.Mr. Ancram : I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. He will appreciate that Sir Ron Dearing's review does not extend to Northern Ireland, but, because our systems are similar in many respects, his recommendations will be of much interest to us. I shall certainly want to take account of whatever emerges from his review in considering the best way forward in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Beggs : I welcome the announcement that the Minister made earlier this year that there will be no new programmes of study in the primary school this year, that there will be a review of the curriculum and that there will be a further pilot scheme on assessment. The Minister is establishing a reputation already as a listener, but will he assure the House that the curriculum review will be wide ranging and that account will be taken of the views of teachers, managers in education and parents so that those who ultimately have to deliver the policies that are implemented will have an input in creating those policies and will be committed to them?
Mr. Ancram : I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman has said. The purpose of the review is to investigate problems and concerns that have arisen in schools, especially in relation to overload. The curriculum council has issued a paper for wide circulation seeking comment on the problems encountered by teachers. It investigates the contributory factors and seeks views on solutions. There will be wide consultation. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that we do not want unnecessarily to prolong uncertainty. I have, therefore, asked for a report by the end of April. I hope to be able to implement some of its findings in time for next September and most of its finding for the year after.
Mr. Rathbone : Under the review, will my hon. Friend ensure that sufficient health education is included in the curriculum?
Mr. Ancram : I will certainly take on board what my hon. Friend says.
Inter-party Talks
7. Mr. Barnes : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the latest position concerning inter-party talks.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The Government remain determined to promote further political dialogue towards a comprehensive settlement involving the main constitutional parties in Northern Ireland, the Irish Government and ourselves. We are engaged in private bilateral discussions, exploring the basis on which further dialogue can take place.
Mr. Barnes : Would not talks be facilitated by moves in the Republic of Ireland to make its practices more acceptable to Protestants in Northern Ireland, and moves in Northern Ireland to make its practices more acceptable to
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its Catholic minority? The Opsahl commission has made a number of proposals that may be of considerable benefit. Its report has been discussed throughout the island of Ireland, but discussed little in Britain. Will the Secretary of State ensure that it forms part of the backcloth to tomorrow's debate on Northern Ireland issues, as it may be relevant to the development of talks?Sir Patrick Mayhew : The hon. Gentleman will need to be more particular in his complaints about practices both north and south of the border before I can answer that part of his question. If I am lucky enough to catch the Speaker's eye, I will refer to the Opsahl report in a speech. That is how I prefer to answer the hon. Gentleman's question today.
Sir James Kilfedder : In a recent television interview, the president of Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, declared in regard to any possible settlement that the British people and the Government would have to sue for peace, and, moreover, that the Unionist majority in Northern Ireland would not have a decisive say in the future of the Province. Will the Secretary of State comment on that?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I generally do not comment, in the House or elsewhere, on what other people have said. However, I re-emphasise that the Prime Minister made it absolutely clear in his speech at Blackpool that the Government will continue to stand behind the democratic wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. There has been much very understandable and proper talk about self-determination. Whether the present status of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom is confirmed or changed will depend--and depend alone--on an act of self-determination by the people of Northern Ireland.
Mr. William Ross : Surely the talks that took place betwen the two Governments last year have clarified the parties' position for everyone concerned. Why does the right hon. and learned Gentleman go on talking about further talks when the position is absolutely clear? Is he aware that whenever the word "speculation" appears in denials, the people of Northern Ireland have learnt by bitter experience that usually the speculation is accurate? Is he further aware that the proposals made by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) and Mr. Adams are nothing less than an IRA demand for total surrender to the violence, and the threat of further violence, from the IRA? Will the Government make it clear that they will not surrender to those demands, no matter how much blarney is wrapped around them?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I have not had the advantage of a copy of the text to which the hon. Gentleman refers. At the end of the talks process on 9 November last year, all parties agreed that there was a need for further dialogue. The hon. Gentleman referred to the talks process, but it is further dialogue that everyone agreed should continue, and it is that formulation which I used in my answer. I believe that the people of the Province as a whole share the view that it is important that politicians should sit down and see whether there is any further progress to be made towards the objectives that they all signed up to as long ago as March 1991.
I need not go further in answering the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question than to reiterate what I said to the hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder) a
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moment ago : that the people of Northern Ireland have a basic democratic right to decide their future. The Government will continue to back the democratic wishes of the people of Northern Ireland.Mr. Peter Robinson : Has the Secretary of State had the opportunity to read, in yesterday's The Irish Times, what is purported to be the outcome of the so-called Hume-Adams initiative? Are the proposals outlined acceptable to the Secretary of State, or does he still stand by his often- repeated remark that self-determination by the people of Northern Ireland will decide the political destiny of the Province?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The latest repetition of my often-repeated remark occurred about 10 seconds ago, just before the hon. Gentleman asked his question, so naturally I stand by it. I think that it is unwise to speculate on a matter that has not been communicated to the British Government. I agree with the four church leaders who said recently, in a joint statement, that they regarded speculation as unhelpful and dangerous.
Mr. Mallon : The Secretary of State is obviously aware of the discussions taking place between my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) and the president of Sinn Fein, in a sincere attempt to end violence and bring peace to the north of Ireland. Will he assure the House that if there is even the slightest chance of peace, he will take the opportunity and not let it slip? Will he assure us that he, as Secretary of State, will not allow short-sighted intransigence, feigned self-righteousness or his Government's deal with the Ulster Unionists to stay in power to stand in the way of the peace that the people of the north of Ireland crave and deserve so much?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : One thing is needed to secure the peace desired by everyone in Northern Ireland--and much more widely, I may say. That is a declaration by the Provisional IRA and other terrorists--a declaration that those people mean--that the perpetration of violence is over, and over for good. It is not a question of ceasefires, with the threat of only a temporary relief. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's implication that peace in his terms--at any price--should be pursued.
As I have said many times in the House and outside, if that message is given, and if enough time elapses for the fact that it is for real to be established in sceptical minds, we shall be at the beginning of a new phase.
Mr. Garnier : Has my right hon. and learned Friend found the apparent embracing of articles 2 and 3 of the constitution of the Republic by Her Majesty's loyal Opposition, through the agency of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), to be of any assistance whatever in the conduct of the inter-party talks?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I believe that it is generally understood that there is much of a constitutional character to be discussed by the two Governments. It is as well understood by the Government of the Republic as it is by us that articles 2 and 3 have a central part to play in those discussions, and also in the discussions on all three strands with which we were concerned last year.
I am bound to say that I thought the tone of the speech made in Cork by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull,
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North (Mr. McNamara)--as it was reported-- rather more supportive of no change in articles 2 and 3 than I would have expected him to be, if he was being realistic.Mr. McNamara : I was interested to note that the Secretary of State was able to question the tone only of a report of the speech. At his request and that of his office, a copy was sent to him yesterday. If he had read it, he would have seen it clearly stated that both articles 2 and 3 and the Government of Ireland Act 1920--which have been bones of contention between the two different communities in Northern Ireland--should be on the table for discussion.
Talking of matters being on the table for discussion, does the Secretary of State still believe that, as a basis for the inter-party dialogues, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I think that it is entirely for the participants in the process to decide by what rule they should proceed. For my part, I believe that it is clear that to assemble around the table again immediately would be counter-productive ; I believe that the right process now is to explore, in bilateral discussions with the other parties, how we can best take matters forward.
I am glad to note that the hon. Gentleman has retained his position, at least for this afternoon, and I hope that he will still be there tomorrow morning. I hope that he will then be able to tell us whether the recent publication of the views of some of his closest advisers on Northern Ireland represent the policy of Her Majesty's Opposition. They state :
"We also recognise that critics will claim that our model of shared authority is undemocratic because it will initially have to be imposed against the wishes of a majority of Northern Ireland's citizens. We reply first of all that Northern Ireland, at present, is not a legitimate unit of democratic decision-making and rests on coercion."
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will confirm whether that is his view, as a spokesman for the Opposition.
Health Care (Down)
9. Mr. McGrady : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what assessment he has made of the proposals for the Down group of hospitals in Downpatrick, County Down, put forward by the Eastern health and social services board ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Ancram : I am aware that there is much concern about the future of the Down group of hospitals. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Eastern health and social services board expects to publish its strategy on acute hospital services in the near future. That will be sent to my noble Friend Lord Arran, who will examine it carefully before deciding whether to endorse it.
Mr. McGrady : I thank the Minister for his reply, which was perhaps inadvertently slightly disingenuous, in that the Eastern health board report is already complete and is in the Department of Health and Social Services. The Department and the Minister will make the decision de facto, not de jure. When his ministerial colleague considers that report, will he take notice of all the community concerns and uphold the effective and cost -effective general and maternity provision that is made in the Down district hospital? Will he also bear in mind the enormous economic and social consequences that an adverse decision
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would engender for Down district and do his utmost to ensure that accessibility, with the group provision that we already have, will be the basis of the eventual decision?Mr. Ancram : I am very much aware of the importance of the Downe hospital to the people of Downpatrick and district. I am well aware of the concerns that exist there, as is my noble Friend Lord Arran. I have to say, however, that the report to which I refer--I referred to it earlier--was that by which the Eastern and Southern boards have chosen to implement their area strategies with separate documents for acute hospital services. That is not yet before my noble Friend Lord Arran. When it is, he will give it due consideration.
Economy
10. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Irelins) : The Government are helping to strengthen the Northern Ireland economy through measures intended to make business more competitive. We are helping companies to identify and remove obstacles to growth ; encouraging inward investment ; building up management and work force skills ; developing an enterprise culture ; and supporting innovation, research and development.
Mr. Thurnham : Does my hon. Friend agree that it is in the interests of all concerned fully to support the Government's policies in Northern Ireland and that the prosperity of Northern Ireland is of vital imporance, not only to everyone in the British Isles, but to investors overseas?
Mr. Atkins : It is important to support not only Government policies in Northern Ireland, but Government policies generally. My hon. Friend is right. The inward investment programme of activity has been carried out by the Industrial Development Board, supported by a variety of Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies. I am grateful to them, as they constituents should be, for that effort, which does so much to provide new jobs in the Province.
Mr. Clifford Forsythe : Although I congratulate the Minister on the foreign investment and the extra jobs that have been brought into Northern Ireland recently by him and his Department, may I ask him to set up representatives from his own Department, the IDB and the Local Enterprise Development Unit, to discuss ways of better helping local inventors and entrepreneurs? If those products were properly developed, more local jobs would be created in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Atkins : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for mentioning the subject, which he and his hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross) have already drawn to my attention. It is worth recording that about 90 per cent. of IDB funds are spent on existing companies in Northern Ireland--small ones through LEDU, progressing to IDB, growing into successful companies, which have become extremely important in United Kingdom terms.
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However, if there are cases that he would like me to consider, affecting his constituents or anyone else, I should be more than happy to consider them.Mr. Bellingham : Is the Minister aware that the privatisations of Harland and Wolff, of Short Brothers and, more recently, of Northern Ireland Electricity--which were all bitterly resisted by Opposition Members --have been extremely successful? Surely that shows that what Northern Ireland needs is not less privatisation but more.
Mr. Atkins : The first time that I visited Northern Ireland the cranes of Harland and Wolff were absolutely static and I saw nothing happening, Shorts were struggling to find investment and other companies were in a similar position. Since privatisation, the two companies to which my hon. Friend referred have become enormously successful. Shorts recently celebrated its 85th anniversary with a massive order worth about £70 million and Harland and Wolff is going from strength to strength and is making some fine ships again--so, my hon. Friend is entirely right. The more that we can do to encourage private sector involvement in what were public sector companies, the better it will be for the economy of Northern Ireland.
Homelessness
11. Mr. Worthington : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give the latest figures for the total number of homeless people in Northern Ireland ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Atkins : I am advised by the chief executive of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive that on 1 October 1993, 441 households were living in temporary accommodation secured for them under the homelessness provisions of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1988.
Mr. Worthington : Is it not the case that in Northern Ireland the number of people in urgent need of rehousing is increasing, that the number of people with the most urgent need--those in the A1 category--is also increasing, and that a large number of other people have been defined out of existence as homeless by Housing Executive procedures? Is it not becoming more and more difficult to get a home in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins : The simple answer to almost all those questions is no. In the past 12 years, urgent housing has dropped from something like 19,000 to 10,000. The Housing Executive has a large amount of money to invest in housing of one form or another. It is with no sense of complacency that I recall for the benefit of the House that Northern Ireland does not have as great a problem as other parts of the United Kingdom. That is thanks to the sterling efforts of the Housing Executive at all levels. It is relatively easy to get a house in Northern Ireland, if the need is proved.
Mr. Trimble : Will the Minister review the homelessness legislation, in the light of a series of recent incidents in my constituency? A family, already believed by their neighbours on the estate to be responsible for vandalising and burning down a dozen houses to steal the fittings, last Tuesday set fire to their own house and have been rehoused by the Housing Executive, which even paid their removal expenses because it is so scared of legal actions being taken against it under the homelessness legislation that it will not
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take a proper stand. Surely something should be done to ensure that the legislation not only caters for the genuinely homeless but does not let criminal elements exploit it in such a way.Mr. Atkins : I am greatly disturbed by what the hon. Gentleman has said about a specific case, but we cannot deal with the matter on the Floor of the House, as the hon. Gentleman will understand. If he wishes to write to me with details, or to contact my office, I shall be more than happy to ask the chairman of the Housing Executive to look into the matter.
Military and Police Manpower
12. Mr. Robathan : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the proportion of regular troops of the British Army to full-time RUC officers currently serving in Northern Ireland ; and how long he expects that proportion to remain.
Sir John Wheeler : On 31 August 1993, there were 11,659 full-time police officers, including full-time reservists, and 14,770 members of the regular Army, including full-time members of the Royal Irish Regiment, serving in Northern Ireland. There are therefore approximately nine policemen for every 11 soldiers. Manpower levels are kept under regular review.
Mr. Robathan : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Does he accept that the security situation in Northern Ireland gives little ground for optimism? Does he further accept that the British Army has a justifiably high reputation for counter-terrorist expertise and operations, which members of the RUC, excellent though the men and women of that organisation may be, are neither trained nor recruited for? Does he consider that some of the military resources to which he referred earlier are not being properly used in the Province? Might he not, therefore, consider whether greater military input into tactical operations and strategic planning might lead to a better resolution of the security situation there?
Sir John Wheeler : I know that my hon. Friend comes from a background of military service and therefore his views are to be respected, but it is for the Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary to determine the deployment of the police and other security services in Northern Ireland. The Army works in association with the RUC and I can assure my hon. Friend that its present role is extremely effective. I do not accept his contention that the present security situation gives little ground for optimism. Far from it--earlier this afternoon I told the House about the continuing success of the RUC, supported by the Army, in arresting terrorist gangs and seizing arms and explosives.
Mr. Molyneaux : In agreement with the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan), does the Minister feel that the statements ill-advisedly made by a former Defence Minister are seriously flawed, and that, henceforth, the decisions on troop deployments and manning levels should be decided by the GOC and the Chief Constable, particularly as it has now been confirmed by Baroness Thatcher that the co-operation of the Irish Republic has been extremely disappointing, a view which she was prepared to state while she was head of the Government of which many present on the Front Bench were members?
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