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House of Commons

Friday 22 October 1993

The House met at half-past Nine o'clock

PRAYERS

[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PETITIONS

Standard Spending Assessment (Greenwich)

9.35 am

Mr. Nick Raynsford (Greenwich) : I rise to present a petition signed by more than 2,000 residents of the London borough of Greenwich calling on the Government to revise their standard spending assessment formula to remedy the grave injustice which the present formula causes to Greenwich. For more than 2,000 people to sign a petition on a subject as arcane and technical as standard spending assessments shows the strength and depth of the feeling of the people in my constituency and the whole borough of Greenwich on that issue. The system is unquestionably unfair, as it rates Greenwich substantially below all the other inner London boroughs and several outer London boroughs on a range of indicators, when there is clear and incontrovertible evidence that the needs of Greenwich compare with those of other inner London boroughs.

For example, the children's social service element in the standard spending assessment allows Greenwich just £308 per child, which is a staggering £147 below the next lowest inner London borough, yet Greenwich suffers from the highest incidence of infant mortality in London and has the fourth highest number of children on the child protection register and the third highest number of place of safety orders issued by magistrates.

Clearly, the current system is failing fundamentally, which has promoted the wave of justified anger among Greenwich residents, who therefore request

"that the House of Commons does everything in its power to obtain a just standard spending assessment for the London borough of Greenwich. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray". To lie upon the Table.

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Banks Residential Home, Bangor

Madam Speaker : We now come to the Adjournment debate.

9.37 am

Sir James Kilfedder (North Down) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Yesterday, I called at the office upstairs and gave notice that I intended to present a petition this morning. I had my request authenticated and signed, and was told that I could present it at 9.30 today. What has happened, and why am I not allowed to present my petition now?

Madam Speaker : There has been a misunderstanding. From what the hon. Gentleman says, it seems that he went to the Upper Table Office. His petition has been authenticated, although it is not in my dossier. That being so, of course I shall hear it.

Sir James Kilfedder : I am grateful to you, Madam Speaker. Nearly 5,000 of my constituents are exercising, through me, the centuries-old right of petitioning Parliament to prevent a grave injustice to a small but vulnerable group of elderly people who live in the Banks residential home, Bangor, County Down, and to the dedicated staff who so lovingly care for them.

The petitioners vigorously protest at the proposed closure of this modern, purpose-built residential home by the Eastern health and social services board, which imposes cuts on the health service in the area but never on its own inflated bureaucracy. The board does not seem to care about the traumatic effect on the elderly residents and their relatives of closing its residential home.

The petition reads :

"Wherefore, your petitioners pray that your Honourable House will appeal to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to intervene to stop any possible closure or use of The Banks for anything other than a Nursing or Residential Home. Any tampering with this Home would be cruel to the residents and staff, who together form a big happy family. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, etc."

To lie upon the Table.

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Northern Ireland

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Robert G. Hughes.]

Madam Speaker : I inform the House that many right hon. and hon. Members wish to take part in the debate today, which is a good sign. That being so, may I make a plea for fairly short speeches, so that I might call all those who are seeking to speak?

9.40 am

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : We are all extremely glad of this rare opportunity for a full day's debate on the affairs of Northern Ireland. I should like to range widely over the affairs of the Province, while heeding your injunction, Madam Speaker, and remembering that, before the recess, the debate on the appropriation order was curtailed.

Northern Ireland is changing. For the House, but also for people much wider afield and not only within the United Kingdom, the message that I have today is that a far better future is not simply what the people of Northern Ireland deserve : it is something which they sensibly and rationally expect. Already, it is gathering shape. There seem to be two Provinces called Northern Ireland : the one that many of us know well, and that which is publicly portrayed. To those who see Northern Ireland only at one remove, it must seem quite extraordinary that anybody should be confident that it has a better future. But those of us who know the real Northern Ireland know the extraordinary progress that has been made, and the rising confidence of people who work and live there.

Listen to what the CBI said in its September survey of business confidence in Northern Ireland :

"Confidence in the Northern Ireland economy exhibits the largest positive balance since the question was first asked in 1987." If one goes to Derry, pride in what the city has achieved and faith in what the future holds are at once apparent. "Don't talk about the two cathedrals festival being cross -community," said Mr. Donal Doherty to us all after a brilliant musical occasion last Saturday night. "This is the community." He was right.

Hon. Members should go east to Belfast, and talk to privatised Shorts and its workpeople, or northwards to Ballymena and hear the plans that the council and business people now have for its future. They should talk to the managers of business across the Province representing inward investment attracted from overseas. They should talk to the people newly in work and read of tourism's repeated record as more and more people come and find out what Northern Ireland is really like. They will sense that rising confidence. It is with the economy that I want to start, before turning to social advances within the community, and from there to security matters, before coming lastly to political developments within the complex scene.

Unemployment is still quite deplorably high. It is no comfort that, in the Republic, it is notably higher. North and south, Ireland has always had higher proportions of its people unemployed than has Great Britain. My predecessor of 80 years ago, Chief Secretary Augustine Birrell, once wistfully reflected that, if he could only get the jobs, most of his other Irish problems would subside.

There are real grounds now for confidence in the resilient performance of the Northern Ireland economy

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over the past four or five years. The main indicators show that the economy has performed well. Indeed, in many ways it has fared better than the rest of the United Kingdom. Over the past five years, the seasonally adjusted numbers of the unemployed in Great Britain went up by 35 per cent. Over the same period, unemployment in Northern Ireland fell by 6 per cent. The numbers in work in Great Britain fell by 4 per cent., whereas in Northern Ireland the numbers rose by 5 per cent.

Manufacturing performance has been even more impressive. In the United Kingdom as a whole, in the five years to 1993, production went up by only 3 per cent. Northern Ireland manufacturing escaped the worst of the recession and, over the same period, the increase in output was 19 per cent.

The prospects, too, are good. Industry's confidence and its investment intentions are at their highest for many years. Those facts give grounds for reasoned hope. I am not talking about optimism. I deny optimism, which has nothing to do with one's reasoning power, and a lot to do with one's insides. Rational hope is what matters. Rational hope depends on the evidence and one's assessment of it.

On top of those facts, we had excellent news from the industrial development agencies. During the past year, 10 inward investment projects were secured by the Industrial Development Board, which involved the investment of £1.6 million and almost 2,000 new jobs. This year, two major projects have already been announced : Carmen Electronics, from Korea, is creating 257 jobs making car stereos in Dungannon ; and Valence Technology from the United States of America expects to create 660 jobs producing rechargeable batteries at Mallusk, north of Belfast.

It is particularly welcome--I think that the House will agree--that the Carmen project is located in Dungannon. It will give a major boost to the economy of that town. I understand that the sharing of responsibility within the Dungannon council influenced the company to locate there.

On the home industry side, last year the IDB helped local firms with 59 projects to improve their competitiveness. Its marketing assistance helped companies get orders worth more than £100 million. It arranged overseas trade missions, which have already resulted in firm orders worth more than £11 million, with a further £72 million anticipated. Only this week, we heard of yet another major export success with Mivan of Antrim winning a £21.5 million contract from the Royal Thai Air Force for the construction of acccommodation. At the lower end of the scale, the record of the Local Enterprise Development Unit is also one of impressive results. Last year, it assisted a record number of new business start-ups, and achieved a 4 per cent. net rise in employment among its client companies. Such work by Government agencies surely is important, and deserves the recognition and support of all of us who have at heart the economic well-being of Northern Ireland.

Equally deserving of credit is the work of the local councils and the community groups for economic development. Over the past few years, they have complemented the work of the agencies and shown that they, too, have a real and valuable contribution to make. Initiatives such as North West International--formerly Derry Boston Ventures--the Tyrone Economic

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Development Initiative, Down Chicago, and others have led the way by promoting their areas and developing trade links abroad. I am pleased to see that other groups--for example, in Coleraine, Ballymena, Craigavon, Belfast, Lisburn and County Fermanagh--have also been quick to learn the lesson and develop their own initiatives. I want to congratulate and encourage them on their admirable drive. I congratulate also all hon. Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland who have been associated with such initiatives. It would be invidious of me to single out anyone. No one is better placed to advance his constituency's claim, or its suitability for investment, than its Member of Parliament. Many are the instances in which that has been demonstrated.

Nothing is more impressive overseas than when political opponents from Northern Ireland make common cause, as shown by the hon. Members for Belfast, West (Dr. Hendron) and for Belfast, North (Mr. Walker) on their visit to the United States earlier this year.

I believe that all of them regard it as a major strength that we have a highly developed infrastructure. Of course that infrastructure could be better--we look forward to making it better--but it already comprises good roads, efficient modern seaports and airports, and one of the most advanced telecommunications networks in western Europe. All that comes as a very pleasant surprise to those overseas who are contemplating investment in Northern Ireland, as I know from my conversations with them.

In that context, let me mention two recent major developments : first, the opening last month of the new £20 million port at Londonderry, which will enable the north-west to take full advantage of the opportunities that the single European market affords ; secondly, the completion this week of the keystone section of the new railway bridge over the Lagan in Belfast-- an innovation which, together with the new road bridge, will revitalise Belfast's transport system. Those are most heartening developments, full of promise for a more prosperous future.

Other advantages, too, are appreciated by those contemplating investing in Northern Ireland : the commitment and motivation of our work force ; the high educational levels in the Province, which are, by most standards, the best in the United Kingdom ; and--very important--the benefits of the opt- out from the social chapter, which the Prime Minister secured and which Labour would cast away. The underlying theme of our economic development strategy in Northern Ireland is the virtue of competition. The turn-round at Shorts has been remarkable, in spite of the worst downturn in the history of the aerospace industry. Against a background of falling employment in the United Kingdom aerospace industry, Shorts employs more people today that it did when it was privatised in 1989. Prime contractors, such as Boeing, Fokker and Rolls-Royce, have had to cut back on orders because of the recession, yet Shorts continues to secure important contracts. Only last week, it secured an order, worth almost £70 million, to modify aircraft for the United States army. The company also disclosed plans to take a leading role in the design and development of a new business jet. That project alone should provide more than 700 jobs when the aircraft is in full production.

Harland and Wolff also continue to provide employment for some 2, 000 people, and currently has orders

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extending to late 1994. The group is now nosing into profit--a very great achievement, in a short space of time, in an industry which is among those most beset by difficulties in the world.

The most recent privatisation in Northern Ireland, of course, has been the flotation of Northern Ireland Electricity, completed earlier this year. Some 50 per cent. of the total share allocation went to people in Northern Ireland--the employees, pensioners and customers of Northern Ireland Electricity. That demonstrates the confidence of the people of Northern Ireland in the company's future in the private sector. Just as the price of gas in Great Britain has fallen by 20 per cent. in real terms since privatisation, so competition, as it develops, will bring down the price of electricity.

When Shorts was privatised in 1989, the company was using production machinery which now, four years later, is in a museum. The Labour party's policy of opposing privatisation ought to be there too.

Privatisation is about choice, competition and enterprise, service and proper jobs. Everywhere in the world, Governments are following our lead and privatising. Last month, the Labour party in Brighton voted to keep clause 4 of its constitution, committing it to wholesale renationalisation. The Opposition Front-Bench spokesman--the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara)--can tell us today whether Labour will duly renationalise Shorts, Harland and Wolff and Northern Ireland Electricity. The workers, among others, have the right to know.

Of course we continue to need more jobs. Meanwhile, those that we have must be fairly shared. We have the strongest anti-discrimination laws in Europe. There is comprehensive monitoring of work forces. The Fair Employment Commission is securing agreements with employers to undertake affirmative action. Substantial compensation can be awarded to victims of discrimination--and it is. There are strong legal and economic sanctions against defaulting employers.

Those facts show that we are treating the fair employment problem--and there is one--with the utmost seriousness, as we should, and that we are making progress.

We have a better story to tell--

Mr. Roy Beggs (Antrim, East) : We can all concur with the aims and objectives of fair employment, but will the Secretary of State undertake to look at the unreasonable costs--legal costs and the waste of very senior management time--in defending cases that are sometimes not proven? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman seek to ensure that when a company has been taken to court on a case of discrimination that is not proven, compensation is given from Fair Employment Commission funds to compensate for the loss to the company?

Sir Patrick Mayhew : I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman's earlier remarks. There is a heavy downside to the legislation in terms of costs to employers, but it is one which the House has felt it proper to impose, given the very grave background of discrimination in Northern Ireland in the past.

Such provisions have to be operated reasonably. It is absolutely essential that the commission and the tribunal should be independent of the Executive. I think, however,

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that a careful eye needs to be kept on the incidence of cases in which employers are brought virtually to the door of the court, only for the case to be dropped. We must look closely at the extent to which that is happening. I hear complaints about it, but I do not have the full facts and figures at the moment. We must strike a fair balance, always remembering the need for independence on the part of those who administer the jurisdiction.

Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : This is a general problem, which exists not only in connection with fair employment legislation but in connection with equal opportunities legislation. Costs are imposed not only on private employers but on public bodies.

In the case of one school in my constituency, the education authority was left with legal costs of about £40,000 in connection with the defence of a wholly unmeritorious claim that had been supported by the Equal Opportunities Commission. There is surely a case for the commission or the public purse to award costs--not, perhaps, in every case, but in cases of unmeritorious claims. The Secretary of State will appreciate that, with regard to equal opportunities legislation, the special factor that he prayed in aid in his response to my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs) does not apply.

Sir Patrick Mayhew : I understand the strength of feeling on this point. It is notable that such a provision did not commend itself to the House when the legislation was strengthened a few years ago, but it is a point which bears scrutiny.

We have a better story to tell than was the case even a few years ago, and in America, in particular, we are telling it with advantage, especially through our excellent diplomatic posts, to which I pay tribute. Perhaps more valuable than anything, many more people are visiting Northern Ireland and seeing it for themselves.

What of the social scene? In June this year, I was able to announce a £24 million extension of the Making Belfast Work programme ; this takes the total allocation of public funds to £124 million since 1988- -on top of normal departmental spending--and is intended to help the most vulnerable groups in the most disadvantaged areas of Belfast. Those areas are both Catholic and Protestant.

Making Belfast Work meets needs wherever they arise. Our targeting social need programme is the central plank of Government strategy for promoting equality of opportunity and of treatment. It remains our third biggest public expenditure item. We will continue to attack the most deep-rooted problems in the most disadvantaged areas of the Province, by ensuring that assistance is focused where it is most needed.

We cannot hope to be spared all the effects of the worldwide recession, but accurate analysis of needs and the careful alignment of our resulting interventions can relieve the people of Northern Ireland from many adverse legacies and lead them to the enjoyment of more jobs, fairly shared, and a way of life far more worthy of their great qualities. Our economic and our social policies are harnessed in tandem to achieving those very objectives.

Yet there is one influence that pulls with cruel and savage force in the opposite direction. I restate the Government's attitude to terrorism. It will always be met with stern and unyielding resolution, by the Government

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and by the security forces alike. Its total elimination is an overriding objective. The Royal Ulster Constabulary and all the security forces will continue to have all the support they need. I know that their courage and professionalism command the admiration of us all.

This morning, I want to add my tribute to all the civilians who serve the security forces in any capacity. Today I note with especial disgust, as we all must, the brutal, loathsome murder of Mr. John Gibson of Glengormley, whose only crime was to work for a construction company that assists the police and the Army, among other things, to protect themselves against mortars thrown into bases. All our hearts go out to the family of that brave man. Let there be no mistake : the security forces are hitting the terrorists hard. That is evidenced by the charging of 178 so-called loyalists and 105 republican paramilitaries with terrorist offences so far this year. The resolution and commitment of the police and the Army has been translated again and again into successes.

Mr. Clifford Forsythe (Antrim, South) : I join the Secretary of State and the whole House in condemning the murder of Mr. Gibson, who lived in my constituency. We all pass on our sympathy to the whole family circle. This foul murder was carried out by members of the Provisional IRA, who have once again stained their hands with fresh blood as they seek to impose their version of the democratic process on the long-suffering people of Northern Ireland.

Another construction worker has been selected for ritual slaughter as part of the IRA's democratic process--a process which decrees, "If you can't convince or intimidate, you kill". We say to all terrorists that the people of Northern Ireland will not be intimidated, and will fight against terrorism until we have peace and stability there.

Sir Patrick Mayhew : The hon. Gentleman speaks with heartfelt eloquence, and no further words of mine are necessary, save to say how warmly that I endorse them.

I was mentioning the record of the security forces this year in bringing to justice terrorists from either side of the community. Examples of their successes in other fields include the interception of 3,000 lb of explosives

Mr. Graham Riddick (Colne Valley) : Is it not also important that we bring to justice those people who have escaped to a foreign country? Does my right hon. and learned Friend share my disgust that an hon. Member is prepared to go to a foreign country to help a convicted terrorist to escape from British justice? Does not he agree that the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) will have provided comfort and succour to Noraid, the IRA's paymasters in America, on his recent visit there

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse) : Order. Hon. Members will recall that, only a short while ago, Madam Speaker asked for speeches to be kept short because many hon. Members wished to speak. If we are to continue with long interventions, some hon. Members will miss out.

Mr. Riddick : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the Leader of the Opposition should withdraw the Labour Whip from the hon. Member for Brent, East?

Sir Patrick Mayhew : I have noticed with dismay some of the representations that have been attributed to the hon.

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Gentleman. I do not wish to say more about the necessary proceedings which are under way for the extradition of somebody who is serving a life sentence in the United States for a vile offence.

Mr. Ken Livingstone (Brent, East) : Would the Secretary of State tell us which Minister authorised and instructed Government officials-- civil servants--appearing on behalf of the Government in a court in America to refuse to answer questions under oath on 31 occasions?

Sir Patrick Mayhew : I am not commenting further on the extradition proceedings. I have described the type of offence of which Mr. Smyth has been convicted and for which he is serving a life sentence, and I wish to say nothing about those proceedings.

Examples of the successes of the security forces include the interception of 3,000 lb of explosives near Portadown in August, the recovery of large quantities of arms explosives and ammunition in north Belfast in September, and the recovery of 70 lb of home-made explosives, firearms, mini-pipe bombs and a dozen arrests, all on the same day in October. In the past few days, the police and the Army have made important arrests and have recovered arms and explosives. There are many other examples.

Some such successes cannot, by their nature, be publicly acknowledged, but they play a vital role in deterring and defeating paramilitary gangsterism. The Chief Constable was right to remind the public in the past month that mass murder and massive destruction have been avoided by the cumulative seizure this year of32,500 lb of bomb-making material, 130 weapons and 10,000 rounds of ammunition. In addition, the Gardai have made a number of recent significant finds of arms, explosives and ammunition on its side of the Border. We have close collaboration with the Gardai, for which I am most grateful. Its finds include a large quantity of home-made explosives, with weapons and a rocket launcher in County Donegal in August, a substantial quantity of weapons in a training camp for terrorists in County Louth in September, and four separate finds of weapons, explosives and ammunition in as many days, also in County Louth in October.

But the police need help. It is the responsibility of every one of us, at every post and in every home in Northern Ireland, to contribute to the defeat of terrorism. The security forces stand between--

Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) : Will the Secretary of State give way?

Sir Patrick Mayhew : In a second.

The security forces stand between decent, law-abiding people in the province and the ghastly alternative offered by the killers and bombers. I know the fear of intimidation and I know the strength of traditional attitudes, but let the true nature of terrorists never be forgotten.

Mr. Maginnis : Why refer only to the work of the RUC and the Garda Siochana? None of us questions the integrity of those two constabularies, and we are grateful for the work they do. Is it not rather the ambivalence and flirtation--at one remove, we are told--with Gerry Adams and hence with the IRA, the irridentist territorial claim, the lack of sincerity over extradition, pompous platitudes and generalisations, and the double-speak of the Irish Republic

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Government, which hinder normal relationships between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland, and a more speedy resolution to the terrorism that besets us?

Sir Patrick Mayhew : I cannot endorse that condemnation. From my experience over some 18 months, I believe that there is no daylight whatever between the two Governments in their commitment to the defeat and elimination of terrorism.

Mr. Maginnis : Are the Governments supporting extradition?

Sir Patrick Mayhew : I understand that, in a short space of time, the necessary Bill will come forward. [Laughter.] I know that the hon. Gentleman's impatience over the question of extradition is one which I have shared. I have been able to speak with the Attorney-General in the south, and I know the nature of the problem that has confronted him. It is a technical one, and I confidently expect the Bill to come forward in the near future.

I was suggesting to the House that the true nature of terrorists should never be forgotten. There is no disguising their heartless brutality, and no justifying it by referring to their purpose. Those people, for example, lure a man out of his home by driving a familiar truck belonging to his friend into his driveway, shoot him dead, leave his children to discover their father and his seven-year-old son to telephone the police, while the children wait beside their father for the police to arrive. These are the people who bring a mother to the doorstep of her home, shoot her and leave her to die in front of her screaming children. These are the people who bomb town centres, homes, shops, schools, churches and hospitals, and call them economic targets. These are the people who gun down men with families while they are on their way to work, or while they are playing pool or walking with their friends. These people care nothing for the 100 children playing in an adventure park who wereeBishop Edward Daly of Derry has tellingly said of the terrorists that by their deeds shall we know them. I believe that to these people--each of them--the whole House says, "You will make by these means not one inch of progress towards your political objectives in this democracy."

In this country, we are used to defending democracy and the rule of law. The price is always high, and always worth paying. We shall defend them in Northern Ireland, if necessary at infinite length. We shall, if necessary, go on and on. We say to the terrorists, "The choice for the future, for yourselves and for your suffering families, is yours and yours alone."

At the heart of our policy is our fundamental commitment to defending the democratic rights of the people of Northern Ireland in regard to their future in the Union. We shall always stand behind their democratic wishes.

Here, we must note the latest Labour think piece. It builds on the earlier options for a Labour Government. On page 111, we read : "We reply first of all"--

to criticisms--

"that Northern Ireland, at present, is not a legitimate unit of democratic decision-making and rests on coercion."

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Is that an opinion which is held officially by the Labour party? I hope that we shall hear.

It is only fair to say that there is a rather engaging passage on page 3 :

"Those familiar with Northern Ireland need not read chapter 2." If the principal recommendation is based on the assertion that I have just read, readers familiar with Northern Ireland need read neither chapter 1 nor chapter 3 through to the end.

However, there is an undeniable need for political institutions in Northern Ireland that all parts of the community could support and in which they could all have greater confidence. With that in mind, the Government have set themselves to help the people of Northern Ireland to secure a comprehensive political accommodation, if possible extending to all the political relationships within Northern Ireland, to the North and the South, and between the peoples of these islands. We are determined to persevere with that. I am grateful for the strong support of the Irish Government in that endeavour. Many people have been quick to write off the process. I do not agree with them. No responsible person could be happy with the status quo. The overwhelming majority of people in Northern Ireland want to see the problems resolved, want the uncertainties put behind them and want to see the politicians talk. I hear that constantly in my contacts throughout Northern Ireland, from people in the street, in the churches, from the business community and in people's homes. After I visited Ballymena a fortnight or so ago--I am sorry that the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), in whose constituency Ballymena is situated, is not present--the headline in the Ballymena Times, reporting on my visit, was :

"Ballymena tells Mayhew--start the talks again."

The Opsahl commission was established to encourage a public debate. It undertook the unique and valuable task of canvassing the views of a wide range of people and organisations in Northern Ireland. It suggests in its report that if the talks fail, the Government, in consultation with the Irish Government, should establish a commission to study the situation and to make recommendations for further consultation with the political parties and, if necessary, directly with the people of Northern Ireland. But the talks have not failed. The process of dialogue is very much alive, and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is continuing his exploratory discussions with the parties. They have to be discreet and private ; they cannot be out in the open if they are to have a chance of success. The opinion poll on the commission's report showed that a majority questioned in Northern Ireland believed in the importance of the talks, and we shall continue to promote them in every practical way.

For our part, we certainly share the desire to see greater responsibility returned to Northern Ireland's own locally elected representatives. Incidentally, that desire is enshrined in the Anglo-Irish Agreement. However, as the report recognises, for any new structures to be both fair and workable, they must command the widest possible support and allegiance in Northern Ireland. That means that other relationships must also be addressed. The best forum for that is one that involves the main constitutional parties and the two Governments.

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Alas, the commission also suggested that the Government should open informal channels of communication with Sinn Fein to test its commitment to the constitutional process without resort to the justification of violence, and that they should persuade the IRA to move towards the de-escalation of violence and, eventually, a ceasefire. We want an end to violence as much as anyone does, and perhaps more than some do.

The Government's position on the matter is quite clear, Sinn Fein must end the violence and demonstrate its commitment to democratic constitutional politics. As I have said before, and as the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) said only last week, it could then begin to earn a place at any future talks about the future of Northern Ireland.

Until then, there should be no doubt that the Government will not conduct talks or negotiations with anyone who perpetrates, threatens or supports the use of violence for political ends. Let there be just one message from these people : perpetrating and justifying violence are over for ever. Then, after due verification, a new chapter could unfold.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : Will the Secretary of State give way?

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