House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Oct 1993

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confirms what my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) said in America about the prospects for justice. Civil liberties have been denied in Britain. The security services have been engaged in a policy of disinformation in Northern Ireland. I have a copy of a leaflet published by the Northern Ireland security services, allegedly written by Denis Healey and myself, calling for a world revolution. That was produced by public money and it was all part of the Psyops disinformation programme, which has now come to light. The ban on members of Sinn Fein being allowed to broadcast is an absolute denial of every principle of democratic government, the denial of which we have condemned in other countries. The House must reconsider that matter.

I was a member of the Cabinet in 1969, nearly 25 years ago, when the troops were sent into Northern Ireland and I remember vividly that we were told that would solve the problem. I should like to put on record what has happened in those 25 years. There have been 33,000 shootings, 16,000 explosions, incendiaries and defusions, 6,000 claims for damage to property, 3,000 people, civilian and military, killed and 33,000 people, civilian and military, injured. Some 15,000 people have been charged with terrorist offences and 7,000 people have been detained under the Prevention of Terrorism Acts. I asked the House of Commons research department to calculate the total cost of the emergency and, at current prices, the cost of the war has been £14.5 billion.

We should look at what lies behind all those figures--not at the alleged differences between Catholics and Protestants--and at conditions of life. Unemployment in Northern Ireland, according to figures given out last March, stands at 14.6 per cent. compared with 10.6 per cent. in the United Kingdom. One in five people in the Province live on income support or state benefit--21 per cent. of the population compared with 14 per cent. in England. Those statistics must be put on the record when we consider what the Secretary of State said today. He painted quite a different picture.

It is also important to put on the record the opinion, as far as it can be determined, of the people of Britain on the situation in Northern Ireland. Many opinion polls have been taken and a recent one by MORI found that 61 per cent. of people in Britain favour the withdrawal of troops from Northern Ireland. Of those, the majority favour a withdrawal in up to four years. Only 17 per cent. think that British troops have helped the situation in Northern Ireland, while 73 per cent. believe that they have made no difference or have made the situation worse. Some 65 per cent. believe that British politicians--that is us--are not doing enough to solve the problem, 78 per cent. support talks with all parties from the north and south and 51 per cent. support talks including, specifically, members of Sinn Fein.

The House must take those facts into consideration. We must also accept that all the policies that have been followed by successive Governments have failed--failed if the test is that there should be peace in Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland. Partition has failed, Stormont has failed, direct rule has failed, internment without trial has failed, the prevention of terrorism Acts have failed, the Diplock courts--I have seen them in operation--have

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failed, the supergrass trials have failed, the use of CS gas has failed, strip searching has failed and the Anglo- Irish Agreement has failed. I voted against that agreement, in unusual company, because I felt that it was a deception practised upon the Irish people. None of those measures has ended the violence and therefore we must explore other ways in which to resolve the problem. In as non-controversial way as I can, I should like to put to the House some of the obstacles that must be overcome.

There is distrust between the communities. I have never accepted that that is entirely due to religious belief. I believe that it is largely due to discrimination in employment. No one can deny that that is a huge problem in Northern Ireland. Discrimination still exists, and the Secretary of State has said that he is dealing with it.

Some loyalists are deeply distrustful of the Government because they believe--I think that they are right--that if the Government could find a way, they would like to be out of Northern Ireland. The Anglo-Irish Agreement was thought to be the shoehorn that would gradually ease the responsibilities of the British Government. There is distrust between Dublin and London because those in Dublin do not think that people in the north get a fair trial. The British people are distrustful of the policy towards Northern Ireland because most of them want Britain to get out of Northern Ireland, sometimes for the wrong reasons.

The tragedy is that the British Parliament and its people are not interested in Northern Ireland. The people in the north know that. If there is a crisis, it is too dangerous to discuss it and if there is no crisis the attitude is : why bother to discuss it? The loyalist connection is therefore breaking down.

If we want peace, we must have talks and therefore I greatly welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) has been doing with the president of Sinn Fein. Those talks have also been welcomed by the Dublin Government, but I heard the Secretary of State say on radio that those talks should cease. I believe that most people think that those talks are right.

I welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) said today when he outlined the long-term prospective of Labour policy, because in 1921 the Labour party opposed the partition at a special conference. It also called for an all-Irish constitution, the safeguarding of minority views and the withdrawal of troops. I have always held those beliefs. I am sorry that the Government have decided not to support the talks between my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and Sinn Fein. I have, however, no knowledge of them.

The problem, allegedly, is that we cannot talk with Sinn Fein because of terrorism. If we examine that argument against a proper historical perspective it does not stand up to a moment's examination. Mrs. Thatcher called Nelson Mandela a terrorist, but I met him in the House of Commons again when he was over in the summer. Any number of people have begun as terrorists and ended up in Buckingham palace. Nehru, Gandhi, Kenyatta, Cheddi Jagan--who is to visit Britain shortly--were all held in British prisons. I was in Cyprus at the weekend and I can recall when Archbishop Makarios was in a British prison. The idea that one cannot talk to people because behind them are people who practise violence is not a valid argument.

What is David Owen doing in the former Yugoslavia? He is talking to people associated with violence, but he and

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the United Nations feel that the problem has to be resolved through discussion. He is right. The worst terrorists in the world are, of course, Governments, but I will not go into that now.

I must confess to the House that it is not for any British politician to say how the people in the island of Ireland should resolve their difficulties. I have long held the view that the problem is that we should not be there. If I am allowed a personal reference, my grandfather was elected in 1892 as a home rule candidate--

Rev. William McCrea : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Benn : I am trying to be brief and to put my case as quietly as I can.

he 1880s, when the London county council asked for control of the police, the Home Secretary said that, unlike Birmingham, the LCC could not take control of the police because of Irish terrorism. Northern Ireland was set up by violence. It was the bullet and not the ballot that partitioned it. It was achieved by the Black and Tans. Everyone knows that it is an artificial state created by British military force. It is not possible for the British Parliament to bring about Irish unity, but it is for us--

Rev. William McCrea : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Benn : I will give way in a moment, but I am conscious of the fact that many other hon. Members have much to contribute, notably, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle. One cannot enforce Irish unity, but the way forward is through the termination of British jurisdiction.

Rev. William McCrea : Does the right hon. Gentleman really believe that it is the presence of troops on the streets of Belfast and Northern Ireland that keeps the vast majority of people within the Union? Does he really believe that if the British troops were to pull out tomorrow the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland would decide that they wanted their future to be founded within a united Ireland? If he does believe that, he knows little of the reality of the truth.

Mr. Benn : I am saying that the British troops in Northern Ireland have not solved the problem of violence and that it is not for the British Government to bring about Irish unity but for the Irish people to decide the relationship that they have with each other. Any sensible person knows- -it has been admitted by a number of people now--that there can be no peace in Northern Ireland without peace between the communities. And there is distrust. There can be no relationship between the north and the south other than on a base of trust. To achieve that we must have talks with everybody and make it clear that Britain does not intend to remain and claim jurisdiction. A bigger peace dividend is to be gained in Northern Ireland and the Republic than in any other part of the world. It is a highly militarised island, north and south, and that peace dividend should be used to resolve the social problem.

The United Nations has a role in getting the talks going. Indeed, during a Cabinet discussion in 1969, Dublin

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suggested using the United Nations. I wrote to the

Secretary-General the other day suggesting that an observer should go. I have invited the president of Sinn Fein to come to the House of Commons to address a meeting.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : Shame.

Mr. Benn : The hon. Gentleman says "Shame", but if the Government will not allow talks, Parliament has a responsibility. As a Member for Chesterfield, I have a responsibility because soldiers from Chesterfield are in Northern Ireland and our people are in danger. I have had a word with Madam Speaker and there is no obstacle to the president of Sinn Fein coming here to address Members of Parliament. As his words cannot be broadcast, Parliament has a duty to hear him. By now, the Secretary of State has probably received my letter saying that I hope that he will not create obstacles to our hearing the president of Sinn Fein--a former Member of the House--address Members of Parliament and the Lobby.

We have a duty to hear the argument. We were told that publicity was the oxygen of terrorism. Information is the oxygen of democracy and we must be able to hear directly what the president of Sinn Fein and others say, because we have already heard our side.

Mr. Robathan : Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although the president of Sinn Fein had a seat in the House for eight or nine years, he never once came to the House during that time? His contempt for the democratic process was shown by his failure to come to the House to express his opinion and by his support for terrorism in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Benn : To take his seat, the president of Sinn Fein had to take an oath of allegiance to the Crown, which he could not in conscience do. Why should the Crown be used to deny his constituency its Member of Parliament's right to sit here? The first women Member for Parliament, Countess Markievicz, to whom I shall shortly put up a plaque, was in prison when she was arrested. She could not as a Sinn Fein Member take her seat because unless a Member swears an oath of allegiance to the Crown he or she cannot sit in the House. Charles Bradlaugh was also kept outside for many years, but I will not go into that.

It was the cold war that retained American support for British policy in Northern Ireland, for strategic reasons. The Pentagon did not want an independent neutral Ireland between themselves and the red army. The cold war is now over. President Clinton, who has no love for the present Government because they tried to search Home Office files to prevent his election, has now suggested that he may send an observer. I believe that, before the end of the century, Britain will be out of Northern Ireland. Much emphasis has been placed on articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, but what about the articles in our own Government of Ireland Act 1920, which makes our claim?

If we are to get out in circumstances of peace and by negotiation, the talks--notably those launched by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle--must be authorised and encouraged. As Churchill said--I heard him say it--

"The only alternative to war, war is jaw, jaw."

We must talk. The answer to violence is discussion, out of which can come a solution that is quite different from the ones put forward so unsuccessfully by successive

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Secretaries of State responsible for Northern Ireland. I have heard them for 43 years and they are no more credible today than they were when I heard them in the past.

12.4 pm

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : I am sure that the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) will forgive me if I do not follow him but try instead to answer some of the things that are so blatantly wrong and false. The ignorance that he has shown about these matters is deplorable.

We in Northern Ireland have heard the voice of the IRA Sinn Fein and its leader. I have seen the result of his voice ; in Roman Catholics and Protestants in my constituency who mourn their loved ones, while Gerry Adams, the IRA Sinn Fein leader, puts out statements justifying those acts of murder. Yet we are told that we need to listen to him. We have listened to him. We have seen him in action. We have heard, no later than last weekend, what his policies really are. He is not for peace ; peace is not the prerequisite first of all that we should establish. He wants to get a political agreement that will suit him. Unless the British Government are prepared to say that they will consent, that the right of self- determination rests with the whole of the Irish people, he will not give peace.

The Anglo-Irish Agreement, which was much vaunted by the SDLP and hailed as the structure through which we could get an agreement for the people--not "peoples"--of Northern Ireland makes it clear. That entity "the people of Northern Ireland" was supposed to be recognised by Dublin and the SDLP, who were coaching them to get the agreement, said that they alone had the right of self-determination about the future of the Province. Now we are told by Albert Reynolds that he is not reneging on the agreement but thinks that the other proposal will be of great benefit.

The House needs to realise just how serious the situation is. The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) was telling us all the things that had failed. But look at Dublin. Dublin has failed. What has Dublin succeeded in doing? It destroyed 80 per cent. of the Protestant population who lived there when the boundary was drawn, that Protestant population was 10 per cent. of the total population of the 26 counties. Today, there is little over 2 per cent. of Protestants left.

As bad as the Protestants are painted in the North of Ireland, the figures show that the Roman Catholic population is increasing in Northern Ireland. We have not been guilty of the ethnic cleansing policy, but the South of Ireland has. Those are the facts of the situation. Dublin has failed. It has been suggested that if British troops were pulled out--or those from other parts of the United Kingdom--in some way there would be a change of opinion ; the loyalty of the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland who vote unionist with a small U, whether they be Roman Catholic or Protestant, do not desire and will not have a united Ireland. That is a fact. There is no use in anyone telling the House that there is some way of peace if we take away the troops. I was delayed this morning as, unfortunately, the plane did not take off until 1 hours after departure time, but I did not see a single soldier. It is not a question of the British Army holding the people of Northern Ireland to ransom, telling

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them, "You are part of the United Kingdom and we will keep you part of the United Kingdom." We are talking about the will of the people of Northern Ireland, as expressed over and over again. The House must face that fact.

There are Roman Catholics who vote unionist--a fact which can be seen more clearly in elections conducted under a system of proportional representation. In PR elections, one can see the way in which people vote. It is hardly likely that the people voting for John Hume are Protestants in the main, just as it is hardly likely that the people voting for me are Roman Catholics in the main. But I have stood at boxes in the European elections in which not hundreds but thousands of voters have chosen John Hume's name as their first preference on the paper and my name as their second.

Let us be clear that there are Roman Catholics who are happy with and support the Union. Even the prominent priest in Dungannon said some time ago that the Roman Catholic population as a whole could not be branded as wanting a united Ireland. If my memory serves me right, he put the number of Roman Catholics who believed in and would support the Union at some 20 per cent.

The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) put his finger on the fundamentals. I do not agree with the four priorities outlined by the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor). Rather, I agree with the preferences expressed by the hon. Member for Basingstoke. The first thing that needs to be done to save the situation is for the Government to come back and declare their defence and maintenance of the sovereign position of Northern Ireland within this United Kingdom.

Mr. Terry Dicks (Hayes and Harlington) : If the Province is to stay part of this country, is it not important that we should finish with the Anglo-Irish Agreement altogether? We do not want a foreign Government having a say in what we do in our own country.

Rev. Ian Paisley : I was rather surprised that that was not mentioned by the Unionist spokesman. The right hon. Gentleman made no mention of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

Anything that interferes with the sovereign right of the people of Northern Ireland to remain part of this United Kingdom must be dealt with as a first priority. The people of Northern Ireland have been undermined in this matter. If the Government's policy is changing, I welcome that--although actions will speak louder than words. In the past, they have said, "We will stay for as long as the majority wish it, and we will go as soon as possible." That has been the Government's attitude, and that is what they practise. I shall not rehearse the statements made by the Secretary of State, which are fresh in the memory of all people of Northern Ireland.

The constitutional position of Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom has been undermined. As long as that remains the case, oxygen is supplied to the terrorists, who say, "Look, we are doing well." Conor Cruise O'Brien--who is not on the same political wavelength as I am-- has made it absolutely clear that they are saying in Dublin, "Another push and we will get exactly what we want." He also said, I think, that the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) helped to get him removed from the Dail, and much else besides.

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All I can say to the House today is that, if we do not defend that pillar, there will be continuing trouble. The IRA knows today that it cannot win the war. The talks came when there was adverse publicity about the IRA's monstrous killings and about the monstrous killings of its own people. As the hon. Member for Foyle pointed out in a television interview, the IRA was killing more Roman Catholics at a certain time than anyone else, so there was a terrible and awful repulsion growing in the hearts of the community.

Suddenly, the hon. Member for Foyle went into conference with the IRA-Sinn Fein leader. That alone seemed strange to the Unionist population. the hon. Gentleman had made forthright statements, but suddenly he was having talks. Various voices of opposition were heard, even in his own party.

The first statement that came out of the meeting was that the two had agreed that self-determination was the right of the Irish people as a whole. If there was a vote in the whole of Ireland of what to do with Northern Ireland, we would have a united Ireland, because--

Mr. John Hume (Foyle) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Rev. Ian Paisley : I have little time, but I will give way in a moment.

If that vote occurred, Northern Ireland would be finished. It would be asking Northern Ireland to commit political suicide. We cannot do that. The Northern Ireland people refuse to do that, and will not give up their inalienable right of self-determination. It is not something which they alone said was theirs--we are continually told that the Northern Ireland of today was made up by Britain and by the people of Northern Ireland.

The Dail Eireann accepted and ratified the territory of Northern Ireland. The House of Commons and the British Government of the day ratified the territory, the Stormont Parliament ratified it, and it was lodged at the League of Nations. It was not some fanciful state with which the three parties had nothing to do. The South of Ireland had everything to do with determining the territory, so did the North and so did Britain : it was a tripartite agreement.

That territorial treaty was torn in shreds when the 1937 constitution was brought in, by the way. De Valera, who was against the treaty at the time, and was really a Provo in his own country, carrying out a civil war and shooting his own fellows, came back into politics and devised the present constitution. That constitution sought to reverse what had already been agreed by introducing articles 2 and 3 of the Republic's constitution.

I heard the hon. Member for Foyle telling the world that it is no longer a territorial dispute. Well, if it is not, why did his party come to the talks and tell us that articles 2 and 3 must be kept?

Mr. Hume : We did not.

Rev. Ian Paisley : You certainly did.

Why did the Northern Ireland spokesman of the Labour party go to Cork to say that we must retain articles 2 and 3, where he was rebuked by one of the socialist leaders in the South of Ireland for daring to go there and say it?

Why have the present Dublin Government, including Mr. Spring, the leader of the Labour party, reversed and done a somersault? We read at the talks what their Hansard reported Mr. Spring as saying about articles 2 and 3. The

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Dublin Government now say, "They must hold on to articles 2 and 3. They will be a bargaining counter." We are not having any bargaining about articles 2 and 3. They are obnoxious and lay an axe at the very root of the Ulster tree. We repudiate them. Until the Southern Government become a democracy and give up that claim, which is immoral, illegal and criminal, and puts oxygen into the terrorists, the claim must be dealt with.

All I have heard is, "Oh yes, that matter can be on the table." The very Union is now to be on the table as well. We heard the right hon. Member for Chesterfield talk about the Government of Ireland Act 1920. The only thing that is left of the 1920 Act is the definition of the six counties. It has been carried forward in other pieces of legislation. As a Unionist, I will be at no table talking about the Union.

When the original talks were called, the primacy of stage 1, as my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke said today, was that it was established that Dublin had no say in the internal affairs of Northern Ireland, and that the constitutional parties, the people at the table, and the British Government who presided at the stage 1 talks were the only people who could have any say.

Yet when we got to the talks, we saw that that was not the attitude of the Social Democratic and Labour party. Earlier today, hon. Members asked why we could not establish what the majority of people wanted. The majority of parties at stage 1 got a basis, a structure and a formula.

Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) : All the parties?

Rev. Ian Paisley : All the parties in the committee.The representatives agreed with the formula, but then their leader came and said that they could not go forward in that way. The Secretary of State made the statement that the British Government saw no difficulty in implementing the formula.

Rev. William McCrea : Does my hon. Friend agree that the real reason behind the veto by the leader of the SDLP was that he was not interested in an agreement within Northern Ireland? He wants the matter to be dealt with in a European or in a united Ireland context. He did not want political progress, although that had been agreed to by SDLP members on the committee when the decision was taken. It was vetoed by the SDLP leadership, proving that they are not interested in an internal settlement in Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom.

Rev. Ian Paisley : Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. We must realise the primacy of the matter--that we must first deal with the internal structures within Northern Ireland. It is within those structures that talks can take place with the Dublin Government, and only when the Ulster people in their own structures can talk to the Dublin Government not as inferiors, but as equals, dealing with both parts of Ireland, can we come to an agreement between both parts of Ireland.

The right hon. Member for Chesterfield was right to say that there is great disillusionment among the people of Northern Ireland, and that they do not trust the British Government. Why should they, after the way that they have been treated by those deals? Any politician who meets the people of Northern Ireland must realise just how distressed and alienated they are.

The establishment of stage one should come first, and that should be settled without any interference from the Dublin Government. The question should be put to the

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people of Northern Ireland--not to the people of the Irish Republic--in a referendum that is outside party politics. A referendum would allow everybody to say how they wanted to be governed. In that way, we would find out what the people of Northern Ireland want. The argument has been put to me by the people of Northern Ireland for years, and I have repeated it in the House. If the people of Northern Ireland are told that they have the final say in their destiny and whether they want to be in the United Kingdom or not, surely in a lesser way they should have their democratic say in how they are to be governed internally.

Mr. Beggs : Will the hon. Gentleman confirm for the record that while the loyalist community have been extremely suspicious of the way in which Conservative Governments and successive administrators in Northern Ireland have treated the majority community, they are no more enamoured, and are more suspicious, of the proposals that the Labour party would like to implement?

Rev. Ian Paisley : Even good British Labour supporters and members of the trade union movement to whom I have spoken are amazed that Labour Members are talking about having the army of the Republic on the Falls road and the British Army on the Shankill road, and saying that that is a recipe for peace. I would think that the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Dr. Hendron) has enough horse sense to admit that that would be the greatest recipe for a war to the death. There are stupid people who, at a time of tension, are telling us that peace will be found in those ways. There can be no way forward under the McNamara blueprint. Talk of joint sovereignty, talk of British and Irish troops or troops from the United Nations Organisation becoming involved leads to far greater tension in the province.

Mr. Roger Stott (Wigan) : For the record, I wish to make it clear and unequivocal that the document to which the hon. Gentleman has referred is the intellectual property of its authors. It is not the property of the British Labour party.

Rev. Ian Paisley : I was commenting not on the McNamara document, but rather on the original document of which I have a copy. The original document was circulated, and I had a discussion with the leader of the hon. Gentleman's party in the House about it. Let us not be fooled. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) and I met the Leader of the Opposition and talked about the document. He explained that the document had been circulated for information. That is the document that I am talking about. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), who leads for the Labour party, approved of and accepted the original document, and it was his document in that sense.

There can be no future as long as the Anglo-Irish Agreement stays in place. I do not know whether it is so, but I was told today that an Anglo-Irish conference is to be convened in Stormont on Wednesday. If that is so, the Government should think again.

To hold an Anglo-Irish conference meeting in Northern Ireland at this time would be not only highly insensitive but could provoke a reaction which would be horrible to

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contemplate. [ Hon Members :-- "That is a threat."] It is not a threat. When the leader of Sinn Fein has said that he will not declare any peace until the people of Northern Ireland are surrendered and their rights are surrendered, it ill becomes the hon. Member for Foyle to say that we are making threats.

We had better face up to the facts. The situation in Northern Ireland is graver than I have ever seen. I challenge any hon. Member to challenge that statement. I talked to a prominent Roman Catholic barrister this week. He said to me, "Ian, I do not often agree with you, but I agree with you now. We never had a situation in our community as we have at the present moment." It is a fact. Anything that will instil more fear in any section of the community should be guarded against.

Anglo-Irish Agreement conference meetings have been held in London and Dublin. It would be unhelpful to hold one in Northern Ireland. The conference could well meet in London or Dublin. Why are we bringing those members from the Irish Republic on to Ulster's soil at this time, as if to say that they have an inalienable right to be there? Unless that is dealt with, we shall not move forward to any reconciliation or peace.

Rev. William McCrea : Before my hon. Friend finishes his speech, will he join me in abhorring the awful tragedy last night of the dastardly murder of a director of a firm in my constituency? He was a man whose only crime was that he desired to be an honest worker instead of a lazy loafer of a republican. Does my hon. Friend agree that the truth of the matter is that we saw last night in the murder of another innocent Protestant worker the reality of the threat that Sinn Fein holds over the people of Northern Ireland?

It ill becomes the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party to bring Gerry Adams, whose hands are stained with the blood of the people of Northern Ireland, into some kind of credibility, so that people now call him "Mr. Adams". It ill becomes any Member of Parliament to deal with Gerry Adams, because he has been and still is a terrorist at heart.

Rev. Ian Paisley : I know how my hon. Friend feels. I deplore all murders. I certainly deplore a murder for which the only excuse is that the victim was in a building contract to take part in rebuilding bombed police stations and building places where members of the British Army can sleep, eat and work. For that crime, he was brutally murdered. That man had a great charitable record. He devoted his whole life to charities.

On the other side, there have been the same vicious, devilish and diabolical murders. It is a tragedy of tragedies that such murders take place in our Province, but they will continue until we grasp the nettle. The nettle needs to be grasped. I hope that the Government will grasp the nettle--for the Union and against the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

People are saying, "Oh, but give peace a chance." It is not peace that is proposed : it is surrender. Then the terms under which we live will be dictated. Our fellow Protestants in the South of Ireland agreed to that. Where are they today? Practically eliminated. 12.33 pm

Mr. John Hume (Foyle) : The first point that ought to be made is clear. The murder that has just been condemned had already been unanimously condemned across the House before the hon. Members for Antrim, North (Rev.

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Ian Paisley) and for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea) arrived. If what is happening on our streets were happening on the streets of any part of England, Scotland or Wales, the House would be packed to the doors today. Yet we are told repeatedly that we are an integral part of the United Kingdom.

The Prime Minister and all the Government would be sitting there. Indeed in any part of the world today where there is a similar conflict, if a debate were taking place in that country's Parliament the Parliament would be packed. The emptiness of the Chamber tells me everything about the real attitude towards our problem. It tells the same story to the Unionist people. At the end of the day, the Unionist people will find out, as I have often told them, that the only people they can rely on are themselves-- their numbers, their strength and their convictions. As we have said repeatedly, we cannot solve the problem without them because the problem of a divided people can be solved only by agreement.

We all know of the terrible tragedies that we have experienced during the past 20 years, but we also know that every attempt until now, as the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) said, has failed to solve the problem. Therefore, there is time for a lot of thinking to be done on all sides, and especially--it is simplistic to say so, but it is true and I say it often--because we are where we are as a result of our past attitudes. Our past attitudes have brought us to where we are. In fact, at times our respect for the past in the North of Ireland paralyses our attitude to the future. If we are not prepared to re-examine our past attitudes we shall stay where we are, in the present conflict situation. Everyone who is responsible has to re-examine their attitudes--the Government, who bear total responsibility for the situation in Northern Ireland, the Unionist people and the nationalist people.

As I have often said, the Unionist people's objective, which is often restated, is that they want to preserve and protect their identity and way of life. That is a legitimate objective, with which nobody can quarrel. I do not quarrel with it. Difference is normal in every country in the world. There is no country in the world that is stable if it is based on total uniformity. It is stable only if it is based on respect for difference and diversity. That is what we have to learn. The problem is that the Unionists do not trust us when we say that. They do not seem to understand that, when I say that, my electorate hear my saying that and have to support or not support what I am saying, and they have given strong support to that approach.

I am not telling the Unionists to change their objective of protecting their identity : I am telling them to take a hard look at their methods. Let us remember that from 1921 until the early 1970s Northern Ireland was governed as a one-party state, run by the Official Unionist party. That party left it in the mess that it is in, so they should not give us too many lectures. Their leading Prime Minister, Lord Brookeborough, boasted that he never employed a Roman Catholic in his life. The method that the Unionists have consistently used to protect their identity--given my understanding that the basis of what appears to be their fear is that they will be subsumed into an Ireland into which they do not want to be subsumed --has been to hold all power in their hands and exclude everyone else. That is a mind set which exists everywhere in the world where there is conflict, if one takes a look around. That is also the Afrikaner mind. That approach will never solve any problems in a divided society--it can only lead to conflict.

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l come to my discussions with Mr. Adams in a few moments, but listening to some hon. Members' comments on those talks I have neverheard such hypocrisy in my life. I have made clear their purpose--thetotal cessation of violence. I and my party have taken a stand against that violence for the past 20 years and we, and our homes, have been attacked on many occasions. Now I he Rev. Ian Paisley : No

Mr. Hume : You have never talked to a paramilitary organisation? You have never heard of the Ulster Protestant--

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) must remember that he is addressing me.

Mr. Hume : Has the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) never talked to a paramilitary organisation?

Rev. Ian Paisley : No illegal organisation.

Mr. Hume : Has he ever visited the offices of the Ulster Defence Association in Belfast? Has he ever heard of the Ulster Protestant Volunteers, who were the first people to start violence during the present troubles--the bombing of the Silent valley, the bombing in Ballyshannon and the first killing of a policeman in the Shankill road, constable Arbuckle? What about the third force, and marching on hillsides with berets? What about eulogies for dead leaders of the UDA? Come on, do not be hypocritical when you are telling me about talking--

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