House of Commons Hansard Debates for 29 Oct 1993

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of whom it has been said that we wish to include them. For their sake, we shall not list exhastively lest we miss out some. The discretion will be available widely to include all who can make any kind of case, with an appeal.

Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) : The right hon. Gentleman knows that he is on the most difficult part of his brief. He knows that it would have been possible to say that the compensation measure should apply to all Church of England clergymen--full stop. We did not need an exhaustive list because that heading would have covered all of them. Hon. Members are rightly worried that some may not be covered because they will have to argue their case for compensation rather than, like others, gaining it by right.

Mr. Alison : The hon. Gentleman speaks of compensation. We are not talking about a compensation package. We are talking about arrangements to help in conditions of financial hardship and difficulty. It is not a compensation measure in the sense that that might arise in secular contracts and conditions of employment precisely because there are so many people who do not have such contracts and conditions of employment in the Church of England. The hon. Gentleman's shorthand formula would definitely leave out some people who are likely to apply for compensation under clause 5--some of the people whom my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Miss Widdecombe) mentioned in her off-the-cuff recitation of possible beneficiaries. We cannot be exhaustive in a prescribed schedule 1 list.

Mr. Roger Evans (Monmouth) : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is unsatisfactory, as a matter of legislative practice, to have a clause that gives a general discretion to make payments to office holders, employees or members of religious communities where such people need not, as a matter of definition, have any connection whatsoever with the Church of England? Purely secular office holders who are prepared to sign the declaration that they object to women priests as a matter of conscience are brought within that wide class. Why has it not been defined?

Mr. Alison : I attempted to explain that the definition would be difficult to contain--it would take up pages of schedules of the Measure and almost certainly leave somebody out. My hon. Friend overlooks the fact that there is, in the nature of the discretion, a capacity to be selective and discriminating with an appeals machinery and procedure. I cannot see how one can possibly behave more fairly than that, given the broad demonstration by the Church of England, through the Measure, that it is determined to help those who can show that they have real need and a reasonable title to such help.

Mr. John Ward (Poole) : We are in uncharted waters. There have been many declarations of intent, which are welcome. Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that, given the broad estimate of those who may be covered by the Measures, the Church will have at its disposal the financial resources necessary, and still be able to carry out its work? Has there been an accountant's appraisal of the ability of the Church to meet its promises?

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Mr. Alison : My hon. Friend will find in the paragraph of the Ecclesiastical Committee report that I have already quoted a broad-band computation of the likely cost to the Church of England, depending on whether 10, 50, 100 or more clergy resign. We have said that the costs will fall on the parishes and the man in the pew. As with all Church finances, the ultimate cost lies on the individual contributors in the parishes. They do not put a vast amount of money into the plate every Sunday. My hon. Friend may know that the average is £2.50 a week. The need will quickly arise for regular communicants of the Church of England to dip slightly deeper into their pockets. There is plenty of scope in the parishes for them to do so, given that small sum.

The question is almost, how long is a piece of string? If a substantial burden of payments arises in parishes, I believe that they will cough up-- to put it crudely--because their heart is behind the Measures, as is shown by their voting. My hon. Friend will understand that there will be some savings, if large numbers resign, in existing stipends for fully-fledged clergy. That will give the budget a certain resilience because of the fall away of some of the sums involved.

Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent) : Given what my right hon. Friend said about the time perspectives within which changes come about in the Church of England, he may be pleased to learn--if he does not already know--that the present Measures for looking after clergy compare favourably with the Measures made for those affected by the dissolution of the monasteries. Does he agree that we must both hope and expect that, within the 10-year period, large numbers of those who are present find it impossible to accept the principle of women priests will find that many of their fears and anxieties are not as great as they expected, and that they will come round, as many people have already, to the Measure?

Mr. Alison : I am grateful for that helpful, prophetic and constructive intervention.

I shall draw together the threads on the compensation provision. I shall listen with great concern and interest to what the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) says on the issue and to what all other colleagues say in their speeches. I shall hope to try to reassure them with a few further points at the end of the debate. I remind colleagues of the enormous majorities in the House of Bishops, the House of Clergy and the House of Laity in favour of the Measure. All those most intimately affected by the provisions and financial terms that we are discussing--those in the House of Clergy--voted 97 per cent. in favour. That means that they felt that those affected will be adequately provided for by the spirit and letter of the financial provisions Measure.

Throughout the debate in the Church of England on the Measures there has been clear concern to maintain the unity of the Church of England. That concern was shared by the members of the Ecclesiastical Committee. Those opposed to the ordination of women for priesthood naturally focused on the safeguards afforded to those against the Measure. As I have demonstrated, the safeguards provided in the Measure are, when added to the provisions of the existing law, extensive. When the pastoral arrangements proposed by the House of Bishops are taken into account, the protective provisions are formidable. No member of the Church in the worldwide

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Anglican Community has gone to such lengths to give those opposed to the decision a continuing place in the Church.

I pay tribute to the lead that the Archibishops of Canterbury and of York and other diocesan bishops have given in the matter. No doubt much will be made in the debate of the divisive effect of the legislation on the Church of England. I ask the House to remember how much more divisive would be a failure to pass the legislation against the wishes of so clear a majority in the Church. I urge the House to accept the considered conclusion of the majority of the Ecclesiastical Committee--a Committee of the House--that the Measures are expedient and to demonstrate that by voting for them at the end of the debate.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Before I call the next Member to speak, may I reinforce the plea that was made by Madam Speaker before she left the Chair this morning? There are many, many Members who wish to speak. Many will be disappointed if considerable self-restraint is not exercised.

10.39 am

Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) : Many are called ; few are chosen. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me. I shall be brief, not just because the Speaker has asked us to be brief to maximise the number of people who can participate in the debate, but because the Estates Commissioner has given such a good and comprehensive introduction to the measure.

We have already been reminded that there are no theological objections to the women priests Measure. Indeed, the Synod of the Church of England decided many decades ago that it had no such objections, though it would be in order for any hon. Member who wishes to tease the House today to try to put forward an argument to reject that measure on theological grounds. I do not do so. I shall speak briefly in support of the main Measure and against the compensation Measure.

Most of the objections to the women's ordination Measure are not on theological grounds, but on grounds of order. Has the Church of England the authority to make the change? People who object to the Measure hold that view passionately and I respect them for it. I do not agree with them. For we are not only an established Church--hence the debate today and the freedom of anyone who catches the Speaker's eye to participate in the debgate--but a catholic and reformed Church. It seems strange that people claim that a Church that has taken unilateral decisions to reform itself does not have the power to make further changes.

It is possible to argue that the changes that we are making today are of a different magnitude from those made at the reformation. Those made at the reformation were about whether clergy could marry, whether communion should be in two kinds and the meaning of transubstantiation. Whereas today we might think those issues trivial, in those days people were prepared to go to the stake for their beliefs. I wonder how many people would propose or oppose the Measure if the outcome might be the stake and the fire today-- but that, fortunately, is not the test.

It seems to me that it is in the power of a catholic but reformed Church--a Church that has declared UDI and

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banished the Pope's jurisdiction from this realm--to make the change that we are considering, and I hope that the House will agree to the change.

Under the Church of England Assembly Powers Act 1919, the Ecclesiastical Committee--and, I would therefore suggest, the House--has a duty, not to judge the broad sweep of a Measure, but to judge whether the Measure is expedient or not expedient when considering the rights and liberties of Her Majesty's subjects. Therefore, it was appropriate that most of the time in the Ecclesiastical Committee was spent, within those terms of reference, considering how that Measure will affect some of Her Majesty's subjects, especially those who disagree with the Measure. Not so long ago, those who disagree with the Measure were in the majority. They are not people with different views who joined the Church ; they are people who, at one time, found themselves in the majority, and who now find themselves in the minority. The Ecclesiastical Committee, therefore, quite rightly, spent most of its time considering how that group should be protected. The Estates Commissioner has reminded us that the result of that has not been merely the passing of two statements from the House of Bishops meeting in Manchester, but the promise--not yet the fulfilment--of an Act of Synod. That Act of Synod was not offered ; the information that Synod could pass such a measure had to be extracted from Synod witnesses and it was almost like getting blood out of a stone. The starting point for enshrining the rights of the minority did not, therefore, kick off in the best posssible terms. I hope that the House will consider carefully what further measures may be necessary at some later date to protect the rights of the minority who disagree with the Measure.

Against that disappointment of the Synod's not coming forward gracefully and offering that safeguard, however, we have to set the behaviour of the House of Bishops. Two unanimous statements were made, the second strengthening the first, about how rights of that minority can be protected. The House of Bishops promised to support unanimously the idea of an Act of Synod when Synod has its next meeting. There has also been a clutch of appointments of suffragen bishops, and the majority of those appointments--those that were announced last week--have been of people who either oppose the Measure or have grave doubts about it. It therefore appears that, just as no Act of Parliament or Act of Synod can, by itself, guarantee the right of a minority if the majority wishes to persecute that minority, the House of Bishops and individual bishops have done things that are encouraging. I congratulate them on the lead that they have given. It is a pity that the opponents on both sides have more recently made some wild statements about what they intend to do. I hope that when Synod considers the measure it will not be swayed by those extremist views, from whatever wing of the Church those views come. The task that I set myself-- to support the Measure--is nearly done, but I must draw the House's attention to the compensation Measure, in which we should take a careful interest. The Measure gives a statutory right to some and a discretionary right to others. It also has a formula by which compensation will be computed. Although we are not supposed to refer to it as compensation, it is a convenient shorthand which we all understand, so I shall continue to use it. The formula works against younger

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priests. Some of them who have been trained and are married are doubtful about the Measure and will not be compensated as the formula currently stands, because it does not take into account the years that they have spent training as ordinands, but only those that they have spent in post as deacons or priests. For that reason, and the fact that the Measure is vague with regard to a large number of other people who may wish not to continue as Anglican priests after the Measure is passed, I hope that the House, although it should pass the first Measure, will reject the second. If there is support for my view, I shall divide the House on that second Measure.

Mr. Paul Channon (Southend, West) : What would happen if the second Measure were defeated? What would be the compensation situation?

Mr. Field : It would concentrate the mind wonderfully, because the second Measure has to be passed for the first Measure to come into operation. We would get another order, meeting our points, so that the substantive motion would come into effect.

The Church may have some financial difficulties in meeting the cost of the compensation package, but, when Church Commissioners have lost between £3 million and £8 million by speculating on the American property market, we should not worry about whether there will be sufficient money to fund the form of compensation that we think desirable.

Mr. Michael Stern (Bristol, North-West) : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. The Church does not have a power of taxation ; to place an indefinite financial burden on it, as he suggests, and lightly to put on one side the fact it might not be able to meet it, is a recipe for potential chaos within the Church.

Mr. Field : Most people who are going to leave are covered and will gain compensation, or whatever phrase we should be using. The minority will not be covered. It is not for the House to say that, because the Church has got itself into such a financial mess by speculating on the American property market, we should deny compensation to all those people who decide that they cannot continue to act as Church of England clergymen after the Measure is passed.

Mr. Benn : I want to be absolutely clear abprevent the ordination of women on the basis proposed by the Estates Commissioner, and the House should know that.

Mr. Field : The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) may well read it that way. The alternative way to read it is that the will of the House will be that the main Measure should go forward, but that before it could be triggered into action, there would have to be a compensation scheme that we believed to be adequate. My action can be read both ways. I hope that the House will note that that is the way that I read it, rather than listen to someone else who wishes to shine a light into my soul and to decide what I am about. I do not think that that sort of behaviour is particularly helpful.

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Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South) : I think that many of us understand my hon. Friend's motives over the compensation scheme. As I understand it, however, the discretionary part of the order applies to lay persons. Am I right in thinking that the statutory part, to which he referred, refers to the ordinands? Irrespective of that, if a subsequent adjustment dealt with the anomaly of the young priests, would that satisfy him?

Mr. Field : No, because other groups of priests are not covered. Although I want the young priests to be covered by the Measure, there will also be others. The hon. Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern), who intervened before I gave way to the right hon. Member for--[ Hon. Members :-- "Chesterfield."] Yes, I wonder why my mind went blank. The intervention of the hon. Member for Bristol, North-West was to the effect that we should leave the rest of those who disagree to discretion. When the Estates Commissioner was speaking, I said that the Measure is the equivalent to some sort of social fund procedure for some priests but not for the majority. All of us know about our constituents' experiences with the social fund, and the advantage of that fund is that it has a budget. After the Church Commissioners' gambling in the property market we are not sure what the budget will be to pay for any of the Church's actions, let alone the compensation scheme.

Let us be quite clear. I strongly support the Measure and am pleased that the Church has moved to protect the minority who disagree. At first, it was reluctant but now it is less so. We know perfectly well that the Church wants the Measure. If the compensation scheme is defeated, an order will be tabled in the new Session of Parliament to establish a new compensation scheme.

Mr. Ward rose --

Mr. Field : I shall not give way, because I want to conclude with a few brief comments, as I know that many other hon. Members wish to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The Measure is a dog's dinner. The way in which the Synod produces legislation allows Measures to be ambushed by one group and thereby changed. There does not seem to be any overall responsibility for a Measure. We understand that the next Synod may set up a commission to consider the relationships between Church and State. It has every right to do so, although whether this place will take much notice of its report is another matter.

I hope that the Synod will also consider its own house and the means by which it puts together major legislation, because this House only has the power to accept, not to amend or reject, such legislation. Most people who are fervently in favour of the Measure do not think that the details are as satisfactory as they could be. Finally, on the Church's leadership on the issue, the Archbishop of Canterbury, showing considerable confidence in his post, asked the Archbishop of York to take the lead and he did so with tremendous skill. The fact that we have not had more difficulties with the Measure is a great tribute to him.

10.54 am

Mr. John Selwyn Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) : I had the immense privilege to be born into a vicarage and to be brought up in the Church of England right from the beginning. However, my father was a convert to the Church of England, having been a Baptist minister.

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Therefore, although I was brought up in an evangelical atmosphere, because my father had become an Anglican, I saw clearly that other aspect of the Church of England--its catholicity--as well as its reformed nature.

My father had chosen to become an Anglican to join the Church and to cease to be a member of a sect. I do not use that word in any offensive way but in the technical sense and I hope that no one will object to that. A sect is a group of people who surround a particular doctrine in which they passionately believe. They see themselves as the group of witnesses for that doctrine. It was because he saw the Church of England as the Church-- not in its entirety but as part of the Catholic Church--that he joined it. I am sure that the House will understand that my upbringing was therefore in one sense very typically Anglican because I could not miss either of the two great streams of thought which have informed the Church of England down the ages.

I therefore must oppose the Measure for a fundamental reason which concerns authority rather than the ordination of women. I am entirely agnostic about their ordination--I do not know whether women can be ordained or not, but I know that the Church of England cannot make that decision unilaterally. I hope to be able to explain why I think that that is true. The issue is very clear. I am sure that the House will understand that many people like me will be excluded from the Church of England as a result of the Measure and so I am pleased to have the opportunity to explain why.

When a priest is ordained, in the ordination service of the Church of England, he is ordained as a priest in the Church of God, not as an Anglican priest. I noticed that the concept of a priest in the Church of England emerged for the first time in the document before us today. The Church of England is making a change and the Church Estates Commissioner noted that in his excellent introductory speech. I think that he made a slip by referring to a priest of the Church of England. There is no such thing.

At the reformation, the Church of England sought to continue the essential elements of catholicity so that everyone could be comprehended within the Church. There was no division between the pre-reformation and post- reformation orders, which is why the Church Estates Commissioner could make that pleasant allusion to the fact that some bishops were Chancellors of the Exchequer. It is perfectly right that we understand that continuity. The Church of England went to great trouble to ensure the continuity of orders. Some people in the Roman Catholic Church may not believe that, but that is up to them. The Anglican teaching has always been that there was continuity, which means that if one is ordained a priest in the Church of England, it is the same priesthood as that held by orthodox or Roman Catholic priests.

There were changes at the time of the reformation, but those were of a different kind, as the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) should realise. They were fundamentally different. At the reformation, the Church of England sought to return to what had been before, and to what they thought had been changed in the meantime--that was the reform.

The Measure is not expedient because it does not meet either of the qualities of the Church of England, reformed or Catholic. If one is Catholic one says that no doctrine may be taught that is not clearly taught from a biblical basis, and no doctrine may be taught that has not been believed down the ages by the Church. We in the Church

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of England have always applied the Vincentian canon, which said that orthodoxy of belief was measured by "Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus"--that which has always, by everyone and everywhere been believed. The difficulty with the ordination of women is that it has been believed nowhere by anyone at any time until now. Therefore, it is difficult to say that it is part of the tradition of the Church.

The reformers argued that their reform was Catholic by saying that everything that they were doing was clearly part of the Church's tradition- -they had clearly had married priests, it had clearly been possible to interpret what happened at the eucharist in a different way from that which had been the way, it had been possible to claim that one was a Catholic and not in communion with the See of Rome. They may have been right or wrong, but that was the basis of their argument. That is not the basis of the argument being presented to the House.

One does not have to hold this argument ; all non-conformists do not hold it, which is perfectly reasonable. However, one cannot change the argument without changing the nature of the Church of England fundamentally. It is now being demonstrated that the Church of England has said, for the first time in history, that it can change unilaterally the doctrine of the universal Church, and do that which has never been done before, not on the basis of the whole Church, but on the particular basis of a majority in the General Synod. That is the difference which we must address. That difference is a matter of fact and is driving a significant minority out of the Church of England. I think that the hon. Member for Birkenhead will agree with me when I say that many feel as I do and are placed in a fundamental difficulty over what is being proposed.

The Church of England says that by a two thirds majority of the General Synod it can change what has always been taught everywhere and by everybody. I warn the House that it will not be the only step in the process. That change is followed by a series of Measures which will be passed and presented to the House. The Church of England will move further and further away from the orthodox position. We must not think that the ordination of women is the last word.

I do not feel strongly about the ordination of women in itself. It is not an issue on which I cannot imagine the whole Church changing its mind. Jesus gave clear rights to the Church to bind on earth that which would be bound in heaven and to loose on earth that which would be loosed in heaven. I understand that the Church as a whole might make such a decision. However, I warn the House that we are participating in an action in which the Church of England has arrogated to itself a power, hitherto unknown in the Church of England or any other part of the Catholic Church--that a province can make unilateral decisions that run contrary to the long, historic teaching of the Church, and do so by a majority, albeit of two thirds.

There is a problem. It is all very well for those who always want to bring the issue down to political matters, as some people do. It is not a political issue ; we are not talking about women's rights. Those of us who worked for a long time for a woman know a bit about women's rights. Those of us who read the memoirs of such women know a bit about women's rights, too. I do not accept the view that we cannot have a serious discussion in the House on the theological issue involved. We would have had such a debate had the Church of England decided by a two-thirds

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majority to take the virgin birth from the creed. No one in the House should think that such a change will not soon be on the list of things to come.

The issue involves how decisions are taken in the Church. We must face the reality that many will be forced out of the Church because of the change. The Church of England has made an immensely arrogant claim which has been beautifully, delicately and non-arrogantly presented by the Church Estates Commissioner. The Church of England is saying that, despite the fact that the rest of the Church which has priests outside the Anglican communion, all those who understand the priesthood in the way in which the Church of England understands it and every previous part of the Church of England has always believed it to be wrong, we can now, by a two thirds majority, put it right. That is devastating arrogance. I find it hard to accept that the Archbishop of York can say that a hundred of his predecessors were wrong and he is right. I could accept it were it not about a subject on which the Church had always been unanimous.

I should explain why the issue is important. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) feels strongly about it. I voted in favour of women deacons because they have existed in the past and the Church accepted that. Therefore, it is perfectly right to say that a part of the Church--the Church of England--can make the decision to reinstate that which the Church has had. A reformed Church can properly take such action. The question is whether a reformed Church can decide to make a necessary part of being an Anglican the willingness to believe that the Church of England can ordain women--a fundamental problem for a reformed Church. The reformed Church of England said that it would have no doctrines of its own, but would teach only what was necessary to salvation. It said that it would not add to that central body of doctrine. If one had, until recently, asked an Anglican to state the Anglican doctrines he could properly say, "We have none of our own, but teach only the doctrines of the Catholic Church as expressed in the three creeds and we have only the orders of the Catholic Church--bishops, priests and deacons. We have nothing of our own and, in a sense, we are the stalking horse for future unity. We are here to bring people together ; we are the bridge Church because we demand of nobody anything in addition to that demanded down the ages." Now, an Anglican will be unable to say that because he will also have to say, "In addition, we are expected to accept the ministries of women priests who are ordained not on the authority of the whole of the Catholic Church, but on the authority of the General Synod of the Church of England." That is the fundamental gravamen of the problem. It is argued that one will be able to be an Anglican because one will not have to accept the ordination of women and will be able to live in a specific community linked to a bishop who takes a different view. I cannot imagine a less proper way of living the Christian life or a more sexist concept. If I were supposed to go past three or four Anglican churches in order to find one that did not have women priests, I would be saying something both to myself and my children that I should find intolerable. I would be saying that I belonged to a Church, but was in communion with only one third of it. That seems to be an intolerable way of belonging to the Catholic Church.

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Mr. Peter Bottomley : I think that my right hon. Friend's argument is receiving a sympathetic hearing across the House because he is concentrating on specific issues, not taking them all together. Does he agree that the only part of the argument that might be described as unfair involves the two thirds majority in the Synod? Before 1919 the House, without the help of the Synod, would have been able to pass the legislation. The question is whether the habit of not ordaining women has been such an historic negative that it should rightly be described as a doctrine. To describe the two thirds majority vote of the Synod as rather unusual is to miss the point that the House allowed the Synod to have such a role in this Measure.

Mr. Gummer : I should not like to say anything about the Synod that would disturb my hon. Friend. I agree that that is how such decisions are now made. However, I disagree with him about the habit. The saints and fathers of the Church specifically and without doubt state that the mind of the Church is that women cannot be ordained. I shall not argue that case because it is not the one that I am putting to the House, nor the view that I hold.

Secondly, I am putting to the House the fundamental case that the decision changes the nature of the Church of England in a way which means that many faithful Anglicans cannot remain Anglicans. It is right for the House to understand that before it votes, although I accept that that will not change the result. I am grateful to hon. Members for their kindness in listening to me because I know that my argument is unpopular. But the House is the place to put minority views as plainly as possible when such decisions have to be made. If the Church of England is changed in this way it will cease to be the comprehensive Church that it once was. The glory of the Church of England was that I could kneel at the altar as an Anglo- Catholic next to an extreme evangelical for whom, to quote Lord Boyle's words about my right hon. Friend, who introduced the motion,

"The word Protestant is a trumpet call."

That quote covers many people in the Church of England but we knelt at the same altars--or holy tables, I had better be careful--and received the same sacraments from a priest whose validity we all accept.

The nature of the Church of England brought together that wide range of views and insights into God. It did so by insisting on only two things--the doctrines of the creeds and the orders of the Catholic Church. Once such orders are unilaterally changed, the range of people in the pews will be much more restricted.

Thirdly, it denies the whole basis of the Elizabethan settlement, which sought to create a Church of the nation in which everybody, except those who were at the extreme ends, could worship together. It did not succeed and perhaps it was wrong, but that was what it attempted, and that is what has made the Church of England so different. There has now been a denial of that attempt because a section of the population who could once be members of the Church of England now cannot be.

Fourthly, the Church of England had a real role in unity. I admired the speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) but on that issue he spoke rather oddly.It is not that anyone who argues my view says that somehow or other the Roman Church or the Orthodox Church has a veto on these matters because, of course, that is not so. It is that many of us feel that the Church of

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England's vocation was to recover that unity for which our Lord prayed at his last supper, that we should be one that the world might believe. That is what he asked for.

Therefore, for some of us unity is the most fundamental part of our vocation, and the Church of England seemed to us over many generations as the one Church that had begun to show how to hold together the insights of Catholic and Protestant, although we use the word reformed. It was a beacon of light in a world in which the Church shows the disaster and disgrace of division.

Mr. Rowe : Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Gummer : I should like to finish this point and then I shall give way.

The Church should have sought unity first and from that unity sought the ordination of women, which would have been a proper thing to do. I do not mind the Church of England using the phrase from the Roman Church "in pectore", kept in its heart, meaning that it wished to ordain women but would seek unity first and try to convince the whole Church. Instead, it has gone for access religion. It takes the waiting out of wanting because it wants so much that it does not want to wait. That is the fundamental issue for many of us. We longed for the unity of which we thought the Church of England could be the harbinger, but that is no longer possible.

Mr. John Marshall : Does my right hon. Friend accept that unity can mean unity between the Church of England and the free churches and that the free churches are happy to have women priests? Does he also accept that the only act of Christian unity has been the creation of the United Reformed Church in which women are allowed to be vicars?

Mr. Gummer : I shall be careful in replying to my hon. Friend because I do not want to be rude. He is not speaking about priests, because the United Reformed Church does not claim to have priests : it claims to have ministers. It does not believe in the priesthood in the sense of the Apostolic priesthood that is taught and held in the Church of England. My hon. Friend's point is on a different issue. Any body such as the United Reformed Church or the Methodist Church can decide to have its own ministry and that is perfectly proper. My sister-in-law is a Methodist minister and I have no problem about that because that is the basis of Methodism, which does not claim to have the priesthood.

The issue is that the Church of England claimed to have the priesthood in the Apostolic tradition. Some Anglicans do not hold that view, but they accept it as the price of unity that many reformed Anglicans have accepted down the ages. That price is now being thrown away.

Mr. Rowe : Some of us are having difficulty with some parts of my hon. Friend's otherwise brilliant and lucid argument. I do not understand how he thinks that it is essential for the Church of England to wait until churches that have unilaterally added to the body of belief without consulting any other parts of the communion agree with it.

Mr. Gummer : There are two reasons. First, Christian disunity is the greatest disgrace to the Christian gospel, and we should think carefully before adding to that disunity. Secondly, whatever my hon. Friend's view of the Roman Church, he does not need to hold the same view of the Orthodox Church which has added nothing in these areas

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to the corpus of catholic faith. The Orthodox Church is the one which most needs the Church of England at this moment because it is trying to rediscover in Russia and elsewhere how to be a Church after being submerged by the communist authorities for so long. It looks and reaches to us.

In a sense, the biggest and most damaging comment about unity that I have ever heard was from the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church who felt that he had to say, "What authority does the Archbishop of Canterbury have now that he has given up the authority of the historic catholic church?" I shall end by concentrating on that. The Church cannot teach the gospel unless it can point to its authority for doing so. It cannot teach the gospel unless it is clearly part of that body against which Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail. It cannot teach unless it can say, "Yes, we bind on earth what is bound in heaven, and we loose on earth what is loosed in heaven." That is the gospel authority given to the Church, and any doubt about our being part of that Church removes our ability to preach the gospel to the people of England, and that is what the Church of England is supposed to do. It was the way in which in the form closest to the people of England the gospel could best be preached.

During recent months and years, it has become impossible for a significant number of Anglicans to be members of the Church of England, because it has denied the basis of its authority. It no longer upholds the principles of reform--because it has insisted upon a doctrine that has no biblical foundation and has never been taught in the Church--and it has denied its catholicity because it has unilaterally decided that it can change its orders.

What does the Church of England intend to do to those who feel that they can no longer be members? I want to underline what was said by the hon. Member for Birkenhead. Young men who have trained for the priesthood, but who do not fit into the prescribed number of years--that is, they have been priests for fewer than five years--have no certainty of help for themselves or their families as they contemplate that terrible possibility for them-- that the vocation in the Church that they thought they had is to be removed.

What about a school chaplain who is not directly employed by the Church? I think in particular of one man, an excellent school chaplain, who finds it impossible to remain an Anglican. He cannot continue in his job because that position is open only to Anglicans. He will lose his job because of his faith, yet he is not open--to use shorthand--to compensation, only to discretion. Therefore, I ask the Second Church Estates Commissioner, my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby, for a simple assertion. I want him to state, absolutely clearly, that anyone, whether or not he has been employed in a parish, no matter how long he has been in orders, and who in every other way fits the statutory requirements, will receive compensation- -not as of right, because that is not possible under the law, but as though he had the right.

If my right hon. Friend can tell me that all such people will get the compensation that they would have received had they been beneficed clergymen of the Church of England, there can be no problem with what the hon. Member for Birkenhead said. However, if my right hon. Friend cannot tell me that, that is very worrying. All these matters have been the subject of enormous discussion within the Church of England but, so far, it has refused to make that very simple assertion.

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I am very sad that the issue of authority should have arisen in this House on the subject of the ordination of women. It would be easier for the House to consider the nature of authority and the nature of the Church of England were the arguments not clouded by the perfectly proper desire to ensure that women are not excluded from an area from which many feel, for all sorts of reasons, they should not be excluded.

However, that does not mean that those of us for whom this is a matter of fundamental belief should not warn the House of one simple fact, which is that already in training in other denominations are significant numbers of Anglican priests who were formerly serving in the Church of England, but who now look to serve in other Churches. Significant numbers more have already said that they will have to leave the Church when promulgation takes place. Already, many lay people are in the same position.

Nevertheless, in a sense all that is much less important than what happens to those of us who want to bring up our children as Christians. We feel strongly that we cannot do so in a Church that says to them, "You are in communion with these people, but not with those people." One cannot be a partial Anglican. One cannot be a bit of a bit of a Church which itself, at best, is a bit of the Catholic Church.

We must take our Christian vocation seriously. For that reason, many of us have no choice but to say that when the Measure is passed we will be excluded from the Church of England and a great part of its way of presenting the gospel to England will be damaged. At the centre of the Church of England's appeal is the fact that it is comprehensive, that it is Catholic and that it is reformed. In the future, it will never again be able to claim to be Catholic. 11.25 am

Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield) : The speech that we have just heard from the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) must have been made many hundreds of times over many hundreds of years, for example, against the admission of Catholics into Parliament, against the admission of Jews into Parliament-- [Interruption.] Of course it has.

The right hon. Gentleman failed to recognise that conscience is not the exclusive property of men. Many women moved to service in the Church have waited most patiently, not for five years but for 70 or more. The right hon. Gentleman said that his father was a Baptist minister who became an Anglican. My mother, an Anglican, was a member of the League of Church Militant in 1920. It was the predecessor of the movement for the ordination for women. Archbishop Randall Davidson, the Archbishop of Canterbury, summoned her to Lambeth Palace in 1925--the year I was born--and rebuked her for advocating the ordination of women.

During the last world war, the Bishop of Chekiang ordained Miss Lee Timoi to give Holy Communion in that province of China. At the end of the war, the Church of England said to the bishop, "If you do not remove her orders to prevent her from giving Holy Communion we will stop giving money to the Church of China."

We are discussing human matters because matters of faith are deeply entrenched in the human soul. I had more happiness from seeing the young women outside Church House embracing each other when the news of the vote in

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the Synod came through than I have had from many of the decisions taken by this House over many years. Women have waited patiently for ordination. I have met--as I am sure others have-- young women training for ordination, yet without any knowledge of when they would ever be ordained in the Church of England.

The arguments used by the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal--who, dare I say, has no theological qualifications--to persuade Parliament to turn down the Measure were absolutely invalid. As the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the right hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) said, the Anglican communion worldwide has already accepted the ordination of women. Bishop Harris--a woman--is an Episcopalian Bishop in America and she may come to the next Lambeth conference. Is that a breach of the unity on which we are so often lectured? A year or two ago, I met an American woman who had been ordained into the Episcopalian Church and she gave Communion in this country. That is one reason why I ask what offence would be committed. When she gave Communion, an Anglican vicar approached the Communion table and bit her on the thumb when she administered the sacrament to him.

We must recognise that at the heart of this debate, however it may be covered up in theological terms, is prejudice against women and the attitude that they are not numan beings. The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal says that the great thing about the Church of England is that it is comprehensive. What is the price of being comprehensive if the Church will not give women the opportunity to serve it through ordination?

As I have said, matters of faith are deeply felt. I have a great respect for people of all faiths. So few people believe in anything today that when we meet people of conviction, of any sort, we must respect them. The hon. Member for Maidstone (Miss Widdecombe) has, I believe, left the Church of England. Of course, it is a fact that in America many Roman Catholics joined the Episcopalian Church when it ordained women. The hon. Lady must not rule out the possibility that, as a result of the ordination of women, Roman Catholic women will join the Church of England so that they, too, can be ordained. I remind the House that in the Roman Catholic Church there is a movement called es that the strength of the Roman Catholic Church worldwide depends upon the ordination of women. I am not making any theological argument, because I do not pretend to believe in anything more than the priesthood of all believers. I have never believed in bishops, any more than I believe in regional organisers. All organisations in the world begin with a burning faith and end up with a bureaucracy more interested in burning and expelling people than in the faith that brought them into being. I will not go into that in any greater detail.

Should Parliament decide this matter? Of course, in law it must, because the Church of England is a nationalised Church. It is our oldest nationalised industry. The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal said that Henry VIII nationalised it so that it could be a Church of the people. In fact, he nationalised it because he had a row with the Pope, who was imposing too much taxation on Britain. The king wanted the tax instead of the Pope. It was what one might call a value added tax argument in theological terms.

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Do not let us be told that it was because, in the Elizabethan settlement, the king suddenly was moved to provide spiritual comfort. There is not a word of truth in that.

The Act of Uniformity has been very brutal in its implications. A Rev. William Benn--I do not know whether he was an ancestor, but I hope to God that he was--was ejected from his living in Dorchester in 1662 under the great ejectment because he would not accept the provisions of the Act of Uniformity. Everyone knows that that the Church has been most intolerant as a nationalised Church. I mentioned earlier that at one time, Catholics and Jews could not sit in the House. Everyone must know the story of Charles Bradlaugh who was elected to represent Northampton. He said, "I cannot take the oath because I am a Humanist." The House said, "Sling him out." There was another election and he was returned again, and the same thing happened. On the third occasion--being a reasonable, moderate man-- Bradlaugh said, "All right, I will take the oath." The House told him, "You can't, because you are not a Christian." At that point, the Speaker intervened with the sort of discretion that only Speakers have and said, "I instruct the hon. Gentleman to take the oath." The Church of England should not be presented historically as anything other than it was--a state Church which was sometimes enormously intolerant but which has gradually come to recognise that there are other views as well.

Today, we are asked to comment on the matter, and that raises in my mind the absolute absurdity of the Establishment of the Church of England. I have always been interested in three nationalised industries. One is the Church of England and another is the Post Office. When I was made Postmaster-General, I wondered what great socialist spirit had moved Charles II to nationalise the Post Office. I discovered that it was because he wanted to open everybody's letters, and he could only do that by setting up the royal mail. The third great nationalised industry is the BBC. Just as Henry VIII wanted a priest in every pulpit in every parish every Sunday, telling parishioners that God wanted them to do what the king wanted them to do, a Conservative Government nationalised the BBC because they wanted a pundit on every channel every night, telling the public that there was no alternative to what the Conservatives wanted to do. I do not want it to be thought that nationalisation is the prerogative of the left. It has been used by the right to control our thoughts and to open our letters for many centuries.

The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal spoke from the Government Back Benches--as is appropriate for this debate--of the role of the bishops as part of the united Catholic Church. Has any right hon. or hon. Member read the homage that a bishop must recite before he is ordained? It reads :

"I do hereby declare that your Majesty is the only supreme governor of this your Realm in spiritual and ecclesiastical things as well as in temporal"--

bishops do not even recognise democracy--

"and that no foreign prelate or potentate has any jurisdiction within this Realm."

The Maastrich treaty will be ratified today, yet every bishop has taken an oath that

"no foreign prelate or potentate has any jurisdiction within this Realm."

Let us be clear. If the Queen became a Catholic this afternoon, the throne would be vacated. Something else

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