House of Commons Hansard Debates for 29 Oct 1993

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your constituents.' Vote against me if you wish, vote for the new Prayer Book if you wish, but every member who comes to this House has a bounden duty to consider for himself the great issues which are put before him and to decide those issues in what he believes to be the interests of right and justice."--[ Official Report, 17 December 1927 ; Vol. 211, c. 2550.]

I think that that is a basis on which we should have this debate. No matter what their views may be, whether they are believers or unbelievers, they should have the right to say.

The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) said that no one at their election ever mentioned that. In my election I mentioned it and said that it was an issue. I said that it would be an issue that would be coming to the House of Commons. Needless to say, the people knew the attitude that I would adopt in such a debate as this.

Mr. Alison : Did my hon. Friend mention in his election address which way he would be voting at 2.30 pm on the Measures?

Rev. Ian Paisley : I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that it will be no surprise to him how I vote. Let him read how we voted in the Lobbies and he will see which way I voted. That will give him a little extra homework to do.

The hon. Member for Maidstone (Miss Widdecombe) spoke with great depth of feeling, naturally, and made a valid and important point. She said that the heart of this issue was the sacramental priesthood. Let us not allow anything to cover over that. The great divide comes when one believes in the sacramental priesthood or when one rejects it.

Some hon. Members spoke about figures in the Reformed Church. The Reformed Church is an amalgam of the Congregational Church and the Presbyterian Church in England. It does not have vicars. It has ministers. There is a distinction that must be drawn between the conception of a minister and the conception of a priest. No one will ever hear me claiming to be a priest. But for 47 years I have exercised a ministry right in the heart of Belfast. The priesthood, however, as envisaged by the hon. Lady, is the priesthood that has been seen in the Roman Catholic Church.

In canon 11 of the Council of Trent, Rome states :

"If any one shall say that in these words do this in remembrance of me', Christ did not appoint the apostles to be priests, or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer His body and blood, let him be accursed."

The Church of Rome anathematises those who do not hold to that sacramental priesthood. When a bishop of the Church of Rome ordains a person to the priesthood, he says :

"Receive thou power to offer sacrifice to God and to celebrate Masses both for the living and the dead."

The catechism of the Council of Trent further says :

"when the Bishop makes that offer to the person being ordained by these words he is committed to becoming a mediator between God and man."

That is the basis of the Roman Catholic priesthood as it is the basis of the Anglo-Catholic priesthood. I do not want to be unfair to them, but I take an entirely different view. I do not see anything about a sacrificing priest in the New Testament. I have never read in the New Testament that the Apostles or those whom they ordained to the gospel ministry ever made priests in such a ceremony. The Bible also talks about the choosing of Apostles. I resent the suggestion that the Lord Jesus was afraid to go against the feelings of his day and therefore did not appoint one woman apostle. The Lord Jesus Christ was God

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incarnate. He was fearless and He was without sin. If He felt that the apostleship should have been shared by womenfolk, He would have set that in train and established that foundation for the ministry. He did not. As we know, when the apostle talked about ministers in the Christian Church he said that a minister had to be the husband of one wife. I do not understand how that can be transferred to the other gender. I believe that womenfolk have a place in the ministry of the Church, but it does not happen to be in that particular phase of gospel ministry.

I was rather amazed when the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal said that the Church of England doctrines were contained in the three creeds. I wonder what he does about the 39 Articles. Does he completely jettison them? They have a lot to say about

transubstantiation and about the Lord's supper. I shall not weary the House with all of them, but let me quote article 31. It is entitled :

"Of the one Oblation of Christ finished upon the Cross." It says :

"The Offering of Christ once made is that perfect redemption, propitiation, and satisfaction, for all the sins of the whole world, both original and actual ; and there is none other satisfaction for sin, but that alone. Wherefore the sacrifices of Masses in the which it was commonly said, that the Priest did offer Christ for the quick and the dead, to have remission of pain or guilt, were blasphemous fables, and dangerous deceits."

That is not my language. That is the language of the Book of Common Prayer, which is opened every day in the House and from which we have our prayers. Here we have the divide, and it is a great divide. A member said to me, "Will you be in the Pope's Lobby today?" I said to him, as I said some years ago when a Labour Member asked me the same question in a debate about abortion, "If the Pope wants to join my Lobby, he is very welcome."

Hon. Members have said today that the New Testament has nothing to say about the matter, but it has everything to say. The Lord Jesus Christ certainly elevated women and where the Christian message is heard women will be elevated, but the Bible states clearly that the man is the head of the woman and Christ is the head of the man. My right hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) explained that away in a few sentences.

Mr. Gummer : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the occasion in which God showed his particular favour towards womanhood was when God chose Our Lady to be his mother, and that the position of the blessed Virgin Mary shows clearly the very particular way in which God and his Church have upheld womanhood down the ages?

Rev. Ian Paisley : I find it difficult to follow the right hon. Gentleman, for God had no other way in which he would bring about the incarnation because it was based on a promise :

"The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head." I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman, however, that my saviour is Virgin-born, and certainly God chose the Virgin to be the mother of Our Lord's flesh. That is revealed in the Word of God, which I accept.

Let me return to the subject of authority. The authority, to me, is the Holy Scripture and there is specific teaching in the Holy Scripture that cannot be argued away about these matters. If I am to accept one part of the 39 Articles, which I do, I must accept the other part about the authority of Holy Scripture. The authority of Holy Scripture is above

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councils, above Synods, above Parliament and above every other authority. The scriptures alone bear the Word of God and they should be heeded and harkened to.

This is a solemn day for the House. Changes in the national Church are serious for everyone, not only members of the Church of England. The spiritual life of the nation has to a degree been held together by the cement of an established Church.

The Presbyterian Church in Scotland is an established Church. The Scottish Presbyterians learnt the bitterness of royal rule over them in the crusade of the covenanters and the reformers. They came to the conclusion that, although they could be established, they would not brook any state interference.

The Church of England has a different set-up. Henry VIII was mentioned today. I do not think that he was a Protestant. I believe that he continued to be a Roman Catholic to the end, but he thought that he would be a better Pope than the Pope so he de-poped the Pope and took the Pope's job. That does not mean that he set the basis for the Church of England.

Thomas Cranmer was mentioned today and it was said that if he had received a cheque he might have reneged. He certainly would not, because Thomas Cranmer was prepared to die for what he believed. The prayer book largely owes itself to the work of Thomas Cranmer. Before we touch eternal truths that refer to the spirituality of our nation we need to be careful. I read carefully the "red book", as I call it. I read what the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack) said. He asked the bishop, "Does eternal truth change?", and I was appalled at the answer. According to that bishop, it can change on every occasion. The bishop was confronted by the hon. Gentleman about the fact that it was said when a deaconess was ordained in the Church that it would go no farther, yet now they are going to have women as priests. They say that there will never be a woman bishop, but we all know that there will be if they go on.

However, other things worry me far more, for example, the fact that the Bishop of Durham denies every tenet of the gospel and everything that is in the Bible, yet he is supposed to chase false doctrine away from his diocese. He is the greatest propagator of false doctrine. That is the sort of thing that should concern legislators. Whatever any hon. Member says, the fact that people in this country have the opportunity to go and listen to the Word of God will help us to get over our difficulties. It is an anchor of the soul. I trust that, even out of all this controversy, He, who can make the wrath of man to praise Him and the remainder of that wrath restrain, will prevail and that all things will work together for good to those who love God.

1.50 pm

Mr. Roger Sims (Chislehurst) : When the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) rose to his feet, we anticipated that he would approach the issues and discussion from his own unique angle and he did not disappoint us.

My son's wedding was the highlight of my summer recess. When discussing it a few weeks beforehand with my bishop, I commented that my niece would be marrying my son, which caused raised eyebrows until I explained that my niece is a deacon of the Church and would be

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performing the ceremony. I need hardly say that she did it very well. It was a very happy occasion and I look forward to attending her ordination as a priest in the Church before many months elapse. Incidentally, Opposition Members will be interested to know that the wedding took place in Tolpuddle and that my daughter-in-law comes from the Loveless family.

The House will, therefore, not be surprised where my sympathies lie, and they are confirmed by the voting record of the Ecclesiastical Committee, of which I have been a member for some years.

As the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) said, the Committee has not gone through any Measure more thoroughly than the Measures that we are discussing today. Usually, we spend one or two meetings discussing the Measures that come to us from Synod. We met no fewer than 11 times to discuss these Measures, including a full conference between our Committee and the legislative committee of Synod. As has been said, the Synod representatives included two people who were against the Measure, as well as those who had promoted it. The Committee concluded, by a clear majority, that both of the Measures are expedient--an expression used to show that we recommend to both Houses that they be approved.

On the theological issues, the Committee took the view that it was not for us as a body to pass judgment. Personally, I am not persuaded that there is any theological objection to the ordination of women. One of the weakest arguments that I have heard against their ordination is the Apostolic succession which, it is alleged, would be broken by women's ordination. That succession is defined as "an uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority, through a succession of bishops from the apostles downwards."

In other words, the Apostles ordained others, who became bishops and in turn carried out ordinations, and so on until the present day. I fully understand that, but I do not understand why spiritual authority can pass on when a bishop lays his hands upon a man's head but not if he lays his hands on a woman's head. I put that question to one of the bishops who had expressed opposition to these Measures. I was not surprised when I received no response.

It can be argued, as it has been by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay), that it is not a matter for Parliament, but we know that, for historical reasons, as the law stands, it is a matter for Parliament. Our task is to satisfy ourselves on three issues. First, does the Church want the Measures? The fact that it does is clearly shown by the vote of the General Synod and by support for the Measures throughout the country. That support is clearly tabulated on page 20 of the Ecclesiastical Committee report, which lists the votes in the various diocese.

Secondly, are there any practical objections to the ordination of women? Clearly, there are none. It can be argued that there are some jobs, for example, those of police officers, where in certain circumstances, a woman is not ideally equipped to deal with all the situations that may arise. However, that is not the case with women priests. There have been women deaconesses for many years--for some years, there have been deacons--and their qualities have proved ideal for the job. They are particularly suited to pastoral work. Thirdly, are the concerns of the minority who take a different view adequately protected? That question has naturally taken up much of the Ecclesiastical Committee's

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time and of today's debate. I venture to suggest that the position of bishops who do not want to ordain women priests and of those parishes that may object to having women priests is fully covered in the provisions, in the two Manchester statements and in the proposed Act of Synod.

The Committee certainly satisfied itself that the Measures include appropriate safeguards and financial provisions for those clergy and lay people who feel unable to remain in the Church of England. The provisions were carefully analysed. It is fair to say that while some felt that the financial provision was inadequate, others felt that it was over-generous, particularly given the Church of England's financial state. I believe that the balance is about right. It is my fervent hope that those provisions will be little used.

The Measures are not about splitting the Church ; they are about enriching it. The Church is not a body separate from the rest of the community--it is part of it. It is possible to maintain the eternal truths on which the Church is founded--truths to which my hon. Friends, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), have referred--while adapting its structures and practices to reflect the influences and climate in which it exists. The role of women in our society is different, as the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy) said, from when the Church was founded and from only a few decades ago. I do not believe that the Measures are the product of some sort of militant feminism, with which some are seeking to associate them.

The Measures are a recognition of the increasing momentum towards sex equality in society generally. That equality has already been gained in a number of spheres, including this place, certainly in quality and achievement, if not yet in numbers. The Measures are also a recognition that women have very much to offer to the priesthood. Nor is it right to link the issue with certain trends in the Church, which have led to its ambivalent attitudes towards homosexuality and its incongruous recognition of gay priests, which I find a contradiction in terms.

The Measures stand on their own merits. They have support in the majority of what might be called the active Church and among those who simply call themselves Church of England, and whose church attendance may be sporadic. I do not deny that endorsing the Measures will cause pain to some, but failure to do so will cause pain to many more.

I hope that the House and the other place will support the Measures and will endorse the final paragraph of the Ecclesiastical Committee report. The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey quoted it, so I shall repeat only the final sentence which states :

"It is the fervent hope of the whole Committee that unity will be preserved."

Perhaps the appropriate words to add are "Amen to that".

2 pm

Ms Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Highgate) : I think that I am an agnostic. I know that I deeply believe in a spiritual energy which finds its expression in many ways. There is no limit via gender to the expression of that spiritual energy in every aspect of our national life. Although I think that I am an agnostic, I am privileged to represent a constituency in which many people are absolutely clear about their passionate commitment to practice within the Church of England.

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Well before this issue came to the House, I received from men and women, from laity and clergy, by letter, by telephone, by being stopped in the street and by a lobby in this place, an expression of the desire of my constituents to assure and reassure themselves that when the issue eventually came to the House I would vote for the ordination of women.

I was somewhat surprised that my constituents were not aware of my passionate and spiritual commitment to equality for women in every aspect of our national life.

The debate has been of a remarkably high quality, although I found it rather odd that those hon. Members who oppose the ordination of women tend to be opposed because, for example, a woman cannot be a father. The hon. Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack), who said that, did not say that a man cannot be a mother. The harsh realities of life in these islands are that 1.5 million women have to be both father and mother to their children.

The central issue is who is privileged to hear the voice of God? Who is privileged to have delivered to him or her a call from the Supreme Being? I find utterly unacceptable the idea that the Supreme Being speaks exclusively to those of the male gender. For a long time, many women have patiently remained in the Church of England and have never threatened to leave it if they could not be ordained. They have completely acknowledged that that burden was part of their spiritual progress towards responding in full to the voice of God. Excluding the issue of equal rights for women, that is the strongest possible argument and it concentrates on the spiritual and theological dimensions of the matter. That is why I shall vote in favour of ordination for women and why I urge all hon. Members to do the same. God has called upon those women and no one in the House or outside has any right to deny their response to the Supreme Being's call. 2.3 pm

Mr. David Atkinson (Bournemouth, East) : As a Roman Catholic, I hesitated somewhat before taking part in the debate. However, having listened to the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), I do so with less hesitation. He will not be surprised to learn that, like my Church, I oppose the ordination of women. In addition to the more sophisticated theological arguments, I hold the view, however simplistic, that if our Lord had meant there to be women priests--and certainly women bishops will follow--he would have chosen women to be among his Apostles and would have invited them to participate in the last supper to celebrate the first Holy Communion.

Of course, his women disciples were present at the foot of the cross, but the roles of Mary his mother, of the other Mary, of Martha and of his other women disciples, although important, were also different. So were the roles of those women who held important positions in the early Christian Church, so many of whom were martyred. Women have never been precluded from very full and fulfilling positions in the Christian Church.

There are three reasons why I oppose the Measures. They have been influenced by my meetings with local Anglican clergy, whose clear distress in wrestling with their consciences in trying to respond positively to the Measures concerns me greatly. First, it appears that the overwhelming consensus for the Measures claimed by Archbishop Carey is far from true at the grassroots of his Church. I understand that in the voting in the deanery

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synods, a two thirds majority was achieved in only 300 deaneries--it failed to reach two thirds in 424. If true, that is hardly a consensus for such an important change in doctrine that it requires this Parliament to approve it. It is certainly not the two thirds majority in the Church as a whole claimed by the General Synod. Secondly, as the Measures stand, there will be an undoubted split in the Church, but that can be avoided if they are amended to include a more protective conscience clause. I am appalled to learn of the attitude being taken by some, including bishops, towards those clergy known to be opposed to the Measures. Apparently, there is rarely any practical chance of promotion for them. In my area, 40 priests covering 30 parishes have told their bishop that they can no longer look to him as their father in God. They have formed their own chapter, which meets regularly. I find that very sad.

Finally, I oppose the Measures because they will undoubtedly delay, perhaps even prevent, the ultimate unification of the Catholic Churches in this country. They will encourage Anglican clergy, as well as laity, to seek integration in the Roman Catholic Churchhe bottom of one of them.

I hope that the Measures will be defeated today. I hope that the General Synod will think again. It remains a challenge to both Catholic Churches in this country to find ways to develop the ministry of women in this modern world, but it does not lie in the priesthood.

2.7 pm

Mr. Michael Bates (Langbaurgh) : I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this historic debate, to which I have listened with interest. Many people have said that, perhaps, it is not the responsibility and role of this place to debate such issues. I profoundly disagree with them and I suggest to those hon. Members who have participated in and sat through the debate that that view will be proved wrong. This has been one of the most edifying and uplifting debates in which it has been my privilege to participate during my brief time in the House. From time to time, it is a good thing, even in this House, to consider matters spiritual as well as temporal, and that we have done.

I am sure that many people at this time have great anxiety about the ordination of women to the priesthood. I am a believer in the sacramental priesthood and I have no problem squaring that with my belief that women should be part of the priesthood. The emancipation of women in this country has brought great variety and different strengths to our society and has been a great success. It should have been introduced here some time ago.

There will be friction and division. My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) kindly alluded to his background in the Free Church as being part of a sect. I, too, have a background of growing up as a member of a small Evangelical Church. One difference that I notice as a member now of the Anglican community, of which I am very proud, is that at least the Anglican Church divides over matters of substance, such as the ordination of women and transubstantiation. In my

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previous Free Church capacity, we divided over matters such as whether women should wear hats and whether the organ should be played to accompany hymns.

It is essential to focus on the issue of where authority is vested. Some believe that it is vested in the structures here on earth. That is not true. As we know from Matthew, chapter 28, verse 18, Jesus said :

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Therefore, we believe passionately that all authority is vested in Jesus Christ. We try to dilute that authority in to our human structures at our peril. That is the central plank of our belief. That passage from Matthew is from the great commission, and in it Jesus tells his disciples what is their role on earth. It serves as a warning, because the threat of division in the Church is real. The Church of England is taking part in a decade of envangelism. It would be tragic if this great decade, which is fulfilling the mission and great commission set out so clearly in the Bible in the context of authority, were to be diluted by the effects of any division. I urge archbishops, bishops and individuals to make every effort at reconciliation, so that their great mission in this decade will not be diluted in the slightest.

Inconsistencies remain. If one believes that women can be baptised into the Church of England and be ordained into the priesthood, as we do, a division remains in the sense that women may not become bishops. We have been told that that matter will be dealt with at some future time--but if one accepts that women should be ordained into the priesthood, the entire structure of the Church of England should be open to them. That aspect should be addressed as a matter of urgency.

I am honoured by the opportunity to speak in this debate. It has proved how reflective the House is of the views of the public. The contributions made were broadly in line with views expressed in three houses of the Synod and by many of my constituents.

2.13 pm

Mr. Alison : The time is slipping away and it would be a courtesy to the House, in view of the large number of speeches made in the debate, if I were to attempt to make one or two comments in response.

In the light of the enormous constituency interests represented by the Measures, the House must be glad that so many right hon. and hon. Members found it worth while to attend on a Friday, without any Whip, to contribute so eloquently and passionately. Many old hands will recall debates of earth -shattering national or international importance attended by only two or three Back Benchers on each side of the House, a Minister, a Whip and a few others on the Front Benches. For today's debate on an eternal theme there was only a one-line Whip, yet right hon. and hon. Members are present in large numbers to argue the case--if only that we should not be here arguing the case. That paradox always arises in such debates.

I should like to address first the significant points which the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) raised about the compensation provisions. I want to counter the suggestion that the financial provisions Measure and the financial assistance that it seeks to introduce are in some way niggardly, grudging or limited. They are not. They are specifically tailor-made to help as many people as possible who might suffer financial hardship as a result of their personal and private decision to resign from their official position in the Church of England.

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The provisions in the financial assistance Measure are unique in the Anglican communion where, as the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Ms Short) said, women priests have already been readily accepted. Those priests were accepted, however, without the benefit of the financial provisions that we are seeking to introduce.

The financial assistance takes the form of substantial housing grants, a large resettlement lump sum and regular payments that could last for as long as 10 years in certain circumstances. They are markedly more generous than secular compensation figures. If hon. Members refer to paragraph 13 on page 49 of our Red Book, they will see that had we tried to introduce something comparable to the unfair dismissal terms that are provided for under secular law, the basic and compensatory awards

"would not exceed, in a typical case, one year's stipend (or some £12,000). This, it will be seen, is less than one-third of the value of benefits available under the Measure."

The terms offered under our voluntary scheme are way ahead of anything that is available in the secular sphere.

Mr. Roger Evans : In the secular sphere if one has an employment contract for life up to the age of 72, which is the equivalent of a freehold incumbency, full compensation would be much greater. Is that not the appropriate comparison?

Mr. Alison : I always think that my hon. Friend would have made a formidable advocate if we had sought to include in the Measure tight and detailed provisions for particular circumstances, individuals and categories. I could just imagine hearing my hon. Friend arguing his case before a judge and trying to get the last squeeze out of the compensation lemon.

It is precisely because we do not believe that we should introduce such a watertight, technical compensation package that we have gone for the broad- brush approach in an attempt to help people in different circumstances. That is why the compensation provisions have not been spelt out as definitively as my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Miss Widdecombe) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) would have wished.

I will remind the House of the reason why we have made two separate provisions in the compensation Measure, a standard scheme and a discretionary scheme, the latter under clause 5. The schemes are entirely designed to try to maximise the scope for inclusiveness. Many variations will occur in individual circumstances, even under the tailor-made scheme for incumbents. However, there will be so many variations of the sort that my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone referred to in her illustrative example of a missionary with 30 years service abroad, so it will be much better to have a discretionary scheme alongside the model scheme.

Hon. Members will not have failed to notice that the standard scheme makes provision for application for those who are included under the standard scheme for application to the compensatory scheme. Those in the standard scheme can have that topped up with further discretion. That means that the discretionary scheme will be able to offer more than the model scheme.

Several hon. Members rose --

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Mr. Alison : I feel that, because of the limit on time, I shall give way to the hon. Member for Birkenhead, who first raised the matter. I shall also give way--for fear of the wrath of womanhood--to my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman). Mr. Frank Field rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I clearly heard the hon. Gentleman say that he would give way to the hon. Lady. I am sorry if he has changed his mind, but will he clarify to whom he is giving way?

Mr. Alison : I am sorry if there has been some indecision. I will give way to my female colleague first, and then to the hon. Gentleman.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman Is not it correct that if the report simply included those who had been ordained many cases would be covered?

Mr. Alison : It is not confined to those who have been ordained. There will be individuals and lay people in organisations outside the parochial ministry. The scheme will also apply to those who are ordained in those extra-parochial ministries and to those fixed in the full model scheme. There will be interplay between both structures so that the maximum amount--a generous amount, far exceeding the compensation available in secular schemes--can be offered to those who are suffering real hardship. It is a good scheme for those suffering real hardship.

Mr. Frank Field : The concern of those who have raised the issue of compensation has not been whether people will gain the basic compensation plus top-up payments, but whether some people will be excluded altogether.

I wish to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman that may determine how some of us vote, although not on the major motion. He has given a number of examples of people who will not be covered by any statutory entitlement. Does he expect those examples which were cited in the debate to gain compensation under the discretionary proposals which he has described?

Mr. Alison : I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has made clear to me- -I hope I have got it right--that he is worried that the discretionary scheme may exclude certain categories or individuals. That does not mean that they will not get enough money if they manage to get into the scheme, but rather that their particular category will not fit in with the discretionary scheme.

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman on the matter. The report mentions on page 35, for example,

"missionaries serving abroad, forces chaplains, school and college chaplains and lay employees of organisations in which membership of the Church of England is a condition of employment."

I can assure my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal that the individuals about whom he is concerned will undoubtedly secure financial assistance under the discretionary scheme. The same applies to the case that was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone.

Several hon. Members rose--

Mr. Alison : I must press on, as I have only six minutes before we reach the end of the debate.

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I will pursue the point made by the hon. Member for Birkenhead. If we had tried to make an exhaustive list of those who might be eligible under the discretionary scheme, it would have run into several pages of schedule and would almost certainly still leave out someone whom it was necessary to include.

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