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Mr. Snape : I congratulate the hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone) on the succinct and relevant points that he has just made. We shall all listen with interest to the Minister's reply.
I reiterate the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) about the future of light maintenance depots. I am not sure whether Saltley depot near Birmingham falls into that category, but I suspect that it does. It was featured in a recent issue of Railnews, the staff magazine of what is left of British Rail. The article said that the depot provided a vital service to various sectors of British Rail in the Birmingham area--for example, it refuels hundreds of locomotives each working month.
It worries me that if depots such as Saltley are disposed of by the franchising director regardless of their operational necessity, they might be so disposed of because of their value on the property market--always supposing that the property market ever picks up again under the present Administration. The people who work at such depots would appreciate some assurance from the Minister that safeguards will be provided to ensure that the franchising director cannot dispose of useful operational assets solely for their property value.
In passing, I wish to reflect on the line to Southend. I listened with interest to the comments of the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor). He made his customary passionate defence of the interests of his constituents. I do not complain about it. I commend him on it. Unfortunately, the London-Tilbury-Southend line was modernised before it became part of the London midland and Scottish empire. To demonstrate to the southerners that the
London-Tilbury-Southend line was sound, it was electrified and resignalled to the highest possible standards many years ago. The problem is that, when so much of the Victorian signalling of British Rail still remains, lines such as London-Tilbury-Southend go the back of the queue when it comes to modernisation in later years. The hon. Member for Southend, East specifically asked the Minister whether the London-Tilbury-Southend line was profitable. I am not sure whether the Minister, who answers most questions as ably as he possibly can, is in a position to answer that question. The hon. Gentleman might be aware that, under the Railways Act 1974, the financial performance of individual stretches of railway lines ceased to be compiled--in my view, it was a fairly inexact science before the 1974 Act came into force--and the overall subsidy paid to British Rail since 1974 has swamped the sort of detailed information that the hon. Gentleman requested.
Under the terms of the amendments, it appears that the Minister might be in a position to answer that question some time in the future. Indeed, as far as the future of the London-Tilbury-Southend line is concerned, he might well say that it will be profitable. Sir Teddy Taylor indicated dissent.
Mr. Snape : The hon. Member for Southend, East will not get any more exact answer than that. If the London-Tilbury-Southend line is profitable, it is because the track and signalling costs have been stripped and given to Railtrack.
I hope that I do not have to convince the hon. Gentleman that carrying lots of passengers to London in the morning and taking them home again at night is not a profitable way
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of tying up assets worth millions of pounds for 24 hours a day. Under the proposals, if the track and signalling are given to the regulator, the lines may well be profitable.The hon. Gentleman did not commend the taxpayer generally and the public sector as a whole on providing new signalling on the London--Tilbury-- Southend line. I do not think that he received a satisfactory reply from the Minister about the prospects for new rolling stock. Under existing ownership, I understand that 10-year-old or 12-year-old rolling stock is to be cascaded--that is the beloved word of senior management of British Rail- -from other parts of the country. That may or may not fit the bill under the new arrangements, but I think that it is the best that the Minister will be able to promise.
I shall ask the Minister some specific questions about the main railway station in the west midlands, Birmingham New Street. He will be aware that, under the existing fragmented, albeit publicly owned, railway system, virtually every sector of British Rail, including Network SouthEast services, serves Birmingham New Street. That station is regarded as the rail crossroads of western Europe. It is possible, although not always convenient, to get from virtually anywhere in England, Scotland and Wales to anywhere else by changing at Birmingham. Surely it should worry the Minister that, under the terms of the amendments, it would be possible to flog off Birmingham New Street to the highest bidder.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson) referred to some of the commercial outlets at other railway stations. Under the current arrangements, it is possible to buy a whole range of commercial goods, including socks, ties, knickers, hot dogs, Coca-Cola, hamburgers and cheese rolls at outlets at Birmingham New Street. Under the wonderful system proposed, we will have separate booking offices for the different privatised companies.
Under this fragmented, albeit publicly owned, system, it is possible to imagine that there will be a while range of booking office windows at Birmingham New Street, like an airport check-in lounge. If we have such booking office windows and commercial outlets as well, and if the station is privately owned, it is not difficult to imagine the sort of chaos that could ensue. Under the present system, although one can buy a whole range of goods at Birmingham New Street if one wants to, one cannot travel from England's second city, Birmingham, to England's third city, Manchester, and back after 6 o'clock in the evening. It was Sir Bob Reid mark one who gave the reason for that. He said :
"It is not our role or function to run trains that are desirable. It is our role and function to run trains that are profitable." Under the brave new world of the privately owned railway, it is difficult to believe that such services will be restored and that once the station is sold to a private operator, the main concern of the operator will be the welfare and safe passage of rail passengers, as against the interests of the commercial outlets that already exist and those that the owner of Birmingham New Street will seek to attract in the future. I hope that the Minister can give me some reassurance on that matter.
I have a couple of other facts that the Minister should bear in mind. Although it is possible to drink Coca-Cola by the gallon at Birmingham New Street, it is possible to get to the toilets only if one pays 10p for a platform ticket. Toilets on stations are not open around the clock, although the outlets often appear to be. Will the new owners be
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compelled to provide the sort of lavatory facilities that we expect the public sector to provide, albeit at a price, under the present system, or will they be free to make as much money as possible commercially without worrying too much about the welfare or comfort of future passengers?Mr. McAllion : I was delighted to hear that the Minister recently visited Southend and received a warm reception. I recommend that he revisit Southend next Friday when the civil service trade unions will be demonstrating in opposition to the Government's market-testing proposals. I am sure that he will receive an even warmer reception if he shows up at the Customs and Excise building next Friday.
Sir Teddy Taylor : Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Customs and Excise has won every one of its market tests and that is has won every proposal put out for tender? Therefore, does he accept that, far from Customs and Excise in Southend being a threat, it has shown that it is so efficient that no one else can beat it?
Mr. McAllion : If the hon. Gentleman really believes that, he should go to the meeting next Friday and explain his position to the civil service trade unions in Southend.
At least the Minister was honest when he said that the main purpose of the amendments is to deal with the Government's proposals for railway stations. I shall concentrate mainly on that. The Minister drew a distinction between what he called "large stations" and the remainder of the stations. He said that large stations were those that were on commercially valuable sites close to the centre of large cities. For example, 188,000 passengers pass through Victoria station in London every day, and the station has retail space of some 47,500 sq ft.
It is easy to understand why the private sector would be interested in obtaining a long-term lease for one of the large stations. People will be falling over each other to get their hands on such valuable property. I am sure that the Minister will have no problem in selling large stations to the private sector, but, by his own admission, he said that there are only about two dozen such stations around Britain.
There are 2,500 stations around Britain, so what about the other 2, 476? Will the private sector be equally interested in them? The Minister must give us more details about the proposals that are likely to be put in place for the remainder of the stations in Britain, other than the large, valuable and strategically placed stations.
A number of key stations are more middle sized. I am referring to stations that might be described as having a substantial or significant commercial potential--I hope that we can at least agree on what we mean by "substantial" or "significant"--or those that are in important passenger centres. I understand that the private sector might be interested in those stations as well. Indeed, train operators might be interested in taking out franchises for such stations. Will all the remaining 2,476 stations be classed as middle-sized stations, or will some stations fall outside either those two categories?
What will happen to the very small stations which count passengers in hundreds rather than thousands, or possibly even less than hundreds? What will happen to stations that are located not just far from the centres of cities but far from the cities all together? For example, ScotRail has been put out to franchise as a single bid. Will ScotRail be required to take on the franchise for every existing railway
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station in Scotland? If that is not a requirement, when it takes on the franchises for the services, will it be able to say that it is not interested in taking over some stations because they are too small, require too much investment and do not have enough passengers? Will it be able to say that in its commercial judgment those stations cannot be run properly?Under the Government's proposals, what will happen to such stations? The Minister has not made that clear and I hope that when he replies to the debate he will mention the small stations that do not have commercial potential. Will train operators be required to take on such stations as part of their franchise? I understand that train operators will lease the station from Railtrack and will operate it for the same duration as the franchise for the train service. I also understand that franchises are to be for seven, 10 or 15 years.
Will an operator who is required to take on a station for, say, seven years make a significant investment in that station when, at the end of seven years, he may lose the franchise for the service and, therefore, for the station? Any train operator who is told that he has to take on 25, 30 or 40 small stations will not be prepared to invest in them if he has a franchise of only seven years.
8.30 pm
Mr. Wilson : I am sure that my hon. Friend will remember that in Committee the Minister said dismissively that it would be ridiculous for the franchising director to lay down when lights were to be switched off at Basildon station--for Basildon, we can read anywhere else in the country. My hon. Friend will remember that, in Committee, the Opposition said that an operator who wanted to get rid of off-peak or inconvenient services could use power over stations as a powerful, manipulative weapon.
Mr. McAllion : My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. If an operator is required by his franchise to run a series of small rural stations, he may close them at 6 o'clock in the evening, thus making it unnecessary to stop at them. Such services could be completely undermined by the franchisee, who would have the power to say that the stations would not be kept open after a certain time at night. Will such matters be negotiated with the operator, will there be give and take, or will the franchiser be able to agree with the franchisee about closing stations because no one is prepared to take them on? I should like a reassurance that the two stations in my constituency, Dundee Central and Broughty Ferry, will be required to be kept open by whoever takes over the ScotRail franchise or the east coast main line franchise, the only two services which run through there. A train operator who takes on a franchise for any station will also be required to meet agreed and specified responsibilities on routine maintenance at the station. Will a train operator who is running the service to make a profit be interested in taking on the routine maintenance of an isolated small rural station? I do not think so.
Will there be an independent station operator, separate from the train operator and from Railtrack, for large stations? In the consultation document which was issued on this matter, the Minister states :
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"It is vital that there is a single chain of command to deal with emergencies, and this will be a requirement of the station operators safety case. The station operator will have to demonstrate to the Regulator that he has the management capacity to operate a station efficiently and safely. As part of this process he will need to prepare a satisfactory safety case."Is there not a danger that the people who are best placed to exploit the commercial trading potential of a station--for example, Hanson or Marks and Spencer--may not be the best people to whom to give the responsibility for the safe operation of that station? Conversely, if the franchise is given to those who are best qualified to run the station safely, they may not be the best people to make the most money out of the station. Under the Government's proposals it is not impossible to surmise that Group 4 will bid for the operation of a large railway station, and that would not be regarded by anyone as a welcome development.
The cost of operating a station could be recouped by means of the charges that are placed on operators and others who use the station. If a station operator passes his costs on to the train operators who are using the station, the train operators will simply pass the costs to the customers, the fare-paying travellers. That is why some Conservative Members have spoken about assurances that there will be no implications for fare rises. Such an assurance is essential. Lords amendment No. 37, which is not in this group, deletes clause 25(4), which states :
"A franchise agreement may include provisions with respect to the fares to be charged to persons using the franchised services." Therefore, the Minister is removing from the franchise agreement the ability of the franchiser to say that fares cannot be increased beyond a certain level. That seems to be giving freedom to those who operate the services and those who operate the stations to charge whatever they like to ensure profits, irrespective of what that may mean for people using the stations, their services and the trains that run through them.
Mr. Gunnell : I have some questions about clause 5, which deals with the general duties of the franchising director. Those duties were illuminated by the advice and objectives that were sent by the Secretary of State to the franchising director. That fits fully into the part of the Bill that we seek to amend. Subsection (1)(b) states that any payments to which the paragraph applies will have to achieve those objectives "economically and efficiently". The franchising director will have to assume that the person who receives the franchise will achieve any objectives given to him by the Secretary of State economically and efficiently. Those objectives have been spelt out.
I presume that the term "economically" applies to the person who is willing to bid the most to take on the job ; therefore, it is about how much income there will be. From whose perspective will efficiency be considered? The efficiency of the train operator is clearly important, but it is slightly different from the passengers' view of efficiency. The operator will want to get his passengers dealt with as efficiently as possible, but facilities are important to the passenger, as hon. Members have said.
What guidance will be given to those who take on the franchises of stations on what should be provided for the benefit of passengers? Uniformity of service will be valuable. That is not to say that stations should have a
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uniform appearance or should apply a uniform total service. However, one would expect a minimum level of service in all stations. Hon. Members will be concerned about parking arrangements at stations. I am sure that they have noted that our passes for British Rail, which sometimes affect the efficiency of our travel arrangements, expire on 31 March next year. What advice will be given, through the franchising director, on the minimum level of service that passengers can expect? How will the different needs of operators, expecially muliple operators, be reconciled? I am concerned about the definition of "efficiency" when applied to the franchising of stations.The Minister has sent out a wider consultation note. Bids are to be judged on efficiency and economy. We know a great deal about British Rail's unique position, a matter that we shall discuss shortly. If I have interpreted the Minister's consultation note correctly, it appears that British Rail's actual record will be given great weight. I presume that that record, as described in the general duties and objectives set for the franchising director, would include the sort of information referred to by the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor).
It would be necessary to know the cost of providing services, adjusted to take account of the new financial and charging arrangements. Can I assume from the paragraph headed "The transfer of risk" that any private sector operator's bid cannot be comparable with that of British Rail because the risk will have been transferred from the public sector to the private sector?
The consultation note contains a fair amount on investment and what, under the general duties of the franchising director, the Secretary of State expects in investment. The Minister is aware that I am especially concerned about investment in rolling stock. Throughout the summer I have raised with him and his Department the question of moving forward the ordering of rolling stock for the newly electrified West Yorkshire line. The cascading process, which hon. Members have referred to and defined, is occurring in West Yorkshire and old rolling stock is to be refurbished at a cost of more than £3 million.
When the franchising director takes up his post, what initiatives can he take to ensure that there is investment and that the ordering of rolling stock is proceeded with? I pay tribute to the Minister for his efforts-- with others, with myself, with the company concerned and with the West Yorkshire PTA--to solve the dilemma of how to push forward the current rolling stock order. It is significant that, under the Bill, even the Minister's best efforts--it is clear that he has made considerable effort-- could not solve the problem. I want to know how the franchising director, under the general duties laid down for him, can break the impasse in West Yorkshire which is hindering the private sector railway engineering industry in doing its job and thriving.
Dr. Marek : I was recently in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Gunnell) and I noted the number of class 142s at Leeds station. They are most unsatisfactory vehicles and I sympathise with my hon. Friend because his whole region has them in and around it. Other regions have managed to get rid of them.
We must not forget that stations exist to help passengers to go about their business--from where they want to start to where they want to finish. A station does not exist as an
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end in itself ; it is something that helps passengers. It may be true that facilities are needed on stations as people should be able to buy tickets and refreshments and to obtain information. However, there is a line to be drawn between that sort of provision and turning stations into shopping malls, markets and places where developers and others with capital seek to make a return on that capital, irrespective of whether that helps the passenger to go about his business.8.45 pm
There is a danger that stations could be so built up and clogged up that during busy times passengers could be impeded. Victoria station, although a little better now, was like that. It has always been claustrophobic on the high numbered platforms because there are too many shops. I do not blame British Rail, because it has to get money from wherever it can under the present system, but it has allowed too many shops. When the Bill becomes an Act, as I fear it will, and private interests take over stations, the criterion under which they operate will not be that of seeking to aid the passenger to go about his business.
There is already a nonsensical position under which Regional Railways does not want to pay to stop at one platform but might pay to stop at another platform ; InterCity does not want to stop at one platform but will stop at another, provided that it is for no longer than is absolutely necessary. The convenience of the passenger does not come into play when it comes to trains stopping at stations, especially where passengers want to make connections.
Once a station is in private hands, different charges can be made for different trains to stop at different times on different platforms. The market, which the Government think knows best, might know what is best for the market and for those who want to make money out of passengers, but that might not be the same as providing the best possible service with the least inconvenience to passengers. I am worried about what the Government are doing through the clause. I shall wait and see what happens.
There will come a time when there is a different Administration. This incompetent Government are on their last legs because they have introduced such stupid Bills-- [Interruption.] The Minister for Transport in London laughs, but the public know that they were had in 1992. People will not forget that the Government said, "Vote Conservative on 9 April and the recovery will begin on 10 April." People in my constituency have certainly not forgotten that. When the Opposition are in government, I hope that we will take as our criterion the convenience of passengers. If any clause in any lease goes against the spirit of that criterion, we should either introduce legislation to take away such leases--without allowing the lessees to make any gain--or impose conditions on those leases to ensure that certain criteria are met ; in that way, passengers could conveniently change trains and have convenient access to or exit from stations. If, at a suitable time, the Opposition can lay down those criteria clearly and succinctly, that will give pause for thought to any get-rich-quick cowboy developer or speculator whom the Government have in mind to take over the stations once the Bill becomes an Act.
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Mr. Freeman : I shall seek to answer the points that have been raised.
The hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) mentioned a number of issues, which I shall take in sequence. First, he referred to the possibility of double payment by, for example, local authorities or PTE authorities, for the use of stations where they had in the past been responsible for investing and improving the station facilities. I pay tribute to what the PTEs have done. Strathclyde was cited as an example where there has been sustained investment in rolling stock and I hope sincerely that that continues. The Strathclyde PTE--
Mr. Prescott : The Strathclyde authority.
Mr. Freeman : The Strathclyde authority will have my continued support in ensuring that it can place further orders for rolling stock, which I know that it is negotiating.
Mr. Prescott : At least it is not the Minister's money.
Mr. Freeman : It is the taxpayers' money.
I shall now reply to the argument that was made about investment in station assets. We are ensuring that, when the PTEs fund infrastructure improvements from debt they have incurred on their own books, they will not have to pay twice--the financing costs of the debt and also infrastructure charges. We intend that Railtrack will create an obligation on its books and repay the PTE, over a suitable period, sufficient funds to enable those additional charges for the use of assets to be financed by the local authorities. When we discuss the group of amendments about PTEs I will be glad to explain the arrangements that we have in mind.
The hon. Member for Cunninghame, North also asked where the money is to come from for stations. Railtrack is the freeholder and will have ultimate responsibility for all the assets that it owns. It may be that, for franchises where there is responsibility over five, seven or 10 years for running trains on a group of lines and the franchisee wants responsibility for operating and managing the stations, an agreement will be made with the franchisee as to what improvements, repairs and maintenance will be done at the stations. The responsibility will not fall between the two in other words, on neither Railtrack nor the franchisee.
The hon. Gentleman asked me about allocation of cost to the shadow franchises. From 1 April 1994, with Railtrack established, the 25 train- operating companies will have a proper apportionment made of the cost of track. We hope to have financial information generated properly for the first seven franchises that we have nominated, from 1 April 1994, in a form which provides a true and accurate record of the cost of operating trains on those lines.
My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) asked me many questions. I can now be more precise about when financial information will be available about the Fenchurch Street line--the London, Tilbury and Southend line--because we intend that it should be shadow running from 1 April 1994, and that therefore, after the first six months, properly prepared financial information will be available. We shall know what the track charges are ; we shall know what the operating costs are because we shall know the size of the payroll ; we shall know which rolling stock is being used and accurate information will become available. It certainly will be
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available in 1995-96 to the potential franchisees of the line, and I would expect that we shall start franchising that line in early 1995.Therefore, when the hon. Gentleman tables a question asking me what has been the financial record of the line, I shall be able to answer in due corse, although certainly not before the first six months of the line, and, I would expect more accurately at the end of the financial year because when the franchising director lets the franchise that will be public information. In other words, the degree of subsidy required will be publicly known. I hope that that is a clear answer. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East are interested in the line and we can see whether it is profitable. I believe and expect that some fares on the London, Tilbury and Southend line will be reduced.
Sir Teddy Taylor : Hear, hear.
Mr. Freeman : I expect that franchisees for certain off-peak services will experiment with lower fares to increase patronage. I travel on the line in both peak and off peak and I know that there is a capacity available on the line. I would expect the private sector to experiment accordingly.
The hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson) asked me about the manning of stations. I know that she is especially concerned about that, and she is right to be so. British Rail, over the years, has felt constrained by the limitation of its resources--inevitably, in the public sector--to reduce the manning at certain stations.
I would expect that, when we franchise rail services, there will be an improvement in the situation of stations which are either unmanned or partially manned, for two reasons. First I would expect the franchisees, and certainly Railtrack, to experiment with introducing greater commercial activity at some stations. Even quite small stations can benefit from shops, or perhaps even restaurant facilities. [Laughter.] The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) laughs. Let me explain why British Rail cannot do that at the present time.
The hon. Gentleman has not had the experience of setting BR's external financing limit. That is broken down by line of route. The managers have a sum to sccommodation in order to attract the private sector, in what has been a depressed property market, to come on to the stations to develop them. I expect that, as one of the advantages of privatisation, the private sector, without those constraints, will experiment to create more activity at the stations. More activity means greater safety, and greater safety means more passengers.
Mr. Wilson : I am interested in the scenario which the Minister outlines, as it is imaginative and it may happen somewhere. His idea is that restaurants will be opened at stations which are currently unmanned in order to attract more people on to the stations while trains which are under-used run through them. It may happen, but I am sure that the Minister will also want to consider the scenario that I mentioned to my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. McAllion) and which the Minister brought into the debate in Committee.
He made it quite clear that it would not be the Minister's or the franchise director's job to lay down the times when
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there would have to be lights on stations, far less a range of restaurants available to the public on a rent-free basis. Will the Minister consider that other scenario, and will he confirm that it will be at the discretion of the operator, not just whether there are restaurants on the stations where now there are none, but whether there are lights on in the stations and whether the operator of the stations and the route will be allowed to run down the service to get rid of off-peak services?Mr. Freeman : The hon. Gentleman proceeds from the assumption that the private sector is there to cream off the profits, make the service deteriorate, increase fares substantially and cut investment. I do not proceed on that basis. All the evidence of privatisations during the past 14 years flies in the face of his assertion. I do not expect the private sector to do anything other than encourage more passengers to use railway trains. That will perhaps answer the hon. Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Gunnell). The rooted hostility of the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North towards the private sector is irrational. I expect it to want more patronage, not less.
I was in the middle of trying to answer the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate. In certain cases, the private sector will want to experiment to encourage patronage, by hiring additional staff to work on platforms or on trains. I believe that Network SouthEast has lost a share of the market-- although I do not blame it--because it has had to operate within cash limits under Labour and Conservative Governments, as I have described. There is evidence, however, that more people would travel by train if they felt that they were more secure--especially women late at night. I believe that such investment by the private sector would be repaid.
The hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) asked about British Rail Maintenance Ltd. at Eastleigh. There has been a remarkable change in the technology involved in building trains. Whatever happens--whether British Rail is privatised or not--we must acknowledge that that change will reduce the amount of work available for heavy maintenance depots. We must face the fact that considerable surplus capacity is likely in that section of the industry. It is important that we do not limit the opportunities open to the workers at Eastleigh or the amount of business that they can bid for. In Committee, I considered whether it was sensible to assign each BRML depot to one of the rolling stock leasing companies. I have come to the firm conclusion--one that I think is shared by those who work at Eastleigh--that that would be wrong, because one would be limiting its work.
Mr. Denham rose --
Mr. Freeman : I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman on that subject, but perhaps I may finish my argument first. Eastleigh would then be limited to perhaps only one third of the total rolling stock maintenance market. The more efficient the plant, the more business it can obtain, and if Eastleigh is right that it is one of the most efficient plants, as I believe it is, it should wish to bid for work from all the rolling stock companies.
The present arrangements are not satisfactory, because work is essentially assigned by British Rail. Eastleigh should have the opportunity to compete across the board. As the hon. Member for Itchen said, it is true that we plan to establish contracts between British Rail and Eastleigh--and probably the rolling stock leasing companies,
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although not necessarily--to guarantee a work load for some years. I cannot be specific about how much and for how many years. Those contracts would ensure the viability of the business before it passes into the private sector.Mr. Denham : Although it is perhaps a contradiction of what the Minister has just said, does he accept that last week the council and the trade unions representing workers from BRML asked that it be allocated to a leasing company? The evidence therefore suggests that BRML workers favour that option. Does the Minister also accept that 90 per cent. of its work derives from Network SouthEast rolling stock, largely because of the third rail electrification system, which means that it has a specific type of rolling stock and therefore of maintenance? The allocation of BRML to the leasing company most likely to provide such rolling stock would be the best way to secure its future.
9 pm
Mr. Freeman : We are dealing with the livelihoods of many people, and I am happy to keep an open mind on the final structure. I do not want to do anything that would needlessly put anyone's jobs in jeopardy. I have already given a commitment to my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Mr. Milligan)--I am happy to extend it to the hon. Gentleman--that I shall stay in close touch so that we do not needlessly complicate what is already a difficult situation due to the over-capacity in the industry. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take those words in the spirit in which they are offered. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone) asked me three questions. I thank him for his kind comments. I know of his great commitment, both in his constituency and throughout the south-east, to ensuring that we have a good railway system, and that services improve rather than deteriorate. First, he asked who would have responsibility for stations and for their maintenance, development and so forth. He asked whether it would be the British Rail Property Board or some other body.
Railtrack, as the freeholder, will be responsible for all stations and will decide when it is appropriate to delegate any financial responsibility to the franchisees, who will be responsible for maintenance and development for a relatively short period in the life of a station--five, seven or 10 years. I am already impressed with Railtrack's plans. A competent management is being put in place, and I look forward to Railtrack pursuing a positive policy to improve stations. I can assure my hon. Friend that the Secretary of State for Transport and I will watch carefully to see that that policy is applied.
I assure my hon. Friend, too, that the closure policy, which my hon. Friend the Minister for Transport in London will deal with shortly, will cover stations. Neither Railtrack nor a franchisee will be able to close a station precipitously. We set out at length our policy on that aspect. That process will take up to 12 months. As to towns and villages having railway stations which might not be covered by listed building consents, I give my hon. Friend the assurance that planning law will continue to apply to any change of use away from the main business of the statutory undertaking-- that is, running a railway station--to some other purpose, such as the running of a
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supermarket. Listed building consent already applies and will continue to do so. We want to maintain our excellent railway stations, particularly those in Sussex.The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) asked about disposing of assets for commercial value. That will be the responsibility of Railtrack as the freeholder. As to Birmingham New Street, I see nothing wrong in having a single operator of that station being responsible for the station's commercial redevelopment and improvement, with several different franchisees operating through it. Birmingham New Street is already showing its age and I see no objection to a sole operator with many different train operators providing services.
The hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Mudie) asked what is meant by the transfer of risk in the draft document which sets out the franchising director's objectives. It means that when the franchising director considers bids from the public and private sector, he will take into account that a public sector bid does not involve the transfer of risk. If the public sector gets its bid wrong and more subsidy is required, the taxpayer has to pay, so there may be some premium, advantage or benefit attached to a private sector bid which takes the risks.
I was asked about the role of the franchising director in West Yorkshire passenger transport executive rolling stock. He will be able to designate assets so that they roll over from one franchise to another. They will continue in use for the full length of a lease. The director will also be able to give assurances about the operation of the railway administration orders. I look forward to making further progress on the rolling stock lease. I am determined that it will come to fruition.
Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus, East) : The Minister dwelt on the commercial prospects for larger stations ; but will he comment on the rule for smaller stations? How will his plans affect them? Will he answer the questions put by the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. McAllion)? What future does the Minister see for smaller, rural stations?
Mr. Freeman : I apologise for not dealing with that point, which was also raised, by implication, by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek). Smaller stations will almost invariably be run by the franchisees and will remain under the ownership of Railtrack, the freeholder. It will not be within the gift of the franchisee operating the train services or Railtrack to close any particular station. We have an elaborate, clear and comprehensive closure procedure which involves not only the consultative committees but the regulator and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport.
Mr. McAllion : The Minister said that smaller stations
"will almost invariably be run by the franchisees".
That suggests that ScotRail, for example, will be required to take on all the small rural stations in Scotland and continue to run them as part of the franchise that it assumes on 1 April. Will the Minister confirm that that is the case?
Mr. Freeman : I think that by implication that is the case, for the simple reason that when we come to franchise ScotRail, it will be franchised on the basis of all the rail services running in Scotland. By definition, that will involve the active use of all the stations, small and large,
Column 104
at which rail services call. Therefore, the practical implication is yes. I commend the amendment to the House.Amendment agreed to .
Lords amendment : No. 5, in page 6, line 5, at end insert ("or
((ii) the operation of additional railway assets under or by virtue of any franchise agreement or any provision of sections 26 and 32 to 42 below ;"). Motion made, and Question proposed , That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.-- [Mr. Freeman.] Question put : --
The House divided : Ayes 319, Noes 231.
Division No. 379] [9.09 pm
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Ancram, Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Aspinwall, Jack
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowden, Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs. Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dickens, Geoffrey
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, John
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
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