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T H EP A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 27 APRIL 1992]
FORTY-SECOND YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 231
TWENTY-FIFTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1992-93
House of Commons
Monday 1 November 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Citibank International Bill
[Lords]
Unibank Bill
[Lords]
Read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.
Oral Answers to Questions
WALES
Cardiff Airport
1. Mr. Denzil Davies : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to use Cardiff Wales airport in the course of his ministerial duties.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. John Redwood) : I last used Cardiff Wales airport on 8 September. I have no current plans to use it in the near future, but I will use it whenever my ministerial duties so require. I and my hon. Friends are keen to promote it as a good airport, and to see it as an important part of the south Wales economy.
Mr. Davies : Is the Secretary of State aware that the services to Europe, and in particular to Germany, from Cardiff Wales airport are abysmal? Manufacturing firms in my constituency and throughout south Wales, increasingly
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require to get their executives and technicians to places such as Frankfurt and Dusseldorf and back in a day. That cannot be done at present. Will the Secretary of State spend his Department's time and resources to establish a daily return flight, five days a week, from Cardiff to Frankfurt?Mr. Redwood : I am very keen to promote Cardiff Wales airport. I shall organise a meeting with business users and airlines to bring them together and to get more business through the airport. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State was recently on the inaugural flight of the new service to Manchester. The Cardiff Wales airport needs more publicity and the right hon. Gentleman might think it a good idea to use the airport as neutral ground on which the Labour party ladies can get together and settle their differences. That would be newsworthy and promote the airport.
Mr. Sweeney : Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating Cardiff Wales airport on its profits last year? Bearing in mind that those profits represent a return of only 1 per cent. on capital for the taxpayer, does my right hon. Friend agree that now is the time to consider privatising Cardiff Wales airport?
Mr. Redwood : As my hon. Friend says, things have been moving in the right direction. I was pleased that the number of passengers using the airport increased by 50 per cent. last year to 900,000 and that the airport is in the black. We will look at all the options for the future of the airport. Anything that will increase business and make the airport a better asset for the people of south Wales will be high on my agenda.
Mr. Rogers : The Secretary of State will realise, or will have been informed, that Cardiff Wales airport was set up by a consortium of local authorities, and funded and paid for by the people of south Wales, not by Her Majesty's Government. Is not the proposition that the airport might be privatised another example of the Secretary of State's skulduggery and thuggery whenever he embarks on privatisation? He has no right to privatise an asset that does not belong to the Welsh Office. The airport belongs to the
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people of south Wales, who have invested money in it over many years, and there is a great deal of anger about the proposition to steal private property yet again.Mr. Redwood : Were we to decide to privatise the airport, the money would not be lost to the people of Wales. The hon. Gentleman might learn something of value were he to look at the great success that other airports in the United Kingdom have had since being privatised. Privatisation is an option at the moment, not a confirmed policy. I intend to consult and think about it before announcing such a policy.
Mr. Richards : When my right hon. Friend uses Cardiff Wales airport, will he take great care to avoid the harridans who have a tendency to prey on the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies)?
Mr. Redwood : I will, indeed, try to avoid those harridans. My hon. Friend has raised an interesting point about the in-fighting in the Welsh Labour party among its female members. I am delighted to note that the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), who is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench, has been a beneficiary of the strange voting practices and received a better vote this year. I think that he owes that to the Welsh Labour party ladies.
Mr. Morgan : Does the Secretary of State agree that Cardiff Wales airport is a successful and profitable enterprise, which is a credit to its municipal parents, the three county councils of Glamorgan? Would he also like to reassure the employees at that airport that he does not propose to place it in the hands of one of those funny-money residuary bodies run by the usual Tory placemen from central casting and Central Office? Their action, in making a forced sale of that airport, would undoubtedly cost many millions of pounds in lower receipts to the Glamorgan ratepayers who set up that airport.
Mr. Redwood : I shall look at all the options for the future of that airport with the single question in mind as to what would be best for the south Wales economy. I agree with the Opposition that the airport is important to that economy. We need to increase services out of the airport in order to service the business community and other passengers. That would be my intention and there are a number of ways in which that may be pursued. My immediate task is to try to win more business for the airport in the way that I have already described.
Homelessness
2. Mr. Jon Owen Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people were recognised as homeless in Cardiff and Wales at the last date for which figures are available.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones) : The figures are 671 and 2,703 respectively
Mr. Jon Owen Jones : I do not know where the Minister got those figures, because I am informed that Cardiff city council had to cope with 2,700 inquiries on homelessness last year, which represents a 26 per cent. increase on the previous year. In the past six months, the number of inquiries has increased by a further 12 per cent.
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What extra help will the Welsh Office give to local authorities such as Cardiff to cope with the huge number of homeless, which has increased as a result of Government policy?Mr. Gwilym Jones : The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is that the figure of 671 came from Cardiff city council and the figure relating to Wales came from the other Welsh local authorities. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that we have supported a project worth £800,000 specifically designed to try to help single, vulnerable, homeless people in Cardiff. I attended the launch of that project a while ago and I went to see one of the new homes provided by it, which was, incidentally, in the hon. Gentleman's constituency.
Mr. Jonathan Evans : Can my hon. Friend confirm that the majority of cases of homelessness are attributable to family breakdowns and to disputes between relatives, parents and the like? Those cases represent the big increase in homelessness to which reference has been made and which is recorded in the figures that have been produced by the Welsh Office, on the basis of information provided by Welsh local authorities.
Mr. Jones : My hon. Friend is correct. It is important to keep those figures in perspective. Of all local authority lettings and housing association lettings, only approximately 25 per cent. are taken by homeless people.
Mr. Alex Carlile : Bearing in mind the evidence that homelessness is increasing in Welsh rural areas as well as in the urban areas, does the Minister agree that it would be quite unacceptable if Government funding for Tai Cymru--Housing for Wales--were the victim of public expenditure cuts?
Mr. Jones : I acknowledge the question that the hon. and learned Gentleman has raised and the importance of funding for Housing for Wales will be given the fullest consideration.
Mr. Wigley : Is the Minister aware that of the 6,000 homeless cases involving children and/or pregnancies in Wales last year, only 500 involved pregnant single mothers, and of those only 47 were allotted permanent accommodation? In those circumstances, is not the Welsh Office going over the top in drawing attention to the plight of those people, rather than that of the 99 per cent. of homeless who do not fall into that category and who experience enormous difficulties in trying to find somewhere to live?
Mr. Jones : No, Madam Speaker. The Welsh Office is certainly not going over the top on that issue. In the interests of all the genuine cases who need housing, it is right that there should not be any unjustified fast track approach to obtaining either council accommodation or housing association accommodation.
Mr. Murphy : Does the Minister agree that he should go back to Cardiff city council to check his figures, since the total number of inquiries from homeless families in that city is nearly 3,000 and nearly 1,200 people were housed in temporary accommodation over the past year? Does he accept that a vital ingredient of family stability is a permanent home and cannot he see that the release of
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council capital receipts to build homes for thousands of homeless people in Wales is worth more than 100 moralising speeches about single parents?Mr. Jones : As I said to the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Jones) the figures quoted were given to us by Welsh local councils, especially by Cardiff city council. I know of no money sitting idly not being used effectively for debt redemption. If there were any such moneys sitting idly, I would look to the councillors to pursue that situation energetically and if they failed to act, I would look to the local electors to show their disapproval at the earliest opportunity.
Poverty
3. Mr. Llew Smith : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what response he has made to the pamphlet, "The Politics of Poverty in Blaenau Gwent", a copy of which was sent to him in September.
Mr. Redwood : I saw the pamphlet for the first time today and, like much Labour policy-making, it is long on gloom and doom and short on decent remedies. The best way of curing poverty is to create more jobs. That is why on 20 October I published details of the new five-year programme for the valleys to regenerate Blaenau Gwent and the other valley communities.
Mr. Smith : Is the Minister aware, especially after reading the pamphlet today, that, after 14 years of Tory Government, Blaenau Gwent still has one of the worst health problems in the United Kingdom? Is he also aware that in the past week, phase 1 of the Blaenau Gwent hospital commenced and that the commitment was given that phase 2 will commence in 1995? Will he reinforce that commitment and assure the House that the second phase will include a stroke unit? Is the Minister aware that the document was sent to the Welsh Office some 28 days ago and does it not say something about the operations of the Welsh Office that it has come into his hands only today?
Mr. Redwood : I am told that the pamphlet was not addressed to me so it was perfectly proper that it did not go straight to my desk. I have now read it, but, as I said to the hon. Gentleman, we have a big programme for rejuvenating and regenerating the valleys. I hope that he joins me in welcoming Sega as a new investor in Wales, through its links with AB Electronics and the 50 new jobs that that will generate at Abercynon. I hope that he welcomes the Treforest news of STNP creating 129 new jobs as well as 755 new jobs at Tesco. That is what matters--producing new jobs for the valleys, which the hon. Gentleman is asking for in his pamphlet.
Yes, of course, we will ensure high-quality health services and ensure that the right health facilities are made available for his area as elsewhere in the valleys, as set out in the valleys document that I sent to him.
Mr. Ron Davies : None of that is of any relevance whatever to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith). Is not it clear from his report that, in 1993, a previously unreported depth of poverty and deprivation that arises directly from unemployment and low pay exists in Wales. It is the direct responsibility of the Government and it is an absolute disgrace after 14 years in office. My hon. Friend should be congratulated on his report rather than criticism being
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thrown against him. Does not the Secretary of State realise that we need more positive action on jobs and low pay and more investment in housing, health and education? Is not it time that the Tory party started facing up to its responsibilities, rather than indulging in the hypocritical moralising of other people?Mr. Redwood : The hon. Gentleman will not find me unwilling to accept responsibilities. I have set out in the valleys initiative the Government's major expenditure programmes for the next five years. They are geared to bringing in a lot more private sector investment as well, which is what the valleys require. The programme was very successful during its first five years and the number of long-term unemployed fell importantly and dramatically. I accept that much more needs to be done ; I have never made any secret of that. The hon. Gentleman should listen and should read the valleys programme initiative because he will see there a bold vision of the future for a better south Wales, based on more jobs, more prosperity and more investment, which I hope that the Opposition welcome.
Beef
5. Mr. Fabricant : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what initiatives he has taken to encourage the promotion of Welsh beef for consumption overseas.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : Welsh Food Promotions Ltd. was set up more than two years ago with a remit to promote all types of food produced in Wales, including beef. The company works closely with Food from Britain in promoting overseas sales.
Mr. Fabricant : My right hon. Friend will be aware of the excellent taste and unique quality of Welsh black cattle. Is he equally aware of the grievous losses suffered by the breeders of Welsh black cattle since the imposition of the ban on exports because of the bovine spongiform encephalopathy scare? Is he aware that Welsh black cattle are fed on natural sources, such as silage in winter and grain in summer? Is he further aware that BSE exists anyway in continental Europe? What can my right hon. Friend do to promote the export of Welsh black cattle to Europe as a valuable earner of deutschmarks?
Sir Wyn Roberts : Of course, I am aware of the difficulties that the restrictions on exporting cattle, put into place as a result of BSE, have brought for many producers, and I sympathise with their position. However, the prohibition on the export of live cattle over six months old applies to all breeds of cattle and as Welsh blacks are among the breed types that have had confirmed cases of BSE, we are not likely to be able to advance the case for special treatment for that breed alone. Although a few cases of BSE have been confirmed in some member states, they are all isolated cases which are linked to feedstuffs imported from the United Kingdom. Exports to other member states are likely to remain restricted for some time yet.
Energy Efficiency
7. Mr. Dafis : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much money has been allocated by his Department to promote energy efficiency within housing in Wales in each of the last five years.
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Mr. Gwilym Jones : It is for local councils to decide how much of the money that is given to them is allocated to energy efficiency schemes for housing.
Mr. Dafis : That is a disappointing response. I hope that, following the remarkable rally on Saturday in Cardiff by Friends of the Earth, the Minister recognises that there is now a formidable coalition in favour of energy efficiency, from social and environmental groups that see the issue as not only addressing the problem of pollution, but enabling people to bring about reductions of as much as 30 per cent. in their fuel bills, while providing important savings in other areas. Will the Minister now join me in congratulating neighbourhood energy action and its contractors on its excellent work? Does he agree that there needs to be a comprehensive programme in the area, which should be a central issue of economic policy as a way in which to bring it to fruition?
Mr. Jones : I should thank the hon. Gentleman for effectively endorsing the lead that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave at the Earth summit in Rio. It behoves all of us to achieve energy efficiency, in the interests of Britain and of the globe generally.
Mr. Alan W. Williams : Rather than putting VAT on fuel and causing hypothermia among elderly people in the winter, why do not the Government introduce a comprehensive home insulation programme? It would have a rapid payback, in perhaps four or five years, and it would help to keep people warm in the winter rather than cause hardship.
Mr. Jones : I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that we are already seeking to carry out such a programme. In our estates partnership programme, it is a requirement that energy efficiency should be considered. Housing for Wales is this week publishing a new consultation document which looks for improved energy efficiency schemes in housing association developments.
Job Safeguards
8. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new proposals he has to safeguard jobs in Wales.
Sir Wyn Roberts : The way in which to safeguard jobs is to ensure a steady economic recovery and sustainable growth. Our strategy--low inflation and sound public finances--does just that. We are also pressing ahead with our policies on deregulation, on encouraging enterprise, and on fighting for open and competitive markets.
Mr. Flynn : Why is the Welsh Office standing by watching so many winning Welsh teams being wrecked? I refer, for example, to the jobs in the brilliantly successful Du Pont group in Pontypool. The Patent Office in Newport is under threat although it has just been awarded a chartermark. Does not the Minister realise that many of the regional policy successes are likely to be destroyed by the Government's mania for privatising everything? Will he give a guarantee today that if privatisation goes ahead, none of the jobs that have come to Wales, such as those at DVOIT in Swansea, the Accounts Services Agency and the Patent Office, will be relocated outside Wales?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The hon. Gentleman is aware that his question about the Patent Office in his constituency is a matter for the Department of Trade and Industry and for
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the President of the Board of Trade. The hon. Gentleman talked about getting rid of jobs. He did not mention all the jobs that have come into Wales. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State talked of today's announcement from Sega. Over the past few weeks, we have had announcements about Hamilton Oil at Connah's Quay in north Wales, and further jobs created by Asat and Aiwa in south Wales.Mr. Matthew Banks : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the best things that the Government can do to safeguard jobs in Wales is to continue the polices of promoting the right economic climate, which have been so successful in promoting existing businesses as well as attracting new business opportunities?
Sir Wyn Roberts : My hon. Friend is quite right and I am reminded that Wales continues to get 20 per cent. of the United Kingdom's inward investment. It is worth remembering also that some 40 per cent. of European investment from outside Europe comes in to the United Kingdom. Our job is to continue that good work and to support the companies that have come here. I am delighted to say that we are doing that through the export missions that we are leading abroad.
Mr. Donald Anderson : Will the Minister look with great care at the special problems of the construction industry in Wales, which is now flat on its back and has many jobs haemorrhaging? Surely that industry is heavily dependent on the public sector. Is there not a real danger that, in the Budget, there will be a twofold pressure on the construction industry, both from national ordering and local government ordering as a result of the pressure on local government expenditure? Will he look at the problems of the construction industry, which can create or destroy so many jobs?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The hon. Gentleman realises only too well that a considerable public sector capital programme exists in Wales. One of the areas for which I am responsible--roads in Wales--is running at a record level of some £200 million a year. Like the Chancellor, I am in the Budget purdah, but I am sure that, unlike the Labour party in the 1970s, we shall seek to protect capital spending even if it means cutting revenue spending.
Mr. John Marshall : Does my right hon. Friend accept that inward investment in Wales would be killed if we introduced a national minimum wage or signed the social charter? Is not it significant that those who seek to sell Wales short will destroy the Welsh economy by the restrictions that they suggest?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The Government are accustomed to hearing Opposition right hon. and hon. Members run down Wales. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. On the one hand, they complain about wage levels in Wales, even though since 1990 wage levels in Wales have been rising at a faster rate than in the rest of Great Britain. At the same time, they argue for the minimum wage, which would certainly be a cause of increased unemployment in Wales.
Mr. Rowlands : Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors have failed hopelessly to safeguard jobs in the south Wales coal mining industry? There are no pits or jobs left in communities such as mine, which has resulted in 40 per cent. of men being either out of work or economically inactive. What new initiative does
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he have to create male jobs and male employment? The right hon. Gentleman should not just wave glossy brochures, which do not contain a new initiative in that respect.Sir Wyn Roberts : Before the hon. Gentleman denigrates the valleys initiative, he should remember that, were it not for that initiative in 1988, we should be 10,000 jobs the poorer in south Wales. He must understand that the programme, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has just extended, means £1 billion of investment in the south Welsh valleys. That will improve the quality of life for the people of the valleys and bring in new jobs.
Mr. Ron Davies : That is an untrue and utterly outrageous claim. In every travel-to-work area in the region covered by the valleys initiative, unemployment rose during the time of that initiative. I draw the attention of the Minister to a speech made by the Secretary of State for Wales at Cliveden on 30 September, when he said :
"in the European Community, a single currency would be bad news." How does the Minister think that that can be reconciled with the European summit decision of last week to press ahead with full economic and monetary union and what Helmut Kohl described as a "very personal commitment" from the British Prime Minister? Is it not clear that there is a massive difference of opinion between the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister? Given that the Secretary of State has lost all credibility, how does he think that he will safeguard his own job, let alone that of anybody else in Wales?
Sir Wyn Roberts : I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State can safeguard himself as well as his job.
On the hon. Gentleman's first point about unemployment in the valleys, United Kingdom unemployment is now more than 24 per cent. higher than it was in 1988 when the first programme began, but in the valleys it is 4.5 per cent. lower, which means that there are 10,000 more people at work in the valleys than there would have been had we followed the national trend.
As to the hon. Gentleman's comments about the events of last week, I am sure that it is right that we should be at the heart of Europe. We understand only too well that arguments about the future course of Europe will proceed and will be with us for a long time to come.
Cereals
9. Mr. Roger Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what criteria he proposes to adopt to identify specialist cereal growers for the purposes of the cereals regime in Wales ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Redwood : I announced on Friday the arrangements that I propose for 1993-94--a division into two regions based on land suitability for growing winter cereals, and cropping patterns in the 1989-91 growing years.
Mr. Evans : I thank my right hon. Friend for that announcement, but the criteria are complex. Why could he not have approached the matter on the basis of simply identifying individual farms?
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Mr. Redwood : The European Community regulation does not permit us to single out individual specialist growers or farms for support. I hope that when my hon. Friend studies the detail he will see that we have endeavoured to produce the right answers on covering specialist growers in the map that we sketched. As my hon. Friend will have noticed, we are out to consultation on the thrust of the matter of the proposals, so if he has a hard case or a difficulty, I hope that he will make his representations either to me or to the Welsh divisional office, which will be only too willing to help his farmers or those in the constituencies of other hon. Members.
Local Government Commissioner
10. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the latest report from the Local Government Commissioner ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Thurnham : Is my hon. Friend aware that the ombudsman's report contains 10 pages of criticism of maladministration by council housing departments? Does he agree that the Government have done more than any Government to boost private home ownership? Is he further aware that the Opposition now have a policy document saying that the private rented sector badly needs a boost?
Mr. Jones : I acknowledge my hon. Friend's point about the Opposition's deathbed conversion to the importance of the private rented sector. Equally, I acknowledge what my hon. Friend said about bad practice in Welsh local authorities. We have been concerned about that for some time. In our agenda for action on housing, we gave a strong warning against political interference, and earlier this year we embarked on a consultation exercise into the housing allocation policies of all councils. We are now considering the replies to that exercise.
Mr. Roy Hughes : If only to safeguard the future of local government, will the Minister sack the inspector who awarded costs against Newport borough council for refusing permission to the American concern Browning Ferris for another waste disposal plant? Will he appreciate that the commissar-like attitude is alien to our democratic traditions in Wales and that the elected councillors were only acting in line with the wishes of the electors?
Mr. Jones : Matters such as that referred to by the hon. Gentleman would be considered in the proper quarters. The inspectors are charged with carrying out inquiries, and they do so to the best of their abilities.
Mr. Jonathan Evans : Does my hon. Friend agree that the report of the local government commissioners illustrates the way in which national institutions are exposing wrongdoing, even by elected local government councillors? Does my hon. Friend alo deal urgently with the issue of housing allocation?
Mr. Jones : I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. He is right in saying that Parliament gives scrutiny to that which needs to be scrutinised. A most amusing suggestion
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which I saw recently was that some examples underline the importance of having a parliament for Wales. I thought that that was really saying that the Opposition is totally ineffective in scrutiny.European Community
11. Mr. Win Griffiths : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the leaders of local government in Wales to discuss EC matters ; and what issues were raised.
Mr. Redwood : I last met leaders of local government on 31 October, when I discussed with them structural funds issues and EC initiatives generally.
Mr. Griffiths : In those discussions, did the local government leaders point out that more than £45 million of European regional development fund money will be lost to local authorities because of the capping policies of the Welsh Office and the Government? Will the Welsh Office and the Secretary of State now take action to revise the rules to enable local authorities in Wales to utilise fully the money available from Europe for economic and industrial regeneration?
Mr. Redwood : I am keen to see that local authorities take the maximum advantage ; that is why we changed the system and made it transparent. We have made the credit approvals available for those projects which go ahead. I am working closely with local government to see that it gets the maximum benefit from the system.
Mr. Barry Jones : Has the Secretary of State received queries from local government about European moneys for next year's roads budget for Wales? Will the right hon. Gentleman assure me that the multi-million pound River Dee crossing scheme will begin next April as promised and that the great road project will not fall victim to the Chancellor's axe in terms of spending next year? Does he appreciate that the building of the crossing is urgently needed on Deeside?
Mr. Redwood : I understand that need and I will do the best that I can when I put together the Budget for Wales following the Chancellor's statement. I will take the hon. Gentleman's representations fully into account. He will understand that I cannot give him a 100 per cent. guarantee on any item for next year because we have not yet completed the Budget process.
Incomes
12. Mr. Ainger : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the average per capita income in the counties of Dyfed and Gwynedd in 1992 compared with (a) the Welsh average, (b) the United Kingdom average and (c) the European average in cash and percentage terms.
Sir Wyn Roberts : The latest available data are for 1990, using gross domestic product per head as the measure. For Dyfed, the per capita income was 13.6 per cent. below the Welsh average, 28.1 per cent. below the United Kingdom average and 27.6 per cent. below the EC average. The corresponding figures for Gwynedd were 1.3 per cent., 17.9 per cent. and 17.3 per cent., respectively.
For the international comparison purposes, GPD per head is calculated in purchasing power units, not in cash terms. This cancels out price differences between member
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