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Spellar, John

Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)

Steinberg, Gerry

Stevenson, George

Stott, Roger

Strang, Dr. Gavin

Straw, Jack

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

Tipping, Paddy

Trimble, David

Tyler, Paul

Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold

Wallace, James

Walley, Joan

Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

Wareing, Robert N

Watson, Mike

Welsh, Andrew

Wicks, Malcolm

Wigley, Dafydd

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)

Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)

Wilson, Brian

Winnick, David

Wise, Audrey

Worthington, Tony

Wray, Jimmy

Wright, Dr Tony

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Peter Kilfoyle and

Mr. Dennis Turner.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved,

That the following provisions shall apply to the remaining proceedings on the Railways Bill :

Lords Amendments

1. The proceedings on further Consideration of Lords Amendments shall be completed at this day's sitting and, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion five hours after the commencement of the adjourned proceedings.

2.--(1) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph 1 above--

(a) the Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and not yet decided and, if that Question is for the amendment of a Lords Amendment, shall then put forthwith the Question on any further Amendment of the said Lords Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown and on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in the said Lords Amendment or, as the case may be, in the said Lords Amendment as amended ;

(b) the Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining Lords Amendments as appear to the Speaker to involve questions of Privilege and shall--

(i) put forthwith the Question on any Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown to a Lords Amendment and then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in their Amendment, or as the case may be, in their Amendment as amended ;

(ii) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in a Lords Amendment ;

(iii) put forthwith, with respect to all of the Amendments designated by the Speaker which have not been disposed of, the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in those Amendments ; and

(iv) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Amendments ;

(c) as soon as the House has agreed or disagreed with the Lords in any of their Amendments, or disposed of an Amendment relevant to a Lords Amendment which has been disagreed to, the Speaker shall put forthwith a separate Question on any other Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown relevant to that Lords Amendment.

(2) Proceedings under this paragraph shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.

Stages subsequent to first Consideration of Lords Amendments

3.--(1) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords on the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.

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(2) For the purpose of bringing those proceedings to a conclusion--

(a) the Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and not yet decided, and shall then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown which is related to the Question already proposed from the Chair ;

(b) the Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining items in the Lords Message as appear to the Speaker to involve questions of Privilege and shall--

(i) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown on any item ;

(ii) in the case of each remaining item designated by the Speaker, put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in their Proposal ; and

(iii) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Proposals.

(3) Proceedings under this paragraph shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.

Supplemental-- 4.--(1) The Speaker shall put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown--

(a) for the appointment and quorum of a Committee to draw up Reasons ; or

(b) for the consideration forthwith of any further Message from the Lords on the Bill.

(2) A Committee appointed to draw up Reasons shall report before the conclusion of the sitting at which it is appointed.

5.--(1) In this paragraph "the proceedings" means proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments, on any further Message from the Lords on the Bill, on the appointment and quorum of a Committee to draw up Reasons and the Report of such a Committee.

(2) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business) shall apply to the proceedings.

(3) No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, the proceedings shall be made except by a Minister of the Crown, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.

(4) If the House is adjourned, or the sitting is suspended, before the expiry of the period at the end of which any proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under this Order, no notice shall be required of a Motion made at the next sitting by a Minister of the Crown for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order. (5) If the proceedings on any further Message from the Lords on the Bill are interrupted by a Motion for the Adjournment of the

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House under Standing Order No. 20 (Adjournment on specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration) a period equal to the duration of the proceedings on the Motion shall be added to the period at the end of which the proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion.

6.58 pm

Mr. Anthony Steen (South Hams) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I seek your guidance and help? I have an office in Deans Yard which, as you know, is about a quarter of a mile away from the House. If one travels by car when one hears the Division bell one usually gets help from the police when driving round Parliament square. Apparently, unknown to me, the police have suddenly decided that they will not cover Divisions, so when one gets to the filter light which allows one to get into the Palace there is nobody there to help one through. I nearly missed the vote this evening because of the traffic jamming Parliament square. Secondly, having arrived in New Palace Yard with only seconds to spare, I found that the police have now put out "No Waiting" and "No Parking" signs so that one cannot stop, either. We have a new problem, and I do not know why. Perhaps there are too many rules and regulations, and we need deregulation.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse) : I shall, through Madam Speaker, draw that matter to the attention of the usual channels.

Sir Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I raised a similar point nearly a week ago. I am sorry to say that, although there has normally been a courteous response to such matters in the past, I have heard nothing, and nothing has changed. My office is in Parliament street where the traffic is extremely busy and the traffic lights can be against pedestrians for up to three minutes. The withdrawal of police support is contrary to the rules of the House.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I have got the message. I have told the House that I will draw it to the attention of the Speaker.

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Railways Bill

Lords amendments considered.

Lords amendments Nos. 19 to 30 agreed to. [Some with Special Entry.]

Clause 22

Public sector operators not to be franchisees

Lords amendment : No. 31, in page 24, line 37, at end insert ("(1A) Nothing in subsection (1) above shall prevent--

(a) the British Railways Board (in this Act referred to as "the Board") ; or

(b) a wholly owned subsidiary of the Board,

from being a franchisee.")

7 pm

The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. John MacGregor) : I beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse) : With this we may consider the following Government amendments in lieu of Lords amendment No. 31 : (a), in page 24, line 40, at end insert-- (3) Subject to the following provisions of this section, subsection (1) above shall not prevent--

(a) the British Railways Board (in this Act referred to as "the Board"), or

(b) a wholly owned subsidiary of the Board,

from being a franchisee.

(4) Subject to the following provisions of this section, whenever the Franchising Director proposes to issue invitations to tender under section 23 below in respect of any particular services for the carriage of passengers by railway, he may, after consultation with the Board and the Regulator, determine that neither the Board nor any wholly owned subsidiary of the Board shall be eligible for inclusion among the persons to whom the invitations are to be issued or who may be selected as the franchisee.

(5) The Franchising Director shall not make a determination under subsection (4) above unless he considers that it is desirable to do so--

(a) for the purpose of promoting competition for franchises ; (b) for the purpose of promoting the award of franchise agreements to companies in which qualifying railway employees have a substantial interest ;

(c) for the purpose of encouraging new entry to the passenger railway industry ; or

(d) for the purpose of preventing or reducing the dominance of any person or persons in the market for the provision in Great Britain, or in a part of Great Britain, of services for the carriage of passengers by railway.

(6) The Franchising Director shall--

(a) give notice of any determination under subsection (4) above to the Board ; and

(b) publish notice of the determination in such manner as he thinks fit.

(7) Nothing in subsection (5) above shall be taken to affect the matters which the Franchising Director may take into account in determining the other persons whom he invites to tender for franchise agreements or whom he selects as franchisees.

(8) No objectives, instructions or guidance shall be given under section 5 above by the Secretary of State to the Franchising Director with respect to the exercise of his functions under this section. (9) In this section--

"competition for franchises" means competition to become franchisees under franchise agreements ;

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"encouraging new entry to the passenger railway industry" means encouraging private sector operators who do not currently provide services for the carriage of passengers by railway to commence doing so ;

"qualifying railway employees", in the case of any franchise agreement, means persons who are or have been employed in an undertaking which provides or provided the services to which the franchise agreement relates at a time before those services begin to be provided under that franchise agreement.'.

(b), in page 54, line 36, after 20' insert 21, 23'.

(c), in page 72, line 2, at end insert--

( ) every notice of a determination under section 22(4) above ;'.

Mr. MacGregor : As the House knows, we discussed similar issues on Report on 25 May when a Labour amendment along the lines of amendment No. 31 was tabled. The Labour amendment was rejected by a majority of 19 after a lengthy debate. After the Lords amendment tabled by Lord Peyton was passed, I made it clear that the House of Lords was asking us to re-examine the arguments, and that I would wait until the Bill had passed through the other place before I made our position known. Since the passage of the Lords amendment, we have had detailed discussions with many people, including a number of my hon. Friends, about the issues, and what I am proposing in our amendment is the result. Therefore, I urge that we disagree with the Lords in their amendment and pass our amendment instead.

The House will be aware of our concerns about allowing British Rail to bid for franchises. They are not simply our concerns. They were spelt out many times during the debate on 25 May when I set out our objections, with which the House agreed at that time. The most important concern is that British Rail starts out as the monopoly operator--indeed, the sole operator. Its privileged position, backed by the taxpayer, will discourage other potential franchisees from bidding and make it more difficult for management and employee teams to prepare and support bids for franchises.

With the best will in the world, senior British Rail management are bound to favour their corporate bids at the expense of

management-employee buy-outs. Those who want to mount

management-employee buy-outs would be hesitant, to put it mildly, about going against senior management in that way.

We already know--my hon. Friend the Minister for Public Transport has talked about this already in our two-day debate--that many managers in British Rail are keen to submit management-employee buy-out bids. However, they have made it known that, if British Rail bids against them, they will have severe difficulties. We need to address that issue. I think that Tory Members and, I hope, the whole House are in favour of encouraging management-employee buy-outs. After the vote yesterday, it is clear that Labour Members are not in favour of encouraging management-employee buy- outs but certainly all Tory Members are.

The second problem is the chaos and confusion that would result--I know that many people in British Rail are concerned about this--if the Lords amendment went through unchanged. Chaos and confusion would arise because, in many cases, the managers who will be asked to submit the British Rail bid will be keen to submit their own bids. Clearly, that is a recipe for complete confusion. To deal with that specific point, a British Rail source is reported in The Daily Telegraph yesterday as asking what

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