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Kilfoyle, Peter

Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn)

Lewis, Terry

Livingstone, Ken

Llwyd, Elfyn

Loyden, Eddie

McAllion, John

McAvoy, Thomas

McFall, John

McKelvey, William

Mackinlay, Andrew

McNamara, Kevin

Marek, Dr John

Marshall, David (Shettleston)

Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Martlew, Eric

Meale, Alan

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Milburn, Alan

Miller, Andrew

Morgan, Rhodri

Morley, Elliot

Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Mullin, Chris

Murphy, Paul

O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)

O'Hara, Edward

Olner, William

O'Neill, Martin

Patchett, Terry

Pendry, Tom

Pickthall, Colin

Pike, Peter L.

Pope, Greg

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)

Primarolo, Dawn

Purchase, Ken

Radice, Giles

Raynsford, Nick

Reid, Dr John

Roche, Mrs. Barbara

Rogers, Allan

Rowlands, Ted

Sedgemore, Brian

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

Spearing, Nigel

Spellar, John

Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)

Stevenson, George

Strang, Dr. Gavin

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Turner, Dennis

Walley, Joan

Wareing, Robert N

Welsh, Andrew

Wise, Audrey

Worthington, Tony

Wray, Jimmy

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Jon Owen Jones and

Mr. Gordon McMaster.

Lords amendments Nos. 4 to 12 accordingly agreed to.

Mrs. Beckett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I know how conscious you are, as are all the occupants of the Chair, of your duty to, in particular, Back-Bench Members--a duty which I previously thought was of considerable importance to the Leader of the House. Do you feel that it is in order for the business to be changed in this grossly discourteous way without any proper business statement, without any notice appearing on the Annunciator that anything was being raised in the Chamber and with only a cursory phone call, barely terminated before the Leader of the House rose to his feet, from his office to mine ? All that is in order to interrupt guillotined business to tell the House that the Government propose to change the order of business within a few minutes. There can hardly be an hon. Member who can say that they have had adequate notice of what was taking place or adequate time to respond properly. Is that respectful treatment of Back Benchers ?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : The House will have an opportunity to vote on whether the Lords amendment is taken forthwith.

Mr. Michael : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sure that you will understand the anger with which I raise this point of order when you consider that the measure that has been interrupted was the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill and that the Cardiff Bay development corporation area is entirely within my constituency. Is it in order for business to be totally disrupted in this way by the Leader of the House wandering in here without notice and taking up time on guillotined business ? The Bill is of enormous importance to my constituents, to Cardiff and to the whole of south Wales. The Leader of the House showed no courtesy to my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) or to other hon. Friends on the Front and Back Benches. Is that in order ?

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Mr. Deputy Speaker : Yes, it was in order or it would have been ruled out of order by the Chair at the time.

Mr. Cryer : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As you will appreciate, there were many angry people in the House when the Leader of the House used a point of order to, in effect, make a business statement. My understanding is that notice of a business statement is not required by Standing Order, but it is a convention--an important convention--of the House. In addition, enumerators have been provided throughout the length and breadth of the House of Commons to provide hon. Members with information. There was no information on the enumerators--

Hon. Members-- : Annunciators'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. It is difficult for me to rule on a point of order if I cannot hear the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Cryer : There was no information on the annunciators to tell hon. Members that a business statement disguised as a point of order was being made.

In addition, I raised a further point of order at that time--only a relatively short time ago. I said that the further information about the way that the House was going to deal with Lords messages on the Bill should be on the enumerator-- [Interruption.] I mean the annunciator. This vital issue is being trivialised by the pin-striped hooligans on the Government Benches. [Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The House must now settle down. I cannot hear what the hon. Gentleman expects me to rule on.

8 pm

Mr. Cryer : I do not propose to start again, except to say that there have been difficulties with the various television sets which announce the business of the House across the length and breadth of the Palace. I understand that the information has been changing rapidly and that it did not get the usual amount of time that is allocated to a change of this nature.

The unusual and exceptional circumstances have been brought about by the Government's incompetence. They are organising the prorogation of the House on Friday, not the Opposition. We are prepared to come back and work. [Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I think I have now taken the hon. Gentleman's message, and I fully understand the point that he is making. He made a similar point earlier. Will he conclude his point of order, and may we have quiet to allow the Chair to hear?

Mr. Cryer : May I ask, in view of the serious confusion which is prevailing tonight, that the House adjourns for 15 minutes? That would allow the usual channels to arrange for the proper conduct of business. It would also allow hon. Members who are not here to receive a clear message on the television sets which announce the business that there will be a debate on the messages from the Lords, according to the decision which was made yesterday, for one hour once that debate has started. That is a reasonable request, and I put it to you that it should be accepted.

Several hon. Members rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I will deal with points of order one at a time. Before I deal with the point of order

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that has just been made, I hope that all points of order are genuine and are not delaying tactics. I have noted the hon. Gentleman's point, and I am sure that the Government have also noted it. I have nothing further to add.

Mr. Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will recall that, at the end of the proceedings last night, we appointed a Committee to draw up reasons to persuade the House of Lords that they should agree with this House.

Can you explain how I can see a copy of the reasons that were drawn up? What process is there for the Lords to communicate to this House the reasons why they turned down our request? I hope that you will accept that it is unsatisfactory for the Government to rush through a measure such as this. I have a large number of British Rail pensioners in my constituency, and a large number of constituents who use British Rail. They have every right to know the reasons why the Government are pushing the measure through the House with such disgusting and indecent haste.

I hope that you can explain what was said in the Committee that drew up the message to the Lords, why the Lords did not accept the message and what further action hon. Members can take to make sure that we are properly informed before we are rushed into a further debate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. They have been included in today's Votes and Proceedings. The Lords have not disagreed.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not know whether you are aware of it, but it was announced on the House of Lords annunciators that the Lords would have to hang around for a while. It seems rather strange to me that the Government, who do not have the guts to tell the House of Commons, informed Members of the House of Lords to hang about late tonight before they made the announcement in this House.

We have come to a tidy pass when the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons are bypassed to tell their people in the Lords to stay on. Some of those people were not ready to stay on in the House of Lords. The net result is that doctors and nurses will be needed over there. The matter needs investigating.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : The hon. Gentleman's point of order has nothing to do with this House.

Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I put it to you that the last vote should be taken again. There is no doubt that the Division Bells did not ring on the ground floor of the House. A few hon. Members who were down there were not aware that a Division was taking place.

I understand, and I have seen it happen on previous occasions, that, according to the rules of the House, if Members say that they were misled by the annunciators and by the Division bells, they have the right to demand that the Division be taken again. I put it to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that it was not a fair Division.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : It is too late now. No complaint was made at the time.

Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey) : Further to the earlier points of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would ask you to rule on whether the Government are playing games with democracy in this place. They could

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have made a business announcement days ago about what would happen if the Lords disagreed with us. However, they chose not to. The Leader of the House should have made a business statement, and there was no excuse for his not making one, once the Lords disagreed with the Commons earlier this evening.

There is an issue more important than either of those examples, and it follows the point of order made by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). It was announced that the House of Lords had been "suspended during pleasure"--that slightly odd phrase-- [Interruption.] I am told that the mind boggles, but it is not for us to comment on that. The important point is that hon. Members have no opportunity of knowing what was debated in the Lords. We have not had a chance to read Hansard, and have not had an opportunity to hear the Lords' reasons. They were asked to reconsider, and they refused that request, presumably for good reason. The Lords are not so accountable to the Whips as we are.

I would ask you to rule, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we do not proceed until we get a proper business statement and until we see the Hansard report of the Lords debate. I would further ask that we do not proceed until consultation takes place, not only with the Labour party's appropriate channels, but certainly with those of my party and--I hazard a guess--those of the other parties, none of whom was consulted at any stage during the day.

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