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Mr. Deputy Speaker : I have already ruled that the House will have the opportunity to decide whether or not it accepts the decision of the Lords. I have already ruled on the point of order made by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).

I believe that we have now had sufficient points of order. Several hon. Members rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I will take a final point of order from the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours).

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will have heard the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton), who raised what you must recognise was a very serious matter. He was in a room in the House of Commons and the Division bell did not ring. He was relying on that Bell to tell him that a Division was taking place. My hon. Friend tells me that he missed the vote. If he did miss the vote, surely it is legitimate to request that the Division be repeated. In the circumstances, surely a check should be made to establish whether the bell was working. If it was not working, one would have thought that the House would want to divide. Surely these are principles that we have established on many occasions before. Several hon. Members rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I want an opportunity to rule on the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell- Savours). There was no report that there was a problem with the Division bell. It is now too late to go back on the proceedings. That is my ruling.

Mr. Bennett : I beg to move, That strangers do withdraw.

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Column 415

Notice being taken that strangers were present, Mr. Deputy Speaker,-- pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 (Withdrawal of Strangers from the House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw :--

The House proceeded to a Division--

Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley) (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is an important constitutional issue where there is a difference between the two Houses and we are waiting to receive a message from the other place. I understand that, when we receive it, the Government will move a manuscript amendment to that message from the Lords. I do not know whether you are even aware of the terms of that manuscript amendment, but it is clear that Members of both Houses are not aware and I therefore seek your guidance. Would it be appropriate to adjourn for 15 minutes to consider exactly what the Government propose to do before they try to do it?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : The hon. Gentleman may not be aware that the amendments have been in the Vote Office for some hours. I understand that hon. Members from all parties have copies of the amendments.

Mr. Pike (seated and covered) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I accept that the three amendments from the other House are in the Vote Office, but we are told that Government are to move a manuscript amendment, which is not available in the Vote Office.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall be discussing only the three amendments.

Mr. Bennett (seated and covered) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If I understand it correctly, you have just ruled that we shall not be able to debate the manuscript amendment. I find that a little puzzling because I thought that normally the Chair would have to look at the amendments before ruling that we should not debate them. If you have seen them, surely the House should be able to see them.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : No amendments have been submitted to the Lords amendments. [Interruption.] Order. I understand that there are hon. Members still in both Lobbies, so will the Serjeant at Arms investigate both Lobbies?

The House having divided : Ayes 29, Noes 389.

Division No. 394] [8.10 pm

AYES

Ashton, Joe

Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret

Bennett, Andrew F.

Cann, Jamie

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Dafis, Cynog

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Enright, Derek

Etherington, Bill

Ewing, Mrs Margaret

Heppell, John

Hill, Keith (Streatham)

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Janner, Greville

Kilfoyle, Peter

Llwyd, Elfyn

Loyden, Eddie

McAllion, John

Martlew, Eric

O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)

Olner, William

Parry, Robert

Pickthall, Colin

Purchase, Ken

Salmond, Alex

Simpson, Alan

Stevenson, George

Strang, Dr. Gavin

Welsh, Andrew

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. John Spellar and

Mr. Alan Meale.

NOES

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Column 416

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

Alton, David

Amess, David

Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkins, Robert

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Baldry, Tony

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Barnes, Harry

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Battle, John

Bayley, Hugh

Beggs, Roy

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

Bellingham, Henry

Bendall, Vivian

Beresford, Sir Paul

Bermingham, Gerald

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bowden, Andrew

Bowis, John

Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes

Brandreth, Gyles

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Browning, Mrs. Angela

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Peter

Byers, Stephen

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Carlisle, John (Luton North)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clappison, James

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Coffey, Ann

Colvin, Michael

Congdon, David

Connarty, Michael

Conway, Derek

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Cormack, Patrick

Corston, Ms Jean

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)

Davies, Quentin (Stamford)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Denham, John

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Devlin, Tim

Dicks, Terry

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Donohoe, Brian H.

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Duncan-Smith, Iain

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Sir Anthony

Dykes, Hugh

Eagle, Ms Angela

Elletson, Harold

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Evennett, David

Faber, David

Fabricant, Michael

Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Flynn, Paul

Forman, Nigel

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Foster, Don (Bath)

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

Freeman, Rt Hon Roger

French, Douglas

Fry, Peter

Gallie, Phil

Gapes, Mike

Gardiner, Sir George

Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan

Garnier, Edward

Garrett, John

Gerrard, Neil

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Golding, Mrs Llin

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gordon, Mildred

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Gorst, John

Gould, Bryan

Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Grylls, Sir Michael

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hall, Mike

Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hanley, Jeremy

Hannam, Sir John

Hanson, David

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