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T H EP A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE SECOND SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 27 APRIL 1992]
FORTY-SECOND YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 233
FIRST VOLUME OF SESSION 1993-94
House of Commons
Thursday 18 November 1993
The House met at twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Message to attend Her Majesty :
The House went ; and having returned :
The sitting was suspended until half-past Two o'clock, and then resumed.
2.30 pm
On resuming --
SESSIONAL ORDERS
Elections
Ordered,
That all Members who are returned for two or more places in any part of the United Kingdom to make their Election for which of the places they will serve, within one week after it shall appear that there is no question upon the Return for that place ; and if anything shall come in question touching the Return or Election of any Member, he is to withdraw during the time the matter is in debate ; and that all Members returned upon double Returns do withdraw until their Returns are determined.
Resolved,
That no Peer of the Realm, except a Peer of Ireland, hath any right to give his vote in the Election of any Member to serve in Parliament.
Resolved,
That if it shall appear that any person hath been elected or returned a Member of this House, or endeavoured so to be, by Bribery or any other corrupt practices, this House will proceed with the utmost severity against all such persons as shall have been wilfully concerned in such Bribery or other corrupt practices.
Witnesses
Resolved,
That if it shall appear that any person hath been tampering with any Witness, in respect of his evidence to be given to this
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House, or any Committee thereof, or directly or indirectly hath endeavoured to deter or hinder any person from appearing or giving evidence the same is declared to be a high crime and misdemeanour ; and this House will proceed with the utmost severity against such offender.That if it shall appear that any person hath given false evidence in any case before this House, or any Committee thereof, this House will proceed with the utmost severity against such offender.
Metropolitan Police
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis do take care that during the Session of Parliament the passages through the streets leading to the House be kept free and open and that no obstruction be permitted to hinder the passage of Members to and from this House, and that no disorder be allowed in Westminster Hall, or in the passages leading to this House, during the Sitting of Parliament and that there be no annoyance therein or thereabouts ; and that the Serjeant at Arms attending this House do communicate this Order to the Commissioner aforesaid.
2.33 pm
Mr. Peter Shore (Bethnal Green and Stepney) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. This morning, I experienced an unhappy incident when driving my car to the House of Commons. I was stopped at the Millbank roundabout and told by a police officer that it was impossible to proceed further because of the parked cars of distinguished visitors, and so forth. I was also told, perfectly properly, that I could go over the river and approach the House from Westminster bridge. I did so, although the traffic was rather heavy, but I was stopped at that bridge by another officer. I find that I was not alone, as at least two other Members of Parliament were similarly inconvenienced. I told the officer that I had every right to come to the House of Commons--this did not happen immediately before the Royal carriage arrived but well and truly half an hour before that event--and I then spoke to a senior officer. I can only describe him as an officer with a certain amount of silver on his cap--I was unable to recognise his exact rank.
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I said to him that I had every right to come to the House of Commons, because that was the right of all Members of Parliament. The officer told me that the police had received instructions from the Chief Whip, who had agreed that the approaches to the Palace should be stopped, for Members of Parliament as for others, from a certain time. I said that that was extraordinary and that I would take the opportunity to raise the matter at the first moment. I have done so, Madam Speaker, and I hope that you will make sure that the Commissioner of the Metropolitan police fulfils his duty to the House under Sessional Orders and that the parliamentary privilege of all Members of Parliament to come to this place will be maintained.Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster) : May I say on behalf of the hon. Member for Medway (Dame P. Fenner) that she was equally inconvenienced. It took her about a hour and a half to get to the House this morning, even though she left in very good time.
Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker : I am coming to the hon. Gentleman. I shall take all points of order.
Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : The Sessional Order is debatable, Madam Speaker. We are not required to make points of order to raise issues. I wish to draw the attention of the House to the importance of the Sessional Order. There are times when Members of Parliament need to come here immediately from some activity outside. I recall a student demonstration three or four years ago which was disrupted with what some of us regarded as excessive ferocity by the police. We wanted to raise the matter in the House.
If we are not given the right to enter this place rapidly, we cannot do so with the urgency which the break-up of such a demonstration demanded. Of course, the privilege is not for ourselves. It is to allow us to attend on behalf of our constituents and use the right of free speech to raise issues.
The tradition of the police in the House, organised by the Commissioner of the Metropolitan police, has always been that Members are known by their faces to the police officers stationed on duty at the various entrances. Any machinery that is established to be operated by cards does not apply to Members, because the absence of a card could unnecessarily impede a Member's entry to the House. The tradition of the experience of police officers cannot be replaced by any card system, no matter how complicated the magnetic record on the card. I hope that the Sessional Order that we are about to pass carries that clear implication. I hope that when complicated electronic devices are installed members of the Metropolitan police force will always be on duty nearby to allow Members access to this place so that we can represent our constituents unimpeded.
Mr. Jim Lester (Broxtowe) : Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker--
Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman does not necessarily have to raise a point of order. This is a debatable order.
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Mr. Lester : In support of the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), may I say that I had precisely the same experience as him. I started at Westminster bridge at half-past nine. I was challenged at the Embankment and in Great Marsham street. Eventually, I managed to find one sensible police officer who accepted that Members of Parliament should be here in time for the ceremony.
Mr. Robert Hughes : This morning at 10.15, I was stopped at Westminster bridge and told that I could not proceed any further. However, as soon as I explained my purpose, I was immediately and courteously allowed through. Could you, Madam Speaker, make inquiries to discover which Chief Whip said that I would be allowed through, but not my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore)?
Mr. Richard Tracey (Surbiton) : I rise to support the comments of the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney. I was one of the hon. Members who were delayed at the end of Westminster bridge when there was plenty of time to allow Members of Parliament through the Carriage Gate in their cars. I heard nothing of a Chief Whip giving such an order, but I heard a great deal about the order coming from senior officers of the Metropolitan police. The constables who had to deliver the message to us seemed extremely embarrassed. Fortunately, the officers were able to park us in New Bridge street, but it was a totally unacceptable situation.
Mr. Robin Corbett (Birmingham, Erdington) : The Sessional Order goes wider than the problem raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney. At 9.50 this morning, well before the state opening, police officers told me in Trafalgar square that I needed a special parking sticker on my windscreen, which I did not. I understand that that and, presumably, other problems arose because the police officers brought into the area for the state opening are not familiar with such orders. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) rightly said that we are entitled to an unimpeded right of entry into the House of Commons. We ask for no special privileges such as being able to jump red lights, but we have the right--on production of our pass if necessary--to have that right of entry respected. Will you, Madam Speaker, consider raising the issue with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis to ensure that all his officers, including those brought in from outside forces, are aware of our pass and the rights attached to it in attendance of the House?
Mr. David Ashby (Leicestershire, North-West) : May I confirm everything that has been said? A police officer told me that it was more than his job was worth to allow me through. If that police officer were to come forward and identify himself, would you, Madam Speaker, give him a red hat? [Interruption.] Yes, the red bag that is given on some television programme.
There is always great difficulty in crossing Bridge street, so will you ensure that that area is properly policed during Divisions? Bridge street is extremely dangerous and there are only a few seconds to get from our offices across the road. If it is properly policed, we would be able to get to the House for Divisions.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : I came here at 7.30 am and nobody stopped me.
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Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale) : In spite of the early riser on the Opposition Benches, it seems churlish that, on agreeing the Sessional Order this year, the House thus far has not seen fit to thank the police for their excellent policing of the Palace.
Mr. John Watts (Slough) : Contrary to what has been said by some hon. Members, I am sure that Chief Whips on each side of the House have not been involved in any restrictions on access to the House. Nor do I believe that the fault lies with the officers manning the barriers or that the problem arose because of their unfamiliarity with procedures. The three constables who prevented me from having access to the House were well aware of the contents of Sessional Orders, but had had specific orders from their superior officers that roads were to be closed to Members of Parliament. I agree with the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney that it is a serious abuse and one which needs to be pursued with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. I have written to him today to point out there is little point in the House promulgating Sessional Orders if he and his supervising officers choose to ignore them.
Mr. John Townend (Bridlington) : I understand that the problem has not arisen only today. During the previous Session, the police, whom I have found to be most helpful for the past 15 years, had a letter from their superintendent instructing them not to help hon. Members crossing the road to come to vote. That is unacceptable. I should be grateful, Madam Speaker, if you would take up the matter with the Metropolitan police.
Madam Speaker : I have listened very carefully to what all hon. Members have said and I shall follow through the points raised. It is probably appropriate for me to make my comments on some of these matters.
The purpose of the Sessional Order is to authorise the police to deal with obstructions put in the way of hon. Members coming to Parliament. Hon. Members do not enjoy--I am sure that they do not seek to enjoy--immunity from the ordinary operation of the law relating to
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traffic regulations. Nor do I believe that they seek permission to leave their cars unattended in areas where there are signs saying, "No parking".I am aware-- [Interruption.] Order. Hon. Members should listen to this. I am aware of the recent complaints about difficulty in access for Divisions. The head of security has issued new guidance to his police officers and I hope that the problems that some hon. Members have experienced--I know of them--will not recur. However, I make it clear that the primary responsibility rests with hon. Members themselves. They must ensure that they allow adequate time to reach the Division Lobbies.
May I make a point about automatic access control? In doing so, I remind the House that the second report of Session 1987-88 from the Services Committee, which was approved by the House on 30 January 1989, recommended that consideration be given to extending the use of automatic access control arrangements to appropriate entry points in the Palace of Westminster. The Committee also said that hon. Members should be willing to set an example by using the new systems. May we now proceed?
Question put and agreed to.
Votes and Proceedings
Ordered,
That the Votes and Proceedings of this House be printed, being first perused by the Speaker ; and that she do appoint the printing thereof ; and that no person but such as she shall appoint do presume to print the same.
Outlawries
A Bill for the more effectual preventing Clandestine Outlawries ; read the First time ; to be read a Second time.
Journal
Ordered,
That the Journal of this House, from the end of the last Session to the end of the present Session, with an index thereto, be printed. Ordered,
That the said Journal and Index be printed by the appointment and under the direction of Sir Clifford John Boulton, KCB, the Clerk of this House.
Ordered,
That the said Journal and Index be printed by such person as shall be licensed by the Speaker, and that no other person do presume to print the same.
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Queen's Speech
Madam Speaker : I have to acquaint the House that this House has this day attended Her Majesty in the House of Peers, and that Her Majesty was pleased to make a Most Gracious Speech from the Throne to both Houses of Parliament, of which I have, for greater accuracy, obtained a copy.
I shall direct that the terms of the Gracious Speech be printed in the Votes and Proceedings. Copies are available in the Vote Office. The Gracious Speech was as follows :
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
The Duke of Edinburgh and I look forward to our tour of Caribbean countries next spring. We shall visit France to inaugurate, with the President of the French Republic, the Channel Tunnel in May ; and to attend the ceremonies to mark the 50th Anniversary of the Normandy Landings, in June. We shall visit Canada to attend the Commonwealth Games in August.
My Government attach the highest importance to national security. They will maintain full support for the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. They will work to secure NATO's adaptation to the changing security environment, and to continue developing the operational role of the Western European Union. My Government will work for full implementation of the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty, and for the entry into force of the Open Skies Treaty. Britain's minimum independent nuclear deterrent will be maintained. My Government will work for the effective implementation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, to prevent proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, to promote the indefinite and unconditional extension of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and to encourage international responsibility in conventional arms transfers. They will take part constructively in negotiations on a verifiable and comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban. They will continue to help with the safe and secure transport of nuclear weapons for dismantling in the former Soviet Union.
Now that the Treaty of Maastricht has entered into force, My Government will attach particular importance to implementing the new common foreign and security policy and intergovernmental co-operation in the fields of justice and home affairs. They will work to ensure that the principle of subsidiarity is applied to European Community legislation. My Government will promote financial and budgetary discipline in the Community. They will work within the Community for a successful conclusion to the Uruguay Round of trade negotiations. My Government will work for a rapid conclusion of accession agreements with Austria, Finland, Norway and Sweden, and will continue to put forward the case for European countries which are ready and wish to join the European Community.
My Government will strive for a peaceful settlement in the former Yugoslavia. They will provide help
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for political and economic reform in the states of the former Soviet Union, and their integration into the international community.My Government will play a constructive role in strengthening the United Nations' capacity to undertake peacekeeping and preventive action. They will work for full Iraqi compliance with Security Council Resolutions.
My Government welcome the recent breakthrough in the Middle East peace process. They will continue to support efforts to bring lasting peace to the region.
My Government will work for the long-term stability and prosperity of Hong Kong and to co-operate with China to implement the Sino-British Joint Declaration in the best interests of the Hong Kong people.
My Government will play an active part in the Commonwealth. They will support construction of a democratic society in South Africa. My Government will maintain a substantial aid programme to promote sustainable development and good government.
My Government will introduce legislation to place the Secret Intelligence Service and Government Communications Headquarters on a statutory basis ; and to make further provisions for the oversight and accountability of them and the Security Service.
In Northern Ireland My Government will continue their efforts to defeat terrorism through impartial and resolute enforcement of the law, to uphold the democratic wishes of its people and seek political progress by broadly based agreement, to strengthen economic progress and to create equality of opportunity for all sections of the community. They will maintain positive relations with the Republic of Ireland.
My Government will maintain their fight against terrorism, throughout the United Kingdom and elsewhere.
Members of the House of Commons
Estimates for the public service will be laid before you. My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
My Government will continue with firm financial policies designed to support continuing economic growth and rising employment, based on permanently low inflation.
My Government will bring together tax and expenditure decisions in a unified Budget. Fiscal policy will be set to bring the budget deficit back towards balance over the medium term. My Government will reduce the share of national income taken by the public sector. They will continue to promote enterprise and improve the supply performance of the economy.
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The Citizen's Charter will remain central to My Government's programme for improving public services.Legislation will be introduced to give force to the changes in the European Community's system of own resources following the agreement at the Edinburgh European Council.
Legislation will be introduced to facilitate deregulation and to remove obstacles to contracting out by central and local government. My Government will continue to give priority to law and order. Legislation will be introduced to allow the courts to deal more effectively with young offenders and to make improvements in the criminal law.
A Bill will be introduced to improve the organisation and management of the police so that they are better able to combat crime, and to strengthen the administration of magistrates' courts. My Government will continue to develop its policies on social security so that help is concentrated on those most in need and expenditure is kept within affordable limits. Legislation will be introduced to raise the National Insurance Contributions paid by employees.
Legislation will be introduced to privatise British Coal. My Government will bring forward legislation to reform local government in Scotland and Wales.
My Government will introduce legislation to estab-lish new arrangements for funding teacher training in England and Wales and to reform student unions.
My Government will bring forward a Bill to reform the law on Sunday trading in England and Wales.
Bills will be introduced to take forward Environment Agency planning, and to reform the law on trade marks.
Other measures will be laid before you.
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your counsels.
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Debate on the Address
[First Day]
Madam Speaker : I shall now acquaint the House with the arrangements for our debate.
Friday 19 November--foreign affairs and defence ; Monday 22 November--local government in Scotland and Wales; Tuesday 23 November--home affairs and education ; Wednesday 24 November--trade, industry and deregulation ; Thursday 25 November--the economy. It may also be for the convenience of the House to know that on Friday 26 November there will be a debate entitled "Progress towards the national education and training targets" on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
2.48 pm
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith (Wealden) : I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows : Most Gracious Sovereign,
We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
After all that, I feel especially lucky to have got here at all. I deeply appreciate the honour that the House has done me by giving me the opportunity to move the Loyal Address. I recognise, too, that it is an honour which rightly belongs to my constituency.
The only trouble that I have with my constituency is that very few people outside its confines seem to know where it is. There is no town, village, river, or part of any map which gives a description of the location of my constituency. I will take this unexpected opportunity to reveal that it is situated in the county of East Sussex and stretches southwards from East Grinstead in the north to within a few miles of Pevensey Bay and Eastbourne.
My constituency embraces four small towns, many small villages, and some attractive--largely unspoilt--rolling and wooded countryside. Timber from one of our villages is used to support the hammer frame roof in Westminster hall. The wide open spaces of Ashdown forest-- [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) is welcome to meet me any time in those woods ; not that there is much wooded life left. Much of the wood was cut down and used for the ships of the Royal Navy from the time of the Armada up to Nelson's day. Iron ore from my constituency was used for the guns that were supplied for the Navy's ships. The woods and forests are now more likely to be associated with Pooh Bear and Christopher Robin. I hope that I may be forgiven for regretting that the town of East Grinstead no longer gives its illustrious name to my constituency. The town had the distinction of sending Members to the "First Complete and Model Parliament" in 1295, which was formed some 30 years after Simon De Montfort's prescriptive rebellious prototype. In 1541, the town returned one Thomas Sackville esquire. It says something about the staying power of that family and its commitment to public service that a descendant represents the constituency of Bolton, West today. I congratulate my hon. Friend on winning that seat by, if I may say so, rather more democratic means than the previous eponymous Sackville.
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