House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Nov 1993

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broadcasting networks and of ensuring that arbitrary measures such as declaration of security zones are open, supervised and temporary. We must tell our friends in Malawi, to whom we are beginning to resume aid, that while it is fine that a referendum has been held, agreements made between that country's Government and Opposition parties on constitutional changes have not yet been put in place. We must be careful that, by resuming aid programmes, we do not give the wrong impression to the people in those countries that everything in the garden is now lovely and that their Governments are back to full international respectability. Those issues are difficult to judge, but I hope that the Goverment will be cautious in resuming aid programmes in pursuit of good governance.

The requirement for good governance certainly applies in the negotiations over Hong Kong. The House should fully support what the Governor there is attempting to achieve. We must tell the Chinese Government that they will be judged by the way in which they accept the development of Hong Kong's economy in accordance with the wishes of the people of Hong Kong, to which the Chinese Government subscribed in the joint agreement.

Good governance applies also to the situation in western Sahara. I hope that the British Government will do more to lean on the Moroccan Government, to ensure that the long-awaited referendum takes place. It has been constantly delayed and Britain has now withdrawn its small component part of the UN force there.

The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling made the perfectly valid point that more and more of our aid programme is being pre-empted by international agencies, but I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about European Community figures. In my experience, its aid programmes are extremely effective. It is too easy to make jibes about Brussels bureaucracy. I know of no case where that criticism applies to European aid projects. There is more doubt about the effectiveness and efficiency of some UN agencies, and we must pay more attention to reforming the United Nations and streamlining its organisation, as I have said.

What concerns me about the pre-emption of so much of our aid budget multilaterally is not the principle of a large section of that aid going multilaterally--here again, I disagree with the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling--but that the tail end of it, in the form of the bilateral aid programme, is suffering the squeeze. The United Kingdom's contribution continues to fall while the Conservative manifesto and the Prime Minister at Rio reiterated that we are supposed to be moving towards the UN target of 0.7 per cent. of gross national product. There is a gap between Government utterances and statements and their actions. They should be ashamed of our overseas aid budget.

A couple of weeks ago, I was in Canada, naturally sharing in the rejoicing of the defeat of that country's Conservative Government. I met Mr. Chre tien on the eve of his taking over as Prime Minister. The Liberal Government told me that, even under the Conservatives, Canada had a good record on overseas aid and that they are determined to push back towards the target of 1 per cent. of GNP. That is something of which to be proud. There is a glaring contrast between the Canadian Government, who have already achieved the UN target and are moving beyond it, and the British Government, who are paying lip service to the UN target but are failing to reach even half of it.

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Incidentally, one must pay tribute to the Canadian Conservatives for achieving something that no political party in this House and certainly not Labour's shadow Cabinet have achieved, which is equality of representation. The Conservatives have two Members of Parliament in the new Canadian House of Commons--one man and one woman. However, that is an irreverent aside.

I can compliment the British Government on their efforts in respect of debt relief. I commend the Minister for Overseas Development, Lady Chalker, and the Prime Minister for their efforts--but we have not yet succeeded in translating into effect the G7 summit declarations made at Tokyo. I hope that the Government will continue to pressure the Japanese, in particular, and the International Monetary Fund and World bank to engage in greater measures of debt relief in accordance with Government statements.

I will conclude with a reference to the Gracious speech and its inadequate sentence on the arms trade :

"My Government will encourage international responsibility in conventional arms transfers."

That is an extremely limited objective. From my travels over the past two or three years, I am more and more convinced that, in the aftermath of the cold war, controlling the arms trade must take far higher priority in international debate and in our own foreign policy. The world is now awash with expensive and lethal weaponry. Next year, there will be an official review of the operation of the UN register of conventional arms.

The ending of the cold war created large stocks of unused conventional weaponry and unwanted manufacturing capacity. In particular, huge supplies of arms are coming from the former states of the Soviet Union. The United States and ourselves have also led the way in supplying arms to developing countries. Some of the most surprising nations, such as Hungary and South Africa, eager to acquire foreign exchange, have been reckless with their arms exports.

The growing number of international arms dealers, ever-ready to cash in on human strife, is a moral disgrace. We cannot acquit arms-producing states such as our own--with our official defence sales agencies and exhibitions-- from complicity in that money-making aggravation of global misery and suffering. The five permanent members of the Security Council, who include Britain, supply 80 per cent. of the world's armaments.

I cite two worrying examples of why that issue is so important and how we are completely failing to tackle it. In the past few years, South Africa-- because of its isolationist policies--has been building up its own arms industry and exporting armaments for anyone who would buy them from the old South African regime. Sadly, there is every indication that the transitional Government--and the African National Congress itself were it to come to govern in the future--will continue using South Africa's arms supply capacity for foreign exchange purposes. Even worse, there are indications that the ANC is being courted by arms sales organisations, including those in Britain, to buy expensive items of weaponry such as submarines and aircraft for the new South Africa. That is most dispiriting. There are other priorities for the new South Africa.

In the middle east, the United Arab Emirates--a country and Government which I greatly admire--have said that they will contribute $25 million to the Gaza-Jericho development. We all applaud that and say

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thank you very much--but, in the same year, the UAE will spend $3.5 billion on purchasing tanks. One questions the right priorities in the middle east situation.

I am aware that the cessation of arms manufacturing would have a devastating effect on unemployment in the developed world. We must engage in arms employment conversion programmes so that we may move towards international discussion on controlling the arms race and arms trade. Britain should be taking a lead by closing its own arms sales agencies. If that is not done, all the talk about peacekeeping and peacemaking only means that we intend to spend the next decade rushing around the world putting out bush fires that we ourselves helped to light. That is not a sensible policy.

11.39 am

Mr. David Howell (Guildford) : As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said at the beginning of the debate, the foreign policy scene is indeed kaleidoscopic. Identifying Britain's interests and how they are defended around the world has never been more diverse and difficult. One continues to marvel at my right hon. Friend's capacities to keep abreast and on top of the vast variety of issues with the skill, determination and clarity that he does.

I wish to concentrate on three foreign policy issues that are raised in the Gracious Speech--relations with the Republic of Ireland, relations with the rest of the European Union, which are crucial and which are emerging as the central issue, as they have been in the debate about our place in the world, and relations, through Hong Kong, with the People's Republic of China.

As one of the two hon. Members now left who took part in trying to put together the power-sharing agreement of 1973-74, I am temperamentally in favour of any talks and dialogue to bring stability, prosperity and the good life to Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. I am pleased indeed to hear that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is putting his personal commitment and time into trying to inch forward progress on this horrific issue, with which we have all struggled over the years.

It is worth remembering that the power-sharing participants were all parties that, enthusiastically or otherwise, accepted what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday called the cast-iron constitutional agreement : that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, as decided in a referendum, the legislation for which I took through the House.

When one hears ideas of new talks with different parties, one must ask exactly what the aim of the talks would be and what the conditions and assumptions behind them are. One hopes that they are to further peace and stability in Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. To my mind, that is the cast-iron constitutional guarantee and it was the starting point for the power-sharing talks. Not every party may have liked it, but they all agreed to it and that is how we made progress, although for reasons that I do not have time to go into now it came apart and we were back to square one. It is important to bear that in mind and not to let the idea of talks in general, because talks are better than killing, carry us away and make us lose sight of the key objective within the cast-iron constitutional guarantee.

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The talks on the power-sharing agreement and the brief talks between the Government, of whom I was a part although I was not physically involved in the talks, and the leaders of the Provisional IRA proved one thing to me beyond peradventure : talks with people such as the IRA or those who had nothing but contempt for any guarantees of Northern Ireland's position, were a waste of time. That is what we and my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Whitelaw concluded clearly. In a way, that was the point of showing the world that they would be a waste of time.

No talks, however well intentioned, even the power-sharing talks, will travel without, at the same time and on a separate track, the utmost dedication--not to the compromise of terrorism, or to hoping that it will go away if talks progress, but to the defeat of terrorism. That is a matter to which I know my right hon. and hon. Friends and leading members of the Dublin Government are dedicated. I urge them to vastly greater efforts in an attempt to do what is necessary to control and defeat terrorist movements and, although it will be difficult, to capture and secure convictions for the godfathers of terrorism--the brains. We can arrest people in active service units. One can go against the loyalist terrorists who react to the latest horrors in a hideous ding-dong of revenge, but the ultimate task of defeating terrorism, as experience shows in every country where there has been effective control of terrorist movements, is to capture the big fish. I have always regarded that as crucial--relying on close co-operation between the Dublin Government and the British Government and on an intensity of activity possibly greater than we have been told about in the House, although I hope that it is going on.

With modern technology, we could do more to prevent the intimidation of witnesses, to secure convictions and to protect those who are trying to administer the law in the Republic of Ireland or in the United Kingdom. I commend to hon. Members who desperately want the Northern Ireland situation to be settled, with Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom under its cast-iron guarantee, a fascinating document by Professor Paul Wilkinson, Professor of International Studies at the University of St. Andrews, which appeared in the August edition of the independent magazine, Parliamentary Brief, which is circulated to Members. It sets out a range of ways in which a far more determined strategy might be pursued and I hope that it is being pursued, between Dublin and London, to net the godfathers, the brains and organisers of the system.

MI5's involvement in the intelligence side of Irish terrorism is a great improvement--and, incidentally, if we develop different methods of scrutinising MI5 and the Secret Intelligence Service, as proposed in the Gracious Speech, I hope that we do not make too much of a meal of it. They are meant to be secret services, operating in secrecy. They cannot do their work if accountability, which is perfectly proper, is carried to a degree of intensive intrusion. I do not know whether the arrangement will be decided between the Front Benches, the usual channels or the House authorities, but I hope that it will be of a light and sensible kind and not of a kind that will cause so much accountability to be applied that the very purpose and functions of the agencies will be undermined.

That is all that I want to say on relations with the Republic of Ireland and the Irish question, except to repeat my convinced experience from 20 years ago when we tried power sharing : there are no alternatives. There is no way of defeating terrorism through talks. There must be a twin

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track : dialogue and going against terrorism with the aim of defeating it, using every possible resource in Dublin, London and Belfast to do so.

I now turn to the European Union, which is the centre of our considerations. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister wrote an article in The Economist a few weeks ago which, frankly, I found exhilarating and excellent. Not all of my colleagues may have so found it, but I did. He said that we need a new agenda and that we cannot go on with the stale agenda of constantly calling for greater political and monetary union when so many new burning issues at the top of the Europe's agenda must be addressed--for example, the recession and the 18 million or 19 million unemployed people in Europe. European industry is becoming grossly uncompetitive because it is overloaded with social costs, which is becoming very serious indeed. The European Union is growing in size and questions are now being raised about huge new institutional developments. We must deal with the chaos of Russia. There is a feeling--and it is not a minority feeling any more--among European peoples, which has been shown strongly, that we are moving to an age when we do not need the concentration of power, acquis communautaire and competences at the centre that were needed in the 1960s and 1970s. Decentralisation and the subsidiarisation and repatriation of a vast range of competences and activities should now be considered by much more rigorous constitutional means to reassure people throughout Europe that we are not in a situation of creeping centralisation.

We indeed need a new agenda. I urge my right hon. Friends to say, as they rightly said, not only that the old agenda and reiteration of constant prayers and mantras, as I think my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister described them, for political and monetary union are not good enough for the people of Europe but that we should clearly set out a new agenda. We should make the point that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister almost made in his article in The Economist , but which I am prepared to make : the constant obsession of policy makers of moving towards fixed exchange rates and a single currency is undermining every credible attempt at monetary co-operation and the prevention of volatility in the currency markets of Europe. Any expert who operates in the currency markets will tell politicians that once it is believed that a country has committed itself to the fixed-rate goal, it becomes easy prey for speculators, and time and again all the efforts at monetary co-operation will be undermined by the obsession of going for a single currency or a single bank. That is a bad aim for Europe and it undermines our hopes for prosperity and co- operation in the new European Union. In the language that we use, I wish us to tread a middle path between the super-federalists who want complete unity in a superstate and those who will be hostile to any kind of European co-operation, which will lead to anarchy. We need to develop our view of the European Union with great confidence and set out a positive agenda so that we can carry forward the European Union to prevent it from running into real disillusion and unsaleability, as it is now doing. Currently, it is not a popular concept among the people of Europe.

Finally, on the question of Hong Kong and China, it is worth noting that the Chinese economy is roaring ahead. The latest International Monetary Fund and World bank figures suggest that the size of the Chinese economy has been under-estimated by between four and five times and

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may well already be the third-largest economy in the world, moving forward at a great rate. China is also one of the few nations that is currently increasing its defence spending. All that leads me to the view, which I suspect is shared by most of my hon. Friends, that we must maintain an effective and good relationship with that giant. It is no use trying to box against it and trade insults. We must have good Sino-British relations in the long term for our interests in Asia, for our business and because China is increasingly significant in the equation of global stability. Therefore, we must somehow ensure that we manage the problem of Hong Kong in ways which do not undermine that longer-term aim. Having said that, I am in absolutely no doubt at all, and totally agree with the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), that we must back to the hilt the extremely modest political reform package being put forward by the Governor of Hong Kong as the basis on which the British administer the territory up to 1997.

There are plenty of people in Hong Kong such as some in the business community, as my hon. Friends and members of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee who have just visited the place know, who are prepared to bad mouth the whole reform package. They wonder why we should quarrel with the Chinese now, when in three and a half years they will be able to do anything they like and could take anyone off the "through train". They wonder why we should quarrel about changes, not in the move towards the development of democracy, because that principle is accepted by everybody, but in the democratic arrangements of the 1994 local elections and the 1995 LegCo elections.

It is not as easy as that. If the business people of Hong Kong think that they can advance safely with a democratic system that is rotten, that is not based on true and straightforward democratic procedures, and still keep the rule of law intact--a commercial law on which their prosperity depends- -they are living in a world of illusion. It is absolutely vital that the principles are upheld by Governor Patten, by the British Government and by all those who support what he is trying to do to organise straightforward, unrigged democratic elections. It is true that even if Governor Patten goes ahead with all his aims and receives the backing of LegCo, which I hope that he will, the Chinese could say in three and a half years that they do not like any of the changes and could throw the whole thing over. Let us at least ensure that the threshold against that is raised high. The Chinese have a major interest in the world by integrating their economy with the global economy. The whole Chinese communist party system needs steady growth rather like oxygen to survive and remain in office. It needs to join GATT and international institutions and not to be branded in the way in which it was after the Tiananmen square incident. On taking over Hong Kong, the Chinese certainly should avoid committing all sorts of ruthlessly brutal and crude acts. That would once again immediately condemn them in the eyes of the world. They must be discouraged from dismantling the arrangements that Governor Patten is trying to put in place in Hong Kong as part of Britain's proper administrative duties, under the joint declaration, under the Basic Law of the National Peoples Congress Standing Committee and under the exchange of letters between Foreign Ministers.

The Foreign Affairs Select Committee has heard a good deal about how the British Government are violating the

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Basic Law and the joint declaration. From the evidence of independent experts and from all our inquiries that is not our conclusion. On the contrary, we fear that the Chinese, by seeking to deliberately frustrate the work of the British Government and the Hong Kong Government to slow down the necessary process of transition towards the handover in 1997, may be coming near to breaking the spirit and letter of the joint declaration that requires the Government of the People's Republic of China to co-operate with the British authorities and Hong Kong in all necessary handover arrangements in a constructive way. So we need not be in any way defensive--or offensive, in the narrow sense--about backing the Patten proposals for Hong Kong, because they are vital to achieving adherence to the systems of democracy and rule of law as based on the British legal system. To press forward is important throughout Asia and not just in Hong Kong.

I apologise if I have spoken for too long, but we should concentrate carefully on those three matters in the coming months. We have the opportunity to pursue not a selfish foreign policy but an individual one of power and influence. I am not happy to see our foreign policy affairs submerged in a Euro blur. I know that foreign policy is part of the Maastricht treatuy and let us work together where we can. But in many areas, we have a unique interest to pursue and a unique contribution to make and I know that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is uniquely qualified to pursue those opportunities, as he has done so vigorously in the past.

11.57 am

Mr. Ernie Ross (Dundee, West) : There were parts of the speech by the Secretary of State with which I was in absolute agreement, and I turn first to Cyprus. Anyone who was in Cyprus over the summer and who learned of the discussions and the conflicting reports coming from the various Government delegations must have been not only surprised but pleased by the Foreign Secretary's comments. All the political parties in Cyprus and the Cypriot people throughout the island will be glad to hear and to read the right hon. Gentleman's comments, which were clear and specific. The Foreign Secretary said that in the Government's view Cyprus was one country and one Government--one Cyprus. I am sure that that will be very good news for the people in Cyprus who were beginning to believe that Britain sought to change its position on Cyprus.

I also agreed entirely with the Foreign Secretary's comments about the military takeover in Nigeria. He said that military rule was not acceptable --a comment which found favour on both sides of the House. The message that must go out today from the House to the people of Nigeria, who have once again seen democracy pushed aside by a military cabal, is that we are determined, as the Foreign Secretary made clear, that military rule will not be acceptable and that pressure will be maintained so that democracy can return to that land.

In looking for hope in a period of darkness, we need do no more than remind the Nigerian people of the experience of the people of Bangladesh. For many years they struggled against continuing authoritarian and military rule ; yet the military President eventually ended up in gaol.

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Democracy has returned to Bangladesh. We cannot offer much to the Nigerian people, but we can offer the lesson of history and our continued support for that sad country.

I now turn to the parts of the Foreign Secretary's speech with which I was less pleased. Listening to the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), I thought that he and I must have exchanged notes before we came into the Chamber. Like him, I was concerned about the real lack of content on the United Nations in the Foreign Secretary's speech. I am especially concerned about the lack of reference to the "Agenda for Peace" document which was launched by the Secretary-General on 17 June 1992. Where are we with the "Agenda for Peace"? How is Britain helping the Secretary-General to reform the UN so that it can move forward with the "Agenda for Peace"? As the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale said, and as other hon. Members have said on numerous occasions in the House, many areas of the "Agenda for Peace" would be of use not only to this country but to the world in trying to resolve the many conflicts.

In our debate on 21 January 1993, at column 553, I referred specifically to the "Agenda for Peace" and especially to paragraph 82. It raised the prospect of the world's concern if the principles of the charter were not seen to be applied consistently--if they were seen to be applied selectively--and how that might in some way lead to a lack of support, especially from the emerging countries, for the United Nations role in helping them to resolve their disputes. More importantly, I also asked the Foreign Secretary a number of questions about this country's former representative to the United Nations, Sir Anthony Parsons, who referred to the decision to impose a no-fly zone in the north of Iraq. At that time, Russia and China had abstained. I asked then, and I ask now, whether we are any nearer to defining our position in terms of the question posed by Sir Anthony Parsons when he commented on United Nations Security Council resolution 688. Can the Secretary of State for Defence tell us whether China and Russia, which abstained on that occasion on resolution 688, now accept our interpretation and our subsequent action based on that interpretation in both the north and the south of Iraq? It is important that we understand that. If we are, as paragraph 82 of the "Agenda for Peace" says, to appr their interpretation or their concerns in a particular area of the world. I would appreciate a response from the Secretary of State.

On the same theme, I refer to the comments made yesterday by the UN mediator on Bosnia, Thorvald Stoltenberg, when he called for 3,000 extra troops. He said that there was a shortage of basic equipment and communications facilities. Many hon. Members have argued that point in the House and have referred to the need for a military staffs committee. We have observed that when the UN is trying to deal with particular problems, such as Yugoslavia and Somalia, where different nations have supplied forces to the UN, there is clearly a need for a military staffs committee to control the operation. The participants in UN peacekeeping activities are clearly unable to communicate with each other.

As I said in a debate earlier this year, the example of Yugoslavia

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"cries out for a centralised structure as part of the United Nations peacekeeping effort based around a major signals unit and expanding to take in infantry, medical and supplies units".-- [Official Report, 23 February 1993 ; Vol. 219, c. 813.] The UN mediator in Bosnia has identified a difficulty with communications, as have hon. Members. Will the Secretary of State for Defence tell us if we are anywhere near establishing a centalised major signals unit to take care of this communications problem? There has been a great debate, on both sides of the House, about the whys, the wherefores, the rights and the wrongs of the Yugoslavian and the Bosnian conflict. More than ever, the public want to see a specific position taken by Britain. Whether people support Croatia, Serbia or the Muslim population in Bosnia-Herzogovina, they are looking for Britain to take some action, some lead.

We could adopt a slightly different position from that which has been urged. Given our experience in Bosnia, a course that we might consider as an alternative to the present situation is contained in international law which, if such a tragedy ever occurred in the future, we might be able to use as a starting point. The laws of war--the various rules and conventions that regulate armed conflict, whether internal or international--provide clear guidelines for the action to be taken by parties involved in the conflict and the role of third-party states. The Geneva convention fosters the right atmosphere and provides the best chance, on an equal footing, for all parties to the conflict to mitigate many of the horrors of the current war, while maintaining Britain's attitude of international legality and impartiality towards the conflict.

If we had tried using international law, it might well have worked because, in a series of meetings convened under the auspices of the International Committee of the Red Cross between 1991 and 1992, the various parties involved in the current conflict in the territory of the former Yugoslavia agreed to be bound by the relevant provisions of international humanitarian law. The combatants involved in the conflict accepted the principle that certain international recognised standards of behaviour could be maintained.

Although part of international humanitarian law, the war crimes tribunal established by the Security Council of the United Nations, in the absence of any other action taken in accordance with the convention, reflects a policy of despair on the part of the west. The implication is that the international community must wait for the war to run its terrible course before any international remedy can be offered.

The laws of war were conceived to find a legitimate and neutral role for parties and states not involved in the conflict while the fighting is ongoing. Not to attempt to prevent terrible violations against innocent civilians, and not to use the positive deterrent effect of protecting powers against all parties to the

conflict--without discrimination--is a needless failure about which many in the media, in public meetings and in the Chamber have railed against the Government and the Opposition. I urge the Foreign Secretary to consider the possibility of using protecting powers as a means of finding some way forward. That would seek to deal with the conflict as it develops and, if used properly, would give more protection to the population on the ground.

I welcome what was said by both the Foreign Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) about progress in the middle east. I am sure

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that all hon. Members will send their best wishes to the Palestinian and Israeli negotiators--whether they meet in Taba or elsewhere--and will wish their deliberations every success. Clearly, there are still hurdles to be overcome. From the viewpoint of those on the outside looking in and wishing to put pressure on the negotiators one of those hurdles is the holding of 11,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli gaols. It is a continuing, gnawing problem. I hope that when the Foreign Secretary visits the occupied territories in January to talk to both sides--as he suggested that he would--he will reinforce the need for the Israeli Government to perceive the benefit of releasing the prisoners as quickly as possible, and continuing to allow those who have been removed from the west bank and Gaza to return there as quickly as possible.

Both Prime Minister Rabin and Chairman Arafat face tremendous difficulties. They are not helped by the actions of Israeli settlers, or those of the militant Palestinians who are killing them. None the less, we must surely welcome Prime Minister Rabin's forthright statement about the settlers. He said that the Oslo accords "have enemies from the Palestinians who murdered a Jew merely because he was a Jew, and opponents from amongst the Jews who rioted and burnt the cars of Arabs merely because they were Arabs." We should also welcome last week's public condemnation by Yasser Arafat--the first ever--of the killing of an Israeli settler by Palestinians on the west bank.

Both these individuals are taking a courageous stand for peace, and they deserve our support. I welcome the Foreign Secretary's comments and hope that the Government will continue to press for peace in the middle east ; however--as many hon. Members on both sides of the House have pointed out-- peace will not come until the other parts of the jigsaw fall into place. One of those pieces, often referred to in the House, is the need to remove the Arab boycott.

As the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale pointed out, there are parallels to be drawn. I suggest that one can be drawn between the need for a lifting of the Arab boycott and the not too dissimilar situation that we have watched developing in South Africa, culminating in yesterday's successful conclusion of arrangements for a new constitution. It is not just a question of the Arab boycott, however : the peace process itself cannot move forward without movement on the Syrian-Israeli conflict.

President Assad of Syria has made it clear that he intends to stand firmly behind the Madrid conference's principle of complete Israeli withdrawal from all occupied Arab land, according to United Nations resolutions 242 and 338. While President Assad stands firm, there is little likelihood that the Government of Lebanon will be prepared to move on either the peace talks or the Arab boycott.

The international community has clearly linked the gradual lifting of sanctions on South Africa to internal progress achieved through dialogue-- against a background of daily violence--on a range of political and humanitarian issues. That is the context in which we should discuss the Arab boycott. As the dialogue proceeds between Israelis and Syrians--and, most important, between Israelis and Lebanese, Israelis and Palestinians and Israelis and Jordanians--and as the various humanitarian and political pressures are relieved, it is more

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likely that other Arab countries will be willing to lift the boycott. Before I leave the subject of the middle east, may I say that all hon. Members must be pleased with the results of the recent elections in Jordan. Those have given King Hussein a stable background to re-enter the peace process which will be helpful to the final outcome in the middle east.

I will conclude by raising an issue that has not been raised so far in the debate. It is an issue that does not often get a mention in the House, but one on which the Foreign Office must spend more time in the coming Session to try to see how we can help. It is the subject of Cuba.

Recently, the all-party group on Cuba was addressed by Madame Isobel Allende, the Deputy Foreign Minister of Cuba. She outlined to the group a series of changes that were taking place in Cuba against the background of an economic boycott imposed by the United States. That boycott is expected to cost $800 million this year, as a burden on the Cuban economy. She spoke about an emergency plan for the economy, the opening up of Cuba to foreign investment, the relaxation of currency controls, allowing Cubans to spend foreign currency that they have earned, allowing self-employment in Cuba, leasing land for co-operatives, and decentralising decision-making, along with tax reforms.

I know that many hon. Members will still talk about the commitment of Cuba to maintaining its independence, sovereignty and socialist principles as being an obstacle which has to be overcome. Unless we start to talk to the Cubans and recognise that there is movement on the ground, we cannot claim to be doing as much as we can. I would recommend to the Foreign Office, and specifically to the Foreign Secretary, that an even greater interest be taken in Cuba so that we may help that process along. When we come to the Queen's Speech next year, we may then be able to say that we have helped the democratisation of Cuba and helped the people of that country to move forward. We may be able to say that that has helped peace in that part of the world.

Several hon. Members rose --

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. Before I call the next hon. Member to speak, I will say that there are still a number of hon. Members who wish to speak. I hope that those whom I call in a short time will bear that in mind, so that all hon. Members may be able to speak.

12.17 pm

Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside) : It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross). He is the chairman of the Labour party foreign affairs committee, and hence is my counterpart. I could not say that I agreed with everything that the hon. Gentleman has said this morning. There have been other moments of discord in the House as hon. Members disagree across it, but I think that this is the place to have disagreements on issues which concern foreign affairs and defence. As we all know, it is important that when we go abroad to visit the countries that we are debating today we speak with one voice, and that that one voice is for Britain.

I was interested in the speech of the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), and

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I hope that the Boundary Commission finds a shorter name for his constituency following its reforms. I disagree with him on his request for specific debates on both foreign affairs and defence on the Queen's Speech.

I have made the point for some time that I think our debates on defence matters--I am sorry that defence has taken so little time this morning, as hon. Members have concentrated on foreign affairs--should be opened by the Foreign Secretary. Today, we have an almost unique opportunity to hear first from the Foreign Secretary about the international scene and the identification of Britain's international interests. During the winding-up speech, we will hear from the Secretary of State for Defence, who will no doubt tell us how the United Kingdom will fulfil its obligations as set out by the Foreign Secretary.

I was delighted to read in the Gracious Speech that Her Majesty's Government attach the highest importance to national security, to maintaining full support for NATO, to securing NATO's adaptation to the changing security environment and to continuing to develop the operational role of the Western European Union. Let me sound a note of caution, though. It is most important that we do not try to see in the development of the WEU an alternative to NATO. It has been suggested that the WEU might try to duplicate or replicate what NATO is already doing. The North Atlantic Alliance is fundamental to this nation's security and it is important that nothing should be done to undermine it, especially bearing in mind the current tendency of the United States to adopt a slightly isolationist stance. If the WEU is to develop, it is important that it should develop as the European pillar of the North Atlantic Alliance ; that is the right way forward.

I also welcome the suggestion in the Queen's Speech that we should widen rather than deepen the European Community. It is extremely interesting that countries in eastern Europe, which were for so long under the yoke of communism or of imperial powers such as the Austro-Hungarian empire and which have fought for so long for their independence and freedom, now find that independence rather discomfiting. It is cold outside, and they want to come back in under the shelter of some supranational power. That is why they are keen to join the European Community. They are experiencing the cold realisation that independence means additional responsibility and that it is very uncomfortable to be alone in such a disordered world. They cannot wait to surrender some of their new-found sovereignty in order to gain security.

I welcome the Government's pledge to play a constructive role in strengthening the United Nations capacity to undertake peacekeeping and preventive action--in other words, to assist in implementing the Secretary- General's "Agenda for Peace". The United Nations is at last fulfilling the role for which it was designed in 1945, and a very difficult task that will be. There are 26 conflicts going on in the world--admittedly most of them civil wars rather than wars between states--and there are a further 47 flashpoints at which conflagrations could break out at any time. The other day, I saw a map of the world with an overlay identifying those places. It showed that the areas where there is conflict and the risk of conflict coincide precisely with areas of overpopulation. During this debate alone, the world's population of 5 billion will undergo a net increase of some 60,000. A second overlay showed that the areas of conflict and where war is likely are areas that are short of water. We

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have heard much about the ways in which we can diversify and turn swords into ploughshares, so, taken to its logical conclusion, that means that, logically, we ought to halve our defence expenditure and spend all our money saved on boreholes, water purification plants and condoms. We would probably do more to promote world peace if we did that than we would by spending money on bullets and bombs. That is the logical conclusion, but I am afraid that things just do not work like that.

We must do both : we must continue to maintain our defence expenditure and, hence, our ability to fulfil our obligations as set out in the defence White Paper, but we must not forget that we have an obligation to maintain our ODA funding because overseas aid also has important security implications. I was pleased, therefore, that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary opened the debate and set out our obligations world wide.

As a leader of the free world and as a member of the United Nations Security Council, we have important obligations. We are a trading nation, and the Foreign Secretary gave some examples world wide where our trade is increasing rapidly. He mentioned India and the far east. There is a steady worldwide build-up in our trade. That must be protected. We are also an ex- colonial power and, therefore, we understand world affairs, probably better than any other country. We are good at diplomacy and, as we have seen from the activities of our troops in the former Yugoslavia, we are particularly good at fulfilling the military roles that the United Nations is identifying for us. We must ensure that we continue to fulfil those roles world wide.

The defence White Paper, which we debated on our first two days back after the summer recess, set out our security objectives in the form of three roles : first, the defence of the homeland and our dependent territories ; secondly, our obligations to our allies within, for instance, NATO and the Western European Union ; and thirdly our wider security tasks--in other words operations under the UN banner.

Unfortunately, we set aside no resources in terms of equipment and manpower to fulfil role 3. If we want to undertake any of those roles, and I think that I am quoting correctly the words of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, we must not undertake what we cannot deliver. There will be times when we shall want to do things and we shall have to take troops and equipment from elsewhere. At the moment, we can only fulfil role 3 in the wider world by taking resources and manpower from roles 1 and 2. I do not think that that is right, because, as we know, fulfilling roles 1 and 2 is already leaving our armed forces over-stretched.

I do not think that we shall see any further reinstatement of cuts in Army manpower ; such reinstatement as there has been was extremely welcome. But what we could see is another way of creating greater flexibility in our armed forces so that we can find the manpower and resources necessary at short notice to meet international obligations under role 3. I refer, of course, to our reserve forces.

There are more than a quarter of a million men and women in the Army reserves--some 190,000 are Army regular reserves, and 68,000 are in the Territorial Army. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) who has the Adjournment debate, which is to follow. If I can catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I hope that I can intervene briefly towards the end of his speech.

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Regular reservists are individuals and are ex-enlisted personnel. The Territorial Army has 58 units and that is a fundamental difference. On the whole, the regular reserves do not train. There is an obligation on some of them to do so, but that is rarely enforced. On the other hand, the Territorial Army regularly train. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), when Secretary of State for Defence, published in 1992 a White Paper entitled "The Future of Britain's Reserve Forces", which showed the extremely complex system of regular reserves that we have at present. He proposed a new category--he called them "ever-ready" reservists--to reinforce the regular Army when required. I think that the two-tier structure that he was outlining was far too complicated. I was also interested to note that in that document he hardly ever mentioned the Territorial Army.

I am pleased to say that, in October this year, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State published a further document, entitled "Britain's Reserve Forces : A Framework for the Future" in which he saw a greater role for the development of reserves both in war and peacetime. He envisaged a higher readiness reserve--HRR--of between 3,000 and 5,000 men.

The problem is that some individual reservists, as these will be, are meant to train, but they do not. The TA should therefore be our first line of reserve and not the last line. Members of the TA are better trained. As a rule, they are up to date, properly equipped and are in units instead of being individuals. One cannot over-emphasise the importance of the cap badge in maintaining morale.

Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) : To underline my hon. Friend's point about the TA, it comprises units. The fundamental difference between the system that works so well for the national guard in America and in Australia is that the call out for their reserves is by unit. Our concept of the higher readiness reserve of selected individual volunteers--cherry picking as the Americans call it--undermines the structure of territorial organisations.

Mr. Colvin : I am obliged to my hon. Friend. This is going to look like a double act before we finish today. I hope that it does not become that. However, I believe that there is a large measure of support in the House for what I have said today.

The TA gives us extremely good value. It costs one sixth of the cost of a regular soldier to maintain a TA soldier. The TA has already faced considerable cuts. I know that the Secretary of State tried to be even handed, but he was not. The TA is down 30 per cent., while the regular Army has decreased by only 25 per cent. I believe that there is a very good case for saying that if we are to cut the regular Army, we should increase the TA and not cut it.

The regular Army is also facing a recruitment problem. That problem is not dictated by the Treasury or the Secretary of State. It is dictated largely by morale. As a result of emergency tours in Northern Ireland, the impact of having to go to Northern Ireland for six months every year--six months on tour, six months off and then six months back--is having a marked effect on the morale of soldiers. That is not because they do not want to go. They enjoy it. My son served in Northern Ireland and I know that he enjoyed it. However, such tours have an impact on

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wives, families and loved ones back home and that immediately has a depressing effect on morale. That is something we must overcome. It is also interesting to note how the TA is prepared to undertake operations abroad. Some operations have been to the former Yugoslavia. I was very interested to see the Canadian troops in Cyprus when I visited that country with the Defence Select Committee earlier this year. The Canadians have taken part in 24 of the 25 UN peacekeeping operations since the end of the second world war. Many of the Canadian troops in Cyprus were the equivalent of our TA. That proves that TA personnel can be sent abroad if the organisation is right.

The thrust of my argument is that the TA should provide the first line of reserves for the Army. Those who once served as regulars and have retired or have been made redundant but are still on the books should be the second line of reserve. Those people are often difficult to find if they are required for call up. They probably need to be forced to rejoin the colours and that makes them very reluctant reservists.

I have always had a special interest in the Brigade of Guards, as I served as a Grenadier guardsman. The Brigade of Guards has never had a TA battalion. There have been bogus arguments that the Household brigades are not TA regiments. However, what are the Welsh Guards if they are not a territorial regiment? The Welsh Guards are based on part of the geography of this country. The Welsh Guards were originally the 6th battalion of the Grenadier Guards. They were recruited from the miners of south Wales. During the first world war, the Prince of Wales decided that there should be a regiment of Welsh guards, so the 6th battalion of the Grenadier Guards took their grenades from their caps and put on leeks instead. What are the Scots Guards if they are not a geographically national regiment? The argument that the Brigade of Guards are not territorial in the geographical sense is totally bogus.

The Brigade of Guards now faces cuts. Three battalions are to go. The Scots Guards, Grenadier Guards and the Coldstream Guards each lose a battalion. Those battalions will then go into what is known as suspended animation. I do not understand why those three battalions could not become territorial battalions based in London and therefore also available to do public duties.

At the Queen's birthday parade this year, we saw the impact of reducing the number of guards from eight to five. I dare say that if I were marched on to the Horseguards Parade now I would remember what to do. I might not remember all the words of command, but sword drill has not changed in the same way as rifle drill has changed. There would be no difficulty in finding territorials within the Brigade of Guards to take part in the Queen's birthday parade and other ceremonials, and they would enjoy doing so.

Another brigade is facing the axe, and that is the Gurkhas. They have been halved from six to three battalions. Those Nepalese soldiers are superb in peace and war. They are loyal to a distant sovereign power, they are friendly, they are apolitical and they are very reliable--in fact, they are mercenaries. What better battalions to act as United Nations peacekeeping forces? They have been in operation on behalf of the United Nations in Cyprus and in Cambodia where they have done extremely well.

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What is the Government's response to calls by Sir Philip Goodhart, a former hon. Member for Beckenham, and Field Marshal Lord Bramall to give the Gurkhas a worldwide role rather than cutting their strength in half? If a United Nations force is required, either a standing army or a standby army, why not designate to the United Nations the three remaining Gurkha battalions, and why not resurrect the other three Gurkha battalions as a standby force?

I readily support this refreshingly short Queen's Speech--less government, I am afraid without lower taxes, but that is the price of a world recession. No doubt taxes will come down still further in due course. I welcome Britain's continuing international commitments and the Government's priority to the defence of the realm and to our interests at home and abroad. To meet those security commitments, we need greater flexibility in our armed forces. I have suggested how some of that might be achieved in the Army in spite of cuts in the regular establishment. I very much look forward to hearing the response of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

12.37 pm

Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) : I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) for his helpful response to my intervention regarding the Turkish republic of northern Cyprus. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will continue to increase their recognition of the sterling efforts being made by the Government of the Turkish republic of northern Cyprus, particularly by President Denktash, to make progress towards an honourable settlement of the difficulties of that island. Recent ministerial contacts with Mr. Denktash have been helpful. I hope that Her Majesty's Government and others will recognise that the Greek Government and the Greek Cypriot administration could do more to alleviate Turkish Cypriots' fear that they are still under the real threat of violence from powerful and well-equipped Greek Cypriot forces backed up by Greek regulars who are in the south of the island in considerable numbers. The onus to make progress must not be placed solely on the minority community who have suffered greatly in the past.

The hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross) was too simplistic when he asserted without qualification the single island thesis. One cannot ignore the present de facto position or the justifiable concerns of the minority, and I hope that the Government will not be tempted to do so.

I deal now with another island, one that I know a great deal better. The right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) articulated an undeniable and common-sense case for the defeat of terrorism. His enunciation of a two- track approach to the difficulties facing Northern Ireland was most welcome. He expressed the hope that London and Dublin were concentrating on how the godfathers could be brought to book. I regret to have to tell him that that subject does not occupy much of the discussion between the two Governments. The question of the long-serving godfathers--the command and control structure of paramilitary organisations--must be dealt with sooner or later, but I believe that it can be dealt with only by the implementation of executive detention.

During the first day's debate on the Queen's Speech, the Prime Minister outlined at some length what the

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