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That advice was based, I believe, on the advice of Kate Jennings, who worked in the Minister's private office at the Department of the Environment. He has now taken her to the Welsh Office. I suggest that he has a long chat with his adviser, and if he follows the advice that she is giving his colleagues in England he will drop the reforms and drop them now.

9.42 pm

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. John Redwood) : It is a new idea for a wind-up speech from the Opposition to take the best lines from the Secretary of State's speech that they are attacking, but I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) for giving them even more air time than they have had in the past few days. Otherwise, it was a load of huffing and puffing from the hon. Gentleman that amounted to nothing. I can assure him that the Cabinet is fully aware of the needs of Wales and that, when it comes to the big issues, Wales is looked after, as it was with assisted area status, as it has been with objectives 2 and 5 status and as it will be in the Budget and the public expenditure statement. I tell the hon. Gentleman to stop huffing about those things and to watch what is going on, because there is good news for Wales in many of the statements that I deliver.

As for the hon. Gentleman's synthetic anger about the issues before the House, I ensured that all Members from Wales had all the important things that they needed for today's debate about boundaries and about the number of councillors. I shall come to the issue about which I did not release information, on timing.

Local government matters. It is because the Government believe that it matters that they are introducing Bills to reorganise the structure of local government in Wales and Scotland-- [Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. Hon. Members know full well the rules of the House and it would seem that the Secretary of State is not giving way.

Mr. Redwood : Had the House left me a little time, I would give way. I normally do so, but there is not enough time if I wish to tell the House what it needs to know.

The Government are introducing Bills to reorganise the structure of local government in Wales and Scotland and are well advanced in reorganising the structure of local government in England. Most of the debate in the past two and a half years has focused on boundaries, and the boundaries issue has certainly dominated my postbag in recent months. I wish to establish a structure of local government in Wales that, as far as possible, is based on the traditional areas with which people identify.

Mr. Alex Carlile : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During a debate that was intended to be about Scottish and Welsh local government reform, three Conservative Back Benchers from English constituencies have spent over one hour talking about issues which have nothing to do with the subject. As a result of that, some hon. Members from Scotland and from Wales were not called to speak. In those circumstances, is it not right that a Minister should give way to answer a short question on a factual issue which would take 30 seconds?

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Madam Deputy Speaker : If the hon. Members to whom the hon. Gentleman refers had been out of order, they would have been stopped by the Chair. I have to inform the hon. Gentleman that although certain subjects are raised for debate each day, they are not exclusive. It is perfectly in order to raise other subjects, provided that they relate to the Queen's Speech.

Mr. Redwood : If hon. Members let me tell them what they wish to know, I will give way if time permits.

In the old counties of Dyfed and Newport, for example, precise boundaries seem to be no longer an issue.

Mr. Alex Carlile : On a different point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I said earlier that three hon. Membert hon. Members who speak in a debate should be in the Chamber for the winding-up speech? Where are the other two hon. Members?

Madam Deputy Speaker : That is not a point of order for the Chair.

Mr. Redwood : People in Wales would like to hear what I have to say. I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will now permit me to continue.

Mr. Alex Carlile : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move, That strangers do withdraw.

Notice being taken that strangers were present, Madam Deputy Speaker,-- pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 (Withdrawal of Strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw :--

The House proceeded to a Division --

Mr. Richards (seated and covered) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Members of the House and the people of Wales were expecting an important speech from the Secretary of State for Wales this evening. That has been denied them by a disgraceful tactic by a Liberal Democrat Member, a part-time Member of the House known as the moonlighting Member for Montgomery. When will the people of Wales and Members of Parliament hear the important statement by the Secretary of State for Wales on the reform of local government?

Madam Deputy Speaker : That is not a matter for the Chair, but I inform the hon. Member that if the Secretary of State still has the floor at 10 o'clock, it will be open to him to continue his speech when the debate is resumed tomorrow, if he chooses to do so.

Mr. Riddick (seated and covered) : Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Throughout the debate, we have heard demands from Opposition Members that the Secretary of State for Wales give details tonight of the changes that he intends to make to some of the boundaries. Is it not a disgrace that the Liberal Democrats have ensured that that cannot take place?

On a further point of order--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I have already said that the matter is not a point of order for the Chair.

Mr. Riddick : Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. It is not a point of order, so it cannot be continued.

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Mr. Riddick : On a completely new point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the last Session of Parliament, during the passage of the Railways Bill through the House, we saw some disgraceful scenes when Labour Opposition Members disrupted Parliament. We are now seeing Liberal Democrat Members disrupting this Session of Parliament. What can you do from the Chair to stop such disruptive tactics?

Madam Deputy Speaker : The hon. Member is no more raising a point of order now than he was earlier. It is not a point of order for the Chair. It may be a point of substance, but it is not a point of order.

The House having divided : Ayes 10, Noes 91.

Division No. 1] [9.46 pm

AYES

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Dafis, Cynog

Ewing, Mrs Margaret

Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

Kirkwood, Archy

Marek, Dr John

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

Salmond, Alex

Welsh, Andrew

Wigley, Dafydd

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones and

Mr. James Wallace.

NOES

Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainger, Nick

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Arbuthnot, James

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Barnes, Harry

Bates, Michael

Beggs, Roy

Bermingham, Gerald

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Bowis, John

Chisholm, Malcolm

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Congdon, David

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Cousins, Jim

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Dewar, Donald

Dicks, Terry

Dixon, Don

Donohoe, Brian H.

Etherington, Bill

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Flynn, Paul

Foulkes, George

French, Douglas

Fry, Peter

Fyfe, Maria

Gallie, Phil

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Gunnell, John

Hain, Peter

Hanson, David

Hinchliffe, David

Home Robertson, John

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)

Kilfedder, Sir James

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lang, Rt Hon Ian

Lawrence, Sir Ivan

Lewis, Terry

McCartney, Ian

McLeish, Henry

McMaster, Gordon

Mahon, Alice

Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

Maxton, John

Meale, Alan

Morgan, Rhodri

Murphy, Paul

Nicholls, Patrick

O'Neill, Martin

Paice, James

Pike, Peter L.

Redwood, Rt Hon John

Richards, Rod

Riddick, Graham

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